Yes, the climate is changing ( for Sandy in MN) and diane & Debra

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Here's the graph of global temperature trends from 1886 to present.

Global Temps

Info is from tree,ice core,coral,and historical references.I also saw one from ice cores on PBS program that went back 1000+ years.Same pattern was observed.

Lots of other info from other sources by doing a Google search on Global Temp. Graph.

Sandy-where have you gotten your info that most climatologists do not think we are in a global warming phase(re:your comment on a CS post)?My info is to the contrary.

-- Anonymous, June 06, 2001

Answers

Click here or on the above. Both will take you there Climate Temps

Jim, I think you got a glitch.Last time I had things posting improperly was over on CS. This is third time for me,recently, here on Beyond. Saw that Judy had a blip on one of her posts too.Anyone else having problems?

-- Anonymous, June 06, 2001


I fixed your post, Sharon.

You had forgotten one little ">" bracket in your hyperlink and that caused the problem. HTML can be a *very* sensitive and unforgiving mark-up language - any minor little error can throw the whole thing into a mess. Believe me, I know from personal experience... :-)

-- Anonymous, June 06, 2001


BTW, I'm finally coming around to the idea that we're experiencing global warming. I've been very skeptical of the theory but recent events have caused me to give it another look.

What I'm still unsure of though, is whether global warming is *primarily* a 'human-caused' event or a 'natural' event. I read an article not too long ago that talked about solar activity being responsible for much of our current warming trend. So, even though I'm moving toward acceptance of the theory, I don't think we know for sure what the primary cause is yet.

Also, the computer models that predict global warming should be taken with a HUGE grain of salt, IMO. Meteorologists can't predict the weather 24 hours in advance for my area. If atmospheric scientists have such great computer models that they can predict weather events 50-100 years from now then we need to get those same computers into the hands of our local weather forecasters. (grin)

Just my thoughts on the matter...

-- Anonymous, June 06, 2001


Jim Wouldn't this solar activity have likely taken place sometime in the last 1000 years,as well? If so,temp would have also spiked at that time. The 1000 yr gragh I haven't located yet but it showed the same pattern observed above,a rolling change up and down over time then a trememdous spike since the industrial age.Draw your own conclusions.

As far as computer model predicting future events,I agree with you.This graph shows the past as recorded by a number of investigative means. That's why I find it convincing.

Oh..and thanks..I must be too tired to see my mistakes,lately.

-- Anonymous, June 06, 2001


Hi Sharon. Interesting thread title. My info comes from reports in a pro-science, pro-technology, pro-free enterprise newsletter called 'Access to Energy' (www.accesstoenergy.com). I subscribed for many years and learned much that went unreported in the popular press.

Among the many unreported items was a massive poll and anti-global warming petition circulated to the nation's climatology and natural science professors. The effort was funded by voluntary donations from AtE subscribers. The poll/petition was written and co-ordinated by Fredrick Seitz, past president of the National Academy of Science and president emeritus of Rockefeller University. Also involved was the Oregon Institute for Science and Medicine (info@oism.org), and the George C Marshall Institute(info@marshall.org).

Over 19,000 recipients signed and returned their petitions. The article with a breakdown of numbers and percentages is at home so I can only quote from (imperfect) memory - the scientists overwhelmingly rejected both the scientific basis for global warming and the Kyoto treaty.

Another source exposing skewed test results is a book - Silencing Science - available from Backwoods Home Magazine. I have not read it, but the reviews laud its humorous treatment of serious subjects. Nobody laughs about these things, they're always grim. Might be worth a look just to see how someone can lightheartedly chuckle at our planetary doom.

You know, if I relied only on the popular press for information, I would probably also believe in the catastrophic effects of virtually everything we do. Something I've wondered about many times is - why is the media so one sided? I have some theories on this, but I guess that is another thread. Sandy

-- Anonymous, June 06, 2001



Sandy:

Prior to today I hadn't heard a thing about "Access to Energy" nor did I know anything about Dr. Robinson. But I did take a little time to look at his site and I have to say I'm a little suspicious. I did see all the people listed who supposedly signed this petition but none of the links worked when I tried to see what states these signers came from. Also, it was stated that "2,660 physicists, geophysicists, climatologists, meteorologists, oceanographers, and environmental scientists" had signed the petition. But when I clicked on the link to see their individual names the link didn't work. The same thing happened when I tried the link stating that "5,017 scientists whose fields of specialization in chemistry, biochemistry, biology, and other life sciences" had signed the petition. Now, Dr. Robinson's web site might be experiencing technical difficulties but I find it highly suspicious that I can't find out WHO these signers are. I see a LOT of names listed but no way to CONFIRM that they are who they say they are.

You're right to be suspicious of bias in the media. But we need to be equally suspicious of the biases of those trying to "refute" the media. After reading some of Robinson's articles, and some of the stances he takes on other issues (appears to support Creationism for one thing) not related to global warming, I fear he is as much a demagogue as those he decries.

I'm sorry but from what I've read so far I really can't take him seriously...

-- Anonymous, June 06, 2001


Sharon, you bark-fondling greenie... I'll respond to you tomorrow. ;- D

-- Anonymous, June 06, 2001

Closet anthropologist here, we will experience an upward trend in Earth's temperatures in the years preceding the next Ice Age, yes, it's been 10,000 years or so since the last one, so we are due! But, we will only make the warming trend even more pronounced and extreme be our excessive greenhouse gas emissions. So, the inevitable will still happen, the question is , "Do you want wider spread coastal flooding and dust storms and desert all over the middle of America, or a smaller, more easier to deal with increase in temperatures?" Basically, do you want to fry, or simply sweat more?

Our choice, Mother Nature gives us that much!!!

-- Anonymous, June 06, 2001


Sandy

Thanks much for posting the link.I'll check it out over the next few days.

-- Anonymous, June 06, 2001


Well, I've been quiet lately cause we're just swamped, but can't let this one pass by without my $.02! I quit a scientific career to do what I'm doing now, and if I got anything from my PhD it's an understanding of the politics of science!!!

Atmospheric chemistry and oceanography were my fields. I held positions at three major universities in departments with climatological expertise, and two prestigious research labs. I cannot think of one of my former colleagues who opposed the reality or possibility of global warming. The lists of scientists refuting global warming are generated primarily from the labs or finacial dependents of the energy companies, i.e. those who are paid to prove that energy production/consumption are not polluting or harmful. The majority viewpoint is better represented by the more academic scientists, such as the contributors to the Inter-governmental Panel on Climate Change (mentioned as a footnote in Sharon's original post).

A few other comments, firstly that global air temperature is probably not the best indicator of global warming, because of the huge amount of natural variability and the buffering of temperature by the planet's hydrological cycle. Ice records, such as lake feeze/thaw and glacier retreats are actually the strongest proof that global warming is for real. Secondly, the strongest greenhouse gases are the freons, the worst of which (F11, F12) have been phased out, but these take 10- 20 years for their maximum effect to take effect, so we're still waiting to see what we've done! Thirdly, as Annie mentioned, we're way overdue for an ice age, which would probably change things way more than anything we can screw up in the atmosphere.

Finally, one of the problems with funded academic research is that a scientist who gives a definitive answer would be a scientist without a salary. You have to retain questions in order to seek funding for future research! This flaw in the system means that even very convincing results can get disseminated at a trickle with provisos attached to ensure continued funding. These provisos also serve to lessen any negative implications, offering a path of avoidance by spending more money on research rather than dealing with an issue! Very convenient for governments/corporations with a business-as-usual- at-any-cost desire.

My personal feeling - we're probably doing a lot more harm through ecosystem destruction and extinction than we'll ever do throuh global warming, even though I'm convinced from the scientific evidence that global warming is for real. It's the biota that ultimately controls the climate and mankind is just a part of this feedback system. The more dominant a part man becomes, the less functional the whole system becomes.

-- Anonymous, June 07, 2001



Thank you David.I've just been on the web collecting up info to the effect of what you just said.Guess I can quit doing that,now,huh? I couldn't agree more. Obviously,I have nothing to add to David's very thorough analysis. He is right on the mark.You're a show stopper,David.

Now I know why I still come back here to Beyond.I find these people who say what I try to say,only far more eloquently than I can.Warms the cockles of my heart,I tell you!And who knows? Maybe one of these years I'll even actually manage to say something somewhat profound.Probably not.

I'll post some of the sites I found later when I can,for posterity,I guess.

-- Anonymous, June 07, 2001


Re-reading my post, I should clarify the freon issue. F11 and F12 are the biggest ozone destroyers. This is the effect that takes 10-20 years. I don't remember the effect of stratospheric ozone on temperature, offhand, seem to recall that it acts to mask warming. Other freons, such as sulfur hexafluoride have a more direct effect on greenhouse heating, and are so well regulated. The IPCC annual reports are the authoritive source of current info on the whole issue. Hope I didn't confuse anyone.

-- Anonymous, June 07, 2001

Great post, David. It's nice to have an actual scientist contributing to the debate.

Sharon:

Jim Wouldn't this solar activity have likely taken place sometime in the last 1000 years,as well? If so,temp would have also spiked at that time. The 1000 yr gragh I haven't located yet but it showed the same pattern observed above,a rolling change up and down over time then a trememdous spike since the industrial age.Draw your own conclusions.

Not necessarily, Sharon. Remember, one thousand years is an eye-blink compared to the billions of years the earth has existed. Even a ten thousand or hundred thousand year record would be an eye-blink. So I don't think it's a given that this solar activity would necessarily have taken place within your time frame.

And remember too that our sun goes through 10-11 year cycles in solar activity. It's quite possible that it also goes through super-cycles that are spread much further apart in time.

One more thing to consider is that - looking at the fossil records - the earth apparently was much warmer in the distant past than today. Man didn't exist at the time so it's of interest to know what the factors were that caused such warming then.

BTW, here are the articles that talk about solar and cosmic radiation playing a part in global warming:

Stronger sun is blamed for global warming

What might the Sun do one day?

A debate on the Sun's role in global warming

Climate feels the Sun's effects

-- Anonymous, June 07, 2001



June 7, 2001

Panel Tells Bush Global Warming Is Getting Worse

By KATHARINE Q. SEELYE with ANDREW C. REVKIN

WASHINGTON, June 6 — A panel of top American scientists declared today that global warming was a real problem and was getting worse, a conclusion that may lead President Bush to change his stand on the issue as he heads next week to Europe, where the United States is seen as a major source of the air pollution held responsible for climate change.

In a much-anticipated report from the National Academy of Sciences, 11 leading atmospheric scientists, including previous skeptics about global warming, reaffirmed the mainstream scientific view that the earth's atmosphere was getting warmer and that human activity was largely responsible.

"Greenhouse gases are accumulating in earth's atmosphere as a result of human activities, causing surface air temperatures and subsurface ocean temperatures to rise," the report said. "Temperatures are, in fact, rising."

The report was requested by the White House last month in anticipation of an international meeting on global warming in Bonn in July but arrived just before President Bush leaves next week for Europe, a trip that includes talks on global warming with leaders of the 15 European Union countries in Goteborg, Sweden.

European leaders expressed outrage in March when Mr. Bush rejected the global warming pact known as the Kyoto Protocol, an international treaty negotiated in Kyoto, Japan, in 1997, and the subject has been building as an important test of the administration's foreign policy.

In the White House's first official acknowledgment of the academy's conclusions, Condoleezza Rice, Mr. Bush's national security adviser, told reporters today, "This is a president who takes extremely seriously what we do know about climate change, which is essentially that there is warming taking place."

Mr. Bush and many in his cabinet, who discussed the subject at length on Tuesday, have been trying to hammer out a proposal on limiting the pollutants that cause global warming.

"A cabinet- level working group is still working on what it wishes to say to the president before we go to Europe," Ms. Rice said.

She said Mr. Bush would talk with the allies "a little bit about what we've learned thus far."

Without being specific, Ms. Rice said Mr. Bush was being guided by certain principles in formulating a proposal.

"One would want to be certain that developing countries were accounted for in some way, that technology and science really ought to be important parts of this answer, that we cannot do something that damages the American economy or other economies because growth is also important," she said.

In response to critics who have suggested that Mr. Bush is ignoring an issue of mounting international concern, Ms. Rice portrayed the group as feverishly committed to educating itself and coming up with a proposal.

"It has been a matter of bringing up to speed some of the highest- ranking people in this government," she said. "I would dare say — dare challenge you to find a situation in which you've had so many high-ranking people sitting there week after week after week, understanding the challenge that we face in global climate change, everybody from the vice president, the secretary of state, the secretary of interior, secretary of agriculture. It has been quite something to see all of these people grappling with the issue."

Administration officials have said privately that the White House could have handled the matter with greater tact, and Ms. Rice conceded as much today.

"The president had made clear when he was a candidate that he did not believe the Kyoto Protocol addressed the problem of climate change in a way that the United States could support," she said. "In retrospect, perhaps the fact that we understood that we had already said this was not immediately observable to everybody, and it might have been better to let people know again, in advance, including our allies, that we were not going to support the protocol."

This was unusually blunt talk from a White House that until now has fastidiously avoided the phrase "global warming" and repeatedly expressed doubts about the clarity of the science underlying the theory that emissions from smokestacks and tailpipes were heating the atmosphere in ways that posed a threat.

In an indication of the headwind that Mr. Bush is sailing into next week in Europe, the journal Science, published by an American scientific organization, recently carried an open letter signed by 16 prestigious scientific panels in countries around the world calling for "prompt action" to reduce the gases like carbon dioxide that trap heat like in a greenhouse.

The increase in temperatures, the editorial said, "will be accompanied by rising sea levels, more intense precipitation events in some countries and increased risk of drought in others and adverse effects on agriculture, health and water balance."

It continued, "We urge everyone — individuals, businesses and governments — to take prompt action to reduce emissions of greenhouse gases."

Many international business executives have been pressuring the administration to move more aggressively on the issue. And so has a powerful band of Mr. Bush's closest advisers, including Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, Ms. Rice, Treasury Secretary Paul H. O'Neill, and Christie Whitman, the administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency.

Today's report reflects the increasing certainty of the scientific community here and abroad that the warming of the last 50 years is probably because of the increase in greenhouse gas concentrations. The panel said the degree of confidence in this conclusion was "higher today than it was 10 or even 5 years ago."

Still, it said, large uncertainties limit predictions of the extent and consequences — good and bad — of future warming. But it affirmed the scientific consensus that human- caused climate warming could well be a dominant environmental problem throughout the new century, depending on how fast the gases accumulate in coming decades.

"Human-induced warming and associated sea level rises are expected to continue through the 21st century," it said.

And it said that "national policy decisions made now and in the longer-term future will influence the extent of any damage suffered by vulnerable human populations and ecosystems later in this century."

The report thus all but eliminates one reason the administration has been using to forestall any action on global warming.

And it deals a strong card to Democrats on Capitol Hill who have long sought more aggressive action on global warming. Senator John Kerry, Democrat of Massachusetts and a leading advocate of action said of the report, "It confirms in stark terms the reality that many of us had accepted a considerable amount of time ago and refutes an effort by the White House to seek some sort of escape hatch from that reality."

Senator Chuck Hagel, Republican of Nebraska and a longtime critic of the Kyoto Protocol, instead highlighted the uncertainty mentioned in the report and drew the opposite conclusion of Mr. Kerry.

"This report is certainly not a prescription for the drastic measures required under the Kyoto Protocol," Mr. Hagel said in a statement.

Nonetheless, in a nod toward the unanimity of the scientific community, he added: "This report does provide us with enough evidence to move forward in a responsible, reasonable and achievable way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. It provides us with a basis to move forward with an alternative to the Kyoto Protocol."

Environmentalists hailed the report as a significant step in the long effort to force the United States to curtail greenhouse gases. Phil Clapp, president of the National Environmental Trust, said, "The president can no longer wiggle out of aggressive action by arguing that the science is inconclusive."

Mr. Clapp also suggested that the report called into question Mr. Bush's proposed energy plan, which seeks to step up production of coal, oil and gas-fired power plants.

"This makes the president's energy plan look completely irresponsible," he said.

Mr. Clapp said environmental groups had estimated that if the energy plan was fully put into effect, it would increase the pollution that causes global warming by 35 percent over the next decade.

The report was written by 11 atmospheric scientists who are members of the National Academy of Sciences. The authors included Dr. Richard S. Lindzen, a meteorologist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, who for years has expressed skepticism about some of the more dire predictions of other climate scientists about the significance of human-caused warming.

The report was requested on May 11 in a letter to Dr. Bruce Alberts, the president of the National Academy of Sciences, from John M. Bridgeland, deputy assistant to the president for domestic policy, and Gary Edson, deputy assistant to the president for international economic affairs.

A statement from the academy today said, "The White House requested this fast-track review of the state of climate science in preparation for international discussions on global warming scheduled to take place in the coming weeks."

Initially, the White House asked two questions of the academy: What are the greatest strengths and weaknesses in the science pointing to human-caused warming? And, are there significant differences between the full scientific analysis completed recently by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, sponsored by the United Nations, and the final executive summary?

There have been three assessments of global warming by the international panel since 1990, and each has drawn a more conclusive picture than the last of the link between human activities and the prospects for significant harm to agriculture, ecosystems and coastlines.

But conservatives in Congress — notably Senators Hagel and Larry E. Craig, Republican of Idaho — and groups representing industries whose business depends on fossil fuels have long criticized the findings of the international panel as biased, pointing particularly to differences between the voluminous chapters on complicated scientific points and briskly worded summaries that tend to influence policy.

The panel, led by Dr. Ralph J. Cicerone, the chancellor of the University of California at Irvine, met initially in California and spent the next weeks intensively sifting the existing science.

The report does provide some ammunition for critics in its description of the conclusion of the international climate group. It concluded, for example, that the international panel had a tendency in its executive summary to understate caveats and focus on the harsher possible consequences of climate warming. But over all, the panel described the international work as "admirable" and robustly supported its conclusions.

In a telephone interview today, Dr. Cicerone said he hoped the report, by spelling out the scientific basis for various predictions, would dispel some unwarranted skepticism about aspects of the warming problem.

One climate scientist who critiqued a draft of the new report for the academy said no one in the administration should be surprised at the firm nature of the result.

"They asked a string of questions that might have been appropriate in 1990," the scientist said.

"Hello?" he said. "Where've you been the last decade?"

#######################

-- Anonymous, June 07, 2001

Jim,Jim,Jim,Jim, Yes, I know,Yes,I KNOW,Yes,I know and YES,I do know. Turn off your brain for a day or two and give me a chance to catch up,would you? I don't have time!

I'll get back to you.

-- Anonymous, June 07, 2001



Sharon,

I'm not expecting you to respond to each and every point I posted - just trying to provide citations for some of my assertations.

Don't feel rushed to respond, my mother-in-law is coming today and is planning on staying for 3 or 4 days (we're going to a family reunion on Friday) so I won't have much time to devote to the forum - or this thread - anyway.

So take a chill pill, ok? :-)

-- Anonymous, June 07, 2001


I also wanted to add that I posted the "New York Times" article because I felt it was pertinent to what we all were discussing here. It's not related in any way to my other points regarding solar activity. I just thought it was interesting and thought others might find it of interest, too.

Sorry if anyone was confused...

-- Anonymous, June 07, 2001


http://www.therainforestsite.com

copy and paste. Go here each day and click free to save a part of the rain forest. I have this in my charitys links for my site but forget all about telling you all about it untill you started talking about climate.

-- Anonymous, June 07, 2001


So does this mean that sharon's rain dance DIDN'T cause us to have the record-setting May we just had??? Sheepish, you are being called to michigan by me and my husband to escort this weather BACK to washington!!! The previous record for May was 18 cloudy, rainy days and we just had 20. I am wondering if the suicide rate in Michigan is going up.......or make that the homicide rate!!! I think Gary is wondering if killing me would qualify as mercy killing or self defense. Blessings to all......call the law if you don't hear from me again. o.k.???

-- Anonymous, June 07, 2001

I did not have a chance to post this yesterday - we are very busy here. I e-mailed the Minneapolis TV/Radio weatherman and asked him to recommend a global warming website. Here's the url he sent

http://www.greeningearthsociety.org/Articles/2000/surface1.htm

I raced around the site a bit; seems interesting. Sandy

-- Anonymous, June 07, 2001


Jim,Jim,Jim,Jim :o0 Did I go and forget to put on my smiley face! Oops.

Well,it's raining so I went outside and stood in it.Did that cool me off, do you think? Not likely.I'm trying to save things on this computer. I'm aggravated.

Jim,I know I don't have to reply, but I want to. And you don't even need to explain your posting,either. I always like to read what you think,write,post. Yep,even when you disagree with me.

Grrrrrrrr. Oops,again. That just accidently slipped out :o)

Basically from what I've reviewed,the consensus is that there is global warming,just the cause that is questioned.Most believe manmade is contributing (yes Jim,even yours) but uncertainty is to how much and whether it is CO2 or other pollutants.And,I can definitely understand this,as entire environmental systems are extremely complex and largely still unknown and subject to the uncertainity that conventional science doesn't like. I once had a co worker,an extremely intelligent individual, say he was almost paralyzed to do any mgmt.practice at all, bc there was so much he still didn't know or comprehend about the environment we worked in. I understood what he was saying completely.

I still find David's comments on this being the lesser of many evils to be valid and important.And,once again,we are dealing with the symptom and not back to the root cause which is......yep you guessed it......too many people.And since JOJ covered that in and out and back and forth and round and round and round over on CS,I refer you to him and his threads there,for that discussion.

Jim,I'll address your sunspots later tonight if I can.

Sandy-I was already on that site,pretty much the same as the site you already posted wasn't it? Or am I remembering wrong? I need to go back and look ,but don't have time right now.I did briefly review your first site and was uncertain of the people represented.Let me remember,it was a long time ago...college biology classes at a major university.Nope,nothing much on climate.Environmental bio..hmmm,I think a little there. Basicall the generalists and not the specialists were represented.I like generalists.I purposely am one.But I understand the limitations as well.And lots of people have opinions,myself included. That is what a petition is. The other thing was I was not sure what the petition stated.What were they agreeing to?That there is no warming or that it isn't manmade? I must have missed that. Will look again. It just quit raining,so back out to try to get more vine crops in. I'll check it later tonight or tomorrow

And Jim,are you saying I can now out myself as a barkfondling, hetero, feminist, native, halfwasp, unfundy, scientific, spiritual, ecofreakin' alien purple people eater and not get hacked anymore? Notice I left out commie homo new age jewish liberal. Well, guess I'm not all bad :oD I'll work on it.

-- Anonymous, June 07, 2001


diane.....you still there? diane diane DIANE Answer me!!! OH NO!!!! HELP!!

-- Anonymous, June 07, 2001

Sandy: Just wanted to mention to you that I did put an Inter-Library Loan on the "Silencing Science" book you recommended as I hadn't read it yet. It was odd but I couldn't find it in ANY library here in Minnesota so I ended up ordering it from UW-Madison - I don't know how long it will take to get here...

Sharon: I hear ya.

Ruth's mom arrived this afternoon so this may be one of my last posts to the forum for a few days. I should be back by Sunday evening but send a search party in case I don't ultimately return.

(muttering under my breath)
Oh joy, I get to spend the next few days with all my in-laws... :-/

-- Anonymous, June 07, 2001


Sandy, there was an earlier thread on the greening earth society. It is another of those energy industry sponsored sites.

-- Anonymous, June 07, 2001

Hermit Jim

Calm down.Take a deep breath.Go for a nice long walk. You can make it.They are nice people. They mean well. You'll eat good! You can do this.

Did that help?

Ok here's some sites I found.Overkill I'm sure but...http://www.environmentaldefense.org/pubs/FactSheets/e_GWFact2.ht ml Facts and myths Yes they are greenies,so yes take it with some grain of salt.

Now for the scientists http://www.ucsusa.org/warming/ More facts and myths

And the CO2 aspect http://home- dome.com/Global_warm/Jan_Veizer_report.htm Co2 a factor?

That's plenty for now.I'll get to sunspots in another post.

-- Anonymous, June 07, 2001


Sandy

I finally found the actual petition signed and it did not refute the global warming premise.It questioned the CO2 component.You have been misinformed it would seem. Here is the petition from the site you gave us....http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p37.htm petition

So,given the discussion here,and the info I found that is a fairly reasonable petition for someone to sign, but it has since been apparently misconstrued. Just bc something is not mainstream doesn't make it any more or less accurate.This site is now suspect in my eyes,I'm afraid.

-- Anonymous, June 07, 2001


Thanks for posting the NY Times article, Jim. I came in here wanting to do so, and found you already had! It was forwarded to me today by a very close friend, who prefaced it with this paragraph:

"The following is a bit from an article in the NY Times today. I work with one of the experts on the referenced panel. He gets so tired because as scientists, just like doctors, they can't ever say anything is certain or guaranteed...but their data is so overwhelming that they *want* to say it."

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2001


This is a cool site, sunspot actitity since 1700's. We are in a healthier and longer lasting one going back to 1940's,but pretty significant one occurred in the 1830's thru 1880's as well. need to superimpose the two graphs. Now,how do they know sunspot activity from the 1700 and 1800"s,I wonder? past sunspot activity http://www.sunspotcycle.com/images/zurich.gif

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2001

Diane, I don't know about the Michigan suicide/homicide rate; but my cronies and I who have been predicting a big influx on our unit r/t the weather (and MORE freakin' rain coming!) have been pleasantly surprised. I guess even crazy people aren't crazy enough to get out in this slop!!

Sheepish, would'ja mind swinging through Illinois on your way to Michigan and picking up this rain, too!?

-- Anonymous, June 08, 2001


Polly, maybe they are too depressed to consider suicide??? LOL....we had sunshine yesterday and it is shining again today. I am amazed at what a difference it can make in your attitude. Maybe you will get sun today???

-- Anonymous, June 09, 2001

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