The forum at the moment is probably the closest it has ever been to being terminated. All it takes is for Dave to say, "Enough is enough!" The forum is provided as a free service by Countryside Publications. When you do something for free, and are constantly being hassled about how you do it, it quickly becomes a pain in the "a.."

Folks, my advise is to back off on complaining about censorship. It exists on the forum and in just about every other media. Is Anne-marie selecting what she wants to publish or put in the trash can censorship? An editor makes that decision pretty well every day. Dave has clearly stated the ground rules in the blurb everyone is expected to read before they post a new thread.

Remember it is a forum on homesteading, not religion or politics. When a thread crosses the line into predominately being on one or the other, then it is subject to being deleted, as Dave has stated.

Hey, if you want to either cancel your subscription or not renew, it is you who is being hurt, not Countryside Publications as turnover is a constant element of periodicals. As Dave has noted to me, the same batch of mail can bring letters on how the publication has deteriorated since the kids took over and letters on how much better it is. Abe Lincoln was wise beyond his years.

-- Ken W. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), June 20, 2001

Answers

Ken unfortunately I just renewed for 2 yrs at Christmas(not to mention I normally give several gift subscriptions)....if I cancel my subscription will I get a refund? Ya'll may think a few folks canceling won't hurt....well what if some of those folks are the ones with all the experience and the ones that do a lot of contributing hmm? The last several issues I have seen something that I posted on this forum in print....hmmm I just might be someone that knows something.....I'm also a christian and a friend of Hoots. There are only so many times I can take being slapped before I get the point. You don't want my business. I just don't understand how you can have a special thread honoring Hoot and then censor him....make up your mind.

-- Amanda in Tx (mrsgunsmyth@hotmail.com), June 20, 2001.

Thanks Ken!

I think Your admonition is worth a great deal. I've only recently started using the forum, contributing questions and answers. I'm surprised by and very grateful to those, like You, Vickie, and Annie (among many others) who take time and consideration to share Your wisdom and encouragement with all of us.

When a group gets together for whatever reason there will be many divergent views and opinions. And as 'homesteaders' I think we tend to be more individualistic and perhaps opinionated than most. Sort of the nature of the beast! But those very characteristics can also help us be more open minded and accepting. When folks get to know each other through the forum it's inevitable for personal beliefs and spirituality to trickle through. Maybe, as You suggest, we need to keep the real focus of this forum in mind before posting. It's about homesteading and not proselytizing or partisan, being elitist or cliqueish.

Do You think some positive feedback to Dave would help, Ken? This must take a good bit of time for him and that needs to be recognized and valued.

My apologies to everyone if I've overstepped my bounds as a 'newbie' here. Don't mean any offense, but this IS important.

Thanks again, Ken!

Randle

-- Randle Gay (rangay@hotmail.com), June 20, 2001.

I just read the other thread from earlier which I'm guessing led to this one. Whooooooa.... I'll stand behind my posted answer even more now.

Thanks!

Randle

-- Randle Gay (rangay@hotmail.com), June 20, 2001.

I love this forum, I really do. But the way it's gone downhill lately, maybe it'd be better if you two go ahead and zap it so we can start over from scratch, fresh, free to speak our minds without being constantly censored. Right now we have to walk on eggs everytime we post something!

You point out that Dave does this for free, and constantly gets hassled for it. Please look at it from our point of view. We put in hours, days, months maybe, of work into this forum. helping other homesteaders out, asking questions, and just visitning and getting to know one another. We lend our experience and knowledge free of charge. then someone who hardly ever contributes to the forum came along and started dictating to us what we can and can't put on here. Why? Maybe he only wants stuff he can print in the magazine, I don't know.

That brings me to another point. We share everything we know here free of charge, expecting nothing in return but interactions with other homesteaders. It so happens that the forum does benefit the magazine, but whether it does or not really isn't of any concern to us. We're here because its fun. You ask doesn't Anne Marie select the material for the magazine? Well sure she does. We pay for the priviledge of having the magazine and there is only so much that will fit into each magazine, unlike this forum.

I don't know how great your losses in subscriptions from all this is going to be, probably some but not a whole lot. But what I do know is that if the friendly, sharing tone of the magazine deteriorates in favor of political correctness, the magazine will go downhill just like TMEN did.

It's also about respect. We respect JD,he earned our respect over the years that he was editor of Countryside. But respect has to be earned, not inherited. Most of us don't know Dave from Adam, he'll have to earn our respect if he wants it, and this isn't a good way to do that.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), June 20, 2001.

Look at it this way. I have been a subscriber to Countryside and Small Stock Journal for about 25 years. In that time I don't recall a single article which has focused on either religion, politics or sex, the three big no-no for most magazines to stay in business, whose focus is not one of those subject.

The forum was intended to be a reflection of the publication. If these are not printed in the publication why should they be allowed on the forum?

IMHO Dave has been very lenient in what is allowed on the forum.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), June 20, 2001.

Hi Ken i think the forum is just great.and i can handle a few religous post but it does get tiresum the same over and over. wish Hoot would go to church and testify some.Bob se.ks.

-- Bobco (bobco@hit.net), June 20, 2001.

Please don't terminate it. I have learned 100 new things just since Friday about bottle calves and dairy cows. I am still reading thru all the wonderful knowledge in the archives and I haven't even thought of printing it out. Please don't let some ruin it for the rest of us. I am still learning here!

I was going to tell them to knock it off myself this morning, but when I hit submit it was allready gone. If someone dosen't agree with rules, there are other forums, and they know where they are. I will give out as many gift subscriptions as I can afford, no worries about the loss of subscribers.

-- Cindy in KY (solid_rock_ranch@yahoo.com), June 20, 2001.

I just had to go out to the feed store and miss the offending post. I missed it when the forum split and the two new forums started. I guess I'm just too busy homesteading to keep up with all this.

-- Jean (schiszik@tbcnet.com), June 20, 2001.

Amen Bobco, Randle and others. As far as I'm concerned this is a homesteading forum and because its grown so large from just a few years ago it makes even more sense to just stay on the topic of homesteading. In the past there have been several hooplas over the aforementioned topics and they seemed to have consistantly degenerated into disputes instead of discussions.

We're a pretty politically and spiritually diverse group of people here who share at least ONE THING in common and thats homesteading. We seem to get along fine when we stay on that topic.

It seemed like those that complained the loudest about "freedom of speech" were pretty intolerant of those with dissenting opinions. Its probably the other way around too. I know I've been pretty vocal in my opposition to the prostheltyzing because it seemed the forum was being highjacked by the religious right. Some seemed to think of it as their personal "wittnessing" venue and the political correctness label seemed to swing from the left to the right. That was my perspective and I know I'm not alone in that. Thats the cause of the creation of BTS and FSR and the Christian Homesteaders Forum for those of us who want to discuss those other things with more likeminded people and that a good thing because it gives us all an outlet for those other things. Previously Hoots "bible lessons" were a short one or two line addendum to the main body of the typically homey, nostalgic look at the country lifestyle and fairly inobtrusive. I appreciate that he "Warns" us there is Christian material but lately it seems like there's been more of an intent to wittness than to share his country stories.

Oh well! Life goes on but I do hope we can get back on track and stick to the purpose of COUNTRYSIDE MAG---to impart homesteading information.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), June 20, 2001.

PLEASE DON'T CLOSE THIS FORUM! The resources here are great!

If the decision is to close the forum anyway, please just close off new posts and give us all a chance to save the information we need/want.

I guess I'll go off and start saving things now . . . Phooey!

-- Joy F [in So. Wisconsin] (CatFlunky@excite.com), June 21, 2001.

I'm pretty new to this forum and I've really gotten to love it. I have posted a couple of questions and received some excellent answers. My thanks to all of you. I agree with alot of the other commenters, this is a homesteading forum. When I come to visit this forum, I want to read about homesteading. When I want religion. I'll go to one of the religion forums. I don't mind if a religious theme pops up here and there if its part of the topic of homesteading, but I don't have a problem with removing a topic if it doesn't pertain to homesteading. I don't have anything against religion but thats not the purpose of this forum. There are plenty of religious forums, Please don't ruin this one for the rest of us.

-- Ed C (Hobotacoma@yahoo.com), June 21, 2001.

I too, love this forum, and would hate to see it ended. While I am new to this page, I have learned so much, and am looking forward to learning more.

Thank you for a great service.

clovis

-- clovis (clovis97@Yahoo.com), June 21, 2001.

This forum presents us with the same freedom of speech, with consequences, that is presented in many situations that life offers. For example, how many believe they would still have a job after speaking horribly rudely, but freely, to their boss or colleagues? Sure, we have the right to free speech, and our boss has the right to fire us. On this forum, we have the right to free speech, and Dave and Ken have the right to delete our posts WHENEVER it suits them and the stated goals of the forum. There are consequences for breaking rules.

After seeing the serious disruptions that seemed to start when politics were heating up, I have tried to go by the old guideline for polite conversation - avoid politics and religion. These are two flash-points for a lot of folks, and as has been said before, there are plenty of other places to discuss these topics. We can all find joy in our common ground, homesteading, so let’s go there instead.

Dave and Ken, I just want to say that I really appreciate your efforts to keep this forum intact and focused. There's a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience to draw from here, and it would be a terrible shame to lose that. I fully support your "censorship." If by chance too much is deleted, well, that's a lot better than giving over the forum to endless discussions that frequently grow as violent and hateful as they possibly can in a written medium. Who needs that stress when they were hoping for the soothing fellowship of others familiar with the intricacies of animal husbandry, gardening, composting toilets, etc? Let’s talk goat milk!

-- Laura Jensen (lrjensen@nwlink.com), June 21, 2001.

I've given this subject a bit of thought as I was awake a lot last night. No, I refuse to cancel my subscription! So there! I also will abide with the rules because I am a guest here. I may agree or disagree, but the fact stands that the Belangers are the owners of this forum and what they decide goes! God bless!

-- Ardie from WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), June 21, 2001.

I'm not exactly a newbie here. I've been posting and reading for over a year now though I've just recently gone anonymous for privacy reasons.

Here's my thoughts on the matter:

We all have rules pertaining to our own households. Take your shoes off when you come in or leave your shoes on. Leave the seat down or up. Wash your own dishes or leave them for the designated washer. Whatever. Point it you make your own rules for your own house.

This is the Belanger's House. This is their Party. They make the rules. I have no problem with that whatsoever. I would have a problem with people who would come into my house and start telling what I could or could not do.

More power to ya Ken. Please don't cancel the forum. If it does come to cancelling the forum. Please leave the archives available as read-only files.

-- L.B.D. (lavenderbluedilly@hotmail.com), June 21, 2001.

This is getting old very fast .I now know why I have been staying away .Would everyone please grow up and stop bitching .Go out and get a life for crying out loud.It's a shame evryone used to be great .

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), June 21, 2001.

Amen Ken W.:

This is a FREE service allowing us all a place to come to and discuss / learn homesteading topics. We are all bound to have different philosophies and religious backgrounds. Let that lay there and lets stick to the topic at hand.

If I see that religion is part of the topic, I either read it or kinda 'beep' over it . . . no condemnation, no complaining, just keep on going. I can get over it.

What I have learned on this site is worth a lot of experience. Lets all learn to share the sandbox, please.

-- j.r. guerra (jrguerra@boultinghousesimpson.com), June 21, 2001.

I have been managing on-line forums for 15 years.

The rule is: freedom of the press belongs to those that own one.

In my experience, moderated forums are good forums. Unmoderated forums end up having six participants that just yell at each other all day.

I currently run one of the largest forums on the web at www.javaranch.com. Heavily moderated by about 30 volunteers. Widely considered the best forums for the topic at hand. The site currently gets 100,000 unique users per month.

If you guys really want to get away from the forum stuff, let me know. I have a domain richsoil.com that will be happy to set up to host and manage the forums. Not only that, but I know how to work that sort of thing to direct a lot more traffic back to your site. Check out the forum software at javaranch... I'll pay for that too.

-- Paul Wheaton (paul@javaranch.com), June 21, 2001.

This forum is interesting, inforative, and worth keeping and it does have a religion catagory. Fine, let those who want to speak of religion do ONE TIME ONLY. An occasional "Praise Allah" or "Thank God"is not a problem. This is a homesteading forum, not a pulpit. There are many Christan orentated sites where you can go to preach if thats your need.

-- mitch hearn (moopups1@aol.com), June 21, 2001.

Well, I don't have time (or the inclination) to read every post in this forum so I'm sitting here a bit clueless about what's got everybody's knickers in knots.

I read perhaps about a dozen different forums relating to this or that and because of this I only skim through each looking for what spefically interests me and leaving the rest. It's a practice I highly recommend to everyone.

One thing I can say about this particular forum is that it's no different than several dozen others I've read and posted to. From time to time somebody gets their fur rubbed the wrong way about what can and cannot be said here and sooner or later somebody'll start complaining about censorship and free speech. Well, the bald truth of the matter is that freedom of the press belongs to the man who owns the press, not the fella who reads the newspaper. If you really don't like this then either start your own press or find another paper to read.

I, for one, would hate to lose this forum as it's often times given me much valuable info. Should for some reason the moderation or content here begin to offend me I might take the trouble to try to persuade the moderator or specific posters to change what offends me. If that failed I'd either then cope with the situation as it was or simply vote with my feet and go elsewhere (I've done this many times).

Anyone who can make a search engine function can find other similar forums. Backwoods Home has one, as does Mother Earth News. There are others out there as well. By and large the Belangers do a pretty fair job of running this place and I am tolerant of occasional breakdowns. A moderate amount of religious material does not offend me any more than many of you who insist on sneaking in your politics. So long as good info comes through here I'll continue to come here and share what I know as well. We are in someone elses home and it would behoove us all to remember this.

={(Oak)-

-- Live Oak (oneliveoak@yahoo.com), June 21, 2001.

EGAD MAN, Close the forum and I'll (ack,Choke) be forced back into ack, choke) watching TV.Keep up the good work for all of us sometime commenters and lurkers. From the pines.

-- ron bulinda (rvbulinda@yahoo.com), June 21, 2001.

True, I do not contribute very much to this forum but OH the things I have learned from the people in here! I would miss it but I would also keep my subscription to the magazine. When I first stumbled in here I was amazed that I had found a place where people still canned their own food, raised beef for the freezer and knew so much about chickens.. and gardening and tons of other things..I am still thankful for the helpful information on asparagus and wine making..the small things that I would never have learned on my own without your help.. I found it was okay to ask questions that seemed crazy to me and get answers too! It's a site of people helping people and I hope to NOT click in someday and see you all gone.. Nothing will stay the same as it was 83 years ago..enjoy the now and lets continue to move ahead..thanks people.

-- Lynn(MO) (mscratch1@semo.net), June 21, 2001.

Please don't close this forum. There is so much useful information on it. I learn something new everytime I log on.

If I'm reading a thread that turns out to be about religion or politics, I just back out. It's just like the TV - if you don't like what you're watching, change the channel! If someone wants to write about these subjects, they should go to a website dedicated to that purpose. I wouldn't go to a religious website and ask gardening or chicken questions!

Keep up the good work Ken and Dave and please keep the forum open!!

-- Cindy in NY (cjpopeck@worldnet.att.net), June 21, 2001.

My suggestion would be to shut down the forum for 2-4 months. The current forum archives could be maintained on the website as read- only files. Then after the cooling-off period, open the NEW Countryside forum with the rules spelled out and the warning that the forum will be heavily moderated. That way no one can whine that "they changed the rules midstream" or "we always used to be able to post this". The forum would be strictly for questions and information directly pertaining to homesteading. No politics, no religion, no jokes, no over-the-fence chats. There are plenty of other chatty forums available, or start your own.

I will be sending in 3 gift subscriptions to help replace the people who are leaving.

-- Sherri C (CeltiaSkye@aol.com), June 21, 2001.

Ken - Please don't close the forum. I don't post often, but lurk most days. I really enjoy and use lots of information I have read here. I have subscribed to Countryside for nearly 20 years. I loved the job that JD did with the mag., but he has earned his retirement. Dave is his son, but a totally different person. Give him a chance. I think he has done a fine job so far. Keep up the good work. Winona

-- Winona in MO (thompsonwin45@hotmail.com), June 21, 2001.

only got online a couple of weeks ago, after subscribing to countryside for years (i dropped my subscription to backhome years ago and have no use for motherearthnews). this site was one of the first things i looked up. i didn't even know about the forum, am not a web junkie, but i read this everyday. it's like a mini-countryside to my front door. i even gave this site tomy friend who is a reference librarian to help her at her job! i have learned tons, have had an amazing amount of help and consider this worth the entire cost of being on line. i'd, frankly, love your magazine to go out monthly!

today, i was going to actually send you folks at countryside a note of thanks for your help in doing all of this when i read this message. so here it is: THANKS! this is wonderful, a great gift.

about the rules: your house, we are playing here. if we (me) screw up, sorry. I do have a low tolerance for "preaching" to others, but find hoot and....HOOT! I can't, so far, find any offense personally in what he says, and don't feel like i'm being preached at, and am a bit disturbed my people being so sensitive. i, frankly, like to see the diversity in the world! it came through in one of brendan's postings when he mentioned his "handfasting", for example. i like knowing there are all different people of different beliefs coming together.

however, i completely respect and honor your rights as editors to knock out anything you think is too over the edge. it is a rough job, and i wouldn't want it. i appreciate deeply your efforts, and thank you sincerely for your time and energy. i hope every can show more respect for the rules (me included). it is easy to forget that this is for everyone, and we all have our special issues with different things.

-- marcee king (thathope@mwt.net), June 21, 2001.

"A FUNNY THING HAPPENED ON THE WAY TO THE FORUM"...lol

Ok, I am also clueless. In looking over the other posts I don't get it. What the heck is the problem??? The subjects are tagged if religious content is included so if somone gets offended by that..don't read it. That "IS" freedom!

I believe that the better part of the homesteaders are Christians so of course we will squak when what is believe to be our "freedom of speach" taking away...but in all honesty (and as a Christian) this is NOT a Christian site...it just happens to have a lot of Christians here. It is a "homesteading" forum. "Homesteading" topics.

We do have alternatives including the Christian Homesteading Forum..so please people, give it a rest and leave Dave alone so we can keep this place!

Remember, Jesus was tolerant of non-chiristians and those who did not understand...if they didn't get it...he just walked away. He didn't write letters and demand equal time!

-- Karen (db0421@yahoo.com), June 21, 2001.

Ken and Dave, THANK YOU!!! You are doing a wonderful job of herding this gaggle of geese. I have been on this forum for over a year now and I remember the fuss before Ken took the job of moderation. I also read about 75% of the posts so I know that you haven't deleted more than a handful of posts and your efforts have really cut down on the huppla. annette

-- annette (j_a_henry@yahoo.com), June 21, 2001.

Geeze, beating the same ole dead horse again. . . This forum is a treasure trove of information, homesteading information that is. I fully intend to renew my subscription. And as for the long winded prostheltyzers who are leaving, GOOD BYE, didn't read your stuff, won't miss it. Everything in life evolves and changes, that's life. All the religion and politics babble ruined another forum that once was great.

Please CS don't shut down the forum, it would take me forever to copy down all the wonderful information in the archives. The dead trees and ink to print all of it would cost me a fortune.

Namaste,

Namaste,

-- Judy Murray (nomifyle@yahoo.com), June 21, 2001.

I've been thinking how the latest issue of Countryside is particularly good -- cancel my subscription? NOT A CHANCE!! For you who wish to vote with your pocketbook: that is your perogative, but I think you'd be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Get some perspective! This is about homesteading. Livestock, gardening, repairs, making do & doin' without.

-- snoozy (bunny@northsound.net), June 21, 2001.

Please Please dont close this forum. I rarely post here but when I've needed help its been quick and accurate. I dont understand all the hoopala because I only read the posts that interest me. In all the time I've been reading here I've never felt the presence of a "gun" at my head forcing me to read what I dont want to. Its kinda like folks complaining about whats on TV like they cant just turn the thing off. I used to read at BWH but it got so bad I quit. I think whoever is in charge of whats on this forum is doing a pretty good job of keeping it what its supposed to be. Please dont punish the most of us for the indiscretions of a few of us. Thanks and Blessings Peggy

-- peggy carr (wclpc@cookeville.com), June 21, 2001.

Sheesh, I go out of town for a few days, and look what I miss!

Maybe forums are just like populations in general. At first you have a few pioneers who depend on each other, despite having their differences. Then more folks move in, and are warmly welcomed. Nice to have a little diversity after listening to the same old people for a while! Then a few more move in, and then a few more, and then somehow you get a few rascals and opportunists, etc., and pretty soon....there goes the neighborhood! If you then try to limit or govern the population, everyone gets upset about discrimination! So then there's little or no regulation and the place falls into shambles, as the first sets of folk try to maintain the civility that they started out with, but the rascals chose to behave like a bunch of graffiti-tagging spoilers.

When I first started posting here many moons ago, I tried to not discuss politics and religion. However, over time, I felt the need to present what I considered was a measure of balance to what seemed to me to be a rather lopsided set of perspectives. Then I deliberately decided NOT to post political or religious stuff anymore because it was getting less and less civil around here. Plus, there's a number of better places online to discuss those kinds of issues....that is, if you are indeed sincere about wanting to discuss them, and not just trolling...

At any rate, I hope the forum continues, as I still drop by sometimes and enjoy most of what I read. There's been some really fine folk who have taken the time to post their information. I have benefitted much and appreciate their advice.

Take care, all.

-- sheepish (WA) (the_original_sheepish@hotmail.com), June 21, 2001.

Please dont close this forum. I have been a countryside subscriber for over 25 years, and I have almost every copy I ever received. I will admit I liked the old foemat where they had professionals writing a column every month. I still go back to the old issues every once in a while. You young people dont remember the old times when J.D. was forecasting the biggest depression in history. I am glad he was wrong, but he sure gave us some good aduice.I still read the magazine cover to cover, even if I occasionally think some of the subjects are silly. I hope you will keep the forum going, and it suits me if all religious and political stuf is removed .

-- George Wilson (cwwhtw@aol.com), June 21, 2001.

I am a newbie on this site & I hope that it remains open in spite of some petty people. I have no problem with people's religious views, just keep your views to yourself & not try to violate my individual rights by trying to cram them down my throat. There is a time & place for everything. This site is mainly for people interested in homesteading topics. I, myself, have benefited from the advice given by the many generous people on this site. So, PLEASE,take your religious views to the appropriate site.

-- tresa lee lamb (tresalamb@hotmail.com), June 21, 2001.

Ken, Dave et al;

I don't believe it! The same old dance all over again. This forum is a living thing, it changes and evolves just like our daily lives. The one constant here is that the folks who run it try to keep a respectable balance on it's contents. I'm not worried about Hoot, I truly think that his hide is a tough as his heart is tender so I think that if he took offense to one of his many posts being deleted it's up to him to discuss it with Dave and Ken.

As far as this being being a matter of censure and a limit to free speech we all pratice this to some extent in our daily lives. I for one limited my children and myself as to what we say as not to seem offensive to people around me. This is called good manners and a respect for others beliefs and feelings. If you are so emotional as to think that a difference of opinion between "friends" should result in the cancellation of your subscription and a boycott of this forum then I truly believe that you need to grow up some or move along.

Those of us that have been here for awhile have seen this forum go through various stages (Personally I miss the Militia movement and the humor and fire that it brought) but when it came to threats against people then it was time for it to go. The same with Hoot, I love him dearly and look for his posts on a daily basis but we all must admit that his posts has changed as well. So Hoot keep on posting away and I'll keep reading them and to Ken and Dave keep up the good work and I'm positive that you'll only delete postings when you feel it to be necessary.

Jim Tanner

-- Jim T (Tanner_jim@hotmail.com), June 21, 2001.

Ok as I see it Hoot needs to be a better weaver, people who are offended need to just keep movin' ( there are thousands of posts here ya know) or take the time to post something creative, or meaningful for us all to enjoy.

If we don't master this we'll likely lose this forum, and 98 percent of us loose. 2 percent ruin it, but they lose too.

May We All Continue To Be Blessed

-- rick K (rick_122@hotmail.com), June 21, 2001.

Not only will I cancel my subscription but first thing tomorrow morning I will burn my hundreds of issues of Countryside dating back to the 80s. Censorship has become rampant!!! What's wrong with you guys? That's not the country way of life! Next thing you know he'll ask you all in the next issue to turn in your guns to the government and report to re-eduction camps to be urbanized. Was it that hard to skip over the posts you weren't interested in? What a disgrace to the spirit of homesteading!!!

-- JT (halcyonfarm@earthlink.net), June 21, 2001.

JT:

Perhaps you should wait until this coming winter to burn your backissues so you at least get some heat value from them.

Since the forum was created just over two years ago there have been 84,556 posts against it. Of those perhaps less than 20 have been deleted for one reason or another. That is an extremely small percent which I would hardly define as rampant censorship.

If you don't like the rules you are more than welcome to go play elsewhere.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), June 22, 2001.

Oh Ken, how you make me chuckle!

-- Ardie from WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), June 22, 2001.

JT- Let me get this straight, you're going to protest censorship by burning publications (a form of censorship in it's own right) which you admit (afterall, you kept them for 20 years) have useful value and knowledge to others because you disagree with the philisophical outlook of another who is only peripherally associated with them. Pretty broadminded of you. Any other books you'd like to suggest we burn by authors who weren't the good christian you seem to think we all should be?

-- ray s. (mmoetc@yahoo.com), June 22, 2001.

JT: I would be interested in buying those back issues from you, that is if you weren't just being dramatic. Please email me privately if you're interested in discussing a price. I will be out of town this weekend but back at the computer on Monday.

-- Sherri C (CeltiaSkye@aol.com), June 22, 2001.

Having always seen the value of setting up guidelines and rules to go by regarding public services, it is obviously needed in a forum as well. I would miss the forum if it ended. Like so many others, I've learned a great deal from contributors here. Yet I skip threads that don't interest me, regardless of content. I love my subscription and wouldn't consider letting it end. I hope the forum continues and that Dave and Ken realize that someone has to patrol the contributions. This is not a public utility, after all. Rules are the cornerstone of a civilized society. And "peace-keepers" are usually armed appropriately. Don't get thin skinned over this issue.

-- Dwight (summit1762@aol.com), June 22, 2001.

Hitler and Stalin loved to hold giant book burnings of books that did not agree with their ideology, people have different opinions of everything, respect other's opinions and rules of procedure, remember, it is THEIR HOUSE, you are a "visitor" here!!!! Nobody held a gun to your head making you stay here!!!

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), June 22, 2001.

This is not really about censorship. This has been turned into a censorship issue. That deflection makes it a whole lot easier to counter.

What you have is this: One individual deemed "wise" enough and held in high enough regard by all to rate his own special area of this forum entiled "Wisdom from old Hoot". CS staff and forum participants decided he was worthy of that honor.

This wise person has 208 times (I think, close anyway) posted his thoughts and mentioned his saviour every single time. The contested post, like all the others was clearly labled w/ a warning as to it's content. No surprises here.

This wise person has been allowed a sort of "editorial license" as compared to me and you. And has not abused that license w/ "Ya'll gonna burn in hell" speeches even once.

But he has the props knocked out from under him in a short sighted, arbitrary decision by one who has yet to exhibit "The wisdom of old Hoot".

Anyone have any idea why Hoot wanted a list of christians here at CS? Me either. We'll never know now. Could'a been anything. No, it's not censorship that's the issue here at all. It's more like watching a bratty nephew kick his grandpa in the crotch and then thumb his nose at all the surprised family. Simple disrespect to one who has already proven his wisdom.

So don't get caught up in the censorship issue. CS owns this board and does indeed have the right to control the content. That's been debated into the dirt already w/ Joel and others. CENSORSHIP ISN'T THE PROBLEM.

What one should wonder about is - Why would you treat someone that special so shabby? And then cop an attitude w/ "I'll take my baseball and go home if you don't like it"

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), June 22, 2001.

"What you have is this: One individual deemed "wise" enough and held in high enough regard by all to rate his own special area of this forum entiled "Wisdom from old Hoot". CS staff and forum participants decided he was worthy of that honor."

Hmmmmm.....interesting.... I guess I musta been outa town when that survey was done..........

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), June 23, 2001.

Earthmamma: Go to the category for Forum Related. Then do a Control F, then search on Hoot. You will find where a poll was taken.

John: I created a special category for Hoot because several people asked me to, and it was approved by forum participants at that time. They said they enjoyed his stories but didn't like to have to search through all of the categories to find them. Hoot started out telling his folksy stories and included a brief Bible lesson at the end, often just the reference to his favorite passage. No problem there. However, more and more lately his threads seemed to have become just an excuse to witness to others to where they were bumping the line. The thread which was deleted clearly went over it. The fact as special category was created for Hoot in no way gave him any rights or privileges beyond anyone else who participates in the forum. To avoid further misunderstandings, I will be changing the category title to Stories from Hoot.

Our attitude isn't we'll take out equipment and go home. It's more that you are playing on Countryside's playground and that playground has certain rules which are expected to be followed by everyone, including myself (and Steve did delete a joke I told which I admit went over the decency line). If you don't like the rules, as you obviously don't, then there are other playground where you can go to find rules you do like.

Forum rules are fairly simple: Threads and post need to be reasonably related to homesteading and people are expected to be nice and play fair. When they go off-focus, such as those which emphasize areas such as religion or politics, then they are subject to being deleted.

The committment will remain to keep the forum on focus.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), June 23, 2001.

Ditto here, I must have been away from the forum when the survey was taken.

Namaste,

-- Judy Murray (nomifyle@yahoo.com), June 23, 2001.

I remember an informal survey regarding a separate heading for stories from Hoot. We as forum readers were asked and the heading was added.

This is a free forum offered with great generosity from Countryside Publications, period. If you think that you are being censored by following their stated rules just say "buh-bye" and leave it at that, or post your displeasure and the powers that be will decide that it's just not worth it any longer. It's your choice, but I'll just use my delete key with delightful abandon.

Mature adults--Bah!

Stacy Rohan in Upstate NY

-- Stacy Rohan (KincoraFarm@aol.com), June 23, 2001.

I find this whole thing kind of amusing because I avoid reading the religious, the political and the sex-related posts since I come here to learn about homesteading. Guess what? This meant I was clueless about the fact that some problem was going on. I say, please keep the running the forum the way you are. It allows me to pick the topics that apply to homesteading and avoid the obvious problem ones because they are titled clearly. I enjoy this forum immensely and the ones that want to fight and whine should go somewhere else since the only places where these problems are arising is on those topics (politics, religion and sex) which really don't belong here anyway. Please Ken and Steve keep on just like you have been doing. I would hate to see those of us that are trying to learn about homesteading lose a valuable resource.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), June 23, 2001.

Ken, The first line of this thread is, (paraphrased) "The forum is as close as it's ever been to being terminated....." I don't see how that could be construed as anything other than "taking your equipment and going home".

If you look at what I said above here, I never challanged nor misunderstood the owners right to limit the content of their board. If I had to give a one word discription of this issue, I guess it would be one of Fairness?.........Respect?.......I don't know. I guess you either get it or don't.

I will gracefully accept your dis-invite to play here though, w/ no ill will on my part. This just seems to be something that was blown out of proportion and changed into a matter (censorship) that it really never was anyway. Again, either you see it or you don't.

Please don't misunderstand the following, I'm not taking a shot at you here, but changing the topic heading won't make Hoot any less wise, and it probably won't look good for you. Leave it, it the long run, when all this settles down to normal again in another few days, nobody will notice the difference anyway. Again, wishing you nor any others ill will, John

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), June 23, 2001.

i use this forum to unwind when i am too tired to work on the farm any more for the day when the kids are getting ready for bed and still to noisy for me to go myself ,i could use the time otherwise but enjoy (visiting) for a little i dont always read it all and even in countryside many articles do not fit with what i do at this time BUT they might later ,i post infreqently because when i have an answer someone else often has posted the same or similar advice ,for just visiting there are other country forums but this is the most informative many of the people here i would be glad to meet in person a few however..... well just like in real life i can choose not to deal with them .I cannot agree with everything JD has writen but i would not be here if he had not made an exelent mag.,he made a effort to create a continuity for the mag. because no one lives for ever and hopefully davewill have somone to turn to for help for a long time the problem with many company founders is they will not step down from the power position untill they are incapable of handling that position i have not noticed such a big change in the mag its still READER GENERATED and i look forward to each issue as well as the forum. i hope both are around for a long time .and speaking of time its past my time to be in bed!

-- George Darby (windwillow@fuse.net), June 23, 2001.