What's wrong with these forums?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Beyond the Sidewalks : One Thread

Well, I just looked in to catch up on the latest, and I am saddened. Can't imagine this forum being the same without Diane. I'm still concerned about Sharon's disappearance. What disturbs me most is the intrusion of negativity and cheap shots.

I also looked at the "TV ALERT TONIGHT" thread over on Countryside (also on this forum), which offers a classic example of where we don't want to go with BTS. I don't quite understand why the negativity carried over here. BTS is a sanctuary for a bunch of like-minded people. I'll respect the right of anyone to post here, but there is no point wasting energy arguing a point that won't ever be accepted or rising to bait put here to divide us. Let's all remember that silence is sometimes the best response, and civility is what makes this sanctuary a pleasant place to post.

Hope you all have a great day. I'll be putting my energy into the garden and harvest.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

Answers

David:

I posted the following to Joy on another thread but it deals with much of what you said so I'll repost it here:

Well heck, Joy. If us so-called leftist, touch-feely, enviro whacko watermelons can't talk about these issues on our own forum then I don't know where we'll talk about them. ;-D

The two threads where people got a little snippy recently here on BTS didn't devolve into extreme nastiness, IMO. I would have stepped in if the need had arose and reminded people to be civil, but I didn't think it was necessary because folks calmed down and - for the most part - apologized for their behavior. That was good because it shows that people *can* act like civilized adults when they care to.

I really don't want BTS to be a rival to Countryside (with us *only* talking about homesteading issues and nothing else). I really created this forum so that us "eccentrics/free thinkers" could talk about things that may not always have a direct bearing on homesteading (although homesteading issues/questions are fine here, too).

It was my hope that the Freedom forum would allow conservatively- leaning people the same opportunity to talk about their issues that were important to them, too. That way Countryside could move back to dealing with specific homesteading issues without devolving into warfare every couple of months. Am I naive(sp?) for thinking this?

What do the rest of you on this forum think about this? Am I wrong in my assumptions about this being a wide-ranging issues forum? Is BTS a homesteading-only forum or is it a place where we can talk about a myriad of things that interests us - even if we don't all agree on the particulars? I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts on this matter...



-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

I agree with you Jim. I enjoy talking about all sorts of subjects here and just getting silly sometimes. The CS forum is just so big, I don't feel like I know anyone over there. This forum feels more like family, or at least it did. I've seen a few names pop up on recent posts that I recognize from CS and I wonder why they're here and when the other shoe is going to drop. I also wonder how many lurkers we've picked up. I got an email this weekend from someone I've never heard of trying to sell me a book because of what I posted on the Dreams thread. To be perfectly honest, I wish that BTS was a private email list rather than a public forum. That way I could look at the members list and know who I'm talking to, and we would have a more effective way of keeping the troublemakers out. This is such a special place, I'm nervous about losing it. Discussions are cool, but arguements are a bummer.

BTW, I'm going up to Michigan next weekend to visit Diane. I'm going to show her how to make soap and she's going to teach me about goats. I'm so excited I can barely stand it! :-)

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001


Sherri:

You've raised something here that I think we should all talk about more. Namely, do you all like the direction the forum has been heading as of late with all the newcomers and should we discuss the possibility of changing BTS to a password-protected forum? We've grown tremedously over the last few months and I'm sure some of you don't like that we're not as small and intimate a group as we used to be.

Should we become more exclusionary or are you guys opposed to going that route? If we were to password-protect the forum, how would we decide who could join and who would not? Should we have gone this route in the very beginning and kept the forum deliberately small with only the 40-50 original invitees being the only people allowed to join? Or is all this much ado about nothing and you really like the fact that the forum has grown and we have so many newcomers?

As for me, I've really enjoyed this forum, too. But I'm leery of us becoming *really* popular like Countryside (bigger is NOT necessarily better, IMO). We've had over 4,800 posts since our inception on April 1st, 2001. I never would have imagined that the forum would have become as popular as it has.

So, if any of you have thoughts on the matter or have any ideas on how we could keep the forum more to it's original style (or not), please sound off here. I'd like to hear what you all have to say - pro and con.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001


I don't get it, what is so wrong, people get upset sometimes but it seems that they always work it out. As far as new people coming on, why hey , some of them are really nice and I see no need to exclude them. I found it really shocking when Warning came on to a thread that Dianne started, and that I responded to, but Jim took care of it. I really think that Di will be back she is just taking a break, feels like she has been putting her foot in her mouth, I miss her too. I love this forum and although I am no scholer, have no P.H.D.s, , I feel as if I have friends here who accept me the way I am. come on Dave , there is alot of possitive here. Don't you think! TRen

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001

I"m a new comer, If the policy of just a few were in affect, that would have close me out. No I don"t think there should be a pass word.country side has all the farm questions,so I think we could have a little diverseity here, I for one like the idea of someone alerting me to problems in the government or the media. After all it affects all of us homesteaders in one way or another. I would love to go out in the garden and let someone else deal with the world troubles, Just plant my seeds, But what happens when we have rolling black outs,because of Elect. shortages, and I can"t pump the water out of my well, for the garden. I would like to come here and talk about the problem. Of course the computor would be on the propane generator, bought for Y2K. I don"t get out of house much any more, and since I found these forums, they have given me something to look forward to each day, to see whats going on. With Love Irene

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001


I guess if folks want to get huffy... I just say oh, well... but it is sad when other folks get hurt...

I would like to see diversity... I would like to know if anyone does biodynamics gardening or farming... spirituality issues as well as earth change issues... health issues.... I know... this board was intented to talk homesteading... but health, earth changes and spirituality issues make up my household/homestead....

but I am only talking for myself here... no one else... and I'm grateful for this board... tho I don't always post... I do enjoy the reading...

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001


Diversity of opinion and ideas is what our country is all about, the right to voice these opinions has been fought long and hard for by many, for a long, long time. Debate over life's daily issues is what "civilized" folk do INSTEAD of coming to blows over differences of mere opinion and ideas. To be able to debate all sorts of issues without resorting to name calling and getting one's dander up is an art not everyone has, obviously!!!

Remember, a forum is exactly that, a number of people that sit and discuss whatever that happens to come up, in a civil manner, in civilized terms. Do not take these items of discussion personally!

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2001


Thank you all for the thoughtful responses. I think in addition to some of the factors mentioned, there is also a "honeymoon" effect when a new forum is started. There are few lurkers and the invitees are thrilled to have a new start. Yes, Tren, there is a lot of positive and I am still thrilled to be involved. My post was about the potential for negativity. I hope Diane posts again. It would be a tragedy to lose one of the most positive people due to negativity on another forum!

I don't like the idea of password protection, but I really like to know who's responding. I feel very much more comfortable with familiar names. One of the joys of this forum is that newcomers are encouraged to post an introduction. When somebody opens up to us all with a lengthy intro it is very much easier to embrace them. In contrast, when someone throws in a snide comment from a false addy, it's very easy to ignor!

On a tangent, Jim (we e-mailed about this a while back), maybe a category could be made for threads that are intended to time-out and not go into the archives. This may be appropriate for people who want to introduce themselves but don't want their personal details available on the internet indefinitely. It might also be appropriate for items of transient interest, etc.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001


I was thinking about this subject and how we are all sorta like old timers in a small town. David ,It makes me uncomfortable also when somebody pops in, from nowhere.There has been a few times that I have noticed that a new person will come on and not understanding where one of us is coming from, because they didn't take the time to get to know us, gets misunderstood, or misunderstands something , then after ruffling a few feathers ,they disapear.

They probably think that we are all really hard to get along with. But, hey they gotta understand that this is a small town, and we need to size people up before we accept them! Thats just the way small towns are! When someone just pop's up without introducing themselves, I fill like Whoa, who are they, where did they come from. Do I trust them? Are they up to something?

Maybe it should be a rule, that people have to introduce themselves? After all it's only the polite, small town kind of thing to do. Tren

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001


I think maybe Trendle has the right idea. Obviously, we can't FORCE anyone to introduce themselves, but if they don't do that, after we request that they do, perhaps we should just ignore that person.

I don't have a problem with "readers" -- those people who just read the forums, but don't have the time or inclination to post much or at all. Maybe I should call them "sideliners" (watching from the sidelines). Now, "lurkers" I would define as those who are just waiting for an opportunity to leap out of the shadows, slap someone, and disappear back into their cyber hidey-hole. I guess we just gotta expect that there are unknown folks out there reading, and we won't know their intentions until they post.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001



I know I'm going against the flow here(which is very unusual for a Pisces). But I would be perfectly OK with a closed membership. I visit another board where you must be approved to participate and the people talk to each other more like they would in person. It's very easy for a person to pop off and say inappropriate things when they can remain anonymous. On the board I spoke of the people reveal much more about themselves since they know only a closed group will be reading. I'm really not being critical of this board, I'm just relating my experience at another board and will hang out here whatever you decide! See, there's that Picses go with the flow thing!!

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

Yes, Denise I can see the benefits of that way too. I know that I don't reveal certain things knowing perhaps that ,who knows who, may read it. Tren

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

I'm sure that this will ruffle somebody's feathers, and I'll apologize in advance, but this should be said- I did not know that this forum existed until several of the BTS participants mentioned it in repeated posts over on the CS forum. There were several invitations extended to CS participants, which is what piqued my curiousity and got me to come over. I do not know the history of this forum, how and why it was started, or by whom, but it has become apparent from reading some of the posts here that you all do not seem to embrace new participants, so I am confused as to why the invitation was extended. If you older, original members don't want to welcome newcomers why don't you stop referring to this forum over at CS? And, why don't you use a password system? If all you want to do is chat amongst yourselves, have at it. Decide who you want to include and shut out the rest instead of opening the forum to the public and then complaining about the response that you get. Additionally, it seems to me that a lot of people here spend a lot of time and energy bad-mouthing CS, which is a very negative thing to do- if you don't like that forum why not stay over here? It seems as if a number of people just like to keep stirring up trouble. I like the CS forum and have been well treated over there, whereas I was subjected to a very viscious and uncalled for attack by one of the BTS members in an earlier thread, which I did not think was very nice at all. I like this forum and have learned a lot from many different people here, but I am confused as to what you all want the forum to be. I guess I probably missed what was happening when this forum was created, and I am sure that the same is true for others who responded to the invitation to come over from CS. Maybe you guys could provide some clarification so that those who are not wanted will know to bow out.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

After reading and then rereading the responses on this post, I thought that maybe I should add my measly 2 cts. worth!! I'm not much of a "talker" and don't post very often, but I have come to feel that people who are here (on BTS) are very much like neighbors (and good friends) and I trust their responses. I don't really think that the way to go is a "password only" group....seems kinda snobby to me! BUT...I do feel that anyone who is a "newbie" to this group understands the rules and totally respects them. If they don't like the rules then they're outa here! I also think that not only should we be able to discuss homesteading subjects here, but personal things, too. If anyone does not want to read it...then don't!! I know from experience that this is a very good forum to receive emotional support when it is needed. So, please don't change BTS. But anyone out there who tends to get a little "wound up", just do what Rick did and CHILL OUT!! If I offended anyone...I'm sorry.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001

ai caramba!

Elizabeth, I'm too tired to answer your questions tonight. I'll try to get to them tomorrow. :-/

G'night all...

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001



Trust seems to be the word doesn't it? I trust people on this forum and I don't on the others. Gee nobody's called me a communist, bleeding heart, or tree hugger in a long time! Ha! I just want to be myself and even if we have a little spat once in a while I trust this group can work it out. But people will come in just to jerk our chain! That said I think we should welcome all posters but demand they post a name and correct e-mail. Plus an introduction. If they can't behave then we should ask them to leave.

I had a personal e-mail a while back saying BTS was just a bunch of snobs and it reminded then of a high school clique. I'm sure we look that way at times but as I reminded this person you have to earn peoples trust. I said to keep posting and if your hearts in the right place then you become a part. YOU TOO CAN BECOME A SNOB!!

Anyway if we work to keep this place safe then we'll capture all the people of creativity. Homestead eccentrics, poets, Dreamers, plus a few rascals to keep it fun!.....Lov Ya'll....Kirk

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001


Oh gee, Kirk, I'll call you a bleeding heart, tree-hugging, ecko- whacko greenie if that will make you feel better? See, now you feel more at "home" right? The way sisters and brothers call each other names anyway, at least we notice enough to care about one another, and take the time to acknowledge each others foilbles and follies!!!

From one tree-hugging, touchy-feely greenie to another....

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2001


I'm not sure what the problem here is, but ... are you seriously going to try to FORCE people to "introduce" themselves?

I haven't, and I won't, post an "introduction" message, no matter how many times the thread may be reposted. I'm just not comfortable with it.

So, am I out? Are y'all kicking me and everybody else who isn't comfortable talking about ourselves like that off the list?

What the heck is going on here? What's the problem?

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001


Hey, where I sit, Treehugger is a COMPLIMENT! I even got a bumpersticker that says Treehugger and I'm putting it on my green car! I can't imagine why anyone thinks there is something WRONG with hugging a tree!

I'd go for using false email addy's in the post as long as Jim okays it. Some people have genuine privacy issues.

Elizabeth, I read every thread here, and I'm sorry, I don't remember any attack on you. I know that one of your posts made someone unhappy, but I don't think her posts were an attack on you, vicious or otherwise. The thread that drifted into a discussion of abortion, right?

I've been treated well on CS too. I've also been treated like a communicable, fatal disease of disgusting origin. Depends on who's posting. I'm fairly certain all of the "old-timers" here can say the same. I could be wrong, but I think you started on CS after a LOT of very bad postings and hard feelings occurred. Did you know that several folks suffered genuine cyber-attacks (not just a passed-along virus). A forum is only as nice as the people who post. In the "old days" (gee, about a year ago), Elizabeth, a post such as you made on the abortion issue would have gotten you a ton of serious flak on the forum, hate email, and possibly viruses and cyber-attacks.

The point of all this is to try to give you an idea of why so many of us are a bit skittish about lurkers and unknown newbies. Those known to dislike our attitudes generally just stay away from here, at least under the names by which we already "know" them. I know this makes things difficult for newcomers, since a lot of it is a "you had to be there to really understand" kind of a thing.

I think a lot of us were rather new to forums, and were so happy to have found a forum from Countryside Magazine, and then inevitably, people discovered a LOT of differences of opinion. And some people got quite nasty about the differences, no matter which "side" they were on. Most of us who came here didn't like all the nastiness, and please believe me, nothing you have seen here compares to some of the stuff that went on over there. Right now, it seems to be quiet again.

Sojourner, I don't know why you are so against an introduction, because I think you've already revealed quite a bit about yourself in your various posts. Certainly enough for us to know that you are a real participant here and not just some troll trying to start trouble. So far, you're playing by the rules -- being nice. We're discussing what we want, where we are going, etc. etc. It's WAY too soon to say people are out or whatever! Hopefully, it will never come to that, anyway. I hope all this helps you understand!

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001


...Ahhhhhhhh!!! Thank you Annie thats feels better!

So sorry if I upset you Sojourner. Just my opinion and just something that I would be more comfortable with thats all.....Kirk

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001


Wow now this is a perfect example what an introduction can do. Look at Irene's thread on the threat of the U.N. Look at the tone of the posts before and after she gave a little info on herself. Big difference......Kirk

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

I really think that an introduction is only natural. Do you ever meet a new group of people and just walk in spouting off without some kind of intro.? Why do you feel uncomfortable with that Sojourner? When you met Gene Lodgdon you introduced yourself and you were happy when he knew who you were. Isn't it the same here? tren

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

I haven't posted in the last couple days cuz I've had sort of a crisis going on here at home, but I've checked in a couple times a day to keep up.

I've always felt BTS was pretty close and personal, people who knew each other, and who were learning from each other to open up and talk about things we could not on CS, because we all here respect the fact that CS is a homesteading forum, and it is very large. And it is an offshoot of a REAL homesteading magazine, and the forum is a reflection of the magazine. Makes a big difference. It's about respect. And having this forum, with the ties of CS and homesteading, along with some excellent touchy-feely deep thinking, is the perfect solution. It's the best of both worlds.

Countryside, IMO, is a great forum too, I'm over there allot, and I will fight for the CS forum just as I would this one. I haven't seen any CS bashing here at BTS, don't know where that comes from Elizabeth. It was some of the POSTERS over there who were so ugly, not CS itself. The moderators of CS have been fair and square straight down the line.

The secret to the peace of the forums comes with "joining" the forum that most reflects your way of thinking. BTS and Freedom are really at opposite ends of the pole, totally different way of thinking, totally. BTS has had a few "Hit, Bash, and Runs", but we delt with it in a most mature way, because we here WANT to act mature above all else I do believe. We feel close enough to tease each other, and very much enjoy some good belly laughs. We aren't doom and gloom, that's depressing, and that's not us.

We here love and respect each other for our hearts, not our religion or beliefs. That's something not everyone can do. If a person can't, then they would not be comfortable here.

With the password question, I quess the only way we will know is to see if it works without one. But if people keep comming over trying to stir up strife and trouble, well, it might be necessary. The folks at this forum CAN deceide what's best for them.

About topics, I love it just the way it has been. Not just homesteading, we can get that at CS. We are free to get deeper here, funny here, be ourselves here, that's the joy of it. I am very attached to the hearts here, I laugh, I cry, I feel. With that said, I would also fight to keep BTS the way it is.

Love to you all, please send positive beams of light my way today, I need it.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001


Cindy in Ky. Well Cindy you sure sent out some powerfully powerful light waves yourself there and I'm sure that they are going to be bouncing right back to you!

Elizabeth talled about not knowing anything of the history of this forum, how and why it was started and by whom. Elizabeth you can read that if you click on the "about" at the top of each page. I know now that if I ever go looking at other forums to read their 'about". But I am not even going to peek at any as I spend too much time on the computer on this one already!

I sure don't like the thought that we might be making any newcomers ,or once in a while contributers ,that have good intentions, feel like they arn't wanted. I found it interesting Kirk, what you shared with us about someone calling us snobs. Polly a snob, Dianne ,Or JOy or any of you good people a snob! Wow. One of our big debates is not wanting to leave any kindred soul 'out there' in cyber space alone.

Maybe we should add more to the 'about', and for any one to join the conversation they should be lead to the 'about' first.

I must admit that I feel very thankful that I happened to post to the thread in Countryside that Jim M. sent his invitations to. I feel like I was in the right place at the right now , and where before ,I was flundering, I now rest at my cyber home.

It's tough what we are going through now. But there are souls here that I feel a real kinship with. Let's talk, we will figure things out. TRen

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001


re: "introductions"

Trendle, when I met Gene Logsdon, I did not walk up to him and start spouting off about myself, my life, my goals, and personal details. What details of my life might have come up came up in the course of normal conversation.

When you "introduce" oneself in person, little more is normally said other than "Hi i'm so and so" and you get that much in an e-mail "conversation" anyway. Also, you are not standing at the front of a room crowded with strangers reciting the details of your life to a huge mass of people, which is what formal announcements of introduction on a forum like this amount to. You normally deal with only one or two, or at most a bare handful of people at a time, on an individual basis.

As for WHY I feel uncomfortable with formal and detailed "introduction" letters, why should I, or anyone else, be required to justify that? In person, no one would grab me as I walked in the door and force me to stand in front of the room and shout out an introduction anymore than I would walk to the front of the room and start shouting out any other sort of a speech. Instead one would expect to circulate naturally, engage in conversation (or not) with individuals or small groups (like responding to a thread or starting one). Personal details (above and beyond name, rank and serial number) are revealed gradually, over time, through a great many conversations. Why should this be any different?

I'm not necessarily uncomfortable with people learning about who I am; as someone else pointed out, I've revealed a fair amount about myself already, and I will undoubtedly continue to do so over time (assuming I don't get kicked off for not posting an introduction, LOL!). What I'm NOT comfortable with is posting a detailed message full of personal information to the forum at large.

If you start REQUIRING an introduction, are you going to start grading them for content to? (I don't mean you personally, Trendle) So if someone posts as introduction "I'm so and so and I live such and so." Will that "pass"? If that's acceptable as an intro, why, when such info has already been revealed elsewhere, REQUIRE a formal, separate introduction? And if its NOT going to fulfill the requirements for an acceptable formal introduction, just how much IS going to be required?

I really think REQUIRING a formal introduction is a can of worms that doesn't need to be opened. Some folks are comfortable doing it; fine, let them respond when "newbie introductions" are requested. But some of us AREN'T. SO why not let us operate at the level of OUR comfort without having to justify ourselves?

I would never have gotten to meet you, Trendle, if a formal intro had been REQUIRED to participate in this forum. In fact, since you're the one who told us all about Gene Logsdon's appearance at your library, I would never have gotten to meet HIM either.

Is this really "broke"? It really doesn't appear so to me. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001


I think Sojourner has made some very good points. I hadn't thought of an intro as walking in front of a crowd and telling all about yourself. I guess if we are a group that wants to accept ALL people with respect and kindness then we need to respect their different levels of comfort as to when and how we'll get to know them.

Now as far as the hit and run trolls, I think the moderators can distinguish who is here to cause trouble and just delete them before they have the chance to cause a problem. Or maybe as a group we could decide not to respond to them even one iota before they get deleted. You know, don't even act like their post exists.

Even though I said I would be comfortable with a members only forum, I don't think it would be appropriate in this case as this forum wasn't started that way. Once again I say, just delete the trouble makers!

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001


I apologize for my first post on this subject sounding so hostile and unwelcoming towards newcomers. I've got some weird negative stuff going on at home right now that's got me all on edge and spooked, and I think that it's got me jumping at shadows and seeing threats where none really exist. Sorry.

I like it when people post intros because it's helpful to have the basic info in one place. We have such of wealth of info in the brains of the folks here that I have a hard time keeping straight who knows what, so I use the intros kind of like a card catalog in a library. I actually belong to one email list that not only requires new members to post an intro, but all members are required to post to the list at least once per month. Lurkers are given a one-month grace period and then they are unsubscribed. I certainly don't think that we need to be that extreme!

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001


Elizabeth:

I'm sure that this will ruffle somebody's feathers, and I'll apologize in advance, but this should be said- I did not know that this forum existed until several of the BTS participants mentioned it in repeated posts over on the CS forum. There were several invitations extended to CS participants, which is what piqued my curiosity and got me to come over. I do not know the history of this forum, how and why it was started, or by whom, but it has become apparent from reading some of the posts here that you all do not seem to embrace new participants, so I am confused as to why the invitation was extended. If you older, original members don't want to welcome newcomers why don't you stop referring to this forum over at CS?

Well, I'm the oldest original member here - seeing as I created the forum - and I've NEVER posted an invitation over at CS - I challenge you to find a post by me over at CS (or any other forum for that matter) advertising this forum. If you do find a post by me advertising this forum on other forums then I'll hang up my administrator cap and check myself into the old folks home because it will be apparent to me that Alzheimer's has hit me in full force. ;-)

And, why don't you use a password system? If all you want to do is chat amongst yourselves, have at it.

Um, Elizabeth, that's what I'm trying to determine by posting my thoughts on this thread. I want to know how the original members feel about the direction the forum is heading. I should have been more clear in stating that I wanted input from the original members. It was clear in my mind on what I wanted to know but I didn't do a good job in getting that across to everyone on BTS - my apologies to everyone for that.

Decide who you want to include and shut out the rest instead of opening the forum to the public and then complaining about the response that you get. Additionally, it seems to me that a lot of people here spend a lot of time and energy bad-mouthing CS, which is a very negative thing to do- if you don't like that forum why not stay over here? It seems as if a number of people just like to keep stirring up trouble.

Elizabeth, I don't think you have much justification in making those statements. Go over to the Freedom forum and see the posts that were bad-mouthing CS over the last few weeks. They have MUCH more of an axe to grind with CS than any of us here on BTS do.

I like the CS forum and have been well treated over there,

I'm glad you've had only good experiences over at CS but not all of the members on THIS forum have always had pleasant experiences over at CS.

whereas I was subjected to a very viscous and uncalled for attack by one of the BTS members in an earlier thread, which I did not think was very nice at all.

I'm really sorry if that happened to you. What thread were you attacked on? I'd like to know so I can draw and quarter the offending individual(s). ;-)

I like this forum and have learned a lot from many different people here, but I am confused as to what you all want the forum to be.

Well, that's what I'm trying to determine here. I want to know from the long-timers on the forum what their thoughts are on how the forum is doing and if they would like to see any changes. I guess I should have been more detailed in my first post on this thread on what I was looking for so there wouldn't have been so much confusion from the newbies here.

I guess I probably missed what was happening when this forum was created, and I am sure that the same is true for others who responded to the invitation to come over from CS. Maybe you guys could provide some clarification so that those who are not wanted will know to bow out.

Yes, I think it's safe to say that you HAVE missed what the circumstances were that caused this forum to come into existence and why some folks are nervous with all the new faces here as of late. :- )

I don't want any of the newcomers here to feel like they are being picked on or singled out. My main intention was to get feedback from the long-timers here on their thoughts as to how the forum was progressing and if we should make some changes. Here's an analogy that will hopefully help you understand what's going on: BTS is a country that started out small and everybody pretty much knew everyone in the country. Because BTS was small and everyone knew everyone else, things were pretty sedate and folks were polite with their neighbors for the most part. But BTS has seen quite a bit of "immigration" lately and long-time residents of BTS remember when another country named CS grew really big and ended up having some pretty awful "wars" because various factions within CS couldn't get along. So the "citizens" of BTS decided it was time to have a discussion on whether to curtail immigration or not. Having the discussion doesn't mean that the citizens of BTS *hate* immigrants, just that they want to try and determine if the continued growth of BTS is a good thing or if BTS should remain small and intimate.

We're just having a town hall meeting on how long-timers feel about the forum and whether there should be any changes to the forum. You newcomers are welcome to express your thoughts on the matter too - and we'll listen to what you have to say - but just keep in mind that because you're new, your opinions won't carry as much weight as the long-timers on the forum. That's not to be mean to you new folks, it's just that you don't have the same history as the long-timers, you haven't built up a level of trust with us yet.

Kirk:

I had a personal e-mail a while back saying BTS was just a bunch of snobs and it reminded then of a high school clique. I'm sure we look that way at times but as I reminded this person you have to earn peoples trust. I said to keep posting and if your hearts in the right place then you become a part. YOU TOO CAN BECOME A SNOB!!

It's interesting that you should mention that. I've had the *exact* same experiences in other forums, I've even used the term clique to describe them. I guess that feeling of exclusion is far more common than I ever thought. I had hoped that sort of thing wouldn't occur here but I guess maybe it's inevitable on any forum. :-(

Sojourner:

I'm not sure what the problem here is, but ... are you seriously going to try to FORCE people to "introduce" themselves?

No, I wouldn't try to force people to introduce themselves. I wouldn't even know HOW to force them seeing as this is a virtual environment. If people choose to introduce themselves it probably would go a long way in helping them integrate into this forum much quicker as the regulars around here probably wouldn't wonder over what the person's intentions were for being in our forum.

Is this really "broke"? It really doesn't appear so to me. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

We've had a couple regular posters stop posting for whatever reasons and I want to know if there are any potential problems that need fixing. Newcomers to the forum might not understand what all the fuss is about but I think the long-timers understand where I'm coming from in asking for their input.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001


Hi gang,

Interesting subject this.........I've been awful busy lately, and also was visited by an unfamiliar very nasty guest of a cold for a couple weeks (must be the stress of this move depleted my immune system, and I havent been treating my body very well lately)........so haven't posted in a long time, but methinks I also wasnt feeling as comfortable here lately either. Didnt really put two and two together until I read this thread.

Don't know what the answer is......wouldnt want it to be MY decision! Would hate to exclude future wonderful people from our lives, but at the same time, I don't feel lately as safe to be really personal. I think most of us here tend to be kinda shy in real life anywho, and when a bunch of unknowns come into the room, will back off for a spell until we get a bead on them.

Perhaps try to remember, to me this place is about SUPPORT and RESPECT, and if what you have to say doesnt fit those criteria, maybe a good idea to rethink your post.

Blessings,

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001


I;m sorry sojourner, I didn't mean that you were spouting off, sorry if it sounded that way. Tren

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

As diane’s virtual reality analysis committee chairman, it has fallen upon me to give her virtual friends a report on our findings. After several days of intense analysis, we thought she was making some serious progress. Yesterday she was able to carry on TWO adult, one on one conversations without mentioning a forum.

So, as an introduction to possible reassimalation into the cyber world, today we allowed her some “side-line observation” time. We regret to inform you that it was a total failure. Please keep in mind that diane failed at large group playtime throughout K through 12 and only with the help of drugs and alcohol was able to tolerate it in college and adult life.

For the first couple of minutes we thought that reintroduction might be possible rather soon. Then she tried to knock the timekeeper in the head because she got so excited to see a former playmate had returned. This perhaps would have been acceptable but then she went into a total funk when she realized previous apologies had not been accepted and that she had actually realized a lifetime longing and had belonged to a clique for the first time in her life and didn’t even know it. That information threw her into a depression that we deem unacceptable and will be limiting her sideline activities in the immediate future.

She would like to send hugs and love to all and to request that if anyone starts a small playgroup, please invite her.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001


Hey Diane...Please come on back!!!

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

When I first started being a regular internet user ( I think '94) I was really itimitated by usenet groups. I remember reading a bunch of stuff related to protocol...i.e.: observe the character of the group for a few weeks before jumping in to post anything, and understand that as a newcomer, you will be kind of on the outsides for a while, at least until you earn a position where people respect you. I stayed away from forums for probably 3 or 4 years before I warily even peaked into one! I thought it would be full of academic snobs! (tee hee! so true, eh?) Even then, I hardly ever posted anything and lurked for a long time...particularly at the old TB2000 board. I felt like I knew a lot of the participants, even though I didn't say much! But I hung out for a long time. I really felt like I didn't have enough experience to participate.

My first serious forays into online conversation came with chat rooms. I found out that one's foot can seriously go directly into one's mouth in true cyber speed. Yikes! I also type fast and got myself into a disproportionate amount of trouble by having the "loudest mouth." I quit chat rooms!

Next, I found the Countryside Forum, where I had a love affair with everyone who posted for gee-whiz, just the longest time! Folks that I would not agree with in real life suddenly became my pals. We got to share a lot of information. Then, who knows? The stresses of everyday life started impacting us over there; newbies showed up by the score. People started getting way too serious...Folks got aggressive, defensive, obnoxious, rude, etc. Mostly everyone stayed nice, but for a few folks, it was really depressing....so Jim invited us over here!

I guess my thoughts are to just kind of keep an eye on things here. If it becomes necessary to delete posts, well...we have all been forewarned. If it becomes necessary to password protect the forum, well, we have all been forewarned.

My advice to newbies it to observe the commentary for a while before jumping in. You might not know all the background, or whether or not someone is being sarcastic, for example! We have some silly behavior here that if taken seriously, would mislead someone to our intent.

That said, feel free to join in. I would suggest getting used to the water a bit before diving in right away. We are glad to share the pool with those who are glad to share it back with us! Just don't kick or splash too hard. Or for heaven's sake, don't pee in here....

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001


Trendle, don't apologize! I wasn't offended by anything you've said. I just really don't understand some of what's going on here right now. All I intended was to try to show people another side of the situation. Honestly, I didn't intend to accuse you of having accused me of anything. I apologize if it seemed that way to you.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

"because you're new, your opinions won't carry as much weight as the long-timers"

Just wondering, how long should I expect to be a second class citizen here? That's assuming the purebloods don't decide to deport us "immigrants" wholesale ...

OK, don't get yer knickers in a knot, that's half a joke. But only half.

FWIW, I've read a heck of a lot of the stuff in the archive, and I STILL don't quite see where a problem exists. It seems to me that ONE PERSON posted that she felt she had been over reacting of late and wanted to take a break. That's not quite the same thing as being driven from the forum. FWIW, I myself have a tendency to get too caught up in "arguments" and occasionally have to take a break to regain my equilibrium myself, so I know how it feels. But I take responsibility for my own reactions and I don't blame the "egger-on" for them. I don't post much on CS anymore because I had hardly begun posting (and I had lurked for quite some time) before I found myself getting embroiled in emotionally laden topics where nobody seemed to be maintaining any sort of objectivity. I just skim the first page of "new answers" over there now to help keep myself out of trouble. LOL!

I would hope this is a forum that will continue to be tolerant of difference; isn't that a large part of the reason the forum was started? Being told my opinions on this matter don't count as much because I'm a "newbie" doesn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy feeling about my future here. After all, a decision made by "the original members of this forum" is going to directly affect me. It's kind of like telling a slave he/she can't have an opinion on emancipation because he/she wasn't around when the laws allowing slavery were initiated ... LOL! (cut me some slack, allow me a LITTLE bit of levity here, ok?)

At this point I'm wondering if I should be waiting for the axe to drop ... Yes, I am somewhat concerned and no, I don't feel particularly welcome here anymore.

Sheepish, you in particular along with several other responders in general, give me hope. Frankly I've only seen maybe 2 or 3 postings in this whole thread that REALLY sound consistently possibly exclusionary (can I weasel anymore than that in my attempt not to throw stones? LOL!)

That said, I'm kind of wondering just who the "original members" are considered to be. I'll bet you a dollar to a donut there are people on this forum who consider themselves "original members" who aren't going to make the grade according to other "original members". OK, don't have to reveal names - how MANY "original members" ARE there, and how many of them have posted to this thread? How many newbie votes equals one "original member" vote (remember us newbies don't count as much as the OMs)? How many votes does it take to cast the rest of us out? What constitutes a quorum? Is this topic about done to death yet, and can we ALL (including us newbies) heave a sigh of relief and get back to something more fun and less fraught with exclusionary-inism? (IS that a word? Enquiring minds want to know ... LOL!)

Is it safe yet? >:D

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001


Sojourner, all your responses that I have seen have seen have been constructive and civil. That, in itself, makes you most welcome here. I understand your reluctance to give personal details. Even Kim and I disagree on this issue, and we never wrote a formal introduction. Still, I would guess that there must be few people posting here who couldn't piece together most of our life events and philosophies by now! An introduction is not a prerequisite to post here, nor should it be, but it may be a good way to get accepted faster if that is what somebody wants.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

I give up.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

"It is a good thing to be rich,

and it is a good thing to be powerful,

but it is far better to have good friends who love you."

Euripedes

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001


What the heck?!?!

Jim-Bob, we love you. Never give up, Bubba, we gotcher back!!

I know I said I was going to bed, but the withdrawal symptoms were killing me, so I had to stop and read.

No, I don't particularly want the forum to be password protected; folks like Bobco(just one example)wouldn't have been able to get on board. I don't recall Jim giving out invites on CS, but some of the rest of us; and some folks from over at FSR have mentioned this being a great place to play nice and be happy. And it is, and it's gonna be again. And if it gets really ugly - we can block the troublemakers or we can say "Oh well, we started this forum, we can go start another one."

Elizabeth, maybe you think it's dissing the CS forum to say I fled from there, or that I can't stand the strife over there? Or when I say that I'm so happy to have someplace to go and talk to people like me? I'm not throwing blame; those are "I" statements.

Holly, if we want to know more about you, we can just go to your web page. Nope, I don't expect you to tell me your life story when you meet me. However, if you want to be considered and included when things are discussed, it would help to know where you are coming from. I started the intro thread on this forum, but I've respected the fact that everyone doesn't feel as comfortable sharing things as I do. You and I come from different poles on a lot of things - for example, you made it pretty clear how you feel about people in my profession over on CS. Instead of getting pissy and turning my back and having nothing to do with you, I looked for common ground - which happens to be our enjoyment of Gene Logsdon books, and I've gone on from there.

I guess what I'm trying to say to the "newbies" is this: We focus on our common ground; and if we don't agree on something - we DON'T focus on it. One of my friends on here once referred to it as having country manners; and we mourned together that they seem to be a lost skill.

Yeah, just like any small town; we old-timers (and yes, I consider myself one of 'em) have our ways. If you moved to a new town, would you walk in the first day and plop down at the farmer's table at the coffee shop and offer your opinion on the President, the new preacher over to the Baptist church, whether the Cubs will blow it once again, the school mascot and why does the librarian let that scruffy boy sit in the library all day anyway?! If you did that in my home town..well they probably wouldn't warm up the tar and get out the feather ticks; but you would have just thrown a large rock in your path of being accepted and included. Same thing with folks who jump in a conversation here on the forum without being "known".

If I moved to a new town, I'd make darn sure to go to the local coffee house and introduce myself to the waitress - "Hi! My name is Polly, I just bought the Jones place outside of town here - thought I'd come in town and take a look around." Then the next day, I'd make sure I said "Good mornin'" when I came in the door, and as I passed each table. I'd ask the librarian if she knew where I could find some barn cat kittens - and then I'd make sure I took a picture of them happy and playing in their new home and gave it to the little girl who gave 'em to me. I'd ask the lady turning in books at the library if she enjoyed the book she'd just read and I'd read the local paper without a smirk on my face. I'd buy a chance on the quilt raffle and I'd go on the garden walk and buy my new perennials from the Garden Club sale, and I'd make darn sure I complimented the quilt and then got into a conversation with the person who sold me the quilt ticket about the trouble I'm having with the corners on my quilt... and I'd make sure I knew the names of the folks on the garden walk and when I said "You know, I've just never had a bit of luck growing hollyhocks." why, I betcha I'd not only learn all there is to know about how to grow hollyhocks in the area, but I'd also end up with local seed, and invited to join the Home Extension who always make pies for the 4-H fair where I meet the 4-H leader who has a couple of girls in the club who could use some help with their sewing project, who have older brothers who come to pick them up who just happen to play on the football team so of course I'm going to have to go get a purple and organge sweatshirt and go cheer on the Warthogs....

Do I make myself clear? If you want to be one of us and be accepted by us - then you need to accept us as we are first.

Good night all, I really am going to bed now!!

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001


Dear sheepish and polliwog,

we allowed diane some very brief side-line time today and you really made her day by putting into words in such a nice fashion what was on her heart. She thanks you and you give her hope that she can learn from you how to play in groups. Hugs and love.........

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001


Dear Ashley, I have been authorized by the forum to pay an on-site visit to diane and administer an intensive dose of play therapy. I will be bringing sunshine and lollypops and rainbows and smiles and hugs and giggles, please inform your client to be prepared! More info to follow by private email this evening. Sincerely, The Play Therapy Fairy

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001

Oh Polly, you are an angel..........

Your post has me literally in tears....I'm printing it out for my girls to read too, cuz we're gonna need such splendid advice in our new surroundings.

I'm gonna take a risk here, and get close and poisonal again, cuz these words moved me so.

You know I never did any of those things Polly gave as examples, and in retrospect not because I didnt want to, but because I usually naturally assume when I'm in a 'community' of straights I won't be accepted anyway, so why try. Sometimes it feels safer to just be quiet and don't garner attention, at least then one doesn't have to worry about some crazy person doing harm to one's family. And the fact that we were two women with two kids wasnt the only thing that made us odd around here: we homeschooled, and not for religious reasons, and we didnt attend any churches around here,(there's no Unitarian church close by, and thats the only one I would consider) and as you all know, these rural communities are centered on their schools and churches.

In the seven years we've been out here, we've never been invited to dinner, but then neither have we invited any locals here, save when we first moved my kids tried to get acquainted with a few but found they had nothing in common. (not as many people to choose from like there is in the city!). Guess being shy doesnt help, and I really figured they wouldnt be interested anyway, except maybe to check us out as a curiosity.

Bottom line is, on pondering this, I guess I didnt really give these people a chance. Guess maybe I just blew the whole country living thing. We just carried on our little organic business, homeschoolin, pagan thing, in our island of separateness, bringing in friends from outside the area when we felt like company, and probably looked to our neighbors like we though we were above it all.

Polly, when you mentioned finding common ground, and seemingly ignoring our differences, I think the first thing that defensively comes to mind is this (and please help me solve this dilemma, cuz I truly dont know how): I'm not good at casual, small-talk kinda conversation. I don't know why, I can just never think of anything to say. Its like talking to my mom, there's only so much one can say about the weather! Sometimes I make a list before I go there, of subjects to bring up that might last a precious more few minutes and won't cause any controversy! But my question is, doesnt finding common ground also mean avoiding most of the issues/interests that are dear to my heart, things that describe who I am? Doesnt this mean a lot of superficial relationships that have no depth? I dunno, guess I want too much of people.......

While I was writing this, my phone rang; it was obviouly divinely placed.....

On the other end was an old friend of mine.....the 81 yr old woman I bought my first Dexter from 11 years ago. Called to ask if I still had my bull (sold all my cows). I've been worried about having to make him into pepperoni or something cuz nobody wants a bull right now, even a beautiful one like my Stormy. Says she has a buyer for him! Also has a buyer for my stock trailer! And I never even talked to her about these things........she heard it thru the grapevine. She has a HUGE grapevine! Will talk your ear off.......knows EVERYONE......just love her. While she was yammerin away, I was immediately reminded of how we disagree on almost everything to do with animal husbandry, raising kids, etc. She's very into whatever the doctor or vet says (although she never has to pay, always barters for food!). Was goin on about her daughter-in-law is a lousy mother to her infant cuz she wasn't feedin him solid food at 4 months.....and I realize maybe I do kinda know what you're talking about Polly. SHe and I are miles apart in a hundred different ways, but I love her like crazy, she makes me laugh, has a memory bank of thousands of marvelous stories, and I can talk Dexters , or most any animals, with her for hours on end. And she'd be first in line to help anyone when they need it.

Thank you, dear Polly, for your wisdom.....guess I'm pretty weepy today..........think if I ever end up in the country again, I'll try to do things differently; and of course I can put it to use in town too.......I've learned a lot just this morning......

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001


Wonderful! In this discussion about what is wrong with this forum, what is right with this forum, happened again, one soul enriching and uplifting another. Alright! Tren

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001

Well, now I'm all in tears too! This is the most wonderful day. My crisis is over, a very happy ending. Reading all this has got me counting all my blessings too. Sharon is back making us giggle again, met Polly last night, way cool. Polly went to Sharon's (I wanted to go with her so bad but could not swing it) This is really getting to be family around here you guys. And Diane, thank you sweetie for all the uplifting you give me.

Emama, I liked what you wrote, I know the feeling when something just hits you, it's a very good feeling, this wisdom, isn't it! What you experienced this morning is what I call a "Spiritual Awakening" when it happens to me.

Friends. The best things in life aren't things.

There's also a Bible verse that says: "In order to have friends, you must first show yourself friendly." Really goes along with what Polly said. And by the way, Polly is one smart cookie! Thanks everyone for the beams of light as big as the crack of dawn!

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001


Wow! I sure do like the turn this thread took!!!!!

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001

I'm kind of disappointed that I read this thread. My opinion of who the BTS was has now changed. I thought originally, and I was one of the original invitees, that it was a bout accepting differences in people and seeking what we have in common instead of what we have different. Now, however, it appears that some people want a password and some want intros first, etc., etc. Why? So we can judge whether they are "acceptable" human beings so they can be on this list? So we can say, okay, I guess you are enough like me that I'll let your thread stand. I'm afraid this world is already made up too much of people that want to judge everyone first before they can accept them. I thought this was a forum that embraced acceptance rather than judgement. I understand what the person meant that said it sounded like a high school click because that exactly describes what it sounds like. If you drive the right car and wear the right clothes to school and you hang out with the cool kids then we'll let you in. And, we'll make fun of you if you don't because you're just not "cool" like those of us in the "in-crowd" are. I alway thought when I got out of high school that I would leave that attitude behind and we would all accept each other when we were adults, warts, differences and all. Sure hope this forum goes back to being what the original members saw, i.e. accepting our differences. If I don't like your opinion on a particular thread, I just skip it and move on. I don't try to psychoanalyze whether or not you should be a "member" of the forum or not. I don't want conformity. I want difference. That is how we all grow.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001

Colleen,

I don't understand your reaction. Can't we *discuss* the idea of limiting the growth of our forum? Is that such a bad thing?

Am I to assume from your post that you would be happy if BTS forum became another CS forum with 10 to 20 new threads started each and every day?

I need to go out and weed in my gardens for a while. I just don't understand the negative reactions to my query on this thread...

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001


I have been away for awhile, way too busy, I haven't had time to read all the threads I missed, but scanned a few and can't find whatever it was that brought all this on. BTS has been a breath of fresh air in that we could all be ourselves as long as we minded our manners and there ain't nothing wrong with that. So what's up with all this, anyone that has a problem go out the door and come back in with a different attitude and with the manners your mamma taught you.

Jim put a lot of time and effort into putting this forum together for us to have a place to come to and feel comfortable. I was a regular for a long time on another forum that just got too way out there for me, don't let that happen here. What ever you want to do Jim is okay with me, password, closed ranks, leave it open, delete the fools or whatever. There are alot of nice folks that have found their way here since you sent out the original invites and it would be a shame to have to eliminate new folks because of malcontents. Maybe let it ride as is for now. Maybe the folks that post regularly who will be away for awhile might post that they will be off the forum for a bit, that way others won't get worried about them. I don't get a chance to post often enough to get missed but others are around all the time and when they are not here it is noticed.

Hang in there Jim and don't give up, things have a way of working out.

Namaste,

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001


Hey Jim, hey Colleen, sit down under a shady tree and shell some peas for a while and have a wee cup of David's fine pea pod wine and reflect on the joy we have all shared here in our brief time together. It truly brings things into perspective...........even without the wee cup of wine.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001

diane,

I can only have a wee cup? I think I'd like a tanker truck load instead. At this point I feel like getting blasted so I don't think a wee cup is going to cover it. ;-)

Glad to see you're posting again.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001


Colleen, I believe when I find myself becoming defensive, I can always look a little deeper before I open my mouth and easily find there is some kinda fear goin on inside me. Perhaps you have found this too?

I kinda think you misunderstood the intention of introductions. The way I see it they have nothing to do with being "cool" enough or being in any 'in crowd' but simply about all of us being better able to understand enough about a person to determine where they're coming from when they express their thoughts. I think it helps prevent misunderstandings actually, but that's just my opinion.

Blessings,

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001


My understanding about some of the posts on this thread is that an emphasis was placed on courtesy, as well as kind of getting to know everyone and learning one's way around first before discussing big issues, maybe (if at all...so far we haven't chosen to, much.) Someone who posts under the handle "BushHater" or "Klintoon is a Scumbag !@^#&" is probably going to be met with some suspicion. But someone who posts under the name "Betty Crocker" might create a stir if the post is some inflammatory remark. I don't think the forum was set up to provide us with irritation, but rather with a way to communicate and share our opinions. I didn't get that it was to be a private club, or that we couldn't talk about stuff at all. I like Polly's analogy. Not that you can't become an important part of the community! Feel free to just read stuff. Okay by me. Or feel free to contribute. Okay by me, too. Just don't dis folks here. We try to be respectful.

Just a thought. I think it's hard to communicate in a print medium, even it's a cyber one, b/c you can't see the reaction on someone's face or hear an intonation in someone's voice. To facilitate *effective* communication, it's nice to have a protocol or two. In civilization, we have called something like this "manners." Yeah, sometimes they seem very contrived. However, we all understand the signals.

I didn't get that the forum was going to be an exclusive club and no newbies. Not at all! What I got was that whoever choses to participate here would benefit (as would we all) from being respectful and courteous. To some of us (I would guess most of us) that would mean not flaming, trolling, or calling folks names. On some forums, that's the mode o'day, however. Thus, maybe visitors from other forums come over here and participate in ways that they were used to elsewhere. I think we are just providing a little cultural clue or two so we can all get along better.

We have been labeled the "Touchy-Feely" group. Maybe that helps explain something (who knows what, however!)

Sheesh, from all the "welcoming" posts on this forum, you would not necessarily get the impression that we have been exclusive or gated.

Just my $.02.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001


Polly, I hate to say this, but I have no idea what your profession IS and therefore could not possibly have had anything to say about it pro or con. I know for a fact I have never posted ANYTHING that should have been construed as a wholesale slam against any particular profession. If you feel otherwise I sure would appreciate knowing just what I said to give you that impression.

"However, if you want to be considered and included when things are discussed, it would help to know where you are coming from."

I really don't understand this statement. I always take things (myself) at face value, because that is 100% how I operate - above board, without subterfuge, and painfully blunt. I know that's not how other people operate (which frequently gets me into trouble when others start reading things into what I'm saying because they ASSUME I MUST have some ulterior, hidden motivation), but it IS how I operate.

There is no "where I'm coming from". It's always right from the shoulder, straight on. There is nothing I could tell anyone in a formal introduction that could possibly show anyone any better than my own words, straight up, direct and on-subject, "where I'm coming from" on any particular issue. I couldn't BEGIN to post an "intro" long enough to cover all the bases! People are far more complex than could possibly be explained (to cover EVERY topic/subject) in a couple-three paragraphs of an "intro". Not trying to pick on you, I just don't see things this way myself, that's all.

And anyway, I've never felt NOT considered or included (except for parts of this thread), so it really seems kind of a moot point. I don't have the feeling that anybody I've ever had conversation with on this or the "other" board was not going to consider or include me until I posted an intro, by golly! LOL! Or that posting an intro would have cleared up ANY misunderstanding I've found myself embroiled in.

As for all the stuff about going to the coffee house and buying the raffle tickets, well, that's a personal difference involving level of comfort. I'm not comfortable putting myself front and center (may seem hard to believe but its really really true. Honest!). I would never and have never follow such a course of action. Pretty much goes hand in hand with the fact that I would not be comfortable posting a detailed public intro. I don't do such things in person; ergo its pretty easy to see I'm not likely to do such things virtually either. My preferred mode of operation is slow and easy, to gradually get to know people. And for them to gradually get to know me. If they can't be patient with that then chances are pretty durn good we wouldn't get along anyway, so I've lost nothing, and neither have they.

Hey, its great for people who are comfortable with it, don't get me wrong. Some folks would insist its not only the "right" way to be, it's the ONLY way to be. I'm not sure they're totally wrong - it WOULD be great if we were all open and friendly and self-confident and outgoing (and honest and nice and thrifty, brave and clean) enough to operate on that level. But I'm just not that outgoing. It's just not my cup of tea. Different strokes, an' all that. :D

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001


Holly, I am an RN on a psychiatric ward. It's in my introduction.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2001

Hi guys,

Well, just stopped by to check in. Things have been pretty crazy, but I really needed a "fix."

Jim, if you're taking a poll, and it seems you are, I'm pretty happy with the growth on the forum. Each new addition changes the dynamic a bit, but like putting more water into a puddle, then a pond, then a lake, the effect of the addition becomes relatively smaller and the new water blends more easily and comfortably with the old. Still, we do get the occasional bit of lye thrown in, but again, volume helps with the disruption and the lye either cools down or goes away, and calm and peace are restored.

We have had some new posters that I have come to value quite a bit. Sojourner, the forthright and thoughtful, springs to mind. Getting to know people gradually is, for me, alot like non-cyber life. Introductions are nice, but I forget most of the details quickly. It is the spirit of the subsequent posts that makes a lasting impression. The overwhelming majority of the time, I have found posters to this forum to be welcoming, supportive, and caring regardless of how long they've been posting - regardless of how familiar their names are.

So I guess my bottom line is . . . This forum is great just the way it is. I wouldn't change a thing. There's my response to the poll.

And my thanks to you, Jim, for putting this together!

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2001


Polly: Ah, I kind of see now. You're reacting to my very long posting(s) on the "other" board about my week on a psych ward due to a bad reaction to a medication I should never have been given to start with. As I recall (now) you made your own very long posting, to which I'm pretty sure I didn't react at all because even though I didn't totally agree with it, #1 I'd already stated my case, and #2 there was an awful lot of good advice in it (your posting). Why quibble over details?

As I recall I reported that there were a couple of psych nurses on that ward who were powermongers, who lied to me and attempted (in vain) to manipulate me. I ALSO noted "there were only a couple" - ergo the rest were ok. The fact is those couple made a lasting impression on me.

Every profession has its bad apples. People are, after all, only people. That doesn't translate to slamming the entire profession. The problems I reported (re the tendency to medicate rather than heal) are very real, unfortunately. Some of it is bias introduced in the medical education process. Some of it is encouraged by the drug salesman and all those free samples, pens, sticky pads, lunches, etc. etc. etc. A good deal of it reflects the attitude of our society (doctors are, after all, just another segment of society as a whole, as we are all) which is (ala the old comedy show Fridays): "Are you tired? Take a pill! Can't sleep? Take a pill! Feeling down? Take a pill! Too worked up? Take a pill! WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY MAKE THEM FOR!!!"

I recently admitted to an acquaintance that the reason for my long silence (I'd been almost totally out of circulation for about 8 months at the time) was due to me working through an extremely painful breakup. The first thing she asked me was "what are you taking?" Not if. Not "do you feel you need." Just the automatic assumption that any disappointment in life can be dealt with out of a bottle. Lord love her, I know her heart was in the right place, but this really illustrates what I mean by the above.

FWIW, my new job is medical transcriptionist at a mental health care facility in a hospital. And there's not a memo pad in the place that doesn't have a drug name and company logo emblazoned across it. Not too many pens either.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2001


Holly, if you are referring to the same thread I was, which was the SSRI thread; then you are mistaken about my posting to it. I didn't think that I posted, and I just went over and checked to make sure; and I did not post an answer. From where I stand, you did get pretty rough on the whole psych community. That is my perception, and I am certainly as entitled to it, as you are to yours. You seem to take pride in being blunt and straight from the shoulder - fine, that's your style. I don't sugar coat or prevaricate with my patients, but when I've got to tell them something that they don't want to hear, blunt (usually) doesn't work. It closes them down and they don't listen anymore. I don't do it with my friends either, because they are my friends, and they deserve to be treated gently and with respect. Further, you and I agree on the pill issue, I don't like 'em as a general panacea; but then again - I've also seen raving, foaming, totally out of their head people come in in 4 points to protect them because they are trying to slash themselves with a knife to get the beasts out; then seen those same people two days later, back on their meds and functioning. And I buy my own ink pens.

Mama, I'm not sure what to tell you about small talk. Pop says I was born talking and haven't shut up yet- I tell him it's genetic! I'm sure Sharon and Cindy will vouch for me that I never shut-up!! >^..^< I talk to people in grocery stores (Boy, that looks good - what time's supper?!), ball games (What's that guy throwing that flag in the air for? Whatta ya mean, a penalty!), shopping centers (You think this sweater goes with this skirt okay?), garden centers (What do you think of these yellow marigolds with this red salvia?)etc... It is probably harder to talk to family, about all I can suggest is to ask her about her childhood - "Mama, was Aunt Beulah older or younger than Cousin Maude", "Do you think (insert your daughters name here) favors your side of the family or Daddy's more?" or your childhood "Do you remeber my favorite color when I was a little girl?" "How old was I when I learned to ride a bicycle?"

Superficial relationships? Hmmm, I don't know. I've got some really good friends, a couple who have been around for a long time; and I've got some casual friends for different activities. I don't have to agree with buddy Jon about religion (nor alienate him either) in order to have a heck of a good time scrounging through the used book stores and military surplus shops with him. I don't have to tell my ex-husband what I think of his frequent girlfriend changes in order to tell him what a great Dad I think he is. I love swapping books and book stories with Barb at work, but I have no interest in sitting around drinking beer with her. When I go racing with Hubby, I read a book while he tunes up his motorcycle or talks incomprehensible motor stuff with the guys. I guess maybe I just have different friends for different activities, doesn't neccesarily mean the relationships are superficial.

I guess my best advice on the new town thing is to remember to smile. A lot. I grin at just about everyone who happens to look at me - most of 'em grin back. 'Course, I AM pretty funny looking....;o) Hugs to you, and good luck in your new home!

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2001


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