We've often wondered whether homesteading would be easier in a community. It seems that so much work is duplicated by everybody being independent, and so much equipment is capable of being shared.

However, all the communities we've ever become aware of have failed over time, and our own efforts to work with close friends have always failed or never got of the ground.

What are your experiences on this subject? Where are the problems (personality conflicts? ownership issues? lack of communication? changing ideals? parenting?). How could it be made to work?

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

Answers

Ask the old order amish.They have been doing it for 200+ years.

I have friends that bought a property together with another couple they knew and shared common interest.They split the property and each does his own thing but help each other from time to time and are there for comraderie.Is working for them.That's what I envision,people just being neighborly and helping each other.I lived one place where that is exactly how people were,and I wanted to live there forever.Just a bunch of subsistance farmers,mostly pretty elderly,and the best folks on planet earth,bar none.I lived in paradise and left-stupid me.

Sharing land,etc., is too foreign a concept for most.Takes a high degree of cooperation,and let's face it, us hermit types have problems with that.We're not meanspirited,just cussedly independent.That's why the community owned concepts don't usually work out.

And yes the borrowing back and forth of tools and knowledge is exactly what I grew up with. And I would be happy to move there, David,since that was one of our three top locations when we were looking for land. Nick spent time in Springfield Missouri and fell in love with the Ozarks.I liked what I saw too, when we went there looking for land. But,alas,woe is me,I have fallen madly and hopelessly in love with my farm,so you all will just have to move here.

We looked for people who would live out in the boonies, to buy a property with ,too,but we never could find anyone who likes living as far back in as we do.If the man did,the wife didn't.Almost everyone who visits likes it here,but they all say they couldn't live here. Except for my one friend.I finally had her over last week for a little picnic. When I talked to her the other day the first thing that came out of her mouth was "I really had a great time at your place.I really loved it there.I could live there.I just loved settin'on the front porch with everything so quiet and peaceful" She is the very first woman ever to have said that.I believe we might just get to be good friends!

Did I actually answer anything or was I just musing?

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

Different values. Different ways of taking care of things. Different levels of commitment. Different energy levels. Some people with lots of energy, lots of skills and lots of equipment vs other folks with low energy, no skills and nothing to trade.

I believe in casting my bread upon the waters - some folks take much, much more than they give. I'd happily loan out anything I have; however Hubby gets irked when even I invade the sanctity of his toolbox. When I borrow equipment from someone, it gets returned in as good or better condition than when I took it. When my buddy borrowed the berry transplanter, it came back caked with mud and all the hoses off. I want to stay in the country no matter what it takes; Hubby would be happy living in a refridgerator box behind K-Mart as long as he had his bankbook to read. I work hard for short periods of time, but then I go do something else for a while - sort of rotate my muscles; and I WILL take a nap in the afternoon unless there's a dire catastrophe! Who works off the farm and who works on the farm? Do we trust that others will help when we need it, or do we need to use barter units? Who decides what hay field gets baled first when rain threatens? What if I think horses are a waste of feed that could be used for meat animals, but someone else thinks all pussy cats should be shot because they might eat a songbird? Do I loan out my equipment to the guy who tills up and down hills, rather than on the contour, and thus be partially responsible for his wanton destruction? I think you go fishin' to get a fish for supper, someone else thinks catch and release. Are the kids allowed to ride four wheelers on the trails, or are they for horses only?

These are just some of the things that popped into my mind. As I said before, I'd love to live in a community of like minded folk - but are we as like minded as we might think?!

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

Hey Chris Hawkins was researching communities maybe he'll check in. I learned a little from being a neighbor to Ananda Village some years back. Everyone has to be absolutly committed to one thing. Ananda's was to Yogananda. I used to make fun and call them AnaDROIDS because they walked around with silly little grins on their faces. But hey, they must be going on about 40 years old now so it must work for them. I really love the Quakers and sent my son to their school and almost got involved with a community but they insisted I believe in God. I have some trouble with that. Ha! Anyway I'm sure theres a lot of people who just thrive in that setting.....Kirk

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

I think Polly made some real good points. So many different areas to consider. I have lived in spiritual communities, but only for months, never for the long haul. Every one of the issues you mentioned David made it interesting and sometimes difficult. I like to watch my Amish neighbors work together and when my father died they pitched in and helped us when we needed it. We do help each other back and forth and I enjoy and appreciate that.

My idealistic self would like to believe that a group of people could live together in peace and harmony, working together for a common goal and common good. My husband and I are such isolationists that I am afraid we would really stumble over people if we lived too close. Actually, Polly's community on the other thread sounds quite wonderful to me.

Years ago, remember I am older than dirt, we lived in a rural community that was quite "poor". We did share equipment with a few neighbors quite successfully. Somehow it always seemed to work out that the hay all got done etc. I see that with my neighbors and get jealous at times.

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

We like our independence and privacy. And we also own a tractor and fencing in common with our neighbors. They also watch our place and animals when we go on vacation and we do the same for them. The neighbor to the other side of us swaps us labor for trees....we fell them, cut them up and deliver the rounds to her. We get to keep half. My friends, family, and our extended community (church, especially, but also my husband's service club), sheep folks, friends at the feed store, and friends in town, round out our larger circle.

The tractor ownership has worked out okay, except for when it isn't working...then it's "who is going to fix it?" We have also agreed to make cider in common (we build the press, they supply the apples) but our schedule got too busy when it was time to press.

I guess I like working in/around the larger community where we can share as needed. I don't think a commitment for much more than that would work for us. After all, just staying married and dealing with church stuff (I have my own ideas sometimes and get impatient, etc.) is a hard enough commitment some days! Can't imagine if we had kids, too!

Community is as community does...have you helped your community today? (grin!)

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

Well I just found Polly's community on the other thread (social issues). LOL! I somehow missed it, and posted this one after somebody else mentioned like-minded folks in a community (Cindy, I think).

-- Anonymous, May 07, 2001

I've been friends with people at many different communes over the last twenty odd years.

With rare exceptions, the most bone headed, stubborn person ends up owning the place after everyone else gets frustrated and moves.

One exception is an hour and a half south of here; this commune has been in existence for almost forty years, and the residents are doing very well. They are very loving, very accomodating folks, and I'm very impressed by their loving atmosphere. There are only three families left, though, down from several full time, and HUNDREDS during the summer, back in the halcyon days of the hippie movement.

One other one, only a few miles from the first, is also still going strong. Their success, as far as I can tell, is because they each own their own share of the land, which can be sold to anyone else.

One commune where I knew a half dozen folks had a rule that any member could sell his share to someone else, but that the "someone else" had to be approved by the rest of the group. Boy, did that create some contentiousness! This commune, too, ended up in the hands of one man.

Several friends of mine, and my wife's have discussed the creation of a retirement home, called "Purple Haze Retirement Home" :) The idea is it would be jointly owned, and we could share the costs of a full time nurse, cook, criadas, etc. My part of figuring this out was to come up with the idea that we all put up equal shares in the land, buildings, and so forth, but WE CAN NEVER SELL OUR SHARE. If someone is not comfortable with this, fine, don't be a part of it. But, to me, this seems like it would avoid a lot of conflict in the future, e.g. someone wanting to sell out, but wanting to get back what he paid, plus a fair appreciation.

Sorry if it seems I've been rambling. I have.

JOJ

I think it's a shame that more people can't put aside their big egos and learn to cooperate with others, so that more of these sharing situations would work.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2001

I do think it would work, if the people involved wanted it to work bad enough. Like Earthmamma said, respect, would be the key issue. Some people ARE secure enough in themselves and their own beliefs not to have to push it on others. And Sharon has said so many times, private things are private, we don't need to discuss everything, can't we have our private lives to ourselves? People have to want to refrain from starting up arguments. I can walk over and split someone's wood and stack it in exchange for some eggs without spouting out every belief that I have. Really, it's none of my business what that person believes or dosen't believe. Are we mature enough to keep friends that aren't a mirror of ourselves?

I see it as like 80-100 acres of forest, meadows, streams, dirt roads and individual homesteads. Ideally, the whole chunk would be in some sort of trust, never to be sold. Homesteads far enough apart to have your own privacy, barn, meadow, etc. If a family chose to leave, they leave, whatever they have built and couldn't take with them stayed. There are many portable housing options for ones who just weren't sure, and wanted to try first. Make it clear from the get go.

I see a very large community kitchen and clubhouse, for canning and weekly meetings, with a board listing everyone's extras and what they are in need of to trade. I think it is important to ask people what they are good at, and what they are not, and use the talents that each has, and what that person enjoys doing. We all aren't good at everything. I can split wood all day but I'm a lousey cook.

One to have beef, one to have chickens, one a sawmill, one a baker, one a mechanic, one horses for work and riding, gardens everywhere, the list is really endless.

People would just have to sit down and discuss income making projects. Mushrooms, vegetables, lumber (fallen trees could be brought in), livestock, plants, fruit, nuts. And if someone had to work off the farm for some side jobs, then they did. It would be up to them. I don't think people should have to give up their personal money to the farm, many places are like that, and I don't agree. If I want to buy a mule with my own money, I can, and it's my mule.

Maybe the first batch of mushrooms would buy a tractor and baler, and so on. If you raised the beef, then I would have to buy my 1/4 or trade something fair you needed and agreed. I would not expect it free. Dogs should stay at home, not run loose, just as any good neighbor anywhere. Off the grid, that way no one can owe the electric Co. money and not pay. OK, that's quite a bit of ideas for one morning. This is fun. I like thinking and dreaming. It doesn't hurt anything or anyone to dream.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2001

David... I have been on the search for community for a long time... I have been in Missouri, Arkansas, Kansas, Iowa, Minnesota, and Wisconsin looking for land to settle on despite community...or looked at existing communities... and tried working with friends here too...

however, nothing seems to transpire... maybe I'm too picky...

the last place we checked on this winter was near Joy... and the couple wanted us to do all this work for rent... for they could do basically nothing!!! now I don't mind working and I'm a hard worker... but I want something for my work if at all possible... not to benefit just one couple as proposed...

I know one community near Winona, Minn... that seems to be working... and have been going for many years... the folks all have "their" piece of land... there homes are all grid free... they raise a community garden and all work in it... but their incomes are based on what they the individual families want and need... many are homecraftsmans too...

the old order amish???? yes, most of their communities are long standing... however, the community that I live in disbanded for good last year after they could not agree on the basics of community... they were almost worst than the 'english' arguing.... they were down right nasty to one another... and to think there were well over a 100 families here less than 9 years ago...

if you notice or watch the amish... they move around a heck of a lot... due to disagreements within the community or settlement.... as they go to a new or different settlement with rules in accordance to their desire of living...

I know many, many old order amish that have better luxuries than me!!!! gas fridge and stove.... running water in the house... you name it...

I'm not trying to put amish down... that is not my intent... however, to many folks think that amish are great examples of community... and would buy almost anything from the amish because they made it...

I have many dear amish friends... and I admire them... however!!!!

I do know that community can exist... however, for over 200 years Americans have pushed their independence so much that "we" have lost the sense of community... as it was in early Europe... everyone lived together in villages and farmed the land around the village... where one helped one another and etc.... of course, it that was so great... why did they come here???

community is a touchy subject and an adventure I'm sure...

if anyone has keys to making one successful...or how I should change my views.... I'm up front and in the front row ready to listen!!!!

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2001

Here is a source that you all might find interesting: http://www.cohousing.org/

I subscribe to the magazine, Fine Homebuilding. I love house plans, and details, and articles about the building trades, even if I will never use/have most of it. The most recent issue is a special one, comes out once a year, and it's called HOUSES. They feature several (5-6) houses, no articles on sheetrocking, or a better table saw, or any of that. Anyway, there was a very interesting article in it about the development of a co-housing community. The author of the article was the developer as well. It was built in Martha's Vineyard. I know that's a very expensive area, so that wouldn't apply to most homesteaders, but there were principles used that would apply to most co-housing projects, including things like how they kept down costs of building all these homes (things like have one basic small plan and several larger versions of it, and choosing materials that were "stock" and readily available). They have small dwellings, each with its own kitchen, but not very large. Then there are community buildings, with space for things that aren't every day occurences, including a kitchen and dining hall where the community can have group meals several nights a week (with attendance optional). You could have a big commercial-type kitchen that would accomodate canning as well as these large gatherings. They also had an area for an orchard and for gardens (and homeowners could do their own plantings around their small dwellings).

One of the things he mentioned again and again was how disciplined they all had to be to stick to the plan, to reach concensus, to give up some individuality (for instance, materials choices for the houses), to think of others in the group. That would be VERY important.

-- Anonymous, May 08, 2001

Yarrow-I brought up the amish and should answer your questions,but I won't! HA!

Sorry,but it's planting time and I'm way behind.I sneak on here during mealtimes.Yeah,I know I shouldn't be eating at the computer. Nick finds out,I'll get lectured.

However,you are in luck! This topic was covered over on CS a few months back.Don't know where it's filed,so look under religion I guess.I'd give heavy credence to Lesley's comments.She worked and socialized with them,few of the english do. I miss Lesley.

Ken S. had recommended a book to me, and I'm too foggybrained to remember it.I think he posted it on the thread,tho.

I grew up in the heart of PA Dutch Country,and knew the old order amish who have stable communities and who have for, literally, 200+ years. I understand the newer communities are more problematic and more apt to follow more modern ways,as would be expected.

Hope this helps.

-- Anonymous, May 09, 2001

Yes, it's true that the Amish do it, but they have a religion holding them together and rigid rules about almost everything. It's not really the kind of model I would strive for. I'm more in favor of the "Village" kind of idea, where everyone has their own expertise to offer, their own space, but common land too.

I also wonder if the concept of sharing is something that the mainstream no longer finds attractive. We offered the use of our tiller to a neighbor once when he told us he was thinking of starting a garden. He replied that if he needed one he would buy one! Never did start his garden.

-- Anonymous, May 09, 2001

Amen David!!! I can tell you that all is not quite as it SEEMS with the Amish. I used to really have romantic notions about their life style until we became more intimately involved with them spiritually. No Thank you!!!! They have rules about who will make the rules beyond anything anyone of us could possibly comprehend. I have neighbors that are Amish that I love dearly but I no longer would want to BE Amish.

-- Anonymous, May 09, 2001