SSRI depression/anxiety medications

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Hi all, I hope this posting is ok. I wanted to share my recent experience with anyone interested, following Diane's depression/burnout posting. Please note this is just my experience, not a complete condemnation of drug companies.

This past Monday, at 35 yrs of age, I was taken by ambulance to the hospital. Even the ambulance attendant was concerned. My heart was racing over 150 beats per minute, for hours. It ended up being an anxiety attack. I was monitored for a few hours (blood pressure, heart rate, respiration), and blood work was done. Given my history of somewhat controllable anxiety attacks over the last 17 years, the doctor prescribed Paxil to be taken daily. In my less than great state, I went along with the doctor, accepting that I must need "lifelong treatment for a lifelong problem", as she put it. I began taking the $170 prescription that day.

Well, by Wednesday night, I was no longer the same person. I was terrified I would hurt myself and my young children. I could not follow a conversation my husband was trying to have with me. I was a robot on the outside, and a psycho on the inside. By Thursday morning I had to return to the hospital because of this medication. I, of course, quit the meds. My research online has found that some people swear by these drugs (Paxil, Prozac, Zoloft, etc.), but I've also found many who feel these drugs have done severe damage to the users.

Please, may I suggest that anyone that may be taking these Selective Seratonin Reuptake Inhibitor (SSRI) drugs for the first time try to be sure they have a responsible adult available should they need help. My doctor told me "my" drug was a new generation, with fewer side effects. But my brain didn't much agree. Please don't slam me for this, I'm sure that these drugs work for many people, improving their lives.

-- Rheba (rhebabeall@hotmail.com), June 24, 2001

Answers

Doctors only know to give drugs. I was getting depressed on homone drugs and the doc told me I had to take them for my bones. She said if the homones made me depressed she would give me an antidepressant. I finally went off the honomes and take alot calcium pills instead of an antidepressant.!

-- Debbie (bwolcott@cwis.net), June 24, 2001.

Years ago I began suffering from memory lapses. I could be standing and talking to someone and suddenly it was like my brain "reset" to 5 minutes ago and I would literally repeat something I'd already said because I forgot I'd said it. I would get lost driving because several minutes of my short term memory was just gone and the last place I remembered being was of course several minutes away from where I was by then. I was also having trouble concentrating (something I'd NEVER had trouble with before, its like having your brain packed with cotton). Needless to say I found this somewhat upsetting.

So I went to the doctor. Prozac was still a fairly new drug back then, and we couldn't figure out what was wrong. Well, maybe I was depressed, so he gave me the prozac but he cautioned me STRENUOUSLY to make sure I was supervised by someone who could monitor my behaviour while on the drug. I figured my boyfriend would do this, and explained to him IN DETAIL the potential problems and what to look out for in my behaviour.

Well, my boyfriend decided I was imposing on him by asking for his help in this matter and more or less just dropped me. Pretty much told me that when I could be normal again maybe I should call (can you say "jerk"? I knew you could ...) Even when I didn't show up at work for 2 weeks running (we worked together) he did not call either me or the doctor to let him know there might be a problem.

I was even afraid to walk out to the mailbox to get mail. Finally I called the boyfriend because I was desperate for help, and he informed me he was busy that evening with a blonde half his age, maybe I could call back some other time, but he was tired of dealing with "an emotional cripple". (I had asked him to please come get me and take me to the hospital, and it took immense effort for me to be able to do THAT much).

It was like I was backed into a corner of my own mind, watching a maniac driving my body. I don't know how to explain this - I wasn't suicidal but I was having obsessive thoughts about killing myself. What I mean by that is that there was no CONTEXT to WHY I wanted to kill myself. There was a time in my life when I experienced true feelings of suicide, and this was nothing like that. Nothing at all. It was the scariest thing. It was quite literally a toboggan ride to hell.

What finally saved me was my ex-sister-in-law called and I ACTUALLY ANSWERED THE PHONE! For the first time in weeks. She KNEW something was wrong because I was behaving so totally uncharacteristically, and almost the first words out of her mouth were "Are you taking Prozac?" She had a neighbor who had been given the drug who had the same reaction to it. She came and got me and checked me in to the hospital and within 24 hours I was much better - still forgetting things, but within just a couple of days I was totally back to normal (except for my memory) and ready to get out of there.

Ever tried to get out of a psych ward? Boy I went toe to toe with some of those folks in there, you'd better believe it.

And the stupid activities and games - like making little weavings out of yarn and popsickle sticks, and papier-mache pop bottle dolls, and this game where they asked you stupid psycho-babble questions that were supposed to teach you things. At one point I found out you were allowed to move your counter any which way, so just to relieve the incredible boredom of being forced to play this moronic "game" I started switching directions at random. Damned if the sheeple playing didn't follow my lead every single time! I wanted to grab those folks and shake them and scream into their faces "CAN'T YOU THINK FOR YOURSELVES?" AAAAAAAAARGH!

The number of times a nurse on the ward tried to lie to me - about meds, about treatment, about whether or not I was allowed/required to do this or that - was just incredible. There were only a couple like this but they were just relentless. It's like they make things up just to feel like they have power over you. And I CAUGHT them at it EVERY SINGLE TIME! Every time! And they kept trying to pull it on me! I guess they were so used to people so broken or drugged out of their minds that they couldn't deal with someone who was actually mentally stable (once the Prozac was out of my system).

And the psychiatrist they assigned me to - what a fish he was! When I told him that the Prozac had caused my reaction he told me that was unlikely because people didn't have those sorts of reactions to Prozac, and he wanted to "experiment" (he was even arrogant enough to ACTUALLY USE THIS PHRASING) on me with it to see what happened.

I was not terribly surprised when a few days after getting out of the hospital I saw him on TV pleading the Fifth. Anybody here remember Dr. Burt, the notorious "Love Doctor"? He was a gynecologist who had been mutilating his female patients for 30 years or more by performing clitorectomies and other unneccessary plastic surgeries without the patient's knowledge or consent (go in for a D&C, come out practically neutered). Well, this psychiatrist had designed the confusing, contradictory consent forms that Dr. Burt got his patients to sign so they wouldn't know just how much of their rights they were signing away. They both should've gone to jail.

About this same time the company that was making Prozac had been sued by a bunch of people who had had this reaction that my sister-in-law so clearly recognized and that you are describing now. I'm not sure why - I think it was still too new for the weight of evidence to carry it - but the drug company won the suit. And then some muckety-muck executive was interviewed on TV saying, "Its a perfectly safe drug. Of COURSE some of these people on it commit acts of violence against themselves or others - after all, they were put on it in the first place because they were mentally unstable!"

YEEEEAAAAARGH!

For almost 2 years I bounced from one doctor to another and nobody could figure out what was wrong with me. I was diagnosed with depression (I was not depressed though I was quite naturally upset about what was up with my memory), temporal lobe epilepsy, manic depression (good thing my family doctor knew me well enough not to let THAT one stick). I had reactions to every single drug I was given, some life threatening, partly because drug sensitivity runs in my family, and partly because I was being "treted" for things that weren't actually wrong with me. But a normal person on lithium - see what happens. It isn't fun.

But if they can't label you and give you a pill they don't want to be bothered with you. Eventually I accepted the temporal lobe diagnosis and just got back to my life. My memory is still screwed up (my son calls them my "brain farts") but you know what I can deal with losing a couple of minutes out of my life once in awhile a lot better than I can deal with being drugged into a state of zombiehood for no good reason.

And after all that, you know what it actually is?

I'm hypothyroid. It messes with your memory, concentration, metabolism, weight, body temp ... all the symptoms I was describing to those doctors at the time, every one is a symptom of being hypothyroid.

SHEESH!

And you know what, I worked at a place in Alabama where nearly everyone I worked with was on Prozac. They used to sit around and tell stories about Prozac. They'd talk other folks into going to their doctor and getting Prozac too. Is there anybody left out there who can actually DEAL with reality? What, just say no to drugs - unless you can get a prescription? And these people don't want to legalize POT????

You know there's even a book called "Listening to Prozac"? The author basically wants to put almost everybody in the world on Prozac.

It's a Prozac world. Scary, isn't it?

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 24, 2001.


Do you suspose that women in Huston, texas who killed her five children was on Prozac, they said she was takeing a antidepressant drug, Just a thought!Irene

-- Irene texas (IkOsborn@cs.com), June 24, 2001.

Irene, The woman in Texas, according to news reports, was on Haldol. I think this is an SSRI class drug. There's a website that's called Prozac Truth that I found this weekend discussing the bad side effects of these drugs, and Haldol is one of the ones listed with Zoloft, Paxil, Prozac, etc. Her poor husband has been all over the news describing her...and it's exactly how I felt while on Paxil.

Sojourner, I'm so sorry to hear you've gone through all of that. I've decided that as a preventative measure, I will have a yearly physical to reassure myself that I have no big health problem. This alone should go a long way towards heading off my anxiety attacks. I've almost always been "just a Tylenol person", not even any drugs for my last childbirth. I'm going to do everything I can to stay that way. I haven't had any alcohol for years (kids and hangovers don't mix). Next hurdle is to quit smoking.

Another interesting note, from the website named above: Ritalin...is it's use (past or present) involved in the recent rise of school shootings? I know years ago when my young cousin was on it, the symptoms he experienced were similar to mine on Paxil. Just wondering.......

-- Rheba (rhebabeall@hotmail.com), June 24, 2001.


Prozac saved one of my family member's lives. Antidepressants aren't a panacea, but for some people they help manage a serious illness. Also, antidepressants alone are not adequate for treatment of depression. It's a known fact that depression requires a multi- faceted treatment approach--social support, counseling, occupational therapy, stress management, relaxation techniques. Taking a medication without addressing other issues is not going to make problems go away.

As for the woman that killed her children, rather than blame the antidepressant, it makes more sense to me to wonder if her psychiatrist prescribed a drug without providing adequate supportive therapy or follow-up. This woman had five children under the age of 7, was homeschooling them. Did she get help, a break now and then? I know the demands of homeschooling little ones--I did it. If that's the case, no wonder the drug didn't work. This woman acted on an impulse--the fear that haunts many women with postpartum depression is that they will harm their child. Imagine the severity of her mental illness to actually carry out that impulse. I sense this a woman that "fell through the cracks," that her medical providers let her down and her family didn't have enough insight to see it coming.

-- amy (acook@in4web.com), June 24, 2001.



Haldol is an antipsychotic drug, in a class of drugs sometimes referred to as "major tranquilizers." It's not an SSRI. It's a powerful drug usually prescribed for persons with psychotic symptoms and severe agitation.

-- amy (acook@in4web.com), June 24, 2001.

The problem with antidepressants is that at this time there is no way to tell which one(s) a person will respond to, even within a group of medications like SSRI's. Some people may have to try several before finding the right one. My mother was one of those. Prozac was the one that finally helped treat her depression and alleviated the constant desire to commit suicide. My problem has been anxiety (panic disorder) and I've been lucky. I've responded to the first medication given (imipramine then many years later, Zoloft). Side effects can be annoying but when these drugs work, they're a Godsend! It's also not true that these medications need to be taken for a lifetime. Some people may need to but most just need their help for awhile. I just had to speak up and provide some positive experiences with these medications!

-- Diane (dshogren@uswest.net), June 24, 2001.

Amy said: "rather than blame the antidepressant, it makes more sense to me to wonder if her psychiatrist prescribed a drug without providing adequate supportive therapy or follow-up."

Unfortunately that is SOP (standard operating procedure) in the "mental health care" community. Drugs are routinely prescribed without adequate diagnose before or follow up after. I went through this myself. For instance, no one who had bothered to actually take a history would EVER have diagnosed me as manic depressive because I did not at any time show any of the symptoms of a bipolar disorder.

Yet a practicing psychologist - these are the guys with both a Ph.D. in psychiatry AND an MD - stuck me with that label. What was this based on? My crazy mother (and I mean that literally, my mother WAS emotionally disturbed due to a combination of never dealt with childhood abuse and undertreatment of her hypothyroidism) showed up at the hospital shortly after I was checked in for about five minutes (never showed her face there again) and told this psychologist "she has always been so ... DRIVEN".

This is the same woman who beat me over the head the whole time I was growing up for being an UNDERachiever, and always told me I didn't do ENOUGH. Sheesh!

Now I dont want you to think that this single comment ALONE made this guy slap the bi-polar label on me. Oh no no no no NOOOOOOoo. The OTHER thing that made him decide that I must be bi-polar was that I had reported that my memory lapses and confusion seemed to be worse right before my period. This, he said, was evidence that I was ... DAH DAH DAH!!!! CYCLICAL!

LOL! Every menstruating woman alive is cyclical! Any sort of ailment is always going to be worse at certain times of your menstrual cycle because your whole system is under stress! When this all first started I thought I might have PMS - the rest of this stuff came out of thin air!

This was totally typical of my dealings with the psychiatric profession for the nearly 2 years I was going through all this. They made a wild guess, a stab in the dark, and threw a pill at me. When the pill didn't work or gave me serious complications/reactions/side effects, they would make another totally unfounded guess and throw another pill at me.

At one point I had something like gray cat fur growing all over my tongue. It was one of the more outre side effects of the various meds I was on at one time or another. The technician who was testing my blood levels saw it, but I couldn't get in to see the doctor 'til the next week, had been told to stop the med, and of course the symptom was gone by the time I got in there. The doctor clearly didn't believe me that I had had this reaction, yet the technician's office was ONE FLOOR DOWN from his office and it would have taken him 30 seconds to look in my mouth and see the same thing the technician saw (it grossed her out and scared the pee out of me).

I had another psychiatrist sit there and tell me bald faced lies - about what he alleged my family doctor had said to him about me, about what he alleged my father had said to him about me, about what he alleged had gone on while I was in the hospital for a week after the Prozac incident. Like I didn't have a brain or didn't know what was going on around me. When I called him on every single one (basically when it was obvious I wasn't going to lie down whimpering and let him walk all over me) he said, "Well I obviously can't help you" and referred me elsewhere.

I had another doctor categorically refuse me further treatment when I categorically refused to be put on Prozac again. This was despite my family doctor's confirmation of what it had done to me.

Not one of these doctors - NOT ONE - wanted to actually know what was wrong with me. That would have taken time and thought. All they wanted was to throw a pill at me and collect their fee for seeing me a minute and a half once a month to renew my prescriptions. Every single one - including the neurologist - worked from the assumption that I was lying about my symptoms and making up non-existent drug reactions. Every weird reaction I had could have been confirmed if they would have let me come into the office and come out and looked at me for 30 seconds. Or even had their NURSES look at me.

At one point or another I suffered from each of the following, and more: I had petechiae. I had the gray cat fur on the tongue. I had dilated pupils, constricted pupils, was flushed, rapid heartbeat. At one point I was bleeding from the mouth (that particular drug was notorious for dissolving all your mucous tissues, so my tongue and part of my throat were raw and bleeding). I was zoned out. I was hyper. I was too hot (and for me that was REALLY something because I am notoriously cold-blooded). I had tremors, twitches, and stomach problems. My hair fell out. I grew hair where I didn't want it. My skin was tender, or roughened, tough, and dry. etc. etc. etc. ...

ALL of these guys were basically experimenting on me. The stress from the constant barrage of medications was FAR worse and more debilitating than merely forgetting a few minutes out of my life once in awhile. The difficulty I experienced in concentrating when "clean" was NOTHING compared to the zombie-like state most of these meds put me into.

At one point I told the doctor that the med he had me on was making me too much of a zombie, and I couldn't even drive (I could barely talk, my tongue felt like it was 6" thick). He told me I would just have to live with it. I looked at him incredulously and said, "I'm a single mother. I work to support my son. How am I supposed to hold down a job if I can't drive or stay awake?" He told me quality of life wasn't an issue he felt we needed to discuss, just take my pills.

Now I'm pretty intelligent. I'm pretty well informed, and if I don't know something - such as the ramifications of an illness or medical procedure - I go out and find out about it. I'm pretty much of a stand up kind of gal. There are certain circumstances under which I can be walked on - I'm human, I've got strings that can be pulled - but this sort of thing isn't one of them.

If *I* could be treated this way, if the doctors could get away with this sort of thing with someone who really, when all was said and done, *DIDN'T* have an emotional problem to deal with at all, what the hell do you think happens to the average woman who IS going through some sort of emotional trauma? Exactly what happened to the woman in Texas. That's what.

It is common practice to prescribe strong mood-altering drugs to people and tell the patient they must take this drug for "the rest of their life". Blood work is often skimped on, or skipped entirely. Often no baselines are taken, or only a single blood sample is used as a baseline. Doctors routinely drug their patients into compliancy and then ignore them, except to collect fees for return "checkups" wherein nothing is really checked (except to be sure the patient is still compliant). NO counseling is done, or it is done in a lackadaisical fashion for a very short term (but keep popping those pills, oh boy!)

This has happened to me; I have seen it happen to friends of mine.

So the upshot is, yes, I DO blame the drugs - and the pharmaceutical companies that push them, and the doctors that hand them out like candy. "She goes running for the shelter of her mother's little helper ..." It's frightening. We have doctors who self-prescribe Prozac, and then once they're on it start giving it out to every patient they've got (one of the side effects of Prozac is a tendency towards a sort of megalomania. Just what a medical doctor needs more of, right?).

Are you shy? Take Prozac. Feel a little disconnected from life and society? (What sane person wouldn't?) Take Prozac. Have vague feelings of dissatisfaction? Prozac. God forbid you should examine your life, your family situation, your behaviour, your goals ... Not when there's Prozac, the Wonder Drug. Prozac, the bimillenial equvalent of good old fashioned snake oil.

I strongly doubt there is ANYONE who thinks they have been "helped" by Prozac who couldn't be adequately - even better - treated by some other treatment regime, including counseling and possibly even some TEMPORARY medication. Mostly what's wrong with us is alienation caused by our screwed up society, and since nobody wants to fix that or face it, in order to maintain the status quo and make all the little worker bees keep toiling away, the medical profession has come to rely more and more and more on frighteningly powerful mind-altering drugs like Prozac.

Ritalin has been mentioned. Did you know the rate of Ritalin medication in many schools is 60% or higher? You really expect me to believe that 60% of our kids are hyperactive? I don't THINK so. Kids aren't dumb. We tell them "just say no to drugs" - and then they see Mommy on Prozac, and Daddy's taking Zoloft, and little brother Jimmy is on Ritalin, and so are half the kids in their class - "just say no to drugs - unless we're uncomfortable with your nonconforming behaviour and we give you this GOOD drug so WE can be more comfortable, the hell with what it does to you."

I have taught in elementary schools, and the number of kids who have actually told me they aren't responsible for their own behaviour because they forgot their medication that day is frightening. "I can't help banging my chair around, I didn't take my pill this morning." "I can't help yelling at the other kids, I didn't take my pill this morning." We've got a generation of kids who think they can't survive from one moment to the next without that little white pill.

I have good friends in their 70s whose teenage grandson lived with them for almost a year. He was taking Ritalin. They didn't feel it was good for him so they stopped it. He insisted he was jittery and unable to control his behaviour without it. They started giving him a placebo, I don't know where they got it. He immediately reported he now felt fine, thinking he was on the Ritalin again.

And we WONDER why kids turn to illicit drugs? Hell, our schools are the prime pushers!

Can you tell this is an issue I feel strongly about? Better get off my soapbox before somebody SHOOTS me off ... LOL!

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 24, 2001.


Rheba,

Did you ever look into the possibility that your problem may be linked to food or chemical allergies?

I had a panic attack while driving through a smelly, industrial area once. Was sure I couldn't drive anymore but on the Turnpike, you can't just stop and I knew I would not get better if I did. I turned on the airconditioner (in the middle of winter) and felt instantly better. On the way home, I could feel when I reached the same area and turned on the air before I could reach the panic point.

Most of the doctors I've seen didn't recognize my problems so I was put on drugs too. I finally got help from reading and found a doctor (chiropractor who does alturnative medicine) who did understand and was able to start getting better.

By the way, allergies are not all stuffy noses and sneezing. Dajavu, dizziness, panic attacks, depression, tiredness, poor memory. Yep, they can all be caused by allergies. Oh, I also believe that most kids that are on Ritilin have allergies. I know because they wanted to test my son for ADD and once he was taken off dairy, his whole personality changed.

Is This Your Child's World? by Dr Doris Rapp has all this information in. Good book.

-- Dee (gdgtur@goes.com), June 24, 2001.


Since I was the one who started this tread, I feel compelled to add to it.

What I was experiencing was probably more "burn-out" than depression. I had a really bad work experience with a perfectly vile person who thought he could force me to do whatever he wanted by throwing temper tantrums and making threats. He accused me of sleeping with a varity of people, so I should sleep with him as well. (I did none of these things.) When I quit the job, I was naturally "depressed". I had loved that job and was very good at it. The icing on the cake was when my board of directors gave the job to this horrible man. That really threw me for a loop. I thought these people were my friends! I went to counciling to try to "get over this" but that didn't seem to work for me. When I mentioned all this to my GP he prescribed Prozac. I took it for about six months and honestly couldn't tell if it was doing anything or not. Now, I've stopped taking it and feel about the same.

The end of the story is this: The jerk who started all this did my job for about a year and a half. After running the organization into the ground and leaving a deficiet of $54,000 (that local taxpayers now must re-pay) he's left town. People are still muttering about it, but probably can't get him to re-pay any of the money. Bottom line: he's gone and I'm still here. I may never feel good about the "friends" I still feel betrayed me by allowing this creep to take over, but maybe they got what they deserved as well.

Thanks for reading.

-- Dianne in Mass (dianne.bone@usa.net), June 25, 2001.



Read thru all your postings and if this could get to the general public one would hopefully see a tremendous drop in the drug industry. You have all found out what drug companies don't want out. In general the people in this country have gotten to a point where a pill is better than dealing with every day annoyances. We all get aches and pains and feel down. The truley depressed need the drugs. There is medication for thyroid problems, I take it. Everybody forget things once in a while. Ritalin is a narcotic. How many of the kids that take it are hyper active and how many just act up when they don't get whatever they want. And how many of these kids get ritalin as opposed to discipline? I could go on about this for days but best not. To you people, congratulate yourselves, you have figured out what the general public will never admit to.

-- Barb (bralsteen@ez-net.com), June 25, 2001.

Sojourner,

I'm sorry to hear that you had such a difficult experience with mental health care. I wouldn't blame you a bit for feeling somewhat bitter and cynical about the whole thing, but some of your comments were a bit harsh don't you think? C'mon! Calling other patients in the psych ward "sheeple" and playing little superiority games with them? Listen, I know I haven't been in this forum long or anything, and I tried really hard to ignore what you said because I don't want to offend anyone - but what you said really bothers me.

Please consider for a minute that there may be people reading this forum that have family or friends with real mental illness. I know that many of these people may look funny or seem stupid or dangerous to others who are not intimately familiar with them, but I can assure you that when they go home at night, they have the same problems you do. They still have emotions and dreams, a home to take care of, a bath to take, chores to complete, and people in their lives who love them. They can still want the same things out of life that anyone else does; somewhere to live, food to eat, sun on their faces and someone to love and respect them. They may be mentally ill but they can still be intelligent, independent thinkers, artists, scientists, farmers, business owners and garbage collectors.

In short, they are just as human and important as you are, the only difference being that they have to work much harder than you do to overcome the additional hurdles of chronic illness and public stigma.

-Lee

-- Lee (bantlette@yahoo.com), June 25, 2001.


Lee, I absolutely do not feel I have been even slightly harsh. The so-called "mental health care profession" is a snake pit. There are a few bright lights (and ALL of those that I have known or know of are in the business of talk therapy, not dispensing drugs) but by and large its very little better than voodoo.

Of course there are people who really do have mental and emotional problems. My whole point, which in your rush to stand on a soap-box of moral superiority you seem to have missed, is that those people are NOT in a position to stand up against the barrage of so-called "treatments" that are by and large aimed at making the patient compliant and quiet, and very little else.

These techniques include belittlement, artificially placing the doctors and other staff on a pedestal of assumed superiority, and the attempt to force the patient into a childlike state of behaviour. There are copious studies that have shown time and time again that the desired behaviour of "mental patients" does NOT mimic that of a stable adult, it mimics that of a chld, and a contrite, naughty, problem chld at that. And that is what I have observed in my own personal experience in the system (and keep in mind, I did NOT at any time have a mental or emotional problem, my problem is that I am hypothyroid) and the experiences of numerous people close to me.

The other folks who were playing that moronic game with me were not the sort of folks you are talking about, with severe, scary-looking psychoses or whatnot. These folks had a variety of mild depressive conditions stemming largely from their inability or unwillingness to evaluate and make changes in their lives so they can be happier. Or maybe they had just been conditioned to conform for so long that they didn't know they could or should.

Is that truly a "mental disturbance"? Well, in so far as these folks were upset, I guess so, but its not my idea of true mental illness. It's what I see as an entirely normal response to the alienation brought on by our modern, consumer-driven, corporate-owned society.

My whole point - and maybe you didn't so much miss this as I failed to make it sufficiently clear, probably really a little of both - is that the vast, vast majority of people seeking this sort of treatment ARE NOT CRAZY. They are unhappy. They are confused. They are depressed because its normal to be depressed when you feel you have so little control over your life. But they are NOT victims of some sort of physical disease that needs to be treated with high-powered psychoactive drugs for the REST OF THEIR LIVES.

The sole and ONLY thing that makes that sort of thing necessary is the insistence in our society that we do not in fact examine our lives and the very real problems individuals face in our society today, but rather that we treat the SYMPTOMS as if they were actually the disease. They are not. Our society and the way it attempts to regiment and compartmentalize individuals is the disease. Drugs won't change that.

As for my use of the term sheeple, well, I use it pretty much all the time because that is the behaviour that I see many many many people exhibiting. They conform, they go with the flow, they do what is expected and they do not think for themselves. They have been trained to this behaviour from the time they were very young and very few break out of it. Sometimes, when they do, it is with violent and catastrophic force. If some among these people are "sick", then its a disease they caught from our sick society.

Am I bitter? No. If you find my realistic and graphic description of the state of modern mental health care in this country to be disturbing, its not because I'm bitter. It's because it IS disturbing. Not being able to call a spade a spade is what CAUSES a lot of the anxiety, panic, and depressive behaviour a lot of people are feeling today. Its traumatic shock syndrome. People are being traumatized by our materialistic society.

At no time did I play "superiority" games with the other patients. I left that to the staff. I didn't WANT those folks following my lead. That's not healthy adult behaviour. I WANTED them to do for themselves. Does that make me "superior" to them? I don't think so. You're the one who characterizes it so.

I guarantee you, any truly "mentally ill" poet or artist or musician or what have you who was stuck in that place would have been every bit as pissed off by the little pop-bottle papier mache doll type of projects as I was. It was the HOSPITAL and its staff that was doing the condescending.



-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 25, 2001.


I went through anxiety attacks for 20 years - refused to see a doctor (hate 'em, can identify with Sojourner) - finally found the books "What your Doctor may NOT tell you about menopause" and "What your Doctor may NOT tell you about pre-menopause", by Dr. John Lee. Natural progesterone cream made a BIG (though gradual) change in my life. I mentioned this on another thread on this forum.

Doctors are very much needed for surgeries, accidents, bad cuts, broken bones, etc., but I've always been convinced that after living in this body for all these years I know it better than anyone else, and if I communicate with "myself", I will probably find out where the problem is, and what to do about it.

I've never seen this mentioned on CS postings, but I've seen hypnosis work WONDERS on people. I've seen a hypnotist help a person "view" their own body (inside), find the problem, and actually "fix" it from within. There are so many things to learn in this lifetime, this reality. I believe if we ask the Universe for help, help will come, in one form or another if we're open to it. (O.K., so I'm 'way out there, but it works for me!)

Blessings to you, Rheba, and peace.

-- Bonnie (chilton@stateline-isp.com), June 25, 2001.


Bonnie, I believe you when you tell me hypnosis seems to work for some people. Why? Because that's what I keep trying to tell people - an awful lot of what's wrong with us isn't physical in nature - its psychosomatic. Hypnosis is nothing but focused belief. If something in your life is working itself out as a physical ache/pain, depression, what have you, "believing" you've fixed something inside your body could very well solve your psychosomatic symptoms.

I gotta wonder, though, how many people who "fix" themselves this way STAY fixed. Its still treating the symptom and ignoring the root causes. I have known a few people who swore by hypnosis, and it seemed to me they were always going back for something else ...

Contrary Peasant

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 25, 2001.



Interesting comments, Bonnie. Both my mother-in-law and my best friend have mentioned menopause and peri-menopause. I will check into it. As for hypnosis, I certainly wouldn't scoff at it. When I was a teenager suffering from brutal migraine headaches, I could often "self-hypnotize" myself. I would just put my head on my pillow, and think of blocking out the pain. It would work for several pain-free minutes at a time, before I'd have to re-focus. For the times it wouldn't work, and after I found my body incompatible with the migraine medications of the day, I would resort to a teeny bit of Valium to sleep through the pain.

I know Sojourner is right, and my fix lies in re-arranging my life to minimize (or decimate) the anxiety. Now that I know my health is good, I have to work on getting away from my little ones more than once every three years. Sad to say, but that is my only true source of stress. I love my girls, but boy, I need a *weekly* break. Too bad we live no where near family..... In the six and a half years we've had children, I have never had anyone close by to help out with the kids. And a husband who's almost always had no choice but to work overtime. A true stress, but one that REALLY makes me feel guilty whining about. That, of course, adds to the stress. I'll stop now before I start another anxiety attack... : )

I must say, however, that I find this forum really helps me feel connected to people while family and friends are physically far away.

-- Rheba (rhebabeall@hotmail.com), June 25, 2001.


Rheba, you've got a tough row to hoe. This is another sign of how far we've wandered from the path, that you should be feeling so heavily the total burden for the raising of the children. While there were certainly some disadvantages to the old model of the extended farm family (in my case being forced to live with my mother past the age of 18 would undoubtedly have ended in mayhem), there were an AWFUL lot of advantages. It sure came in handy to have somebody right there you could trust to spell you for awhile.

Could you trade a day off with a neighbor? I hate the aura of "play dates" - you know, where the Yuppy mom makes a call to another Yuppy mom from her cell phone to make arrangements to drop little Yuppina off for some quality playtime with a suitably socially positioned same-age peer - but it would be one way to get some breathing space. One day one week your kids go there, the next week her kids come over to your place ... something like that?

And don't feel guilty. Needing a breather from your kids doesn't make you a bad mom, it makes you a human being. The ones who should feel guilty (and generally don't) are the ones who are away from their kids and family all day hauling in the big bucks and STILL whine about needing time off from their kids. What, 50 or 60 hours away from your kids isn't enough? Sheesh!

Hang in there.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 25, 2001.


Mail message Pardon me for jumping in (long time lurker, here) but this has been a powerful thread to follow. And, amazingly, I listened to an interview on the Coast to Coast night time radio show Sunday night on this very topic. It was so compelling that I stayed up for 4 hours to hear the whole interview..

Ann Blake Tracy, PHD, has devoted much of her life to studying and documenting the serious problems these drugs have created for many people. She also has many interesting explanations for what is really going on with them.. (Please, know that I do understand that not all people are affected negatively by these drugs.. but I know that many, many are..)

I went to the Art Bell website, to the archive pages and I ccp'd the comments about the interview with Ann BlakeTracy (host, Ian Punnett) and I wanted to share them with you. You can hear the 4 hour interview on real audio.. I think it starts in the second hour.. (I wish she could read this thread...) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ccp

6/24/01 - Sun/Mon Host: Ian Punnett Guest: Ann Blake Tracy

Ann Blake Tracy holds a Doctorate in Health Sciences with the emphasis on Psychology, is the director of the International Coalition for Drug Awareness, heads the only support group in the state of Utah for those who have suffered adverse reactions to serotonergic medications (such as prozac, zoloft, paxil, luvox, effexor, serzone, anafranil, fen-phen, and redux) and has testified before the FDA and congressional subcommittee members on Prozac. She has testified since 1992 as an expert witness in Prozac and other SSRI related court cases around the world. Her first book on the issue was published in 1991.

Book: Prozac: Panacea or Pandora? Website: www.drugawareness.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~end ccp

The Coast to Coast archive pages (and real audio link ) is: http://Artbell.com/topics.html (I'm sorry, I don't know how to make clickable urls) This woman told story after disturbing story...They came close to some of the stories you folks have related here. I may get her book.. (I guess you can only get it from her website..)

She said that she is now working on a book about women who do things like what happened in Houston... as a result of the negative effects of some of these drugs...

Bless you folks for sharing your stories.. Bet you are helping some others out there.

-- Suzanne L in western Washington (SuzanneL@webtv.net), June 26, 2001.


Rheba, I started having anxiety attacks with menopause. No one could have told me how many organ systems estrogen affects. Palpitations, anxiety attacks, asthma, high blood pressure. I was one of those people who only saw a doctor when needing stitches or a bone set. Since menopause and trying to balance the estrogen my body has felt like it's been on a roller coaster. I am VERY sensitive to chemicals and limit what I put in my system (a couple of ER trips for reactions to meds that my doc thought would work). Calcium and magnesium at night together (palpitations, anxiety, muscle aches). Vitamin C thru the day. Multivitamin. Kava Kava and Valerian are good calm down herbs. Check for allergies on the herbs (take a small dose and watch). Sunlight works wonders in the winter time.

I work in the mental health field and see it from both sides. Believe me, doctors do no know it all and only know which drug rep bought them the best tickets to the ball game and best restaurant meals. One drug rep just put on a luncheon for our entire site (over 100 people) with fancy catered food, gifts etc.. Just prescribe my drug was all he wanted. No wonder meds are so expensive!!

Trust your instincts and try to achieve health with food and herbs. Dr. James Duke has a huge on-line database of herbs/uses/reactions/etc... and also wrote a book on using herbs medicinally. I trust this guy because of his experience and education. He knows his stuff and will list ANY side effects and possible interactions. http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/ (My personal opinion here)

Good luck and remember to always double check what docs say and/or prescribe. They do not know it all. If you have questions about meds, call your pharmacist. They have to know. Good luck - Mary

-- Mary (sageladyone@yahoo.com), June 26, 2001.


Keep up the good work, Sojourner! There are thousands of stories out there like yours, and they all need to be told to help prevent further victims. The medical system pretty much all has a very bad stink, and you have done an excellent job of displaying why and how.

The only way I would differ with you at all (although I admire/relate to your spunk!), is that I personally would rather strike at the root of the problem, which is the medical establishment itself, rather than the individuals involved.

Medical schools TEACH future doctors arrogance; its part of their education. They also teach them to be insensitive, robotically disinclined to question the institutional belief system, and that to choose to be a country general practitioner is to be a fool (no money). If you care to learn a bit about one woman's experience in med school, try reading "Stop the Medicine" by Cynthia Foster, MD. you can buy it here. I believe it is very like boot camp, and decidedly a brainwashing paradigm.

I would assume that as far as staff collusion in this mess, that nurses, etc are brainwashed also, and come to BELIEVE that they are powerless to question the behaviour and decisions made by physicians, and so of course powerless is precisely what they become.

And the beat goes on.......

Sounds like you need to write a book too!

Blessed be,

-- Earthmama (
earthmama48@yahoo.com), June 26, 2001.


Hi Reba,

About 12 years ago I started having episodes like you described above, tho my heart rate would get up to about 170. This was before the advent of "panic attacks" and other so called mind related problems. I got lucky and got a Dr. who actually didn't subscribe to all the "its a mental problem" stuff. It was so simple what was causing my problem. Coffee. Yep, it can cause your heart to race uncontrollaby. I went off coffee and no more problems.

About 10 years ago I had CFS before it was a known problem. My Dr ran ALOT of tests and discovered a virus was causing it. He even joked that some Dr's would tell me it was all in my head, and he knew it wasn't. Tho coffee may or may not be causing the problem you are having I would suggest that you find a Dr that actually will find the physical cause of your problem.

I have now how 2 conditions which in todays current mindset of "its a mental problem" I have had cured, not under control but cured. If I had agreed these were mental problems I would still be sick. I am not, having gone from "panic attacks" to bedridden for 6 months with CFS to running a horse ranch. You can cure whatever is causing the problem, it just takes time and persistence and NOT agreeing with anyone that tells you that it cannot be done.

-- Stacia In OK (OneClassyCowgirl@aol.com), June 26, 2001.


But, Earthmama, what IS the "medical establishment" other than the sum total of the individuals that make it up?

You're right, the whole medical education system is set up to inculcate a particular belief system and maintain the status quo. It is no longer the "hipocratic oath" its the "hypocritic oath". All snake and no cadeucus. Medical school is set up with the intent of "weeding out" the candidates - only the "strong" will survive. I know, I worked for one for 5 years, and I saw so many promising healers wash out and lose their dreams of becoming doctors, and not because they weren't technically capable or intelligent or competent; but because they couldn't or wouldn't knuckle under and become good little drones. Some of the most awful people got their MDs while many of the most caring were worn out and dropped by the wayside, precisely because they DID care. Many others personalities changed drastically before they completed the course. Read "My Grandfather's Blessings" and "Kitchen Table Wisdom" for one view of how this is perpetrated on our students of healing by the medical education establishment.

This is why I say the whole system needs to be shook up - no more med school class size restrictions! No more making interns work double and triple shifts (OK they call them residents now, same thing). If there were enough doctors we could all afford to go to one. If there were enough doctors they wouldn't HAVE to work double and triple shifts, and where would the excuse be for running the students ragged THEN? (So many times I have heard the frenetic pace of med school justified by some a**hole saying, "well if they can't take the heat now what's to keep them from cracking on their third shift in the ER when they get out of here?")

There is no faceless entity called "the medical establishment". It is ALL individuals, WE are all individuals, and the way to change the "medical establishment" is to change individuals. This means individuals must be made accountable for their own contributions to the situation as a whole. That goes for our screwed up society as well - things couldn't be the way they are if people didn't LET them be the way they are.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 26, 2001.


Sojourner, I share your values on this issue, I just happen to think that people's hearts are changed more easily by honey than vinegar. No matter how justified our anger at the system, when we try to instigate change by attacking the individuals, we will most often find only defensiveness, and consequent stubbornly closed minds. I personally never utilize doctors, except for a rare occassional diagnosis or emergency situation, but I am aware that they are still human beings, and I have never walked in their own personal shoes, and do not feel qualified to judge them on moral grounds. I do, however, deal with people every day in my herbal work who have been abused in many ways by the medical establishment, and believe that making people aware of the alternatives is key.

I personally couldnt care less how many fancy cars my doctor drives (if I had a doctor, which I do not). My beef is with a system that is based ENTIRELY on the pharmaceutical companies' bottom line. And the tens of thousands of people who are killed every year by their stinking drugs.

And the government that supports them by disallowing any competition from inexpensive, natural, toxic-free remedies. And threatening citizens with JAILTIME if they choose to try non-conventional healing methods!

Those of us who see this as a critical issue must provide not only bitches and moans about the staus quo, but lead the way to help provide alternatives. I think you'll agree that most people could give a rip and will never do the homework necessary to make changes in their own lives, and consequently in the system, but hope springs eternal, and some of us will not be silenced.

Blessing,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), June 26, 2001.


I wanted to let you know of a product that I wish had been available while my mother suffered terribly from bipolar/manic depression. It is called EM Power and you can get more information at the www.truehope.com site. If you look at their site you will notice a couple of very reputable universities doing studies on this product, because of its success. Also, Canadian Living magazine did a short item on it in its Medical section this month. This product is not quackery and you can go on the site to find the exact supplements that are in the product and put it together yourself if you want. The product provides many of the minerals that our depleted soils and foods no longer do.

-- Cindy Clarke (rclarke@revelstoke.net), June 26, 2001.

I'm not sure how to put this, Earthmama. So I'll just ask a question and maybe that will clear some things up for me.

Who is going to jail for what "alternative" health practices? I've never heard of anyone going to jail for taking herbal medicine or going to an alternative therapist, but that SEEMS to be what you are saying. Could you explain a bit more?

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 26, 2001.


Right on, Sojourner & Earthmama!!!! I LOVE reading your posts! You are both so eloquent and straight-from-the-hip!

(Forgot to add in my earlier post that I, too, had to entirely quit coffee - but I figured it out on my own. Made a world of difference. I forgot who mentioned it above, but it is so true - some of us just can't tolerate coffee anymore, and I used to LOVE it. But it really helped cut down on the panicky feeling when I quit.)

-- Bonnie (chilton@stateline-isp.com), June 27, 2001.


Rheba, your are most likely in perimenopause, just like alot of us, including me! Natural progesterone creme is a "lifesaver", quite literally! Also, add more magnesium to your diet, supplements are recommended to get at least 800mg. a day.

You had a bad reaction to the SSRI drugs, side effects can be very serious; try herbal instead, like Kava Kava, one of the best anti- anxiety herbs out there, and very, very safe to use, and it does not mess with your serotonin in your brain at all! Really consider if you should give up caffeine entirely, many of us had to to remain sane at all!

If you would like more information on progesterone creme and it's use and effectiveness, give me a call e-mail, I have been using it for over two years and swear if saved my sanity, if not my life, by helping lower my BP and heart rate, which was over 110 BPM, even at rest, and letting me finally sleep at night again without waking every little bit.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), June 29, 2001.


Sorry Sojourner, its taken me so long to get back to you; just havent had the time.

Regarding your question about my reference to "inexpensive, natural, toxic-free remedies. And threatening citizens with JAILTIME if they choose to try non-conventional healing methods! "

And your response: "Who is going to jail for what "alternative" health practices? I've never heard of anyone going to jail for taking herbal medicine or going to an alternative therapist, but that SEEMS to be what you are saying. Could you explain a bit more? "

I'd be happy to!!

Do you know that scads of parents have been jailed over the years because they have chosen unconventional healing methods instead of 'what the doctor ordered' for their children with serious conditions? Do you know that many of these same children have also been taken away from their parents, who were deemed UNFIT because they refused to allow their sweet babies to be subjected to the often torturous path of modern medicine?

Did you know that the FDA is, even as we speak, on a vitrolic rampage against small herbal web businesses, busting them left and right for 'fraudulent' or 'unproven' claims? That they are set on convincing the public, en masse, that herbal remedies are generally 'unproven' and therefore probably not only ineffective, but harmful? (Did you ever notice when an herb begins to become widely used because people discover its effectiveness, that SUDDENLY a STUDY> comes out slamming said herb?

There is a woman in Minnesota, a naturopath named Helen Healy, who a few years ago was battered and badgered beyond belief by the medical establishment. They obviously were trying to make an example of her. She had become too successful in her work with natural healing, had too many adherents, and they found her a threat. Where was the long line of 'ex-patients' who were anxious to testify how they were harmed by her bizarre treatments? Garsh! They couldnt find any!

But no matter, she's dangerous cuz we say so. So they tried to ruin her. Really worked hard to remove her ability to legally treat people. Tried even harder to put her in prison!!! Spread lies, inuendo, 'generally accepted research' around; figured since she's a gentle sort of person, she'll cave eventually. We'll get her outa here.

Didnt work though. Minnesota has a history of radicalism. Her minions stood by her, made lotsa noise via the media, and long story made short, she's back in the saddle. I visit her on occassion myself. SHe doesnt charge enough.

I subscribe to lots of newsletters, etc, so I know this is only one case of someone I personally know among THOUSANDS across this country

I sell essiac tea. I sell it because I believe in it. I have no other reason to do it. I don't need the money, even if it were terribly profitable, which it aint. I have seen people healed by it. Or maybe more accurately, seen their bodies become whole enough to cure themselves of their myriad diseases, especially cancer. Don't believe in panaceas; I absolutely believe healing is an extremely complex issue and involves lotsa mental/emotional stuff too. But I still believe in the tea as an important adjunct for those who also feel the same way. Seeing is believing. And believing is essential to healing.

If I say one word about my product's possible ability to heal, cure, alleviate, help, or in any way mediate any possible medical condition, I can be arrested, thrown in jail,and have my assets stolen by the powers that be. It doesnt matter that EVERY SINGLE LEGAL PHARMACEUTICAL PRODUCT ON THE MARKET HAS HIDEOUS SIDE EFFECTS. Mine has none.

It doesnt matter that by various GOVERNMENT estimates, between 46,000 and 89,000 people in this country die every year from DIRECT reactions to prescription drugs, and thats just those taken as directed! Those are ok, cuz they're approved by the FDA.

I better shut up now; probably already said too much.........

Blessed be,



-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), June 29, 2001.


Earthmama, great posts! Do you know if that case re: the naturopath in Minnesota lead to the state legislature passing a bill which allows complementary practitioners the freedom to practice without harassment?

-- amy (acook@in4web.com), June 30, 2001.

Yes, Dr Healy's case was very significant in getting this law passed, although it took about 4 years. Some state legislators worked hard, as did the alternative community in general, but I think perhaps the most important factor was the citizen involvement. Politicians DO listen when we scream loud enough, and in great enough numbers. Jesse Ventura very willingly signed it into law in May of 2000.

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), June 30, 2001.

Earthmama, this probably isn't going to make me too popular with you, but I have seen some real quacks that NEEDED to be put out of business, preferably in jail. I don't begin to know where to draw the line. As a child we had a few kids in school whose parents refused to get them proper medical treatment for religious reasons and those kids suffered needlessly. Also, even though you may not be personally acquainted with them, there are people who prey on desperate parents of children with serious medical conditions, offering them snake oil, not healing.

I don't know what "essiac tea" is and my mouse is broken right now so I'm not real inclined to go look it up right now but I'll try to later. But I DO know that any herbal compound DOES have side effects - because herbs are drugs too, they just happen to be naturally occurring drugs. Some people can't drink regular old coffee or tea because they are sensitive to caffeine - a naturally occuring drug. Many people are addicted to cigarettes, or rather to nicotine, the powerful drug in tobacco. Cocaine is a naturally occurring drug; so is opium. Digitalis comes from fox glove, its a naturally occuring drug that most certainly DOES have the potential for serious negative effects. St. John's Wort, shown to be effective as an anti-depressant, can also have side effects, and should not be taken at higher than the recommended dosages (and it is one of the few herbal remedies I know of that there is a body of evidence showing both effectiveness and proper dosages).

The problem with many herbal "remedies" is that the dosage is unknown, and little or no research has been done to determine even what the effective substance is in what often turns out to be a "witches brew" of this 'n that. Much of the research that HAS been done has shown that herbal "remedies" are more often than not ineffective. My experience with "naturopaths" and herbalists is that they make guesses. Of course MDs often make guesses too, and with less excuse IMNSHO.

Should herbalists and naturopaths or whatever be allowed to "practice"? Well I'm pretty much of a libertarian or what have you, I think people ought to be responsible for themselves and their own choices, so yeah, they should. But there needs to be some method for sorting the sheep from the goats, and while I respect the choice of adults to do to themselves as they will, if a child with a serious, even LIFE THREATENING illness is involved there needs to be an MD involved.

If we're talking a kid being taken off of ritalin that's one thing. If we're talking a kid being taken off his INSULIN, that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.

I repeat - herbs are not "safe", e.g., they have side effects and can cause allergic reactions in people the same as any OTHER drug, because they ARE drugs. You can overdose on them the same way you can overdose on a conventional drug. And because you never know the concentration of an infusion or tea or whatever you are making from them, you can't always know what dose you are getting. Quality of over the counter herbal remedies is largely unregulated and so varies wildly. There's really no way to tell whether the stuff you buy isn't working because it really doesn't work for you or because you got ahold of some formulation that wasn't properly manufactured.

And finally, because many herbalists swear by "synergistic" effects, often herbal remedies are such a mixture of different herbs they may interact in unexpected ways, just as any medication can be affected by another that you are taking. It pays to pay attention, particularly to herbal remedies because so little objective research has been done with them.

ANY DRUG, including herbal drugs, can have a negative effect on the patient. The thing is to be aware of possible side effects, not to pretend they don't exist, whether its a conventional or herbal medication.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), July 01, 2001.


Well, Sojourner, unfortunately since you covered so many points, and I have only a few minutes right now rather than the hour I would need to properly respond, the only thing I will say is this:

I'm sure the AMA would be proud to quote your post, since they couldnt have said it any better. And to add that I disagree with almost everything you said 100%. More later......

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), July 01, 2001.


Sojourner, I sure hope you aren't relying on Varro Tyler or other reductionistic-minded, medically oriented writers to provide you with all this false information about herbs being dangerous and ineffective. We actually know a great deal about herbs--centuries of anecdotal evidence and traditional usage has taught us a lot about the benefits of herbs. While this may not be good enough for the factions (e.g., AMA) that require double blind studies and absolute proof (if there is such a thing as proof), it sure is good enough for me. What we don't know much about, and are learning gradually, is that herbs can interact with pharmaceutical drugs--that is one area I believe requires caution. Nobody would dispute that. Herbs are wonderful tools for healing....I'd never classify them as ineffective, or worse yet, as drugs.

-- amy (acoo@in4web.com), July 01, 2001.

Earthmama says: "I'm sure the AMA would be proud to quote your post, since they couldnt have said it any better"

LOL! Earthmama, I'm the one who's been pointing out that the AMA is not the patient's friend almost from the beginning of this thread! I don't think I'm on their hit parade. Their HIT LIST maybe.

As for the rest, all I said was we need some way to seperate the sheep from the goats (e.g., some way to minimize the risk of being rooked by a faker, that DOESN'T mean I think only MDs should be allowed to practice, I have repeatedly said we need to break their monopoly), and that herbal medicines are STILL drugs that need to be used with caution. They have side effects, can cause allergic reactions, and can have unexpected interactions with unforseen consequences when taken in combination with other herbal medicines. Just like any other medication. Taking herbal medicines per se is not "dangerous, but ignoring the possibility of adverse reactions due to an herbal medication most certainly is.

If you want to disagree with that, have at it.

I fixed my mouse, now to go find out what essiac tea is ...

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), July 01, 2001.


Amy, I have never heard of Varo Tyler, and I don't rely on any one source for any sort of knowledge. Nobody knows it all, and I think conventional medicine is wrong-headed on a whole lot of fronts.

As far as herbs not being drugs because they are "natural" and are therefore somehow perfectly safe you are very very wrong. There are plenty of RESPONSIBLE alternative medicine sources on the web (and in conventional published material) that acknowledge that overdoses and side effects and allergic reactions can occur with herbal medications and should be watched for and avoided.

Here's just one such source:

Precautions for Using Herbs

Its exactly this "Yore either with us or yore agin' us an effen yore agin' us we gonna hang yew" kind of attitude that really really makes it hard for me take alternative medicine and some of its proponents seriously. Of course I have the same problem with conventional medicine and some of ITS unthinking die-hard propoganda-blatting proponents, so at least I'm even handed. I don't need to turn the other cheek, there are plenty of vicious true-believers to keep me well slapped on both sides. LOL!

As far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on the effectiveness of most herbal medications. Some have proven to be effective, such as St. John's Wort. And some appear to be ineffective, but not harmful, such as essiac tea (which I have just been researching).

As long as an herbal medication is not actually harmful, I see no reason to do anything to try to stop people from using it. *I* may be unconvinced of its efficacy, but if you think it might work, and its not ACTUALLY dangerous, have at it. But do so with full disclosure of possible side effects or other negative reactions. AND THEY DO EXIST, no matter how much true-believers may trumpet the cry "THERE ARE NO SIDE EFFECTS! IT'S PERFECTLY SAFE!"

You know, I've heard the same nonsense from practicers of conventional medicine and I don't believe it anymore coming from practicers of alternative medicine.

Something I don't think I've seen addressed in the St. John's Wort thread, for one thing, is the fact that SJW is an monoamine-oxase inhibiter (MAO) and there are certain food items you should not take it with (red wine and certain aged cheeses among other things) and certain conventional (and possibly herbal) medications it can have a negative interaction with.

There's no doubt that SJW is effective for some people. Not all, but some. Most mood altering conventional medications can't claim any more, and some can't even claim as much. But just because its "natural" in origin doesn't mean its perfectly safe. Even strawberries can kill a person sensitive to them.

As for whether or not herbal medications are drugs, here's the definition of drug:


Main Entry: drug
Pronunciation: 'dr&g
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English drogge
Date: 14th century
1 a obsolete : a substance used in dyeing or chemical operations
  b : a substance used as a medication or in the preparation of medication
  c according to the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act
     (1) : a substance recognized in an official pharmacopoeia or formulary
     (2) : a substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease
     (3) : a substance other than food intended to affect the structure or function of the body
     (4) : a substance intended for use as a component of a medicine but not a device or a component, part, or accessory of a device

Now in what way do herbal medications NOT fit the above definition? Are they NOT used as medication? Are they NOT intended to affect the structure or function of the body? Are they NOT intended for use as a component of a medicine? Are they NOT intended to cure, mitigate, treat, or prevent disease?

Let's not have knee jerk reactions here. Any medication, whether herbal in nature or the product of the great medical behemoth complete with "Pfizer" stamped on the back, is a drug. Aspirin is a drug. Caffeine is a drug. Nicotine is a drug. All three of these also happen to be naturally occurring drugs. I could name you literally hundreds of others. They're still drugs. It's precisely BECAUSE I can name hundreds of naturally ocurring drugs that are known to be effective that I am willing to give herbal treatments the benefit of the doubt - EVEN IF I PERSONALLY DON'T HAVE MUCH FAITH IN MOST OF THEM - and not reject the whole thing out of hand.

As for hundreds of years of anecdotal evidence - you're not getting within 10 feet of me until you put those leeches down. LOL!


-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), July 01, 2001.


Hi Soujourner, I appreciate our interesting debate about herbs and drugs. Now, I did not say that "natural" means safe. Lots of things in the universe are "natural," such as lead and mercury..which are certainly unsafe. I think you are misreading my comments.

I generally don't consider herbs to be drugs--but if one is using them as a drug--well that's another story. If one expects an herb to work as a "magic bullet" / quick fix, then I suppose it's okay to consider them as drugs. That's not the way I use them.

RE: St. John's Wort, the MAO inhibitor theory has been long disregarded. In fact, it is still not clear what the mechanism of action is of St. John's Wort--if they don't understand the "active constituent" then they sure aren't going to be clear about contraindications. St. John's Wort has actually been used for centuries for "melancholy" as well as peripheral nerve injuries...seems tradition has known a bit about St. John's Wort long before they decided to "prove" its validity with double blind studies. They have also known for centuries that certain herbs are toxic--Water Hemlock, Deadly Nightshade, as examples... so I actually do seriously consider the benefits of anecdotal (aka hands-on experience) evidence (I'll pass on the leeches, thanks! :-))

I'm curious--you seem to be anti-modern medicine as well as anti herbal medicine. What do you use when you or your family gets ill?! I deplore pharm drugs and only use them when absolutely necessary. Without my herbs I'd surely feel lost.

-- amy (acook@in4web.com), July 04, 2001.


This thread is a prime expample of how all threads should be written! It has been well written by everyone and there has been no negativity. Congratulations to all as this has been such a great thread to follow! God bless!

-- Ardie from Wi (ardie54965@hotmail.com), July 04, 2001.

amy, I am beginning to understand a little about the leeches. The way I understand it, IRON of all things, is an oxidant, and too much of it can really undermine your health. There is anecdotal "proof" that sometimes, bloodletting actually can help a person heal, if their blood was too high in iron. Of course, it was applied far too often back in the days of hit and miss diagnosis. However, some doctors now recommend for all non-menstruating persons to give blood once a month, to lower the iron levels.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), July 04, 2001.

daffodylady, I think leeches actually do have a medical use--not sure of the species of leeches we are speaking of though, or for what conditions they are used for. I haven't heard of the iron theory.

In the "old days", back to the centuries where they used heroic medicine which involved blood letting and using toxic metals, people were pretty disillusioned with medicine. I read a book about Thomas Jefferson and his health habits. He was one such man that stayed away from doctors because he knew their "therapies" killed more people than they cured. It's pretty amazing to look back and see that medicine in those days involved seriously harming patients. In a way, things aren't much different nowadays, since pharm drugs and invasive medical procedures kill or harm way too many people every year. I wonder if the medical community will ever find a balance between their drugs and gentler healing methods.

-- amy (acook@in4web.com), July 05, 2001.


Amy, not as long as big money controls medicine.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), July 05, 2001.

Hi Sojourner,

I only have time to respond to a bit at a time (I thank you so much for keepin me on my toes!!), cuz I am crazy busy right now, so here goes:.........

"Earthmama, this probably isn't going to make me too popular with you, but I have seen some real quacks that NEEDED to be put out of business, preferably in jail. I don't begin to know where to draw the line. As a child we had a few kids in school whose parents refused to get them proper medical treatment for religious reasons and those kids suffered needlessly. Also, even though you may not be personally acquainted with them, there are people who prey on desperate parents of children with serious medical conditions, offering them snake oil, not healing."

Could you be so kind as to please elaborate on what conditions these kids were suffering from, and what alternatives their parents wanted to utilize?

I know I'm kinda screwey, but I cannot respond very well unless I have specifics.....

You see, when I see a statement like this:

"Also, even though you may not be personally acquainted with them, there are people who prey on desperate parents of children with serious medical conditions, offering them snake oil, not healing."

what immediately comes to my mind, cuz I talk to very very sick people , viturally every single day of my life, is that this describes PERFECTLY what many people's experience is with MD's.

And so it goes......

bestest blessings to you and yours, til next time........

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), July 06, 2001.


I also used anti's mine prescribed was Remeron. I gained over 30 lbs and could NOT feel. Emotionally, Nothing, zippo notta. I was on those for 4 weeks and detoxed myself. It was horrible. My friend was just prescribed Prozac, he has shaved his hair off, waters the lawn (even when it is raining) and last week I watched him walk in circles for a good steady 5 minutes. The dr's are telling people it is a 4ever thing. Forever. That is what I was told as well. I refuse to give into pharamacutical companies for their greedy gain. Sure, some people do need them. I asked if Blood work was done ie, how do they determine TRUE clinical depression? Answer: Yes bloodwork 'can' be done but, it is costly. so they GUESS for the most part. Blast me, but been there did that and happy I am no longer doing that. Good post Rheba.

-- that (been@there.did), July 06, 2001.

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