Military Role at Waco....a Looonnnggg one! : LUSENET : Freedom! self reliance : One Thread

Another of the series of deleted posts...

How the Military is being used against citizens of this country...NOT fantasy.

Here are a number of articles and excerpts from articles delineating just such offenses. The major thing that I would like to stress here is that I am NOT against the servicemen, but against their misuse and the abuses the Federal Government is perpetrating upon them. I am certain that most feel they are doing a noble thing by being in the service. However, a paycheck and retirement plan from a government run amock is not worth the destruction of the Constitution nor the lives of those involved. This means you and your kids, grandkids, and everyone who will not lick the shiny boot of the New World Order.


Contrary to public statements made in recent days, Attorney General Janet Reno and FBI officials planned the final deadly assault on the Branch Davidian church in Waco, Texas, with top officers of the US Army's Delta Force, according to classified documents obtained through the Freedom of Information Act and Special Forces sources.

The FBI actually requested that Special Forces Delta Force operatives consult with them, be present on the scene and maintain equipment in preparation for a resolution of the 1993 51-day standoff that resulted in a fire that killed 74 civilians including many children, according to the documents and a knowledgeable military source......

Meanwhile, the documented information WorldNetDaily has obtained reveals that not only did Reno actively seek involvement by Delta Force, but she was warned at one meeting she attended with the FBI, Delta Force Colonel William "Jerry" Boykin and Webster Hubbell that the use of CS tear gas would have a variety of effects, one of which would be "Some people would panic, Quote: "mothers may run off and leave infants."

The FBI's admission just days ago that pyrotechnic tear-gas canisters "may have been used" was an abrupt reversal of a six-year denial that its agents used anything capable of sparking a fire at the compound. The Delta Force document detailing the Delta Force/Reno/FBI meeting notes that when Reno asked Delta Force officers for their "assessment" of the plan, she was told: "This was not a military operation and could not be assessed as such. We explained that the situation was not one that we had ever encountered and that the Rules of Engagement for the FBI were substantially different than for a military operation. [name redacted] stated, "We can't grade your paper," as a way of explaining our position." ........

Keith Idema,( Special Forces and Special Operations units from 1975 to 1992) helped train hostage rescue team personnel for both Delta Force and the FBI and who spoke just days ago to a Delta Force commando present at the final tear-gas assault, says this statement shows how Delta Force cringed over getting involved at Waco. "I believe that what the Delta Force colonel meant was that he didn't want to be directly involved in it[Waco]; did not want to be dragged into it. Delta Force operators, and Task Force 160 operators continually cautioned the FBI against attempting an "open air assault" on the target, and stated emphatically that they did not want to be involved in firing on or assaulting American civilians," Idema said. "These official and unofficial comments went ignored and, in fact, one Special Operations Officer was threatened with court-martial if he continued to protest," Idema added.

At another point in the document, Delta Force personnel explained to Reno that Special Forces encounters are almost always militaristic and involve outright enemies who are often heavily armed. Delta Force explained that their standard modus operandi was, "The principles of surprise, speed and violence of action [that] were essential to any operation. [redacted] stated that momentum should be maintained and that ground gained should not be relinquished." Idema says "violence of action" usually means "the killing of all hostiles."

With his trained eye, Idema says he can tell that devices seen in pictures from Waco released this week by the Texas Department of Public Safety have been mistakenly identified by the department as gun silencers and suppressors belonging to David Koresh and his followers which were found inside the compound after the fire. Idema says they are actually concussion grenades manufactured by a company, Defense Technology, and purchased by the FBI.

Idema also says the bright light seen on video footage as flashing inside the building moments before the fire broke out have been misidentified as a fire started by Branch Davidian leader David Koresh, when, in fact, to the trained eye of a Special Forces explosive expert it is unmistakably the flash caused by a "concussion grenade" that has been lobbed inside the compound. A concussion grenade uses a brilliant flash and loud bang to render an enemy in its vicinity blind, deaf and immobile for a brief period during which commandos can overpower them. Such grenades should be used only for military purposes and were wholly inappropriate, if not illegal to be used in a situation involving women and children -- and any situation where potentially inflammable tear gas was still hanging in the air, the former Special Forces operative said.

Charges that the FBI used incendiary grenades which may have caused the fire were dismissed by Reno. For six years, since the assault on April 19, 1993, until six days ago, Reno maintained that no military weapons were used. When a report from Texas DPS forced her to admit that some might have been used, she still dismissed any possibility that they could have caused the fire, stating that they were used in the early morning hours before the fire began. According to Idema, the FBI was taking an ill-advised chance using a military CS tear gas grenade at any time knowing that, unlike the kind of tear gas used in civilian situations, this type leaves a vapor that hangs in the air for a longer period of time and can ignite under certain circumstances.

The concussion grenades and military fuses he says were used moments before the fire broke out could have ignited the lingering tear gas vapors and started the fire. Idema also points out that other photographs released clearly show an FBI agent with a .50-caliber Browning machine gun next to his leg.

Such weapons are to be used only against armored equipment and weapons, certainly not civilians, says Idema.

"Why were they there?" he asks. "Koresh didn't have any tanks or helicopters, or APCs. The Geneva Convention states that these weapons are never to be used in an anti-personnel role."

Another one......

Although the FBI and other federal officials have tried to justify their actions, Brannon said there is no justification and believes his case will be an easy one to win.

The FBI should know "you don't ever torture a baby for any reason, however noble it may be," he said. "You don't get to torture a baby to save your life. We don't pay you to torture babies, and that's what you did there, and you knew you did it, and you advertised you did it, and you bragged that you did it, and you said, 'Oh, but we didn't think it would hurt them much.'

"That's not the worst thing you said. The other thing you said was, 'Well, all their parents have to do is bring them out, so don't blame us.' The translation is, if you have bad parents in this country, and you're a little kid, law enforcement gets to torture you because they don't like your parents.

"Ain't that a hell of a note for the government to take! Nobody says you get to torture babies in America -- period. Not for any reason. Not for any purpose," stated Brannon.

The FBI continues to maintain its claim of innocence in the sworn depositions, said Brannon, still maintaining that no government guns were fired that fateful day. Government video footage seems to show gunfire, but official FBI sources have disputed those claims, even though government experts were used to analyze the footage. WorldNetDaily recently reported on efforts to dispute those claims.

Brannon initially had difficulty getting the government to admit that the Delta Force exists. Once an agreement was reached that he could depose members of the elite fighting team, a series of strict rules was put in place.

Brannon is not permitted to know the names of the Delta Force members being deposed, or even to see them. They are kept behind a screen for "national security" reasons.

No recordings of the interviews are permitted on video or audiotape. The only record of the deposition is by a court stenographer.

Brannon said the process is worse than the amnesia of the FBI agents. After he asks questions, the Delta Force members are most often directed by government attorneys not to answer, he said.

"I want the helicopter pilots. I want the snipers -- all of them. I want to see if they can all tell the same lies. I don't think they're that good. I might get real lucky and run across one or two of them who is willing under oath -- when they have to tell the truth -- [to] tell the truth. Maybe I'll find some that won't lie for them. I believe the truth won't hurt my side. Not out of what I've seen up to now," Brannon said.

Since there is no judge present during the questioning, Brannon is left with no means to compel the witnesses to answer. Indeed, government attorneys direct Delta Force members not to respond to most of Brannon's questions.

Despite the fact that the government admits to the presence of only three Delta Force members at Waco, Brannon claims there were at least 10.

"The 10 have been traced on their travel vouchers. They came and went during the 51-day siege at Waco. Sometimes there were only three from that group present at one time," Brannon explained. He hopes eventually to get depositions from all of them.

Another one!!!!!!


The government has been using what Brannon considers stalling tactics in complying with court orders to produce evidence, witnesses and depositions. As a result, the court issued an order in November -- after the government asked for an extension of time -- which said, in part: "The court is not unmindful that the government waits not only until the last day, but until the last minute to respond to every order this court has issued. That practice causes the court to be suspect of the government's desire to comply with its orders."

"If Clinton did what I think he did, if I can ever prove it, I think he gave the okay to the Delta Force to go in there and help those guys. I think he said, 'They don't know what they're doing. Y'all go in there and take care of it.' Or words to that effect," said Brannon.

When the court sent an order to all federal agencies requesting copies of all Waco-related documents, the White House refused, claiming "executive privilege."

"That's one of those things where you take the Fifth Amendment and everyone in the world knows you're guilty," said Brannon. "If you're going to claim executive privilege, it's something you don't want the public to know you did."

New military unit for domestic deployment Cohen says Americans should 'welcome' troops on home soil

By Jon E. Dougherty 1999

Critics are denouncing recent congressional changes to the Posse Comitatus Act that will allow a broader use of U.S. military forces in a domestic law enforcement role including a new unit for deployment in assisting civilian officers during a terrorist attack.

The new command, established Oct. 7 in Norfolk, Va., will be called the U.S. Joint Forces Command, and replaces the former U.S. Atlantic Command. At a ceremony commemorating the new unit, Defense Secretary William Cohen told participants the American people shouldn't fear the potential of seeing U.S. military forces on the streets of U.S. cities.....

In opposing the measure, critics cite the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act, which prohibits federal troops from participating in domestic law enforcement activities under most circumstances. With the concern over domestic terrorism rising since the World Trade Center bombing and numerous incidences of cyber-attacks on U.S. defense and financial institutions, the Clinton administration has begun to relax some of those restrictions.

In July, WorldNetDaily reported the new measures would end the requirement for local law agencies to reimburse the federal government for any local use of military equipment, as well as enable the Department of Defense to deploy military troops in cases of anticipated or actual terrorist attacks.....

Since the Waco debacle in 1993, when federal law officers and military personnel assaulted a church community resulting in the deaths of over 80 men, women and children, Kopel said the federal government has been "eroding the protections contained in the Posse Comitatus Act." .... Secretary Cohen told reporters last week that federal law will not be violated because the military would only respond if requested.

"Soldiers are not equipped, by training or temperament, to enforce the laws with proper regard for civil and constitutional rights," he said. "They're trained to kill the enemy."

-- Doreen (, April 11, 2001


Well its about time some of this came out... I am sure there is a lot more. My biggest problem was that this was all over something that should have been no one's business but the people in the compound.

It happened again just recently in a church - I forget where - but it was in the news too... Instead of killing them, they took all the kids away from their parents and put them in foster homes... Now THERE'S a solution for you!!!! Going from 'bad' to WORSE... Its going to court. They want the minister to stop preaching the things he was and promise never to do it again, and the parents are up on charges of child abuse. Maybe they went too far, I don't know. BUT it is NOT anyone's business but their own.

Since the time of the killings in Waco, our PARENTAL rights, as well as our rights to bear arms have been severely affected. I know those aren't the only ones, but those are two of the real biggies.

Funny, isn't it, that the parent's of the kids who shoot others are expected to bear the brunt of the guilt and responsibility, but are not allowed BY LAW to discipline their children... Also funny that if it isn't the parents that are blamed it is the teachers, who are so afraid of lawsuits they practically can't even TALK to kids anymore...

Nobody talks about the fact that these kids used TEASING as an excuse for cold-blooded murder. Nobody talks about the fact that most of them did NOT get their weapons from their parents. The kid at Columbine was furnished at least partly by an adult who was not related... I would venture that most of them were. All use the same excuses... What are we breeding in this country??? Who taught them that murder was an acceptable response for teasing?

Doreen - I was already scared over some of these things... reading this takes that feeling to all new levels. Guess I am just prone to paranoia......... I was always kinda strange anyway.....

-- Sue Diederich (, April 12, 2001.

-- quote Such weapons are to be used only against armored equipment and weapons, certainly not civilians, says Idema.

"Why were they there?" he asks. "Koresh didn't have any tanks or helicopters, or APCs. The Geneva Convention states that these weapons are never to be used in an anti-personnel role." -- end quote

Just to clarify, the Geneva Convention states no such thing. That's an old urban myth.


-- Vlad Andreev (, April 03, 2003.

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