IRS won't answer the question....greenspun.com : LUSENET : Freedom! self reliance : One Thread
Well I told you that I was always looking into tax law;) Here's one of the newsletters I receive. I thought it was worth sharing with you....
* What Happened at the IRS Walkaround?
Battalion of Tyranny Responders Circles IRS Headquarters shouting: "SHOW ME THE LAW!" Commissioner Rossotti refuses to answer the questions and allegations raised by tax researchers. A small army of tax honesty advocates from almost every state marched from the Jefferson Memorial to IRS headquarters in Washington, DC on Monday morning, April 9, 2001, to begin what history may come to view as the Boston Tea Party of the 21st century. The crowd was attired in blue windbreakers of the style worn by federal officers, but instead of "FBI/ATF" on the back, these jackets were emblazoned with the words "Tyranny Response Team" in large gold letters. Under a perfect spring sky, they enthusiastically welcomed opening remarks by Bob Schulz,chairman of We The People Foundation. Schulz introduced Ex-IRS agents Joe Bannister, Sherry Jackson and John Turner and also introduced Bill Benson as the key researcher exposing the 16th amendment fraud. Also introduced were several employers who have stopped all employer withholding, including Nick Jesson and James Molen. Under Jefferson's great marble columns, Schulz explained to marchers and onlookers that this march was to publicly challenge the IRS because they have failed to prove their legal authority to force most Americans to pay the federal income tax or to have it withheld from their pay. As history records, Jefferson was gravely concerned about the unchecked power of a large federal bureaucracy and set out to insure that the structures and taxing limitations imposed by the constitution would prevent that from happening. Schulz noted several key quotes from Jefferson: Shortly after 10 a.m., the masses formed into a long serpentine column of marchers that stretched completely around the eastern portion of the tidal basin and started the march toward the IRS. Holding high the Constitution and their banners, flags, and hand-held signs, the blue-clad battalion wove across the pathways and sidewalks of the monument grounds where thousands of onlookers were enjoying the blossoming cherry trees. They greeted and encouraged the marchers, who distributed copies of the USA Today ads previously run by We The People. Hundreds of vehicles honked in support as police halted traffic for minutes at a time as the march crossed intersections including Independence Avenue and Constitution Avenue. As the blocks-long parade neared IRS headquarters, numerous suited IRS employees and security personnel waited outside and peered out from building entrances and windows. For the first time in history a large group of citizens defiantly circled the IRS complex several times chanting "Show me the law!" Media coverage included Fox News, CNN, NBC as well as various print and radio reporters. Schulz and other leaders of the march gave a number of interviews to the reporters expressing outrage that the government of a free people would steadfastly refuse to disclose its legal authority to force most citizens to pay the income tax or to address the issue of fraud in the ratification of the 16th amendment. At 11:30 Bob Schulz directly addressed the marchers and onlookers and again invited a representative of the IRS or the Commissioner, himself, to answer the allegations. After waiting respectfully for ten minutes outside the main entrance it was obvious that Rossotti would not appear. An additional written invitation was issued from the podium and hand delivered to a guard who passed it to IRS officials huddling in the hallway. During this wait the marchers forcefully repeated "Show us the law!" and "Show us Rossotti!" After several minutes and a flurry of phone calls and confusion inside the building, Lt. E. Roberts Jr. of the Federal Protective Service appeared and was quoted, "There is nobody here that wants to talk to you. If you have a grievance there are procedures available". Predictably, this comment resulted in loud chuckling from the crowd. After the Commissioner refused to address the gathering, Schulz again took the podium and announced that after six formal and failed attempts over two years to get answers to these critical legal grievances, the American public is now justified in taking escalated steps to oppose the unlawful operations of the IRS. Schulz proclaimed that the government and the People are "on a collision course" and the next logical action is to actively encourage non-filing and non-withholding to force the government to address these claims. "After the continued refusal of the government to directly rebut these well-researched legal claims and explain where they are in error, one must conclude that they are TRUE and proceed to act accordingly. The People will not long tolerate a government that will not answer questions concerning the most basic claims of its legal authority. We The People have a long and well-anchored heritage of fighting tyranny and directly repelling the oppressive forces of the police state. Indeed it was Thomas Jefferson himself who openly suggested that a revolution every 20 to 30 years was necessary to maintain the proper balance of power between The People and the government." After concluding remarks by Schulz, the march proceeded away from the IRS headquarters down Constitution Avenue toward the Washington mall area where a portable stage had been set up by We The People. Schulz invited several key tax movement leaders to address the march participants. Among those sharing their thoughts with the crowd were Joe Banister, Bill Benson, Sherry Jackson, John Turner, Leonard Roberto and Nick Jesson. Schulz concluded the day with his personal thanks and an admonition that this movement is growing quickly and will continue to strongly execute actions designed to return the order of law and liberty to the People.
-- Doreen (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 02, 2001
It is said that there was once a time when people believed that the world was flat.The ancient greeks KNEW the earth was round.Cultures predating theirs KNEW the earth was round.Any one that ever watched a boat slip over the horizon could extrapolate that the earth was round.In the middle ages well after the greeks,well after the romans the idea that the earth was flat persisted.In fact at this time stating that the earth was round and not the center of the solar system and the center of the universe as well would get you burned alive.No matter how much evidence was presented to the contrary, people came to insist that the earth was flat.No matter how educated Judges became none of them would admit in court the earth was indeed round.They didn't want to risk losing their status by saying anything contrary to the then accepted theory that the earth was flat.No one no matter what they thought or knew to be true privatly would admit to it publicly.No one wanted the wrath of the inquisition focused on them.So on it went until a few plagues wiped out a large portion of the population.What does this have to do with income tax? EVERYTHING. As long as we have a majority of the population WILLING to go along with it and AFRAID not to,it will never change.I have no answer or ray of hope to hold out.I do my best to work only for myself or to barter labor for goods rather than take reportable income.Work cash only and anonymously.I try to stay off the radar screen and in the event that the "new inquisition" lays hands on me I have vowed to not sell my life cheaply, thus reduce the number of inquisitors.Having said this......even Galileo recanted.When it finaly gets down to the nitty gritty do you pay tribute to Rome and live or do you refuse and die?
-- greg (email@example.com), May 02, 2001.
Well Greg, I have been considering a new slogan for those of us who don't like bowing down to the current agenda.....Refuse, Resist, Reclaim. Sometimes one or the other is the better answer.
I do not mind paying Constitutionally mandated taxes, excise and direct, subject to apportionment, and we have plenty of those, I do mind being subjected to extortion every year under a voluntary system. How can it be voluntary when the agents carry weapons in case you disagreee with them?
So if we have destruction because of FMD or MCD, do you think people will stand up and say it? I don't. I think people will look to the government to save them and ultimately that we will all be subject to the UN. So you have to decide what you want to support, because when you give money you are in essence giving tacit consent. Even if it's for something you need....sometimes it hurts to pay bills, but you use the service under the terms agreed to.
With the IRS, I never agreed, I never used them for anything, I never asked for Social Security, nor did I knowingly volunteer to participate in their program of revenue collection. My folks were lied to about the SS#, and they are upset that they saddled all of us with it, I was lied to when I started working for a wage, saying that I HAD to do this, on and on. It's fraudulent and extortion. The agency itself can't even explain where the law is saying we must all pay, and they don't advertise what income is actually SUBJECT to the tax although it is shown in their massive code, and there are only four kinds of income subject to the tax. It's quite the racket really.
-- Doreen (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 02, 2001.
Ok, I'll ask this. Which group would you rather have after you? The IRS or the Mafia? I personally would rather have the Mafia. They would settle it with me and not involve my descendants or hurt innocent by standers. Now folks, that is a sad commentary on the affairs of our country.
And actually, around here I think they'll have trouble with this livestock execution thing.
-- Gren (email@example.com), May 02, 2001.
Gotta say you make me laugh... Don't know those Italians too well, do you?? I can joke about that cause the maiden name was Miramonti, lol!! Sides... everybody from Chicago is Mafia, aren't they??? LMAO!!
Doreen - I have never even heard of this group... Would like more info on them. Do they have a web page? Snail mail? I really want to get to know more about these folks - hell - I'll sit in jail with them, lol! I do whatever I can to avoid those blasted taxes... But, I still wind up sending in the money for them to collect interest on - so far, I've been lucky and have NEVER owed the IRS anything. Would love to have all that interest back, too!!!! States are a quite different matter, but I've been fairly lucky there, too.
In a book I have on the Constitution, the following is what is said about the 16th Amendment.... The problem I have with it, besides its age, is that it seems there might have been laws passed or threats made against the States to coerce them into ratifying this amendment... Remember, they did this same thing not so many years ago with the drinking age (threatening to cut off Fed funds to States that didn't raise it to 21) and also more recently with the drug laws (California and another state legalized marajuana for medical purposes, and the FED stepped all over them).
Granted, the research may show that its all a bunch of lies, but kids have used the same book in that same school since '77, and I don't have any earlier works....... If anybody does, I'd sure like a copy from as far back as I can get!!!!!!!!! I'd even be willing to pay good money for it - I'd LOVE to know the WHOLE truth about this one! (Yes... have several facsimilies of the hand written version...)
I have this theory that things get 'reprinted' every time they want to change something...
I find the wording, and the implications abominable, to say the least, but that's what THIS book says -
("The Constitution of the United States of America" Presented by Mr. Rodino, November 3, 1977 * Ordered to be printed, United States Government Printing Office, Washington, 1978)
Anyway: " - " - "
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
The 16th amendment to the Constitution was proposed by the Congress on July 12, 1909. It was declared, in a proclamation of the Secretary of State, dated February 25, 1913, to have been ratified by 36 of the 48 States. The dates of ratification were: Alabama, August 10, 1909; Kentucky, February 8, 1910; South Carolina, February 19, 1910; Illinois, March 1, 1910; Mississippi, March 7, 1910; Oklahoma, March 10, 1910; Maryland, April 8, 1910; Georgia, August 3, 1910; Texas, August 16, 1910; Ohio, January 19, 1911; Idaho, January 20, 1911; Oregon, January 23, 1911; Washington, January 26, 1911; Montana, January 30, 1911; Indiana, January 30, 1911; California, January 31, 1911; Nevada, January 31, 1911; South Dakota, February 3, 1911; Nebraska, February 9, 1911; North Carolina, February 11, 1911; Colorado, February 15, 1911; North Dakota, February 17, 1911; Kansas, February 18, 1911; Michigan, February 23, 1911; Iowa, February 24, 1911; Missouri, March 16, 1911; Maine, March 31, 1911; Tennessee, April 7, 1911; Arkansas, April 22, 1911 (after having rejected it earlier); Wisconsin, May 26, 1911; New York, July 12, 1911; Arizona, April 6, 1912; Minnesota, June 11, 1912; Louisiana, June 28, 1912; West Virginia, January 31, 1913; New Mexico, February 3, 1913.
Ratification was completed on February 3, 1913.
The amendment was subsequently ratified by Massachusetts, March 4, 1913; New Hampshire, March 7, 1913 (after having rejected it on March 2, 1911).
The amendment was rejected (and not subsequently ratified) by Connecticut, Rhode Island and Utah.
Hmmmmm.... Wonder what happened to Florida, Pennsylvania, Vermont, Deleware, Virginia, Wyoming and Alabama????? Its really interesting that among those who aren't mentioned and those who didn't vote for it, that several were in the original 13 colonies....
-- Sue Diederich (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 02, 2001.
Sue you might be confusing me with someone else in regards to the mob.I wouldn't want to do a deal with either them or the irs.The mob might quit and take their loses after losing a few soldiers..the irs well.......at least you can hide from the mob.
-- greg (email@example.com), May 02, 2001.
Now come on people...Who's afraid of the big bad wolf???
Sue, I am at a slight disadvantage because my computer dumped on me and erased all my bookmarks. I am pretty sure this is from the Tax Freedom people. I'll check into some things and post a few sites for you all to peruse at your leisure. When you are talking ab out law, things become very complex that should be very simple. The tax laws are just that. They have to substantiate what kind of tax the income tax is, excise...on goods, which was ruled out in Brushaber, or direct, which has also been ruled out in another case I can't recollect at the moment. There are four types of income subject to the tax by the IRS' own laws. I bet none of us have these types of incomes
1) Stock dividends
2) Foreigner working in America
3) American working overseas for a foreign company maintaining American citizenship
4) Corporations or those receiving special priveleges from the government in conducting their business.
That's from their own laws. So they now think they are extra legal and don't have to follow their own rules. Bosh!
-- Doreen (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 03, 2001.
I was just kidding... No affiliations here, buddy - that was all before I was ever a 'gleam in my Mother's eye' so to speak!!! Just teasing you is all!!
Thanks - I am really quite interested in this - especially since your last post here... If foreigners working here are supposed to be taxed, I'd love to hear the IRS explanation for no taxes for seven years for them, and how they wind up on SS and welfare!!!!
I don't have any of the IRS laws (though I s'pose I should look those up on the web, lol). I just know that we (legal and law-abiding citizens) keep getting R***d, while the 'rich' the 'political' and the 'foreigner' keep getting all the breaks!!
Corporations don't get all that much from the government anyway... Unless they are really big. Had one... Between the lawyers, insurances and the tax man, it went bankrupt. We won't even mention the blasted accountant....
-- Sue Diederich (email@example.com), May 03, 2001.
Here are a few sites to start with:
There is also one called militiawatchdog.com that refutes a lot of arguements. and ottoskinner.com who has had NO suits filed against him ever, since 1979 he hasn't filed. Have fun and ferret out the truth. It takes some time!
-- Doreen (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 03, 2001.
I can't say anything nice about militia watchdog.Mark Pitcavage is a fat turd and a LIAR.He made his bones "refuting" the militia movment (which was its own worst enemy)He managed to score some federal money by being a lapdog not a watchdog.He tells one side of the story and often chooses not to get that right.He is real big on collectivist thinking.I believe that he is now hooked up with Morris Dees another sleazeball and liar for hire.Don't know what came over me with all this that guy and his site just raises my hackles.
-- greg (email@example.com), May 03, 2001.
Yeah, Greg. I don't like the guy at all, but I always like to look at things from opposing angles. It helps you decide what is really right. I liked your little rant there!
-- Doreen (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 03, 2001.
I agree with you Doreen one should always examine both sides of an issue.It does help if both sides are based on fact and truth.In this fellows particular case he used to haunt "patriot" bulletin boards making trouble and when he was completely outargued,discredited and bitch slapped.....He started his own site so that no one could call him out on the horse hockey he throws.Since he set up the site he is now an "expert" according to the media and the government.He is neither.He is a middle aged professional student.Anyway since this parrot says all the right words he is now an expert.If you tell him he is full of crap and prove it.He simply calls you a nazi and puts you on his ever growing list of dangerous antigovernment subversives.This wouldn't be any big deal but a lot of folks including the FBI and BATF take this jackass seriously.Well I guess there used to be folks that denounced communists and those that denounced witches just for giggles.Same type of person different shtick.
-- greg (email@example.com), May 04, 2001.
Wow. Thanks for that bit of history Greg. I had no idea. He just irked me because he was so snotty about everything and the facts didn't seem to bear out his conclusions. Also, the patriot is becoming a maligned being in this country. People are equating the term with hate groups, which is another term that makes me go....grrrr. Nazi's are morons and I have no problem telling them so to their face. I deplore rascism in any form and think people can earn the right to be dubbed stupid regardless of skin color, or any thing else they happen to have no choice in. I guess I could be in a hate gorup. I do hate, decided stupidity, apathy and bureaucracy,sex offenders, murderers, and rascism, and grasshoppers, and fire ants, and snakes. Now on to happier things!
-- Doreen (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 05, 2001.