With Bobby & Steve Clarke the team turned things around & played well. Now Clarke has gone, we've been shite. Just a thought.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Answers

Yup we do, but Fazackerly more so , pass and move, give and go. back up player with ball.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

this pratt i used to work with shared a flat in heaton with des fazackerly, he lived there all through the halcyon days in a small room with a single bed. apparently he was very frugal and didn“t talk much - almost a loner.

there you go

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

As discussed at length on here previously we haven't really seen the influence of Mick Wadsworth in a positive way yet. Will it ever happen? I can't see Bobby changing things there.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

It's virtually impossible to tell. Like TDO before him, Bobby Robson is really the Head Coach and it's very difficult to tell how much impact his No.2 really has - one way or the other.

When BR first came in moral was at a very low ebb, and I believe much of his +ve impact last season was down to picking up the team spirit and getting the players playing for each other. He did effect a change in the way Shearer was playing which also produced +ve rsults.

This season, much of that initial inspirational impact has quite naturally worn off - other than over Xmas, where I believe BR invoked the Dunkirk spirit to +ve effect in the face of a dreadful injury situation, including the loss of AS.
It was in this 2nd season where you would expect sheer coaching/tactical ability to come more to the fore. You have to say that for whatever reason that hasn't been obvious and signficant - but how much of this is truly the impact of the injury situation?

The reality is we simply don't know. No more than we can realistically assess the impact of either Steve Clarke or Mick Wadsworth individually. Because things haven't gone well this season, I feel there's been a tendency to be too hard on Wadsworth, and too accomodating with his boss - everyone loves Bobby: nobody even knows Mick Wadsworth: therefore the blame must reside with Wadsworth.

We can only realistically seek to assess the job the 'coaching team' en mass are doing under their leader. If Wadsworth isn't up to scratch, then you have to believe BR would know that and do something about it - for sure, he will stand or fall by that decision.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Agreed Clarky - `We don`t know`, What 99% on here do know is that the type of football this season has never changed since day one , we all without listing the obvious have remarked on the deficiences , YBR and all managers are keen to point out after poor performances that "Its back to the training ground to sort it out", after 38 games I will tell you that the same problems will still be there . The last training ground report merely confirmed to me the lackadaisical way the coaches go about their business, this before an important Derby too. Its back to my theory about the Old Boy Network , simple for me to say, "what`s good for Colchester may not be good enough for our team", Ageism does exist in football , and players 20-30 years will have nothing in common to banter with an unknown like Wadsworth, they will respect YBR to a degree due to past achievments but the trick is knowing when to take a back seat. Inner football circles still at times treat the fan`s as nonenities , they do not feel we know about the intracies of a very simple game , this is rubbish and if a majority express concern about lack of movement surely its not beyond them to to right this one glaring weakness amongs many others -or is it?, good workman never blames his tools so my granda said.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

The lack of movement is appalling. At the West Ham gaem Gallacher dribbled/stumbled through half a dozen tackles at one point forever looking up to try and see a player ahead of him to pass to. There was none. Apart from Dyer not one of our midfield players has got ahead of a forward in living memory.

The thought of a youthful Robert Lee type player bursting from midfield to overwhelm the opposition defence is something that died with Kenny and has never been reborn.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

but bill, i think a good coach can blame his players. Peter Taylor (despite bad run) coached gillingham, remember and he“s also led an international to great effect. but i too find wadsworth a bit annoying, and i don“t really know why

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

he doesn't look at all like a footballer, at least you remember a bespectacled Martin O'Neill playing, who in the world ever heard of Mick Wadsworth. He doesn't look animated during the game. No passion.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Nice, clean trainers, mind.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

LOL!!!

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Weird but a tecnician from PAT (Gosforth) who covers Scotland from his base in Perth just arrived on plant to repair access systems , avid season ticket holder, down on Saturday . I asked him without any prompting what he considers the main problem with the team to date,as I really value his opinion. He came out with Wadsworth immediatly, and again without any pushing or mention of this thread thought that Steve Clark had been a miss. When I showed him the last Steph report he was amazed that the players arrived seperatly, wandered off/on at will, stated if he can motor down from Perth, meet up with a bus for SOL at St James the players and staff should at least act as a team

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

To be honest, I think the main reason Wadsworth is getting stick is not based on any insight or knowledge of the facts, but because he has limited "street cred" or "status" in the game, ie. we'd never heard of him so he can't be any good.

If you're going to blame anyone for our formation, playing style, tactics etc. etc., then for god's sake blame the Organ Grinder not the monkey!

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

OK Clarky, I blame Bobby Robson for appointing him and once doing so not curtailing his contract when it is plainly obvious that he aint doin the biz, hold that ,I blame the board for appointing YBR and allowing him to appoint Wadsworth , I just luv that Irish coach on TV for Lucozade, Push, Push, Push, thats where Im comimg from . hard and then some with attitude, it rubs off beleive me.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

"I'm watching you this time"

Agreed buff, was going to suggest him to take over but didn't know if anyone else finds those ads as funny as I do :-)

I was whinging about the players not leaving their cars at SJP and being bussed to and from the training ground 2 years ago. I found it amazing that there was no warming down being done and the players were off without showering. Nothing wrong with being made to go back to the facilities at SJP and spruce up before leaving. Unshaven, unwashed, wandering about....bah, no surprises.

On that Football Dreamland with Alan Hansen last night you could see why Carrick opted for West Ham: smashing bloke that Joe Cole.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Forgot to mention the Liverpool Academy. Very serious business. Great mural over the indoor training facilities with "Centre of Excellence" and the club crest - enormous, remind you who and what you are there for - banners hanging along the sides with slogans like "Commitment", "Attitude", "Mentality" on them (very Nazi Germany and just as effective no doubt). Huge pictures of Owen, MacMananananananaman, Fowler and Gerrard along the corridors to remind them all who walked the same halls a few years before.

Of course, dogshit and borrowed facilities are bound to be every bit as inspiring so why bother?

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Softie,

I have to say I found that programme last night utterly depressing. For the very first time I realised just how far behind we have really fallen - even WHU and Spurs are light years ahead of us.

The Liverpool Academy was simply awe-inspiring - £12 million investment - and Steve Heighway is clearly a wonderful person to run it.

While trying to avoid being criticised for yet again berating our Board, how can we possibly compete for the top talent if they visit several top-class facilities like Liverpools when deciding which Club to join, and then turn up in Newcastle!
Frankly, we haven't got a prayer - and if that isn't depressing I don't know what is!

BTW, Joe Cole? Yep, smashing lad.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

It's the kind of complacency you expect from the 90 mile radius rule. The mackems are trying to get their youth academy plans through still but we haven't even chosen a venue. Can only imagine what kind of effect it had at Liverpool having so many overlapping areas on their patch. SAFC dragging theselves briefly out of the mire might give us the kick we need, but no doubt we will simply trust that they can't keep a grip without opposable thumbs and will soon sink back from whence they came.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Thank the sweet lord for the "opposable thumbs" theory!!!!

LOL - excuse me while I change my trousers.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

This is a recurring theme, not just recurring recently but over the years.

I'm sure I remember Keegan coming in and sayong how horrified he was at the state of training things. How he'd personally got some Flash (!) out and cleaned up the changing facilities he'd been so shoskced at the state of them.

Gullit said there was no dicipline.

Robson had to invoke some team spirit and get players training toegther properly, no mobiles, eating together etc.

Yet here we are again. It seems the procedures you'd put in place in any other business just seem to slip by the way side in football clubs. Maybe its a lack of contunuity but there is something fundamentally wrong.

On the youth side we have had one local lad, Shola, come through since Ossie was nice. Chopra and Offiong are the challenges, are they to become Paul Braysons or Gazzas ?

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

I suppose there's aslo Steve Howey, Steve Harper, and Aaron Hughes, but it's certainly not a good record.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Clarky, digressing a wee bit and I may be wrong on this one but I will give it my best shot. On the few times we disagree there is a very strong link to the `Blame Culture`, witness the Wadsworth episode.

From a Health and Safety point of view and one I think has been adopted, the blame or cause is attributable to the person,does not have to be the boss in legal terms (enter Dougal hopefully). This I think stemmed from an incident a few years back when a co-pilot was nearly sucked out of his cockpit when the side canopy came apart.

The inquiry traced the fault to wrong size of rivets in place, the company were found blameless, bosses /supervisor also/ the asst store- man in spares who boxed them wrong was given his cards . To a lesser degree the same was applicable for Piper Alpha although Armand Hammer received a fair amount of criticism. For example it pi££es me off when for example Mandelson commits a faux pax and the oppossition immediatly shout for the PM`s resignation, all tishuns are the same.

Ok my point is and BTW it was your last training ground report that sealed it for me is the Wadsworth is not fufilling what little potential the current playing staff have, YBR will stick with him,the senior players (ahem) will inwardly live with it, too soon after Gullitt, if Bobby cannot or does not see a problem , then we have a problem. The only leads I have are (a) a season`s play (b)his idea of a good player (c) his lack of dervish spontanety on the touchline (d) mainly Stephs training ground reports where she never consciously focussed on the guy, bet she will now, (e)opinions on here,

To conclude if we knew the full facts we would not have this forum!

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

If I remember correctly, the H&S legislation recognises the concept of organisational accountability, and seeks to determine where/why accountability has broken down in any given incident.
The organisation must ensure that all individuals clearly understand their specific roles for safe working, are provided with an adequate framework of operating procedures, are properly trained and demonstrably capable of carrying out their assigned tasks, and have all the 'tools' required to do the job.
They also expect organisations to be able to demonstrate how its people are involved in the management of health & safety (eg. auditing) and in the development of improvements in working practices.

In the event of a significant incident, they will look to see where 'the sytem' has broken down and who therefore is culpable. For instance, if a vital procedure wasn't in place, or an employee hadn't been trained, then someone in the management chain would be likely to be held responsible. If the incident were caused by someone disregarding an established procedure, when fully and demonstrably trained to carry it out, then that employee would be held responsible.

Does that all make sense?

In our particular case, I guess I'm saying that BR is the management person responsible for things related to football. It would be quite wrong to directly blame David Stonehouse for a lack of discipline at the Riverside, but IMO it would be appropriate to lay this blame at BR's door. If Wadsworth is a dip-stick as a Coach and not directing the players to move off the ball, then on something so fundamental to playing success, I feel BR should be held accountable.

However, if for a particular game BR and MW had agreed that Carl Cort was to mark Herman Hreidderson at all corners, and MW decided without further discussion to give the job to Kevin Gallacher, then MW should be held responsible for any resulting failure to implement.

If BR fails as a Coach then organisationally FS is accountable - he appointed him, and supervises him. Now, if when Bobby took the job he was promised £30 million a year for three years to improve a playing squad they initially agreed was not good enough to achieve what they have also agreed was to be BR's key objective, but subsequently Bobby was only given £5 million - then I would argue that FS could be held responsible for Bobby's failure, although this is clearly overly simplistic because there are other related factors.

In all of this, people must clearly know what is expected of them, and they must be given the wherewithall to achieve that - be it equipment, procedures, training, facilities, staff etc. If that is the case, they are entirely accountable for delivering: if they aren't given the wherewithall to do the job, they can't subsequently be held accountable for failure.

Phewww!

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Just testing Clarky, if the first part re H and S is off the top of your head and not from the good book you have my nomination as the BB`s safety rep along with your other jobs for a period of 3 years, this requires a seconder. As with the surfing analogy sometimes you have to go around the houses to arrive at a reasonable explanation and being the non - confrontational lump that I am, (unless I am in jabbing distance of a makem) I will ask you to wet your right 4finger and chalk one up for Clarky.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Yeah I'll second that Buff.....I like volunteering other people for things....

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

So do we have anything like Keegan's gang of three still in existence? Seems entirely appropriate to clarky's model that the players should be allowed to appoint representatives to be informed of their responsibilities in maintaining discipline and standards. Dare say it will just be the usual story where a small cartel are included in the inner sanctum based on relationships with the manager rather than necessarily being trusted by their peers. Buff's old boys' network again.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001

Robsons record as Manager from memory

Fulham - failed & sacked

Ipswich - God status many years later - won a European trophy with a tiddler club.

Oporto - did OK

PSV - turned them round when they were in the mire

Barca - won everything they entered bar the Champions League - he was replaced but paid in full for the 2nd year

NUFC - turned us round

Wadsworth ??

Hated at previous club and done nowt.

I'll second the touchline comments and reckon he's the problem.

-- Anonymous, April 25, 2001