Here is what I want to do ( in the event that we get this 5 acres ). I want a cow for the freezer and maybe one for milk. I would like some chickens. I want 2 pigs for the freezer. And of course a big garden. We have a family of 7 so I would like to grow as much of our veggies as possible and maybe have some extra to sell at the farmers market. I'd like to sell eggs there too. I've not seen anyone do that before at this farmers market.

I'm a little unsure about a milk cow. I want to make butter and yogurt and cheese. But I don't know how many animals 5 acres can support. Will goat milk work for all those things? I'm a little leary of that too. I bought goat milk in the store once and it was awful. Maybe fresh would be different? And I don't know how much "equipment" I'd need to make the milk safe to use. I'm assuming it need some processing.

I also want to raise some rabbits. The kids want them as pets. I want them for food. :)

And ofcourse a dog or 2 and maybe a cat.

Not that I could do this all at once. Probably start with chickens or rabbits. But for future reference. Do y'all think this is doable? Or is this all way too much for 5 acres?

Thanks! :)

-- Kathleen (krob777@msn.com), April 27, 2001

Answers

Response to So do you think 5 acres is enough?

You can have all of those as long as you understand you will need to buy hay ,unless you have some very good pasture land .Start slow do not get everything at once .You will learn as you go .Buy as much land as you can afford {they ain't making no more }.You can always improve the land and buildings.You can expand a house but not the acre in most cases .Good luck.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), April 27, 2001.

Response to So do you think 5 acres is enough?

I'm no expert Kathleen but raising all that stock on 5 acres would be a stretch. I seem to remember you need 2 acres/cow. I'm assuming you plan on grazing the critters as much as possible. On the other hand you might take a look at Joel Salantins book on pastured poultry. I believe he combines the poultry operation with a beef operation, first grazing the chickens for the nitrogen input to the soil, then follows up with beef to graze the green. Its a rotational grazing scheme.

There are others here that are alot more knowledgeable about this stuff. It'll be interesting to see what they say,

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), April 27, 2001.

Response to So do you think 5 acres is enough?

Well, it depends on where you live. If you have grass growing most of the year, hay won't be too big of a problem. Up here in Wisconsin we have to have hay for the animals at least 7 months out of the year. I'll tell ya though, a cow eats an awful lot! We had a couple younger ones for beef - carried them thru the winter and then butchered the following fall. A full grown cow will eat at least 1 1/2 a day. We also did goats. They take by far less hay but you may need more than one goat for that number in your household (unless your goat is an outstanding milker). We could sure tell the difference in the quality of milk if the goat was not fed a good quality of hay and grain. A goat will take probably at least 1/5 of what a cow will. They also will not need as much land to graze. My pasture wasn't good enough for their main diet, so we bought their hay. Some people use a cream seperator and then I know those who do not. It's all in what you want. I believe you need 2 acres per cow. (does anyone else agree?) Our hens free range when the weather is good and when we raised hogs, they were at the far end of the property in a hog pen area. We now have a couple horses and I need more land. The horse I have likes to chase the cows, so I can't graze them together. It's better to have too much land then to be stuck with not enough. I run the fence up into my yard now. Take everything into consideration and like was suggested later, move slow. Have fun with this new adventure!

-- Pat (mikulptrc@aol.com), April 27, 2001.

Response to So do you think 5 acres is enough?

A lot is going to depend on how the land is layed out. For a family of 7, you going to be using the good part of an acre for the garden, Another acre for home and "play" area for the kids. So is the 3 remaining acres enough for the animals? What type of land? Will the land feed them for the year or will you have use supplement in the winter or even summer?

For a meat cow and pigs you might be better off just finding a local farmer and buying the meet from him and having it butched or just using a local butcher to buy the meet. For dairy, you again might want to check local farms and see if they will sell to you. Some states they can, some they can not.

-- Gary (gws@redbird.net), April 27, 2001.

Response to So do you think 5 acres is enough?

Read the "HAVE MORE PLAN" they did it all on 2 acres!

-- Hendo (OR) (redgate@echoweb.net), April 27, 2001.

Response to So do you think 5 acres is enough?

I believe you can do it on five acres! We have 13 and we don't utilize half of them yet.

We currently have a rabbit barn with 18 mostly Angora rabbits. We are just finishing a chicken enclosure for 20 laying hens. We have a large fence containing two dogs. We have a BIG garden area and also have an small orchard area with five apple trees, two pair trees and two sets of grape vines. I have room and hope to eventually build larger fences for some Angora goats and some type of long haired sheep.

-- Suzy in Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), April 27, 2001.

Response to So do you think 5 acres is enough?

Well it just depends on how good of a 5 acres it is. You would really need to minimize the amount of yard you have and do very intensive gardening. A cow takes up a good bit of room but is absolutely worth it. I'd try to get a jersey since they are the smallest and therefor eat less. You'll want to plant your pasture area for the most and best forage possible. Also you might want to plant winter forage for her and the calf. Of course pigs, chickens and rabbits don't take up much room. It can be done. I agree that store bought goat milk is aweful.....the real thing is pretty good though :o)

-- Amanda in Mo (aseley@townsqr.com), April 27, 2001.

Response to So do you think 5 acres is enough?

Kathleen you need to visit some farms. Milk yourself a cow, take the milk home and make butter and cheese. Visit a goat farm, milk a goat, make cheese with it. If you have the patience you can skim the cream, keep it in the freezer and make butter when you have enough reserved, but without getting into another goat vs cow debate, having or not having butter isn't a biggy, (you can also use a cream seperator, making your options of breed of goat Nubian or at least a cross with some Nubian in it, or LaMancha!

No, 5 acres isn't enough for any of the animals unless you hay and grain. You would need the whole 5 acres just in hay for a nice small herd of goats! I actually prefer to raise my pigs in our old 4 horse trailer, they can't get out, you can move it around and hose it out everyday, keeping the flies away and them clean. We also don't have to worm or use any chemicals on them this way. The goats graze and browse the whole property (13) we have it fenced and cross fenced in different pastures, (I also think that with the right focus, goats are by far the biggest money makers on a homestead, and can eaisly be done with just you and kids) 2 donkeys share the largest area with the yearlings. The chickens have their own coop, though are let out to eat bugs and clean the goat feeders, after chores and they have layed. We used to have rabbits hanging in the chicken coop, which worked great. Read and visit farms before you build, before you buy, and before you make any decisions. Women are the ones who are left with 99% of the day to day chores on a homestead (hence the reason for no more rabbits, ducks, emu, pigs in pens, sheep etc.) With so much produce already in the freezer and in jars, and so much extra produce in my area for sell every year, I even decided not to garden this year, dismantling my raised beds. Like my quilting supplies tucked away in my rubbermaid boxes, the ebb and flow of the homestead is just like that, I am certain I will come back to gardening like I will my quilting. The farmers market is a great idea, especially if you branch out into selling your cheese also.

Goat milk from the store is awful. With having stock you will even need to put some thought into what kind of dog would work with your children and your stock. Starting off right away with hens and rabbits with a puppy, who then is 2 when you get your goats, cows or pigs, may not be the best idea, unless he is bred for being around stock. I have found that in raising freezer beef, it costs alot less to just purchase 1/2 or 1/4 a cow from somebody else who is homesteading. Goats are the perfect size for home butchering, and so are pigs and rabbits, though we have butchered a hamburger cow before, we also have been butchering for several years. Sending everything off to the butcher soon becomes comparable in price to meat markets. And don't be lead down the path of raising pigs for piglets, a money pit you will never crawl out of. Get a pig in the early spring, butcher it in the fall, here in East Texas that means the first day that it is cool enough to go outside :) no matter what weight it has reached!

There are as many ways of doing things as there are folks homesteading. You will take things from one person and something from another. Then when you start doing it yourself, you will find that only your own way works! I wish you and yours the best, I also wish you as much success as we have had, it's a wonderful way to raise your kids! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 27, 2001.

Response to So do you think 5 acres is enough?

We have 5 acres and so far have raised pigs,we move them every couple of days in moveable panels. This year we got laying hens and meat birds. If I got a cow it would be a Dexter, less milk, and they need far less acreage and food. Do a search on Dexters,they are way smaller than others. Half of our property is wooded and we are in NY so I would need hay, but if you start slowly and plan well I believe you will be fine with 5 acres. Most people always think more is better, but with good land and water and planning you'll do fine.Good luck.

-- Carol Koller (ckoller@netsync.net), April 27, 2001.

Response to So do you think 5 acres is enough?

YES YES YES We have alittle more then 5, 5.8 and on that we have 3 head of cattle,a freezer steer,milk cow and calf,2 milk goats and kids,a pony,chickens{hens and meat},turkeys,ducks,geese,a pot belly pig,gardens,fruit trees,rabbits,a greenhouse,lawn and "play space".Forgot the 3 dogs and cats and 4 little humans,so yes you can. E-mail me and I will tell you all about how we do it I forgot freezer pigs too

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), April 27, 2001.

Response to So do you think 5 acres is enough?

I believe its possible. We started out on a 1/2 acre, and only 1/3 of that was dedicated to gardens, log cabin, house, rabbit area, play area, dog runs, home business items (at one time we had car parts lining the driveway awaiting delivery). It got a little cluttered at times! No we have 4 acres. Most of it is not utilized. Our hard part of doing things is being able to come up with enough firewood on the 2 wooded acres. We have to ask around for people with fallen trees they want hauled off. We dont have a cow. Thought of one, but I am not sure big livestock really fits our homestead situation right now. Rabbits and deer hunting prodvide the meat. A medium sized garden does the rest. My wife was really pushing for horse, cow, goats, but not sheep. Here is what I discovered: Cows require 2 acres pasture, plus hay in the winter. 5 acres won't (most likely) be able to see a cow through the winter. Hay would have to be brought in. Goats require wooded land- they are foragers not grazers (like deer). Sheep require grazing land plus hay in winter. I have heard sheep can be milked. My wifes ruling on sheep stopped that idea in its tracks. I belive sheep would be able to be fed from the hay gathered on 5 acres- depending on how many. Remember though, sheep are hard grazers. If you don;t have enough pasture space, they will eat grass... roots and all. Llamas dont produce milk in quanities enough for human needs, plus they are apparently hard to milk. Our goal for our homestead is self sufficiency, so a cow would depend on things brought in, thus we have no cow. Rabbits can be put out on a lawn area to "graze" in a cage or fenced area with good results. Just make sure it has a lid and they have acess to shade and water 24/7.

-- Kevin in NC (vantravlrs@aol.com), April 27, 2001.

Response to So do you think 5 acres is enough?

Kathleen,

The answers you are getting are awesome. A couple more pointers for you. You may want to do a search under miniature cows. You may find something that will be easier to keep fed and still give you all the milk you will need.

It isn't clear based on your post whether you have homesteaded or not. I don't want to rain on your parade but having done the transition from city life to country life I know some of the pitfalls first hand. Animals are a BIG resposibility. They require care twice a day, freezing, snow, heat, storms, whatever the weather. And however you feel, sick or not, it has to be done. I've dragged 60 pound bales of hay thru 6 inches of frozen snow by hand during a ice storm because I couldn't drive a vehicle, too slick, and my husband couldn't get home from the city. Hauled water in buckets the same way. So, do take it a step at a time so you don't get discouraged.

Now, I wouldn't trade my lifestyle for anything. The peace and quiet and the incredible wonder of seeing new babies born and growing the best tasting vege's its just not something a city person knows about. That and feeling totally independent of the insanity all about us. Ah, the wonder of country life. And besides all this great outdoors work means I can eat all the chocolate I want without worrying about the weight LOL

-- Stacia in OK (oneclassycowgirl@aol.com), April 27, 2001.

Yes, you can do this on five acres... But there is a lot to think about!

If you want to make milk, cheese and yogurt, but don't want several gallons of milk per day, you could opt for a goat. (I like the taste better, but that's just me.)

You won't be growing feed on five acres.... Hay, grain etc. will mostly have to be purchased.

Law says 1 acre per animal such as a cow... I prefer the idea of two to three... Gives room to rotate and assure health of the pasture. I would think one acre would do for one goat... probably for 2 pigs, but I've never really had all that much experience with pigs.

If you do it right, you can grow all your veggies on less than an acre, and most of your tree fruit as well... Read up on square foot gardening, bio-intensive gardening, and portable greenhouses. You can also do planters and vertical gardening with a little creativity.

When I lived in the burbs, there was literally nothing in my landscaping that couldn't be used as a food, medicine or dye. Many plants served all three purposes. I just have a 'thing' about multi-purpose stuff... I usually buy as much as I can that will serve two or more purposes, if possible, including plants and animals.

Chickens don't require all that much room, but you will want to let them roam a little to keep them happy and healthy... Perhaps a 'truck' arrangement?

If you are going to sell eggs at a farmer's market - be absolutely sure of the laws in your area!! Usually, you will need a health certificate, but back in IL, the inspector came to the booth at the market, looked at the display and simply signed the form. You will want to be absolutely sure with the eggs, though.

AND - don't forget that your craft items will sell really well at market, as will mixes, cut flowers, dried herbs, jellies, sauces, vinegars, quick breads etc. Don't *just* sell veggies and eggs. There will be too much competition.

-- Sue Diederich (willow666@rocketmail.com), April 27, 2001.

I don't know if 5 acres is enough or not. I wanted to comment about goat milk. I tried goat cheese and hated it (and I didn't realize it was goat). A friend has milk goats and she doesn't care for it either, she makes soap out of the milk and makes more money with that craft than she could get for her milk. (Just a thought) She does not eat her goats, in fact, she sells them to people she knows (only) and asks to be first to know if you want to resell them. About cattle, if you want beef, don't raise Holstein for that, they take longer to mature and butcher. However, Holstein are good for milk, as are Gurseys. I believe Holsteins give you more milk, twice a day, compared to Gurseys, which are once a day milkers (if I have this backwards someone please advise). You might want to consider your habits & which would be best for your family, do you have the time twice a day? or only once a day to milk? As for how much you can do on 5 acres, what are the neighbors doing? it's probably a good indication of what your land would hold, how productive the grass, ect. is. However, beware the green plush look of Spring will soon be gone in land which has no irrigation, and you lose alot of feed. If you didn't ask, ask now if the land is irrigated? if they pay irrigation rights. Find out about your well too, water is vital, request a well test if you place an offer on the acreage. You want to know (1) what it produces per minute (2) how deep it is-if shallow you may have more contamination . We have two wells on our property, one we do not drink, it's very shallow and probably has a lot of nitrates from cattle grazing. Ask about any oil tanks on the property, you might end up being responsible to clean them up if they exist, and ask to have the septic inspected. Living in the country I assume this is what your property has and you need to be sure not to get stuck with inadequate facitilies. The septic can cost some money and some states now require large areas of land to be used for the waste, which would eat up your land. ANimals can ruin septic fields. A large family like yours could move in and have a problem with the septic, even if the selling family didn't (if they were only 2 or 3). Hope this gives you some things to double check. I've learned from some experiences!

-- Denise Wolfe (woolfpac@prodigy.net), April 28, 2001.

Good morning,

One thing to consider, which is why we don't have a milk cow, is that to get the milk, you have to breed her. If you don't have access to a bull or a way to transport the cow, then you have to buy semen and do AI which in my area is not cheap and not totally reliable unless a couple of vet trips are made. Goats on the other hand, are easier as they are easier to transport to the nearest good buck. Many times you can put them in the backend of your pickup (please use cattle bodies) and therefore no trailer expense. Goats are also less hard on the ground if you live in hilly areas like we do. They don't tear up the ground as badly walking on it. Another thought, cows eat alot of feed and hay. We raised beef for the freezer and it ended up costing us around $1.62 per pound as we had to buy hay and feed, but it tasted better than store beef. I like milk cows, but having only ten acres cleared prohibts the cow as we have three horses which are rotationally grazed on the available pasture in the paddocks. The goats on the other hand eat browse and very little hay (compared to a cow) therefore made more sense to us. Will you have a large animal vet in the area who will make cow calls if the cow gets sick is another question you need to answer BEFORE getting the cow? Around here, we have a good cow vet, but as far as goats are concerned, we have to pack them up and take them to the vet as he isn't that concerned with goats. So find that out first cause you will almost always have to have vet out to do SOMETHING to one of the animals. With a family of seven, one cow may make sense if the cost of feed and hay doesn't outweigh the cost of the milk, etc. you get from her. I think the rest of the plan is quite doable on five acres. The cow vs. goat is one you will need to research to see what is best for your area. One good thing about a cow is that it is definitely easier to fence an area for one than it is for a goat. Goats can get through most everything if they take a notion, but I love their personalities! Good luck on your new land. There are many folks here who have experience with milk cows and goats and can tell you more about the ups and downs of each.

-- Cindy (colawson@mindspring.com), April 28, 2001.

Thank you all so much for your advice. I guess the answer to my question is "maybe".

I should mention that we are in NW Arkansas. The land is all level pasture with a few trees scattered like a park (according to Hubby. I will see it today). I'm sure the neighbors will be helpful too.

I am a beginner with animals but I tend to research things to death before doing anything. So hpefully I'll kinda know what I'm doing :) I'm very intrigued with goats. I saw an ad in the paper for Nubians. Maybe they can educate me a little. :)

I'm sure there are other neighbors who might be willing to sell cow milk. I'll have to see. I've never eaten a goat so I'm not sure about using them for meat. I'll have to track some down and try it.

We will have plenty of time to do all the chores. I'm home all day teaching my kids. And they will help alot (weather they want to or not:)). I think they will enjoy it. They are pretty excited.

I will be going this afternoon to look at the property and talk to the owner. I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again! :)

-- Kathleen (krob777@msn.com), April 28, 2001.

Kathleen, take the neighbor situation very slowly. Here, you would be ridiculed for homeschooling, you also have way to many kids, may not go to the right church, or pick the right one once you got here. Be friendly, but my little utopia of all the gals on the road getting together to garden or can or make soap? Forgetaboutit! The first get together I had with them, 12 years ago, was to drink margarita's and watch their soap operas, when I found out that this was their normal everyday habbits from 12 to 3, then run around and clean house till hubby got home....... The old timers who have been around here forever are a whole different story, helpful and non-judgemental. Just something to keep in the back of your mind. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 28, 2001.

Hi Kathleen:

Reading all these good answers is making me very weary!

We have five acres and let me tell you, with 2 dozen sheep, 2 goats, 2 dozen hens, a dozen ducks and geese, and 5 cats, several vegetable gardens, fruit trees, etc., it's a LOT of work. We also do not depend on this "enterprise" for our income (we are not *that* crazy!)so in fairness, part of the reason it's a lot of work is that we are off- farm a good portion of the week. It's a trade-off. That said, I love it, and advocate this concept for most sensible people.

My voice of experience will repeat one thing, which is critical:

G-O S-L-O-W!

Please don't rush into getting all your animals at once. There is a learning curve to all of this and 1) you want to do the best for your animals, and 2) you don't want to set yourself up to fail. You want to have many small successes and not one spectacular failure. Trust me on this. Plus, all this getting set up will be challenging to your relationship with your spouse, especially with little ones to raise, too. This lifestyle can be great and rewarding, or it can be nasty and heartbreaking. We have read the testimonies right here on this forum.

Your enthusiasm will carry you forward and you will do great if you go slow. It's a wonderful lifestyle!! Best wishes to you (and sorry if my post sounds kind of grumpy. But I wish I had gone slower and I've been doing this for a number of years...) Good luck!

-- sheepish (WA) (the_original_sheepish@hotmail.com), April 28, 2001.

Well don't worry about me expecting to get to close to the neighbors. That one reason why I want to get out of town. Having neighbors drives me crazy!:) But the one neighbor works with my husband and is very anxious for us to move out there. They are already doing alot of the things I want to do. So if I have questions I'm sure they can help.

As far as people not liking homeschooling--I'm used to that. My Mom complains about it all the time. :) Most others seem to think its great. Around here its fairly common. As are large families.

I don't really expect to make money with these endevors. This is something I'm doing for me. Because I feel its the best thing for my family. And because I've wanted this my whole life.

I'm not afraid of work. :) And I don't plan to get a million animals at once. Going slow is my plan. I don't want to be totally overwhelmed. Even if I can't do everything I want , it will definately be an improvement over here.

Thanks again:)

-- Kathleen (krob777@msn.com), April 28, 2001.

If your climate is not desert, 5 acres should be adequate for your purposes. We are on five acres and have done all that you describe. We raised two steers, have chickens, have had geese, ducks, and turkeys, and now have thirty head of dairy goats. Fresh goat milk is wonderful stuff. Once processed commercially, the flavor is ruined. We have made ice cream and soft cheese, but haven't found the time to do other things with it, although it's not all that hard. For a family farm situation, I recommend several milk goats over a cow. Your two legged kids will be able to handle goats more easily than a cow, and goats are about four times more efficient in feed/production ratio than cows. Our Nubian milkers average one gallon a day each of rich, sweet, 5% butterfat milk. The only processing we do is to filter and chill. The equipment is not all that expensive. We have a simple stainless steel bowl with a hole in the bottom that takes a disposable paper filter (all available through goat supply cataloges). A stainless steel milk pail and two gallon tote gets the milk from the barn to the house. We also have a cream separator, butter churn, ice cream maker, pasteurizer, and yogurt maker. We've never used the cream separator, butter churn or pasteurizer yet. I've been drinking raw goat milk for three years and no ill effect. It just needs to be kept clean and chilled quickly.

Please visit our site at www.sundaycreek.com

-- Skip Walton (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), April 28, 2001.

Kathleen,

I'm not to far north of you, in the Missouri Ozarks. Around here you can pasture cattle year-round, with just enough hay on hand for the occasional deep snow. Last winter the occasional deep snow lasted way too long and many people were short on hay. Talk to your local extention agent to see what's the best pasture grass for your area. If you cross fence the area so you can keep the cattle grazing on the grass at the right time you can get by with less land. Ask your extention agent what the local stocking rate is. It should be about one cow/calf pair per 2 acres of improved pasture. If you want milk and beef both, you can get a dairy cow and breed her to a meat bull. Holstiens make more meat then other dairy cows, but you get lots of milk that's low in protien and fat. Jersies are good home milkers, but steers grow too slow to be worth keeping for beef and some people don't like their yellow fat. Pasturing dairy cows will give a low yeild, so you'll probably be buying grain for milch cows. The smaller breeds do better on pasture-only than the larger more modern breeds.

If you have to buy hay, it's not that bad of a deal since you're not only getting the beef and milk, but improving the soil. Feeding your own hay only rearanges the minerals in the soil. Hauling hay in adds nutrients.

==>paul

-- paul (p@ledgewood-consulting.com), April 30, 2001.

Excellent point Paul made on the hay. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 30, 2001.

The property is beautiful. The owner says you have to graze a couple head just to keep it from becomming a jungle. :) The grass is so thick a weed couldn't even think about growing there. The neighbor has a hog and some chickens, and a guy up the street works in a slaughter house and doesn't mind doing the butchering.

But the double wide won't be there until Wed. So we will go look again this weekend.

-- Kathleen (krob777@msn.com), April 30, 2001.

Irregardless of animals, you will never feel you have enough land! You will want more sometime just because you know you would care for it. Sigh. Our 22 acres seems small at times.

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), April 30, 2001.

I am not too terrible West of you in Eastern Oklahoma. Homeschooling was no problem, no one seems to care about our family which can be a problem also because my husband travels alot with his job and there have been times alone I could have used a friend's opinion. We have quite a few acres which we do not use. I have 27 mother cows with one bull, 20 ewes, bee hives, chixs, horses and a blueberry u-pick plus just planted Christmas Tree Farm. My husband is building a green house. To tell the truth, I am tired all the time. My girls have just graduated from homeschooling 12 years, one in college and one starting in Aug. Without their help it is too much. My husband will not retire for another 10 plus years so actually I am thinking of cutting the sheep down alot. The cows are not work, the watering of all our plants is alot of work but worth the money. The bees are worth it, chixs provide too many eggs andpeople want them free it seems to me. The sheep is not worth it but I love sheep. I think I will sell all the babies this year and keep a dozen breeding ewes with one ram and sell all babies (we eat a leg of lamb monthly). Vicky sure knows her stuff on goats but I would think that both (at I know sheep do) need worming all the time and seem to get sick alot. I rotate pastures (more than five acres) but at night everything has to be locked up because of coyotes which you will probably have too. I hope I didn't discourage you because I wouldn't move to the city, we love the country I just need to decide how much I can do and still have a few hours to my self. Reading a few forums is about all the time I have free in the day. Good Luck, Debbie

-- Debbie (bwolcott@cwis.net), May 01, 2001.

Howdy from the SW, Kathleen. I think you can do it... but is 5 acres for all those kids?? Ha! I recommend "Five Acres and Independence" and "The Have-More Plan", the latter is a must! If you research things to death, then you'll enjoy that one. It's a great overview to homesteading, chock full of ideas and inspiration & will get you hooked on more in-depth homestead books. It got me all inspired 30 years ago. Yes, go slow. I have 2+ acres, 12 goats, 17 chickens, 3 dogs, 5 cats (inside)... after 8 hours working for 'da man, I come home and work some more. I'm just one person, at least you have family to participate with the farm. I'm not a great gardener, so I don't have veggies to put up.. I just eat them fresh. But, in the summer months, I don't come in the house till it's dark. Things to consider. I'm moving this summer and my goal is to do the farmer's market-thing eventually, too. It just looks like fun to me, and if I make up some of the cost in feed or time, then that's fine. Good luck to you, I'm rootin' for ya! dh in nm

-- debra in nm (dhaden@nmtr.unm.edu), May 01, 2001.

Kathleen, you can do ALOT on just 5 acres with careful planning.

I think the most important part of planning the layout of your farm is protecting your well from livestock contamination. This will protect your family's health and the resale value of your farm. When we went looking for our place, we had to pass on several beautiful places because the wells could not pass inspection and testing. Chicken coops, barns and livestock loafing areas near or sloping toward the well are a big no-no. So are storage of pesticides, herbicides, chemicals or petroleum products near the well unacceptable. In our neck of the woods, we don't have any of these things within 100' of our deep well and drainage is set up so nothing will flow toward the well. This takes up a big chunk of yard but it is worth having that cold, clear, clean healthy water to drink.

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), May 02, 2001.

Paul had made a good point on the hay. We sell hay to landowners on small acreages. I think they have the better deal, we fertilize, hire someone to make round bails, a different person for square bales then in the heat of OK, haul it while at the other side their sitting there just waiting. They have wonderful hay for the year without maintence of hay fields.

-- Debbie (bwolcott@cwis.net), May 02, 2001.

Dear Kathleen:

Yes, you can... My brother-in-law and sister-in-law had 5 acres of land. I personally saw them raise a variety of birds in their chicken coop - chickens of course, pheasants, and peacocks. They raised or adopted geese and ducks and kept their eggs when they showed up at their pond. She also had as many as 10-15 pygymy goats. They are fairly small. Approximately the size of a cocker spaniel. They also had rabbits. By the way, rabbits are good to eat as well. German people especially in their culture eat what they call hossinfeffer. (Probably mispelled). Nonetheless, tastes delicious, as I've eaten it at their house. They also had a potbellied pig. I see no reason whatever that it can't be done. A cow will take roughly 2 acres to graze on. Keep in mind both rabbits and goats can be food. As they have mentioned on numerous occasions in Countryside some people love goat meat. It sounds as though their milk makes excellent fudge and special cheeses. It is also possible that you will need to supplement hay and straw. But if you get as much from them as you plan on, I think it would more than benefit and be economical to do your plan. Keep in mind too that, goats don't graze exactly like cows or horses, they prefer yanking off leaves from bushes and so on. So you can eat them, drink their milk and let them keep some of your "overrun" acreage clean and it provides their eating needs, as well. Oh, just got another idea. Don't some breeds of goats provide a type of wool for spinning and knitting. Another hidden benefit. Read, experiment and conquer. You can.

-- Sheila Lutz (glutz43@alltell.net), May 03, 2001.

Did you move yet, Kathleen?

-- Alison in N.S. (aproteau@istar.ca), August 13, 2001.

No, but thanks for asking. This whole thing is getting rediculous. The first 5 acres we were ready to buy even without seeing the mobile home. Then he decided to raise his price to $55,000 and got a really junky mobile with tiny windows. We said forget it. Then he got another 5 ready with a better mobile. Still needed work but nothing we couldn't handle. He said $1000 down and $450 a month. We said yes, we'd do it. Then he decided to raise the price to $57,000 with a higher monthly payment. So I guess its off again. Wish this guy knew what he was doing--besides annoying us.

Part of the problem is that he wants all our communication to go through Bob. He is a guy my hubby works with who bought a parcel from him already. I think Bob is the one making this impossible for us. Even though he told us about it to begin with. I think he and his wife decided they didn't want us for neighbors. Apparently they were offended that I got on to their son for nailing my daughter in the back of the head with a tree branch and laughing about it. I figured I needed to since they don't care.

They talk about being these Chistians church type people and their kids have nastier mouths than most adults I know. They never disipline them. These kids will go up to where the men work and tell adults to leave them the f*** alone or they'll kick their f*****' a**. These kids are maybe 9 or 10! Unreal.

So I guess its better that we don't get it. But it still makes me mad. Sorry so long of a post. This all just came to a head this morning and I'm so mad I can't see straight. So I guess I needed to vent. :) Thanks for letting me. :)

-- Kathleen (krob777@msn.com), August 13, 2001.

doesn't sound like I'd want them for neighbors. My kids would surely feel the wrath of something if they talked like that. Kathleen, isn't that an extremely expensive price for land in NW Arkansas? If I have it correct, this is land without a house? If I was you, I'd quit dealing with these people altogether, especially after being jerked around on the price like that, especially twice. It doesn't sound like good business and anything that starts off bad usually gets worse.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), August 13, 2001.

Kathleen, don't give up, just start searching somewhere else in the area. Doubt you'd want to be neighbors with this family anyway. Imagine the stress on your husband at work if you truly got fed up with the other kids' behaviour. Better to leave some space and find your own perfect acreage. Hang in there.

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), August 13, 2001.

Yes, it has probably worked out for the best. I had a bad feeling about having those people so close. But sometimes I wonder if we'll ever find a place that the whole family agrees on. I figured it would be a start. But I'll keep looking!! Not to worry. :)

The land did have an old double wide mobile home on it. Well, it wasn't that old, just needed work. And all utilities were in. That is a big plus.

It was high even before he raised it (again) but I figure we can't be too choosy since we have to have owner financing. But I see owner financed land fairly often so something will come up (I hope)

The difficult part is land with no improvements. We really can't pay rent and land payment and still save to put in improvements. Thats why this sounded good. Land, home , and improvements. I could handle no improvements for a while but my family says no way.

So you see, it will take a very special place to fit our needs. So I may be out of luck. But I'll keep looking. Maybe by the time we find something, we'll have our credit to a point where we can get bank financing.

Thanks all for being there. I feel better talking to people who understand. :)

-- Kathleen (krob777@msn.com), August 13, 2001.