The Church and the women's movement : LUSENET : Freedom! self reliance : One Thread

**Warning, this post is about Women in the church and maybe inflammatory!**

This is a discussion on another list, and so I thought I'd share it here. I thought you all might be interested. Below is the question, and my answer follows. I should mention that this list is about gender roles in the church. Little Bit Farm If Anne Graham Lots or some other woman preaches, and extends an invitation, and men respond to that invitation by accepting Christ....Are they really saved? J. Of course they are saved, because people are not ever saved by a pastor, they are saved by belief in Christ. The Holy Spirit does the work in men's hearts, not pastors. The problem here is not whether a woman can lead people to Christ or not. The problem here, is that a woman should follow the path that God has laid down in his word for her to follow. There are so many passages relating to this in God's word, that it is beyond me why this is even an issue in the church. In America we are constantly trying to take our politically correct values and make the Bible fit around them, no matter how contrary they are. Nationally it seems we are on a campaign to make the Word of God to none effect. This appalls me! In 1 & 2 Timothy Paul sets down, principals of Christian living for in the church and in the home. Paul spends a great deal of time instructing this young man about the roles of various types of Christians. I personally think that it is fantastic that all different kinds of people have all different kinds of roles in both the family and the church. As a woman, I am absolutely tired of being told that I am to follow other women rather than God. Our media today is filled with a very tiny minority of women that are power hungry seductresses. We constantly here about the good that the women's movement has caused, and nobody wants to talk about the damage. This is true even in our churches where Pastors are in fear of their jobs should they alienate the women who want their way. There are very few pastors today who are willing to stand in the pulpit and preach on headcovering, or hair cutting, or modesty and a whole host of other New Testament principles relating to women. In fact it sometimes seems that anything that might make a woman uncomfortable is taboo, to discuss. In my opinion, the women's movement has done more to destroy the fabric of American life than just about any single trend. It has torn the fundamental roots out of the tree, and will shortly turn this country into fire wood, if it already has not. Our families have been laid waste, and our children are raised by institutions. Our husbands have been trampled upon, and their purpose for living yanked away from the without compassion or regret. It has taken the father's away from millions of children. It has decimated our country's political system till it must almost be thrown out and reconstructed again. The children of Eve are still listening to the serpent and the children of Adam are still following right along after her. And more importantly, the church sits by not only watching, but participating as well. The whole thing breaks my heart. Little Bit Farm I better get down of this box now I'm drowning in bubbles. Little Bit farm

"Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men... Colossians 3:23

"Any concern too small to be turned into a prayer is too small to be made into a burden." Corrie Ten Boom

-- Little Bit Farm (, June 14, 2001


AMEN,Little Bit! Really ticked me off when one Sunday last year I went to a parish different from my own (kids were sick , or something). The second reading (this is a Catholic Mass) was from St. Paul, about wives being submissive, etc. Except THAT part was left out! I opened the missalette, and sure enough, that "offensive" part was in brackets, and a note addded at the bottom said that this part could be omitted. AAAAAARGH! And priest and ministers go along with this, being afraid to explain the true meaning of the passage (i.e. that husbands should love their wives enough to die for them, as Christ died for the Church. It's a lot more easy being submissive, when absolutely necessary (and this does not mean obeying the husband when he tells the wife to do something sinful), then dying for one's spouse!

-- Christina (, June 14, 2001.

I'm sure your viewpoint is not very popular but I agree with you 100%. The women's lib movement, in my opinion, cost us terribly. And cost our families even more. As a young woman and mother I bought into what the world said was important (you have to get out of the house, get a job and let other people raise your children to have a "real life"). I had finally realized what was truly important in life and had given my notice at work on Friday. The following Monday my husband and 15 month old daughter were killed by a drunk driver. One of my regrets is that I never took the time off to raise my children before this happened. I learned my lesson! You are absolutely right about our churches ignoring what the Bible and our Lord have to say about women's roles. Thank you for posting this.

-- Deena in GA (, June 14, 2001.

I have to ask the question, where are all the Godly men who are supposed to be the spiritual head of the households and wives and families? Where are all the Godly men to serve as elders, deacons and teachers in the churches? It has always been the women who carried the church through the times when men were too busy to be bothered. It's the wife and mother who is left as the spiritual leader of her family when her husband fails to do the job.

I have met some incredibly gifted women preachers. They are women who were submitted under Christ, submitted under their husbands and had respectful, obedient children. They are showing the fruits of the spirit. Is this not what we should look for in a Godly woman, or should we be concerned whether she wears a babushka on her head?

When I was in my father's house, my clothing and how I wore my hair was his business. As a single woman in the church, the pastor or his wife have a duty to tell me if I am dressing inappropriately. As a married woman, I dress and do my hair to please my husband and it is no longer the concern of my father or my pastor. God does not measure my holiness by the length of my hair or my skirt. What he measures is my heart and my footsteps. Shouldn't we use the same yardstick He does?

My personal understanding of Biblical teaching on the role of women is that we are under the authority and protection of first, Jesus Christ, but also of our father while we live in his house, then under the authority and protection of our pastor and then our husband when we marry. When men, as fathers, pastors and husbands fail their duty of spiritual instruction and protection, it leaves women vulnerable to the lie of women's liberation.

-- Laura (, June 15, 2001.

Little Bit, I can see where you're coming from and ten years ago I would have agreed with you wholeheartedly. But after a number of unpleasant experiences and a LOT of thought about the subject, I have reconsidered the whole thing. Now I have a lot of questions and thoughts about this, such as:

Why is violence approved of in men as being manly, but women should not even disagree with a man, even if he's wrong? I just don't buy the line that women 'ask for' abuse anymore. I think men ought to be accountable for their actions. How can that happen if the wife just 'lovingly' submits to his abuse? She isn't loving him, she's hurting him, herself and her children. Him, by allowing him to make himself into a monster and ever giving him more and more power (and men like that never seem to get enough power. They even want to control what the woman thinks). She certainly isn't teaching him to love his wife as the Savior loved the church. Herself, onviously the abuse hurts herself, and she relinquishes her independence and her very identity in exchange for the security of keeping her husband. Her children! How can women justify the abuse that occurs to their children!? I could go on a LONG rant about some of the abuse I've seen happen where the womenn simply let it occur and "had to have faith that everything would get better". the boys learn to be abusers, the girls learn that they are worthless and deserve to be molested andused by men, and to be slapped around. Both learn to be afraid, when childhood should be full of trust and happiness.

Why do women STILL feel the need to assert their value as sex symbols, as evidenced by the kind of clothing they wear, and even going so far as to have their bodies surgically altered to please men? The fact that this is still going on tels me that many women are not actually liberated at all.< Why is a woman's viewpoint patronized and downgraded, simply because she's a woman? A man says the same thing and everyone turns to listen. Or, a man may make a serious error, a woman gently corrects himfrom the scripture and everyone either ignores her or outright disagree or even jeer at her.

Why is the bulk of the responsibility, accountability and public attention placed on one man- the pastor? It is too great a burden for one man, and I have never seen any place in scripture where a MAN should occupy this position. The pastor shoul not be the head of the church. That position should be occcupied by the Savior. I have seen churches where elders take turns preachiung and think that is much more correct. Why does the preacher stand on a podium above the congregation, as though he is the link between us and the Almighty? Why do the congregants accept his doctrine without putting it to the acid test, proving out every point in the scripture? Do they think that if they have been misled it will be OK because the preacher told them so? Why do pastors take a position and THEN find verses to back it up, rather then the reverse, searching the bible and seeing what the whole book says about a subject( rather than applying one verse, taken out of context?)

How do the women react to their lowly position? Oh, it's very simple and obvious. Just sit and listen whereever they are getting together and talking. the way they deal with it is to gossip, tearing down their men,( in the form of prayer requests, sometimes), undermining that which they have enabled to create.They become spiteful and make little cliques, and yes they sometimes do seem powerhungry, meddlesome, and nitpicky. They can't have or do anything that seems to matter so they chip away at those whom they resent.

Where are the Deborahs, Abigails,the Proverb 31 women?

I agree with you Little Bit, that we should not follow women rather than God. But neither should we follow men rather than God! For me the question about following an invitation from a woman or a man is moot. Either one is only a sign pointing to the one true light, they are not the light themselves, and any light that they have comes only from Him.

-- Rebekah (, June 15, 2001.

Excellent post Laura. I would like to add you are not told to be submissive to anyone other than your Christ like husband. If mens roles are lost in society or the church it is the fault of the man. I for one see the change for the better. I do not see this as a man woman problem, I do see it as a church problem. Most folks are very disconnected from the church because it is not the church of god, it is the church of the people, the doctrin of the people. And instead of turning to the word for themselves, they believe the hype that we are not able to understand.. Many turning to cults, and less than honorable religions. I am very tired of being spoonfed salvation, with no real learning going on.

What an utter waste of time to worry if a woman should be preaching or not, wearing whatever you want or I want....this is the whole problem, if folks would worry about themselves, immulate the Christ of the bible, this very discussion wouldn't be going on. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (, June 15, 2001.

Wow, you are brave to speak about the womens role in the church. I applaud you. I do agree with you on this issue. My husband and I are searching for a church home where this is accepted as truth. This subject of woman being under the authority of her husband is truth (bible) not of man. What is of man is turning scripture around saying a woman can teach the man, which is contrary to biblical leadership especially in the home. I believe the Lord answers prayer, of His children, especially when they are trying to live in accordance with His word. Whatever hardship we go through down here on earth is but a short time. I would rather obey my Lord and Savior and live a life in accordance to His word than go against it to obey man. God help the home. Thanks again Little bit. Its nice to see a woman not be ashamed, and happy where God has put her. Love in Christ,

-- Judy (, June 16, 2001.

I agree, Rebekah, women should not tolerate abuse, but if a woman is submitted under the authority of Christ, she won't be marrying an abuser. If her father was a Godly man, her pastor truly a shepard and she is obedient to HIM, God will not sell her into slavery. We sell ourselves into slavery when we disobey God.

I think there would be far fewer bad, abusive marriages if girls would question, "Do I trust this man to have authority over me, my children and our lives?" Again, I thank God for the husbands that are NOT MINE!

-- Laura (, June 17, 2001.

In other words, Laura, if a wife gets abused by her husband, it's her own fault becaue she was disobedient to God somehow? Isn't that kind of a high handed position, saying that wifes who aren't abused are holier and more obedient than the ones who are being beat on? The ones with nice husbands never sin?

You say If her father was a Godly man, her pastor truly a shepard and she is obedient to HIM, God will not sell her into slavery. Is it the girl's fault if her father is NOT a godly man? Often the girls who marry abusive husbands have grown up under an abusive father, and the cycle is perpetuated. Often they marry as soon as they can in order to escape a hellish home life, which I admit is not smart, but having been there, the answers are not always cut and dried. Now what is that verse about 'judge not, that ye be not judged?"

-- Rebekah (, June 17, 2001.

This brings more questions than answers when reconciling biblical prinicples with current society. It's really not too possible.

I am not married, so perhaps I am disqualified. I don't know biblically anything that says that the Preacher is to be the authority over you if you aren't married, other than church authority which isn't autocratic as I read it... Where would you say that is?? (thanks!) This brings up a lot of possible problems with the nearly complete apostasy in the majority of mainstream denominations. Follow Christ, and you'll do all right, but if you start to fixate on your hair length, you put troubles out there for those who are not saved.

A question I have is regarding dress. Now why aren't men all wearing robes like they did in Christ's time? Isn't it becuause of societal, not church, norms? What about music? I have heard many a sermon against modern music, and yet my preacher says that we don't need to go all the way back to first century Jewish traditional music??? Why not? I do agree that a lot of it more focused on the world, but I think that is who these artists are trying to reach. Is that wrong?

I am married to Christ. He is first, He is most important, and He chastises me when I do wrong, or fail to do what's right. The length of your hair, or wearing jeans instead of dresses, or a head covering over your hair is purely outward. Of course you should dress modestly and not like a harlot,nor a man, but what does that last mean exactly today? I have never worn a suit or aftershave and I don't intend to, but jeans and t shirts make better climbing gear than dresses do. Again, this gets dicey and problematic when you are talking to unsaved people. How can you say you accept Christ and repent from your sins and that's that, simple and then tell them they have to go change their clothes or cover their head and move back home or they aren't acceptable anymore? Also, had I married the guy I should have instead of laughing at him and leaving town at the first opportunity, I might see things differently, but I wasn't SAVED then.I know the pit that Christ pulled me from and I love the freedom I have in Christ.

If the Lord puts it on your heart to do that,(wear a covering, only wear long dresses, etc.) then you certainly should do it. If you do it because your husband tells you that you best make sure that he is indeed a godly man and not a puppeteer. I have seen marriages where this is taken to the extreme and it is not good. I have also seen marriages where there is no authority and that isn't any good either.

God made an outline and we have failed to follow it. That is our REAL problem. #1 God

#2 Man

#3 Woman

#4 Children

How can you maintain that outline when you skip one or two of the integers?

By the way, I think the main problem with "women's lib" is that it assumes at the outset that people can free themselves, and that is flying in the face of Christ's sacrifice and rulership. It's a symptom and not the disease, if you will. The disease is what caused the symptom to surface, and now the syptom is getting blamed for the disease. The cure is Christ, and seeking after and desiring to grow in and closer to Him. HE is the same...society changes.

-- Doreen (, June 17, 2001.

Rebekah, what I mean is, if a woman was raised by a Godly father in a church family with a pastor with a shepard's heart, it is less likely for her to unfamiliar with the Will of God. Is it God's will for a young woman to marry an abusive man? Of course not! Why would a Christian woman marry an abusive man? Because she is following her self-will and not God's will. Being out of God's will is SIN. It is rebellion against God.

I am not saying abuse is her fault, but it is a choice a woman makes in who she will marry. Nobody forces her to say "I do." It's not like these guys can hide the fact that they are abusers from God, so why wouldn't you wait for God's choice for your spouse?

I also believe it is sin for a woman to tolerate abuse of herself and her children. This is not God's will either. If a man does not cherish his wife and follow God's instruction, he has already broken the marriage vows, so why would a wife be obligated to that? She sinned once by marrying him, should she stay and pass generational sin onto her children, too?

I don't buy into women being victims over and over again. At some point they need to take responsibility for their choices to be out of God's will for their lives. The only ones that have authority over our lives is those that we give the authority to. In my life, that is God and my Godly husband that God chose for me.

-- Laura (, June 17, 2001.

This is a post I accidently e-mailed to Rebekah several days ago. I actually intended to put it here.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little Bit Farm (, June 19, 2001.

Sorry forgot to paste.

There is nothing in God's word that indicates a woman should endure abuse from her husband. In fact, the husband is held to higher standard than the wife. In a biblical, Christian marraige there is never abuse by either husband or wife. Gods word teaches that both marraige partners are subject. The woman is in subjection to the husband, and the wife is subject to her husband. Here are some verses with notes. My comments are denoted with ***

1 Corinthians 7:3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. *** And here we are told the husband should be benevolent toward his wife. Abusive husbands are not benevolent. We are also tole elsewhere that christians will be known by their fruits. We cannot judge another's state with God, but we can discern whether someone is behaving in a manner consistent with the calling they claim to have. If a woman is married to a man who is repeatedly committing the sin of abuse. If a woman has talked with her husband and then the elders of her church, and then the church itself. If He then continues in the sinful behavior of abusuing his wife without true repentance, then I believe she should leave him at once. I do not believe however that she should divorce him, and remarry, as that is fornication.

1 Corinthians 7:4 1 Corinthians 7 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. *** Marraige is a mutual lifetime covenant of servanthood, one toward the other. It is esteeming the other higher than oneself.

1 Corinthians 7:10 1 Corinthians 7 1 Corinthians 7:9-11 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

1 Corinthians 7:11 1 Corinthians 7 1 Corinthians 7:10-12 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

1 Corinthians 7:12 1 Corinthians 7 1 Corinthians 7:11-13 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

1 Corinthians 7:13 1 Corinthians 7 1 Corinthians 7:12-14 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

1 Corinthians 7:14 1 Corinthians 7 1 Corinthians 7:13-15 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

1 Corinthians 7:16 1 Corinthians 7 1 Corinthians 7:15-17 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

1 Corinthians 7:27 1 Corinthians 7 1 Corinthians 7:26-28 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.

1 Corinthians 7:33 1 Corinthians 7 1 Corinthians 7:32-34 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

1 Corinthians 7:34 1 Corinthians 7 1 Corinthians 7:33-35 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

1 Corinthians 7:39 1 Corinthians 7 1 Corinthians 7:38-40 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 11:3 1 Corinthians 11 1 Corinthians 11:2-4 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1 Corinthians 11:5 1 Corinthians 11 1 Corinthians 11:4-6 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

1 Corinthians 11:6 1 Corinthians 11 1 Corinthians 11:5-7 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

1 Corinthians 11:7 1 Corinthians 11 1 Corinthians 11:6-8 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

1 Corinthians 11:8 1 Corinthians 11 1 Corinthians 11:7-9 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.

1 Corinthians 11:9 1 Corinthians 11 1 Corinthians 11:8-10 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

1 Corinthians 11:10 1 Corinthians 11 1 Corinthians 11:9-11 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

1 Corinthians 11:11 1 Corinthians 11 1 Corinthians 11:10-12 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 11:12 1 Corinthians 11 1 Corinthians 11:11-13 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

1 Corinthians 11:13 1 Corinthians 11 1 Corinthians 11:12-14 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

1 Corinthians 11:15 1 Corinthians 11 1 Corinthians 11:14-16 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

1 Corinthians 14:35 1 Corinthians 14 1 Corinthians 14:34-36 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Ephesians 5:22 Ephesians 5 Ephesians 5:21-23 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

Ephesians 5:23 Ephesians 5 Ephesians 5:22-24 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. *** And here we have the order of the family. The husband occupies his place under Christ, and the wife occupies her place under her husband. Both the husband and wife have their roles, but as brothers and sisters in Christ, each is also submitted to the other in Love.

Ephesians 5:24 Ephesians 5 Ephesians 5:23-25 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Ephesians 5:25 Ephesians 5 Ephesians 5:24-26 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; *** Here we have the job of the husband, to love the wife. And not only, just love her but love her with the same depth of responsibility and caring that Christ loved all of us. The husband carries the greater responsibility. He is the instigator of love in the family, and through his love, he earns his family's loyalty and submission.

Ephesians 5:28 Ephesians 5 Ephesians 5:27-29 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. *** Not only should the husband love his wife like Christ loved the church, but he should love her and protect her even as he would his own body. Just as he would move out of harms way with the commitment born of fear, he should also protect his own wife just like that.

Ephesians 5:31 Ephesians 5 Ephesians 5:30-32 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

Ephesians 5:33 Ephesians 5 Ephesians 5:32-34 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Colossians 3:18 Colossians 3 Colossians 3:17-19 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

Colossians 3:19 Colossians 3 Colossians 3:18-20 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

1 Timothy 2:11 1 Timothy 2 1 Timothy 2:10-12 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1 Timothy 2:12 1 Timothy 2 1 Timothy 2:11-13 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 2:14 1 Timothy 2 1 Timothy 2:13-15 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1 Timothy 3:2 1 Timothy 3 1 Timothy 3:1-3 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1 Timothy 3:12 1 Timothy 3 1 Timothy 3:11-13 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

1 Timothy 5:9 1 Timothy 5 1 Timothy 5:8-10 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man.

1 Timothy 5:16 1 Timothy 5 1 Timothy 5:15-17 If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.

Titus 1:6 Titus 1 Titus 1:5-7 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

Titus 2:4 Titus 2 Titus 2:3-5 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

Titus 2:5 Titus 2 Titus 2:4-6 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

1 Peter 3:1 1 Peter 3 1 Peter 3:1-2 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

1 Peter 3:5 1 Peter 3 1 Peter 3:4-6 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:

1 Peter 3:7 1 Peter 3 1 Peter 3:6-8 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

*** Now I can hear the questions. Many will say that there are very few men out there like those spoken of above, but for every lacking man I can show you the same number of women. I Titus above the older women are instructed to teach the younger women how to love their husbands. If a woman has the right attitude toward her husband, then he will likely "be won by the conversation of his wife". This does not mean that there are not some men out there who are determined to turn their backs on God, nor does it not mean that it won't ever be necessary to have a time of separation in some marraiges in order for one partner to recognize his or her responsibilities, but the vast majority of marraiges are lost do to ungodly selfishness. As for me, I have a husband who is as committed to a godly marraige as I am. He gladly takes his place at the head of our household, and I gladly allow him to carry that responsibility. In return, my husband loves me above everything, except the Lord. When we were married, we knelt and asked God to be the head of our household. We both submitted ourselves to his leading in our home. This is not to say that either one of us is perfect, we're not! I am headstrong and stubborn. I have to work, to control my will. My husband has to work to control his , but we always come back to what we know is the path that God laid down for us. I am very very happy. I am truly blessed. I have been married 17 years. My parents will celebrate their 40th next year. My mother's parents died after 63 years of marraige, and my father's parents have been married 64 years and going strong.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit farm (, June 19, 2001.

I believe God is still able to answer the prayers of a righteous man. I is funny how people will pray for miracles, finances, their family. Oh yea, I will pray for you so and so, but come time to give advice about should a person stay with their spouse, and its oh divorce that abusive person. We are not to break a vow to God. And I think it is about blasphemy to assume that God will not protect us. If a woman or a man is in an abusive relationship, call upon Our Father who is in heaven, ask for help...just like anything else...He is there, He is our fortress, through the good and the bad...He loves us, and will not forsake us...HEY PEOPLE GOD STILL ANSWERS PRAYER!!!

-- Judy (, June 20, 2001.

I have just one more question for the ladies who think that it is either a woman's own fault if she gets abused, or that if she submits or prays properly, the abuse will not occur. My question is this- have you ever been abused (and I don't mean just yelled at once), really abused, by a parent or a spouse? Because seriously, it doesn't seem like you're been there.

-- Rebekah (, June 20, 2001.

Rebekah, I was abused for many years. But I can HONESTLY say that I haven't been abused in over six years now. Also, I wasn't close to the Lord, I was very rebellious towards my role in my marriage. Now...I just live according to the will of God, and try and be obedient to His word. My husband also now is taking his role as spiritual leadership in the home...Thank God for answered prayers. 1 Peter 3:12-18 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled: But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit...This whole Chapter 3 in 1 Peter deals with a wife being in subjection to her own husband. All through scripture, you can see how God has answered prayer. You can also see what happens when man trys to help God. Many years people tried talking me into leaving my husband, close friends and relatives...we will be married 18 years come Jan. I think verbal abuse can feel just as or more painful than physical abuse. I really feel for anyone that is in an abusive relationship. I made the decision to stay with my husband...I took that vow before God, I vowed I would be there for him through better or WORSE. But in 1 Corinthians 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. If you noticed PLEASED TO DWELL WITH HER, let her not leave him.

Love in Christ, Love in Christ,

-- Judy (, June 21, 2001.

Hello ladies, I was just pasing thru and was very fortunate to find this discussion. How about a male perspective from not an average male born-again Christian.

I for one could never make a woman submit to me - it's not in my nature, although I do not believe that feminism works either but segregates. I believe that verse in the Bible "women submit to your husbands" has been taken out of context, and may even be an incorrect translation of the original Hebrew transcript. But I would really need to do some indepth research on this topic (ie consulting the Holy Spirit) to be totally sure - since I do not wish to accuse God of being a liar. Men make mistakes not God. I have heard so many takes on this verse. People never say 'Man submit to God'. How can man submit to God if he behaves like one, or even if he doesn't, but has that status? If a woman should submit to her Husband despite his Christian status, and God, then isn't she (You guys) submitting to 2 God's - one mortal the other immortal? Should woman serve God and mammon? I don't think so!! We are equals - I have always lived by that TRUTH, depsite our natural familial roles which are vital to Gods plan. Yes we are different in that respect, but womens roles in the church (ie. not a nice white building) are not defined by GENDER. Afterall, the Spirit of God has NO gender. Therefore our roles in Gods church are the same - to heal the sick, preach and teach according to the 5-fold ministry!!! I believe womens roles in the church have been so ill-defined and hidden by "Man's Church" that the church has become a prison for many women. I have seen some great women submit to such absolute male foolishness that it makes me want to vomit - just as Jesus spoke of the luke-warm Christian (another fiery topic of great interest). Women have such a great part to play in Gods church. The fact that Jesus was a male was more properly due to the times he was born in, and nothing much really has changed in contemporary, carnal society.

Check this out: Jeremiah 31:22 "How long wilt thou go about, Oh thou backsliding daughter? for the Lord hath created a new thing in the Earth; A woman shall compass a man."

Here God speaks about shaking up His church, "backsliding daughter" actually refers to the backsliding church of today, and the "new thing in the Earth" is refering to womens New role in Gods church - leading men. We are currently living in a time of female emancipation with female presidents and Prime Ministers etc etc. A time when women can actually be used by God, because God has had enough of Man's backsliding.

Eve may have taken the first bite - but - Adam was the first to accuse her of his wrong doing.

Here's another little tid bit I read in one of Roberts Lairdons books. Did you know that the Bible only mentions of 3 arch-angels?; Lucifer, Michael and Gabriel, all male - TRUE. Lucifer who rebelled against God and became S_t_n is therefore masculine. It appears to me then, that S_t_n was cognizant of Adams appearance in the Garden of Eden since both were of masculine species, but what did S_t_n think when he saw Eve?? My take on this is that Eve (woman) is a major part in Gods arsenal, and S_t_n lured Eve first, because he was both suspicious and AFRAID of her. Hence S_t_n knew the power of offering Eve the first bite, because it would make Adam blame her and subjugate her to the position of guilty, unwittingly giving Adam power over her. Then, God took this situation and made it PUNISHMENT for them both, according to Gods preface based upon EQUALITY. This is why women have been mens subjects for so long!!!

This I believe is why S_t_n has for generations tried to hold down women, because they are a major weapon against the devils kingdom. We have only been utilising half of Gods kingdom!!!!! Until now!!!!!

What do you guys think?? I told you I wasn't the average male christian!! God made me different.

-- Just passing thru. (, April 21, 2002.

Just Passing Through, welcome to our group. You offer some very valid points of view. There is much scripture to support this also. Later I will attempt to post the supporting scriptures.

-- Laura (, April 22, 2002.

Just Passing Through, I agree. If you took all of the women and the work they do out of all the major religions, you wouldn't have much in the way of churches.

-- GT (, April 23, 2002.

One of my favorite quotes, by the way, and very apropos here:

"'Twas Eve who ate the apple. 'Twas a man who tempted her."

-- GT (, April 23, 2002.

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