I am using a rubble trench foundation on our cordwood house and would like to pour the 9" concrete beam of the foundation, using the sides of the trench as the forms. Instead of messing with boards, etc. Can anyone with REAL foundation experience give me a reason why I shouldn't do this? Basically the top of the concrete would be level with the top of the ground and building from there up. I don't need any tips on cordwood, just foundation info please.

-- JC (survivors00@hotmail.com), May 10, 2001

Answers

Response to Foundation question

JC (are you really Jesus Christ (sorry, bad joke:) I do have "real" experience with foundations. I am a semi retired general contractor. I did not specialize in foundations, but I've poured plenty of them, using many different methods, depending on the situation.

I'm not completely sure what you mean by a rubble foundation. I THINK you mean that you're filling a trench with rocks, broken bricks, or some such. Right? But then, you're incorporating a concrete beam under this/surrounded by this? What?

What are the horizantal and vertical dimensions of this beam?

I'll be glad to share my expertise, if you give me a little more info.

I can also tell you how to make the foundation way stronger than a "normal" one, with a very small investment. (I ended up saving a house, and saving several thousand bucks when a landslide tried to do its thing on one of my rentals during the New Years Day "flood" of 1977, because I had used this method in my foundation. The extra cost for this, when I built the house in 1993 was less than fifty dollars!

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), May 10, 2001.

Response to Foundation question

Heh, no I'm not that pretentious, but I hear that all the time. Don't talk about Jesus, or this will get deleted! =) Ok, the rubble trench is Frank LLoyd Wrights design, and in my case will be a trench about 19" deep, sloping to provide drainage via slotted black drain pipe out to grade. No water, no frost heaving. The trench is 24" wide and the cap of concrete will be poured on the gravel. Think I can use the earth as a form instead of the cap being above grade? Would it heave at all? I'd like to hear how you made the foundation stronger. I call this a ring beam because the house is round and it will be a ring of concrete as the foundation, with a smaller ring inside to support the joists. Let me know your advice.

-- JC (survivors00@hotmail.com), May 10, 2001.

Response to Foundation question

PS, this is in Kentucky, so there's not much heaving anyway.

-- JC (survivors00@hotmail.com), May 10, 2001.

Response to Foundation question

JC:

For a while I thought that was my name. My boss used to frequently use, "Jesus Christ, Ken..."

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), May 10, 2001.

Response to Foundation question

I'm not sure I'm clear on what you are doing, but a consideration would be termites with the foundation even w/the surrounding ground...especially w/a cord wood home...seems like the walls should start at least a foot up off the ground. Maybe if you spray good? I'm sure termites are pretty common in Kentucky.

-- JimR (jroberts1@cas.org), May 10, 2001.

Response to Foundation question

Look, no offense to anyone posting here, but I only want info on the foundation question, if you have any experience. I don't need ideas or other questions, so the thread doesn't get off topic.

-- JC (survivors00@hotmail.com), May 10, 2001.

Response to Foundation question

Who could take offense when answering your question with a valid concern - but I digress, you know that already.

-- Willy Allen (willyallen2@yahoo.com), May 10, 2001.

Response to Foundation question

This is why I don't read or post on this board anymore. A bunch of useless banter. You all act like a bunch of bitchy children. I never asked for anyone's advice on termites or any other damn thing. If I needed it, I would have asked for it. A simple answer or advice on a simple problem, not other questions you have about my house, nor the damn Jesus jokes, either. I will deal only with the first person who responded, who thank god, actually has EXPERIENCE, and was helping to answer my question. Goodbye, fools.

-- JC (survivors00@hotmail.com), May 10, 2001.

Response to Foundation question

What a jerk, good riddens.

-- JimR (jroberts1@cas.org), May 10, 2001.

The feeling of loss by your absence will be felt about as long as the hole left by a hand when it is pulled out of a bucket of water...

-- Willy Allen (willyallen2@yahoo.com), May 10, 2001.

JC, sorry about the jesus joke, if that's what set you off. Or are you always this cranky?

My mom always told me, "you catch more bees with honey than with vinegar.

JOJ

BYE (guess I'm a "fool", too.

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), May 10, 2001.

At least he got out of here before someone found it necessary to refer to him as a "rectal passage" (LOL)

-- Ed Copp (OH) (edcopp@yahoo.com), May 11, 2001.

I would use thin wood (1/4 inch plwyood / $10 per sheet) that bends easily and stakes to hold it in shape. This would not take very long and not cost that much. That way you could get above grade and have nice looking finished curve. Cord wood will not last if built on grade. Good luck with your project.

-- ed (edfrhes@aol.com), May 11, 2001.

J>C> As a past building contractor I would suggest that you raise the foundation well above ground level in that rain and wind will eventually pack earth higher on one edge of your circular foundation. A seam at ground level, between foundation and cordwood walls, seems like an invitation for moisture to enter your home. The forms can be made from material such as masonite and wooden stakes; leveling it can be accomplished with a clear plastic tube filled with colored water, the water equalizes at the same hight in each end of the tubes upturned ends. Add rebar, short lengths wired together or long lengths carefully bent to fit inside of your concrete. Any rebar not in the concrete completely will rust and that rust will travel along the rebar's full length causing a shattered foundation. As you pour, jab a flat object along the out side of the pour, inside of the outer form, this prevents air pockets which are unsightly and places for moisture to form, freeze, and cause face chipping. Pour concrete all at one occasion, partials pours lead to cracked pours. Short vertical rebars may be needed to tie it all together when you start putting up walls, ask your local concrete supplier. Do not weld rebar together, that weakins it. If your putting a fireplace in also, why not pour the pad at the same time? Fireplaces gather a lot of weight and need a thicker pad, check with your locals about thickness required for your soil type. Further questions, you have my adress.

-- mitch hearn (moopups1@aol.com), May 11, 2001.

Ken

My Boss is a Jewish Carpenter (I think I can safely say).

JC wants to pour a 9 inch concrete beam on a vaguely described rubble trench, and has left us, sobbing in regret, as we were too interested in his well being and that of his projects.

He wants the advantage of our input, but only if we reply 100 per cent within the confines that HE specifies, to save him (hereafter refered to as the beggar) fom having to take a moment to choose what will be of benefit to him.

We have proven ourselves to be bitchy, child-like fools and the beggar has taught us a lesson and left us.

Willy - I'd liken the beggar's leaving more to the feeling of nursing a burnt hand in a bucket of cold water.

Ed - please don't confuse this troll with something as beneficial as a rectum.

Mitch - what a thoughtful (in fact apparently to thoughtful) reply. (Don't expect the beggar to thank you.)

JC I know you could't have read this far, but if you have any more questions feel free to ask son.

(JUST DON'T TRY TO TELL US HOW TO ANSWER YOU)

-- Rick K (rick_122@hotmail.com), May 11, 2001.

Rick, I do not think my info was too thoughtful, it was just the basics info I would pass on to anybody unfamiluar with pouring concrete. You will notice that nothing was said about hydroxing the cement, or slump tests, humidity factors, compaction factors, lateral thrust, moisture content, monolithic pour patterens, and I can dig up about thirty more factors if need be; buit building a single story cordwood wall does not approach the intenisity of knowledge needed for multi story or commercial structures. I only told J.C. what a home owner really needs to know and if he does not thank me, that means that I do not need to type a your welcome note.

-- mitch hearn (moopups1@aol.com), May 13, 2001.

JC...YOU DIG THE RUBBLE TRENCH DOWN TO BELOW FROST LEVEL WHATEVER IS CONSIDERED FOR YOUR OR ANY AREA.I`D RECOMMEND ABOUT 30"-48" WIDE FOR THE TRENCH.AS THERE IS AN OUTWARD FORCE EXERTED ON THE RUBBLE[SPLAY IS THE ENGINEERING TERM FOR THIS].YOU CAN`T BUILD ON TOP SOIL SO YOU HAVE TO GO DOWN TO A GOOD HARD PAN,TILL TYPE MATERIAL TO GET ANY LOAD BEARING CAPABILITY. IF USING GRAVEL GO WITH 4"-6"SURGE FOR THE BOTTOM .THEN PERHAPS A 2 " CLEAR NEAR THE TOP.REMEMBER TO RUN A DRAIN TILE TO DAYLIGHT ON A SLIGHT DROP FOR PROPER DRAINAGE. LET THE GRAVEL RISE ABOVE THE GROUND LEVEL ABOUT 6".THEN POUR YOUR GRADE BEAM ON THAT.RUN REBAR THROUGHT THE BEAM.IF YOU FIND THE 1/4" PLYWOOD TOO HARD TO FORM THE CURVE OF YOUR CIRCULAR HOME.RUN SMALL SAW CUTS EVERY FEW INCHES SO IT WILL FLEX SOME MORE.MASONITE WORKS WELL AS ITS THINNER.DRIVE REBAR RODS TO HOLD THE FORM UNTIL AFTER ITS POURED.PACK ROCKS OR PUSH THE GRAVEL UP AGAINST IT SO THE CONCRETE DOESN`T KICK.THE 6" RISE AND THE 9"BEAM WOULD GIVE YOU ENOUGH PLINTH.[HEIGHT BETWEEN GROUND AND TOP OF BEAM.]THIS GIVES YOU 15" OF SPLASH GUARD.I USUALLY TRY TO GO WITH 24" THE HIGHER THE DRYER FOR THE LOGS.DRY WOOD WILL NEVER ROT.GRADE SLOPING DOWN AND AWAY FROM THE BUILDING FOR DRAINAGE. NOW ON THE TOP OF YOUR BEAM.LAY ROOFING PAPER OR VAPOUR BARRIER TO STOP MOISTURE FROM MIGRATING UP FROM THE GROUND.INSULATE THE INSIDE OF THE BEAM BEFORE YOU POUR A SLAB TO STOP THE COLD FROM WICKING IN.CUT LITTLE SLITS IN THE STROFOAM TO HELP IT BEND AROUND THE BEAM.INSULATE UNDER THE SLAB TO RETAIN THE HEAT.HAVE ABOUT 6" OF COMPACTED GRAVEL UNDER THE SLAB AS WELL. I DON`T SEE ANY REASON FOR THIS WOULD NOT WORK.UNLESS SOIL CONDITIONS WOULDN`T BE ABLE TO CARRY THE LOAD.[IE;SOFT WET BOTTOM] I`M A CONSTRUCTION SUPERVISOR WITH 36 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IN EXCAVATION ALSO PLAN TO HAVE ALL YOUR ROUGHED IN SERVICES IN BEFORE YOU BACKFILL THE TRENCH.HAVE WATER LINES ABOUT 5' DOWN TO AVOID FREEZING.THESE COULD BE LOWER THAN YOUR GRAVEL.

CORDiallY YOURS CORDWOODGUY PS: HOPE THIS WAS OF SOME HELP.THE UNIVERSITY OF MANITOBA DESIGNED A FOUNDATION THAT WAS A GRAVEL BERM AND RAILROAD TIES.DESIGNED BY ENGINEERS FOR A NORTHERN CLIMATE.IT WAS QUITE SHALLOW.THERE IS ALSO A FROST PROTECTED SHALLOW FOUNDATION THAT PLACES RIGID FOAM INSULATION NEAR THE BOTTOM OF THE CONCRETE TO PREVENT IT FROM BEING HEAVED BY FROST.EXTENDING AWAY FROM THE CONCRETE WALL ABOUT 4'

-- CORDWOODGUY (cordwoodguy@n2teaching.com), October 26, 2001.