Have you ever seen Gundam Wing? Well if you have then you might see what I'm about to point out, there is a character who plays out somewhat similar to Trevor, Tres Cush Renada. They both throw themseves at the leadership of people for the good of people, without respecting the people enough to tell them what they have planned. They have the civs best intrests in mind, but go about in sneaky, immoral ways. Maybe I watch too many cartoons? I am quite sure that the real world works this way, like I don't suppose anyone at the UN says, "lets ruin people and steal their freedom." They probably think that they are doing what is best for us, the wayward and easily frightened masses. I used to think(quite resently) that the world was run by evil. Now I think that some leader, CEOs and the like may just be slightly misguided. Forgive a president who proposes a absurd tax cut for he knows not a better way. Every time I think about it, they did such a fantastic job with Trevor that it blows my mind. No common consceince with his fellow man, damn thats prophesy.

-- Mark (hammerofthehorse@BigPoppaPump.zzn.com), April 19, 2001

Answers

I wouldn't want to bring to much politics onto this board but you bring up a good point Mark. I believe there are people in power motivated solely by thier ego, greed, and ambition but thats not what your talking about. Is much of our leadership really stupid enough to think that limiting our freedom is what's best for us? Some of them most likely are. In the US both democrates and republicans think they are doing whats in the best interest of the civilian population but which is really making a positive difference is certainly a matter of opinion! Personally I think neither but I won't get into that here.

-- Jack (eashtonusa@netscape.net), April 19, 2001.

I just watched the most shameful event on the news, are you familiar with the "Summit of the Americas" its is by and large a trade summit. It will also cover various other ideas like how genetics will be covered in North America. It is taking place in Quebec City, and they have created a very tiny police state within the city. Over a several block area surrounding the summit building they have constructed a chain-link and concrete fence. If you live in that portion of the city you need a special pass to get in, nobody without a pass is allowed in, this is not private property here, public property, in a supposed free country. They say they fear violent protest, its seems as thought the machine will rage on with or without the consent of the people. It like the footage we used to see about Russia, police patroling the streets in masses. Wait for saturday or tommorow when the big protests hit. So what do think will Brengna ever tear down the wall? Will this weekend be littered with Cibyls? All I know is that Peter Knew his buisness.

I hate to be huge, downer but are we only free as long as we don't mind the confines of our cage?

-- (hammerofthehorse@BigPoppaPump.zzn.com), April 19, 2001.

We're only caged as long as we vote for people who wish to restrict our freedom. Your refering to Canada but I wouldn't doubt that something like that could happen here in the United States. Your right that it does remind you of news footage coming out of Romania or Russia during the 80's or late 90's. I'm all for the free market but this is rediculas.

-- Jack (eashtonusa@netscape.net), April 19, 2001.

Of course it could happen in the states, I've read that Bill Clinton controlled a magority, of not only your votes, but the Arkansas drug trade. Rodger Clinton shouldn't have been the only one arrested on drug charges, his brother was selling the stuff. This guy is the ruling class, cocaine baron, and president. A very complete story on this was to be run in the Washington Post in january 1995, they debated it for 11 weeks, had lawyers went through it line by line. It was all set and ready to be printed. Then it was suddenly pulled by the managing editor. Seems a little odd doesn't it. You want to talk greed and ego this is your man. No matter how bad anything you hear looks man the truth is worse and so much harder to hear. This is slightly different. Clinton=Clavius, "Are you sure sir, these are drug tafficers, wetworkers?" "Yes by locking them up Trevor has shut down the flow of funds, not to mention they are some of my best freinds." Peter, Peter, Peter how could you have known?

-- Mark (hammerofthehorse@BigPoppaPump.zzn.com), April 19, 2001.

Did anyone watch cnn today? The first small riot of the weekend happened. They broke down the fence, in a small scetion then the riot police came, and I spent several hours watching these event unfold. Tear Gas so thick the cameras could see nothing else. Kids with communist symbols on their shirts being blodied and arrested, other kids playing frizbe. Man oh man, just wait by tomorrow there will be an estimated 25,000-30,000 protesters there were about 5000 today. I know this has nothing at all to do with Aeon Flux but this is the real world. I hope all the educated folks here are watching. I feel sorry for the police, not the leaders. Stupid front line.

-- Mark (hammerofthehorse@BigPoppaPump.zzn.com), April 20, 2001.

It's unfortunate that life so often imitates art. Besides seeing hints of Bregna and Monica and their troubles in our lives, it's shocking how much this world (particularly the U.S.) is turning into Ayn Rand's future vision in Atlas Shrugged (for those of you that haven't read it. Beg, borrow, steal or buy a copy today. I promise it will be on eof the most eye-opening books you've ever read.)

-- Pixi (pixiness@yahoo.com), April 26, 2001.

I'm not very familair with Ann Rand, but I've been told she is quite good. The US right now is a safe place for you Americans. My theory is that you(everyone) get either evil, or misguided politicians you thank your stars have a dummy in the seat. George is not a terrible threat, he's just more of a guy, you can tell because his image is less than spotless. Well my take anyway. Please tell me a little about the "Fallen Atlas".

-- Valhalla (hammerofthehorse@BigPoppaPump.zzn.com), April 26, 2001.

Sorry, Atlas Shrugged. Please forgive me. Forgive me please.

-- (hammeroftehhorse@BigpoppaPump.zzn.com), April 26, 2001.

Atlas Shrugged is essentially a very plot driven political commentary on how we as human beings (particularly in the U.S.) all bend over backwards to the will of the most ignorant or most incapable members of business, industry and society in general. Doing things such as regulating the amount of steel any company is allowed to produce so that other inferior companies can still turn a profit even though they can't meet deadlines and they make inferior products. The responsibility shifts to the shoulders of the strong and intelligent who become the abused workhorses of the ignorant and incapable masses all under the notion that "It's not MY problem or responsibility. You can MAKE it work," regardless of how false that proves to be. The book does an excellent job of following these circumstances through to what the very likely end result would be. Great characters, fantastic dialogue, deep and thoughtful insight on the condition of the world we live in.

-- pixi (pixiness@yahoo.com), April 27, 2001.

I think that one(me) will look for and aquire that book.

-- (Hammerofthehorse@BigPoppaPump.zzn.com), April 27, 2001.

Funny thing that book, they were making fun of it on South Park last night. Twice in one day I heard of it, and never before. The universe works like that.

-- (hammerofthehorse@BigPoppaPump.zzn.com), April 28, 2001.

The Chicken fu**er episode - great episode! I think they may have been making a little bit more fun of how tons of teachers force 7th graders to read it when it's really not the easiest of reading or concepts to tackle (Or it could just be me not wanting to accept that some people didn't like atlas shrugged) Most likely it's a bit of both. Enjoy the book if you do read it!

-- pixi (pixiness@yahoo.com), May 01, 2001.

I'll be looking for it presently. I'll read it without someone forcing me to read it by having sex with chickens.

-- Mark (hammerofthehorse@BigPoppaPump.zzn.com), May 01, 2001.

Ayn Rand had some good ideas, but I don't agree with her general philosophy. The woman had a fetish for money and power. I don't see how she would be in favor of the WTO/Quebec protests.

-- Inukko (nadisrec@worldnet.att.net), May 02, 2001.

I would submit that the philosophy of Ayn Rand in Atlas wasn't money or power hungry. I think her philosophy was a statement that it's not wrong to want to be successful (either monetarily or power- wise). That in fact, it's the desire that some people have to be the best at what they do that improves society as a whole. If a person makes the best automobile that they can (best quality, most reliable, most efficient, etc.) Then we as members of society benefit by being able to buy a car that we can depend on. It's when someone wants success or power or money without putting forth the effort to compete with those who DO respect quality and personal achievement - it's us the consumer, the buyer, the marketplace that suffers with inferior products and services.

In that way, I think she wouldn't necessarily be in FAVOR of the WTO protests and the like but I think she would see it as a logical consequence of the way we've chosen to run our society. Which is the original statement brought up by Mark that our elected (or sometimes not elected) officials "think" they are doing what's best for everyone by saying "let's not let people/businessmen/industrialists be so successful that others can't compete." But in actuality what they are doing is opening up the marketplace (in many but not ALL incidents) to inferior products, services and workmanship, all in the name of "fairness."

I could go on and on about this, because I love the depth and significance of Rand's philosophy, but I won't. There are lots of people who get together (mostly on U.S. college campuses) specifically to discuss the philosophy of Ayn Rand. I've only been to one or two events myself, but I highly recommend them to anyone who happens upon them. They're fantastic discussions.

-- Pixi (pixiness@yahoo.com), May 02, 2001.

I honestly have no idea as to how, WTO affects quality of products, at least specifiacally. My real fear, other than the ever present OWN, is that is causes dependance. One country needs anouther to be successful. Although always true this "Free Trade" link the econemies of 2 respective countries so closely that they both absolutly must be working well for the people in the countries to see the benifits.

The other thing that makes me mistrust them is the constant lies that are spouted by its champions. They say its done so much for Mexico, well trade there has increased ALOT! More to the point the middle class there is shrinking, and the amount of people in poverty has picked up the slack, by increasing!

All I know is what can be a good wage somewhere can be a crappy wage elsewhere, A guy I used to know worked for a seed company. That seed company, Zeneca operates all around the world. They do lots of work in 3rd world countries where they can pay semi-skilled workers virtually nothing. This guy I knew always said, you can't just go to a country like that and pay people well, because it upsets the other buisinesses there. Does anybody see the logic in that? Large multi-billion dollar seed company is afraid to upset the market vendors. :(

I just plain don't trust the big money, did you know Mexico was sued because they tried to stop a company from dumping waste near the Rio Grande. That is just silly, domestic laws mean less and less with globalization.

-- (hammerofthehorse@BigPoppaPump.zzn.com), May 02, 2001.

Bleargh. Life has degenerated into blearily studying between blearily surfing the web (three more weeks until finals&graduation and I get to leave this stink-ridden hole once and for all!) Let's see. All this political talk has gone waaay over my head, as my major news source is The Onion, but I know Gundam Wing. I think it's pretty weak, because it tends to get mired in sentimental ca-ca, but it's still the best show in the Toonami lineup. South Park is one of the, like, four shows I ever watch on any sort of regular basis. *Note to self: go to library and check out that book.* Um, what else... Oh, I found another Really Cool Utena Site. It's this "If Other Directors Made Utena" list (whatta film buff.) Includes Peter Chung! http://monkeymouse.tripod.com/page_3.html

-- Frostbite a.k.a. Frosty the Snow Chick (mbkrooks@bellsouth.net), May 03, 2001.

Sentimental Ca-Ca is what made Gundam Wing great! I love when they do that. It's not how real people act, but dammit, we should. the only problem I've ever had with the show is that it glorfies the "One World Nation" and most of the characters are looking around for someone to tell them what to do. How many soldiers died, to save the Gundam Piolots, Zechs, Relina, etc. ? Lots, but the show is still really cool, even if its vision is somewhat blurry. :)

On a side note, I work at a grocery store. I was helping someone take their bags to her car. She says almost out of the blue(she heard me talking to someone else about politics), "They could eliminate alot of the skirmishing, if they got rid of the borders." I was very taken aback.

-- Mark (hammerofthehorse@BigPoppaPump.zzn.com), May 04, 2001.

I too will put in a good word for the Onion; it's like The Daily Show, only intelligent. That Utena list... LOL. Even better read the second time (why, oh why didn't I bookmark this?). I liked Lynch's Utena, although they should have added "Movie retells the events of the series, while explaining nothing" :)

-- Inukko (nadisrec@worldnet.att.net), May 04, 2001.

I think there are a lot of things in Gundam Wing, like the dialougues and monologues about the nature of war, which are insightful. But then there are a lot of story what-the-hells. There's no character chemistry and every "Hey! My Gundam is bigger than yours! Nuh-uh, MY Gundam is bigger than YOURS! Let's fight!" scene makes me cringe. My problem really is with the characters. With the exception of Treize, I just can't force myself to like any of them. I feel like Gundam Wing is like a gorgeous man who comes prematurely. Everytime you've got something good going, it turns right around and cops out. Utena's the same way. I think this is a product of a sort of "quantity over quality" mindset of Japanese animated TV. I mean, when you make forty half-hour episodes in the space of a year, how in-depth do you expect them to be? I don't even buy fansubs of AMine series anymore. If something sounds interesting, I just buy the movie.

-- Frostbite a.k.a. Frosty the Snow Chick (mbkrooks@bellsouth.net), May 04, 2001.

Re-tells the series while explaining nothing? That kind of describes the Utena Movie doesn't it? Heheh.

-- Frostbite a.k.a. Frosty the Snow Chick (mbkrooks@bellsouth.net), May 04, 2001.

One I'd like to see is Early Martin Scorsese's Shoujo Kakumei Utena: Anthy is a sympathetic loser who idolizes "King of Dueling" Utena. Touga wanders Ohtori Academy at night, looking for a way to get back to his dorm, while being harassed by Miki and the slightly insane Juri. Satan, in the form of Akio, tries to get Utena to sell her soul, but she refuses & is crucified. Half the characters are yaoi, but it's played for laughs. As is everything in the series. By the end, Touga is encased in a car, Utena becomes the Son Of God, and we're not sure if Anthy is a success or failure. Everyone overacts, and all the camera angles are really, really cool.

-- Inukko (nadisrec@worldnet.att.net), May 04, 2001.

Oops. Overlapping post syndrome.

-- Inukko (nadisrec@worldnet.att.net), May 04, 2001.

Don't get me wrong, though. I love Apocalypse of Utena. Some web zine dubbed it the best Japanese film of the year. I din't see many Japanese films that year, but I'd be pretty willing to agree.

-- Frostbite a.k.a. Frosty the Snow Chick (mbkrooks@bellsouth.net), May 04, 2001.

Oh, hey Inukko!

-- Frostbite a.k.a. Frosty the Snow Chick (mbkrooks@bellsouth.net), May 04, 2001.

I found the character is Gundam to be quite good, and just for the reasons you hate them. They are weak, fucked up, and very much at the will of ego. THey are real people they don't hardly ever do anything right. They seek to find meaning in the meaningless just like real people. With the exception of the Relina, and Katra no one really considers anybody but themselves. That angle fucks up at the end of the movie, when they stop killing.

-- Mark (hammerofthehorse@BigPoppaPump.zzn.com), May 07, 2001.

It's not the fact that they're self-centered that I don't like, it's that their exchanges and relationships with each other seem contrived. The writing feels dishonest and hokey a lot of the time.

-- Frostbite a.k.a. Frosty the Snow Chick (mbkrooks@bellsouth.net), May 07, 2001.

And I agree with popular opinion among fans that the Endless Waltz OVA is a pile of poopie. Oh, incidentally, I've read the first 100 pages of Atlas Shrugged. I like it but, i dunno, it's got that suspicious stink of propaganda.

-- Frostbite a.k.a. Frosty the Snow Chick (mbkrooks@bellsouth.net), May 07, 2001.

I read Anthem by Ayn Rand last year and I think I can see what your saying about her writting. However I guess any book that is trying to convince the reader of something could be considered propaganda...

-- Jack (easthonusa@netscape.net), May 07, 2001.

I've always enjoyed propaganda. Just realize what it is and then you can have fun with it. If you ever can get a hold of some cartoons from the war. Those make me laugh and laugh, I know its not the same as the Ayn Rand stuff but, Marky loves one sided opinions. Nothing does quite compare to watching daffy duck get shoved into a cannon by a german crow, then when the cannon fires he flies out holding american flags, lands next hitler and hits him in the head with a oversized cartoon mallet. Now I'm in a laughing mood.

-- Mark (hammerofthehorse@BigPoppaPump.zzn.com), May 08, 2001.

I define propoganda as taking an opinion and presenting it as indesputable fact. I just don't thinks it's art unless it aknowledges that humans are cast adrift in a sea of possibilities and viewpoints. "What is the truth..." and ect. Hey, speaking of Daffy, how come he and Bugs and the rest can shoot the crap out of each other with realistic guns, yet modern day cartoons can't? I remember reading somewhere that the only reason they could show guns in Batman: The Animated Series was because they were these old-timey tommy guns that nobody uses anymore. Where is THAT at?

-- Frostbite a.k.a. Frosty the Snow Chick (mbkrooks@bellsouth.net), May 08, 2001.

That isn't something I ever noticed, you know I'm thinking that "Gargoyles" is maybe the only "modern" north americancartoon where I saw someone shoot a real gun. spiderman used lasers everyone even the police had lasers! That is strange, I'm a little confused. Maybe it(propaganda) in and of itself isn't art, more to the point->I veiw it almost as a parody of itself. So I give it meaning that wasn't intended to have so I make my own art.

-- Markisgreatgiveusthechocolatecake (hammeroftehhorse@BigPoppaPump.zzn.com), May 08, 2001.

I'm anti-gun myself, on the basis that violent criminals don't have a real strong self-preservation instinct. Banning the bullet wouldn't get rid of violence, but it would create a palpable climate of anti-violence, something intellectual conservatives can't fathom. That said, I think taking guns out of cartoons is ridiculous. The motive is clear (political correctness after Columbine), but more to the point, kids should see some realistic violence! Hell, the Columbine kids played Quake... how realistic is that?

-- Inukko (nadisrec@worldnet.att.net), May 08, 2001.

Your right I just can't fathom that, although I do not enjoy being labeled "conservative". I don't know I'm maybe a little more exposed to guns than say the other people on this forum, I like guns they are cool, loud and powerful. I love shooting stuff! I don't get to do it alot but I do like guns, and it doesn't mean I kill people with them, nor do I threaten or lord them over people when I hold them, in fact every time I've used guns its been a social experience when guns are shared and fired in a sence of community. Lets see if you intellectual liberals can figure that one out.

Now columbine, don't blame Quake, or Doom, or the guns. The kids are a symtom of not a violent world but a, world in fear. People seem to trust each other less, I think that it breeds this kind of behaviour people tend to avoid bonds, so its easier to veiw them as the enemy. Now don't get me wrong the bullies were wrong for picking on them, and the shooters deserve full blame for their actions in the end. However, it is often the weakest link who shows us first the folly of our ways. Like the birds they used to take into mine shafts, if the bird dies, time to get out of the shaft.

Trust you fellow humans! Hell love them! Brothers and sisters follow me into a new age of prosperusness, and multiple marriage partners, I am your SALVATION! *receives phone call form god* "hello is this Matt?" "No its Mark." "Sorry wrong number." Then god hung up, join us in Marks church of the Very Bright Light.

-- markisgreatgiveustehchocolatecake! (hammerofthehorse@BigPoppaPump.zzn.com), May 08, 2001.

My point was that when Columbine happened, everyone (that I've read about, or seen on TV) said "how could this happen, those boys were so sheltered!" Well maybe they were a little too sheltered. Sorry Mark, not calling you conservative, actually I wasn't attacking conservatives. I was attacking intellectuals.

-- Inukko (nadisrec@worldnet.att.net), May 09, 2001.

Trying to imagine Peter Chung directing Daffy and Bugs...

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo@aol.com), May 09, 2001.

Yes, by all means picture that, we could use a new topic. Although, I think Peter Chung's Roadrunner would be a better fit.

-- Inukko (nadisrec@worldnet.att.net), May 09, 2001.

We should start a page.

-- Frostbite a.k.a. Frosty the Snow Chick (mbkrooks@bellsouth.net), May 09, 2001.

WOW! I go away for a couple of days and come back to 22 new answers on this thread. Impressive. And interesting, I mean never in my most twisted imagination of Kevin Bacon game-ness do I think I could have ever connected Gundham Wing, Peter Chung, Ayn Rand, Daffy Duck, Hitler and the WTO. Pretty entertaining when you look at it that way. :)

p.s. I never meant to insinuate that Atlas Shrugged was a political philosophy I thought everyone should subscribe to... Just that it was a really great story and it had quite a bit of relevance to the subject. For those who are reading it... finish it, there are quite a few twists and turns you might not expect. Especially the end. :)

-- pixi (pixiness@yahoo.com), May 09, 2001.

Columbine kids, sheltered, like some kind of lack of community. Huh, I think I have a different post on that. Its sad though, victims begat victims. Youth culture has a hand in it as well makes kids think that is greatest time of their life. Seriously how many people really had that(teen drama) kind of sex, relationship crap in school?

-- markisgreatgiveustehchocolatecake (hammerofthehorse@BigPoppaPump.zzn.com), May 09, 2001.