Okay, here's the dope on botulism and canning, as per my own secular bible, the Encyclopedia of Country LIving:

Botulism bacteriums, or bots, live in the soil all over. They don't do well in the refridgerator. When cooked,the bot bacteria die easily, but their spores are very resistant to high heat. High-acid will kill them (jams, jellies, so on), but low-acid may not. If the spores get a decent combination of insufficient heating, no air, and low sugar content, they go wild. Bot spores can RESIST A LOT OF BOILING! They are reliably killed by 204 degrees, achievable only under pressure.

Bot toxins, formed in the aforementioned no air, no sugar, undercooked jar of food, one of the deadliest toxins around. If you merely touch your finger to the toxin and then touch that finger to your lips, you could die. 16 oz of bot toxin would be enough to kill the entire world's population. It has no smell and no taste, and does not change the look of the food. However, BOILING FOOD 15 MIN DESTROYS BOT TOXIN. So boil all canned food when you open it. Prevention is the key here, folks.

Symptoms of bot poisoning usually appear within 18-36 hours, but may take up to 8 days. Nausea, vomiting, blurred vision, dry throat, difficulty swallowing. Progressive muscle weakness occurs, eventually striking the respiratory system.

Bot poisoning has occured with tomatoes, pickled beets, salsas, and other "no-can" type of foods. Bot bacteriums can survive in higher-acid foods than was originally suspected, which is why you are suppose to either pressure can them, or boost the acid in tomatoes if you're going to water bath them. Hot-packing, where-by you bring something to a boil, then lid them, and let them seal that way, can definately lead to bot poisoning, even in pickled foods. Pickled foods must be water bathed. Hope this helps clarify things. Some sentances in the above were taken directly out of the ECL for clarity, as per fair use, but most has been paraphrased in my own words.

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), July 09, 2001

Answers

Hi Soni:

Are you sure about those temps at which bot spores are destroyed? On the Fahrenheit scale, water boils at 180 degrees above the point of melting ice. At sea level, that temperature is 212 degrees. It's a little lower as you go to higher elevations, because the water is less dense and tolerates or retains less heat per a given volume.

What about that temperature of 204 degrees being attainable only under applied pressure?

-- Jim (catchthesun@yahoo.com), July 09, 2001.

Ok, I get it. I am supposed to pressure can all green beans in order to raise the temperature high enough to RELIABLY kill ALL botulism spores. and then, when I get that jar of canned green beans out, I am supposed to boil them AGAIN for 15 minutes, in order to kill... what? Those botulism spores were already reliably killed off when I pressure canned, they say.

See, folks? The big companies that pay for all these scientific studies and all this USDA information, are not in it to help YOU, but to help their own back pockets. FACE IT. The USDA doesnt do studies. BIG BUCK COMPANIES DO. Now, think with me for a minute. What drives big companies? Concern for the health of consumers who avoid their products? Or concern for their wallets? In their opinion, the best thing that can happen about home canning, in their opinion, is for it to become so convoluted and confusing and complicated, that most people just give it up.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), July 09, 2001.

I also did a little research of my own. Intellihealth, connected with Harvard Medical School, has this to say about botulism.

"...More than 2/3rds of botulism cases today occur in infants. In one out of five cases of botulism in infants, the infant has eaten raw honey. More rarely, botulism spores are found in corn syrup. Since the majority of cases of infant botulism cant be traced to a food source, experts suspect that babies are exposed simply by swollowing small amounts of dust or dirt."

Wow. So botulism from eating a carrot grown in your garden is a dire possibility? I mean, this is a very strong indication that all veggies should be "boiled for at least 15 minutes before tasting."

-and corn syrup? I suppose that had to be home-canned corn syrup.

Raw honey? Hmmm, if botulism is so bad in raw honey, why is it that we back-to-nature types arent falling over like flies?

However, needless to say, that small amount of dust or dirt getting in the mouth is the scariest yet. Wonder why the farmers of the 30's didnt fall over dead from those dust storms?

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), July 09, 2001.

I have the Encylopedia of Country Living as well. it was my strength to get through some rough times. I always referenced the book when I needed to know how to preserve or butcher, etc anything.

I really don't have time to read that section as per your paraphrase, however the information presents some interesting concerns about canning in general.

I just want to add that I have been canning food for a long time now and have not encountered any problems. If I were a "newbie" looking for help on canning this post would definately have sent me the other direction, to the nearest Save-A-Lot! Soooo.... guess its all in how you see the issue. Folks have been canning for hundreds of years, even before stoves were used. And..... I'll grant it there may have been a few instances with problems and death, but how the heck do you think food was preserved before the advancement of the "tin cans?" And.... eating food canned in tin cans is not healthy either, recently read that.

Not here to get into a big debate, just mentioning my 5 cents worth. Now i'll duck before i get flammed.

Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), July 09, 2001.

so now for the dumb question....:) How do I can green beans? The reason I ask is becaue I lost the weight to my canner-and of course (timing is everything isn't it?) the beans are going like sixty! We have ordered a new weight-but it will take four weeks. So I am considering freezing the beans. BUT the big thing about that is that every time I freeze beans-no one likes them they end up mushy and yucky. (we follow the generally accepted method-blanche cool and then freeze.) Why canned beans do not mush like the frozen ones, i have no clue.

So can you water bath beans? (we live in a Mennonite community and many of them do-they process for three hours! Pressure caning is so much faster!)

Sarah

-- Sarah (heartsongacres@juno.com), July 09, 2001.

Let's look at this logically. If boiling the product in a waterbath is only going to give you a 112 temperature at boiling, than why boil it for 3 hours? Boiling it for 3 days is still only going to heat it to 112 degrees! The only way to get higher than 112 is under pressure, period. I don't think green beans waterbath canned are going to kill anyone, but I also don't think if you do any kind of large amounts of canning, you should be waterbathing, unless it gets used up in a small amount of time. It is just so much easier to can, shorter periods of time, and insure a secure seal. I think most folks who water bath are simply afraid to can, thinking it is some sort of exploding kettle, when nothing is further than the truth. In many ways it is safer than waterbathing because you don't have access to the scalding water! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), July 09, 2001.

212, Vicki - 212 - not 112. Minor burt important. Sorry. And I just noticed burt - but I'll leave it - nobody is immune to mistakes.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), July 09, 2001.

Thanks!!! I have done that twice already!! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), July 09, 2001.

Sarah, I can and freeze green beans. I prefer the frozen ones, personally, but the cans are much easier when in a hurry at mealtime.

To prepare for freezing, tip and snap if you prefer, or leave whole, with only stem ends removed. Wash, and place into a large kettle of boiling water. Leave in there only till the beans turn a bright green. Do not overcook! It only takes a few minutes. Remove beans from boiling water and plunge into cold water. Allow to cool down completely. drain well on towel, bag up and freeze. I find it better to freeze in a single layer in the freezer and put into boxes next day.

To can waterbath. Ok, all you scaredycats skip this part... Prepare as for frozen, place into clean jars, fill with water to within 1 inch of headspace, salt and put the lids and rings on. Make sure that jar rim is absolutely squeeky clean! Place into waterbath exactly as you would do apples, except allow to boil for 3 hours. Remove from boiling water and place on towel to cool out of a draft.

Personally, I do use that "dangerous" pressure cooker (lol) , just because it only takes 20 minutes under pressure.

Of course, you have to be careful NEVER to place jars of anything into HOT water. Always remove over half the water after each batch, and replace with cold water. Also, allow that pressure canner's pressure to drop naturally, and dont take those jars out too fast. Too quick of a temp change can break jars.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), July 09, 2001.

Vicki, let's look at this logically from another angle. They recommend not tasting pressure canned greenbeans unless you first boil them for 15 minutes. WHY?

If waterbath canning allows spores to survive, why not just apply the faithful reliable good old USDA's own recommendation for pressure canned beans... boil those waterbathed beans for 15 minutes after opening, and it should take care of all the little boogers!

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), July 09, 2001.

Oh, GREAT! I ask what I did wrong with the canning a couple of days ago, and everybody is completely wonderful and emails me to say that I did it just fine,that's how it works and now I see this. Not only am I about to have a coronary, but I'm waiting for Rnady and the kids to go to sleep so I can toss all of the jars in the garbage. Outside. Up high. Where the birds and strays can't touch it. Maybe I'll wrap it all in freeze wrap first to protect the garbage men. Can I ask them to wear masks before they pick up my garbage?

Just kidding, all, but honestly. We have to take everything with a grain of salt. Everytime you go to the hospital for a routine procedure (like childbirth, say) they give you a form that tells you you could end up brain-damaged or dead. The truth is, you could. But the vast majority of people DON'T. Yes, we could all die from botulism. But probably not. Be smart, take precautions, and no matter what, DON'T PANIC- It's only homesteading- our ancestors did okay! : ) To anybody who is offended by the preceeding, I humbly apologize. I'm in a VERY weird mood.

-- Kristin, in La. (positivekharma@aol.com), July 09, 2001.

Lots of good information here but it's not all quite entirely correct.

They don't do well in the refridgerator. When cooked,the bot bacteria die easily, but their spores are very resistant to high heat. High-acid will kill them (jams, jellies, so on), but low-acid may not. If the spores get a decent combination of insufficient heating, no air, and low sugar content, they go wild. Bot spores can RESIST A LOT OF BOILING! They are reliably killed by 240 degrees, achievable only under pressure.

Refrigerator temperatures deter growth of Clostridium botulinum just like it deters growth of most other bacteria. Temperatures over 140 degrees Fahrenheit will kill the active (as in growing) bacteria but not the spores which are very heat resistant and require the use of a pressure canner to reach the appropriate temperature levels. Acid foods in the right pH range do not kill the botulinum spores they only provide an environment in which it won't grow thus the spores don't to break into growth. There have been cases of botulism poisoning in acid foods that were in the right pH range at the time of canning but either were improperly processed or had bad seals. Mold which fed in part on the acidity then began to grow in the contents raising the pH level into the range that C. botulinum needs to grow and it did. Ironically, the growing (and poison making) bacteria produces acidity of its own and can lower the pH back into the supposed "safe zone" but by then it's full of poison.

Even the most acidic tomatoes need to be properly and conscientiously processed no matter how simple the process seems.

Ok, I get it. I am supposed to pressure can all green beans in order to raise the temperature high enough to RELIABLY kill ALL botulism spores. and then, when I get that jar of canned green beans out, I am supposed to boil them AGAIN for 15 minutes, in order to kill... what? Those botulism spores were already reliably killed off when I pressure canned, they say.

No, you don't *have* to pressure can anything but I trust you'd be so kind as to warn any and all folks who might eat your non-pressure canned green beans of your processing methods. You don't *have* to boil your already canned beans either once you've opened the jar. Actually, if *I* canned those beans I don't but *I* know how I processed them. The reboiling is a belts and suspenders safety thing just in case you've made a mistake in your canning process and that jar of beans is not as safe as you think. In fact, home canned green beans are one of the leading producers of botulism poisoning from those cases that can be determined to have come from home canned foods. Fortunately, botulism poisoning in the U.S. is very rare, just over 100 cases per year from all causes. Of course, the consequences of being one of those cases are severe. Most victims don't die of botulism poisoning anymore, our medical technology is pretty good for that. What happens is that you run up hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical bills and you'll be months, maybe years, in physical therapy trying to regain what you once had - if you ever do. Might be kinder to have simply died of it.

All of this is, after all, entirely your choice. There's no *law* stating you *must* pressure can your green beans, it's just prudent to do so.

See, folks? The big companies that pay for all these scientific studies and all this USDA information, are not in it to help YOU, but to help their own back pockets. FACE IT. The USDA doesnt do studies. BIG BUCK COMPANIES DO. Now, think with me for a minute. What drives big companies? Concern for the health of consumers who avoid their products? Or concern for their wallets? In their opinion, the best thing that can happen about home canning, in their opinion, is for it to become so convoluted and confusing and complicated, that most people just give it up.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), July 09, 2001.

This is errant nonsense. Most of the *home* food canning research was done by the USDA and cooperating state cooperative extension services. The home food canning methods that we use are not very adaptable to industrial needs and their methods are much different. There are quite a few things that they can safely offer that would be difficult, in some cases impossible, for us to safely put by because we're using very different technology than what Del Monte, et al. are using.

The reason that home canning is slowly fading away is that most folks won't be bothered to take the time and the effort to learn how. It's not *convenient* to do so. Look at your local supermarket and the evolution it has surely undergone over the last twenty years. A hell of a lot more highly processed, ready to serve conenience foods aren't there? Not quite as much staples as there used to be. I don't think home canners amount to enough any more for the likes of Del Monte and Green Giant to even care.

I also did a little research of my own. Intellihealth, connected with Harvard Medical School, has this to say about botulism.

"...More than 2/3rds of botulism cases today occur in infants. In one out of five cases of botulism in infants, the infant has eaten raw honey. More rarely, botulism spores are found in corn syrup. Since the majority of cases of infant botulism cant be traced to a food source, experts suspect that babies are exposed simply by swollowing small amounts of dust or dirt."

Wow. So botulism from eating a carrot grown in your garden is a dire possibility? I mean, this is a very strong indication that all veggies should be "boiled for at least 15 minutes before tasting."

-and corn syrup? I suppose that had to be home-canned corn syrup.

Raw honey? Hmmm, if botulism is so bad in raw honey, why is it that we back-to-nature types arent falling over like flies?

However, needless to say, that small amount of dust or dirt getting in the mouth is the scariest yet. Wonder why the farmers of the 30's didnt fall over dead from those dust storms?

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), July 09, 2001.

You read just enough to be dangerous and not enough to understand what was said.

It's true that most cases of infant botulism could not determine an original source and it's also true that Clostridium botulinum spores are very common in the environment around us. Why are more people not coming down with botulism poisoning? Because just as any responsible source will tell you Clostridium botulinum is an anaerobic organism which means that it cannot survive outside of its spore form in an environment with more than just a very little free oxygen, the same oxygen that is necessary for virtually all aerobic organisms, such as humans, need to survive. Botulinum only becomes dangerous when it finds itself in an oxygen deprived environment such as a poorly processed but sealed can of wet pack food, foil wrapped baked potatoes stored too long at room temperature, improperly cured dried fish or pork, improperly processed fresh herbs in oil, and so on.

In the case of infants the last I read they're still not entirely certain as to the mechanism by which the poisonings occur. The theory is that for children under one year of age, mostly under six months of age, their intestines are sufficiently small enough that in certain rare instances the contents within can become anaerobic thus providing the necessary atmosphere for botulinum to break out of its spore form and begin to grow. There may be some slowed immune response thrown in there as well.

There have been some cases linked to raw honey and it's for this reason why it's not recommended to feed raw honey to children under one year of age. There have been botulinum *spores* found in corn syrup (been more surprising if they'd never been found at all) but I've yet to come across any documented evidence linking corn syrup to any case of botulism poisoning.

Folks have been canning for hundreds of years, even before stoves were used. And..... I'll grant it there may have been a few instances with problems and death, but how the heck do you think food was preserved before the advancement of the "tin cans?" And.... eating food canned in tin cans is not healthy either, recently read that.

Not here to get into a big debate, just mentioning my 5 cents worth. Now i'll duck before i get flammed.

Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), July 09, 2001.

Actually, both home canning in glass jars or tin cans and commercial canning in the same are fairly recent. It wasn't until the mid to late nineteenth century that it began to become widespread and there were deaths enough until we began to learn better. Fortunately for us, botulism poisoning is rare. Out of millions of people eating canned goods at its worst there were only from a few hundred to a very few thousand people becoming ill from botulism. Of course, in those early days you pretty well died of it too. It takes some advanced medical technology to bring you back from such an event.

so now for the dumb question....:) How do I can green beans? The reason I ask is becaue I lost the weight to my canner-and of course (timing is everything isn't it?) the beans are going like sixty! We have ordered a new weight-but it will take four weeks. So I am considering freezing the beans. BUT the big thing about that is that every time I freeze beans-no one likes them they end up mushy and yucky. (we follow the generally accepted method-blanche cool and then freeze.) Why canned beans do not mush like the frozen ones, i have no clue.

So can you water bath beans? (we live in a Mennonite community and many of them do-they process for three hours! Pressure caning is so much faster!)

Sarah

-- Sarah (heartsongacres@juno.com), July 09, 2001.

I don't have access to my regular bookmarks file just now but if you'll go to the Google search engine at http://www.google.com and do a search for Utah State University Cooperative Extension Service you'll find one of the best cooperative extension services in the country. On their site they have entire books on home canning and other forms of food preservation that you can download to your computer for free. They're well worth the effort.

Let's look at this logically. If boiling the product in a waterbath is only going to give you a 112 temperature at boiling, than why boil it for 3 hours? Boiling it for 3 days is still only going to heat it to 112 degrees! The only way to get higher than 112 is under pressure, period. I don't think green beans waterbath canned are going to kill anyone, but I also don't think if you do any kind of large amounts of canning, you should be waterbathing, unless it gets used up in a small amount of time. It is just so much easier to can, shorter periods of time, and insure a secure seal. I think most folks who water bath are simply afraid to can, thinking it is some sort of exploding kettle, when nothing is further than the truth. In many ways it is safer than waterbathing because you don't have access to the scalding water! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), July 09, 2001.

It's not necessary to waterbath any food that can safely be canned by that method for three hours. All you have to do is to boil it for the necessary amount of time for the entire contents of the jars all the way through to reach a uniform 212 degrees Fahrenheit. Precisely how long that is depends on the size of the jar and its particular contents. Any good canning manual will give you that information. Getting that uniformity of temperature all the way through the contents of all the jars is why steam canning is not recommended. It can be done but it's very tricky to do and is very prone to cool spots which can leave viable spoilage organisms in the sealed jars to spoil the food once the jars cool.

Now as for the green beans specifically. As I said above, there's now law or regulating dictating you *must* pressure can your green beans or any other low-acid, low-sugar food. You can boiling water bath anythng you please. It's my understanding that many nations other than the U.S. do just this.

You do need to realize though that you're taking a greater risk of encountering catastrophe if you do. The USDA and the Cooperative Extension services of most of our United States have spent a great deal of time and effort to find ways to allow people like you and me to put our foods by while at the same time lowering our risks the safest practical amount.

I don't fully agree with all of their guidelines (canned fluid milk being one but NOT cheese) but when I disagree and go against their guidelines I damn well try to make sure I truly understand the whys and wherefores of what I'm doing because I don't like taking chances with the lives and health of the folks who'll be eating that food, namely my family and friends.

A Ball Blue Book, or a copy of Putting Food By or Rodale Press's Stocking Up is a cheap investment for something that requires as much time and effort as home food preservation.

={(Oak)-

-- Live Oak (oneliveoak@yahoo.com), July 09, 2001.

Well, didn't properly close my anchor statement. Hopefully this took care of it.

Would it be too much to ask to have edit functions?

={(Oak)-

-- Live Oak (oneliveoak@yahoo.com), July 09, 2001.

We will not demise on earthly premise. I push it to the length, of groceries, unrefrigerated for more than two hours. My family is not dead yet. You should try it. Homestead is genorous, for those who hear. Mind expanding. You will exist, once you get over their Bullshit. My Story, and I am sticking.

-- Imagine (someonewhosold@bullshit.com), July 09, 2001.

Now I do have access to my bookmarks file so I'll pass on a couple of URLs that anyone who wants to learn a little responsible home food preservation can us.

Utah State University Cooperative Extension Service

http://extension .usu.edu/coop/food/foodpub.htm

Publications at this site of particular interest are:

USDA Home Canning Guides Preface - Acknowledgments, Preface, Table of Contents Guide 1 - Principles of Home Canning (5.6MB - graphics) Guide 1 - Principles of Home Canning (w/o graphics) Guide 2 - Canning Fruit and Fruit Products Guide 3 - Canning Tomatoes and Tomato Products Guide 4 - Canning Vegetables and Vegetable Products Guide 5 - Canning Poultry, Red Meats, and Seafood Guide 6 - Canning Fermented Foods and Pickled Vegetables Guide 7 - Canning Jams and Jellies

Canning Fact Sheets FN/Canning/01 - Using Pressure Canners (1998 - Kathleen Riggs) FN/Canning/01 - Using Pressure Canners (html) FN/Canning/02 - Using Boiling Water-bath Canners (1998 - Kathleen Riggs) FN/Canning/02 - Using Boiling Water-bath Canners (html)

Virginia Cooperative Extension - Can It Safely A good brief overview of the entire process that can be read online without having to download. http://ww w.ext.vt.edu/pubs/foods/348-078/348-078.html

Additionally you can get printed pulications of much of this stuff for little or nothing from your local cooperative extension service which you shoudl be able to locate with a little fingerwalking in the phone book.

={(Oak)-

-- Live Oak (oneliveoak@yahoo.com), July 10, 2001.

Hopefully this has stopped the runaway underlining!

={(Oak)-

-- Live Oak (oneliveoak@yahoo.com), July 11, 2001.

LiveOak, of course, the USDA has always been involved with pathological research studies. However, the FDA has had to rely more and more on private studies as federal dollars allocated to research have to stretch further. For instance, when the FDA evaluates the safety of new drugs introduced to the public, it relies on private research. The pharmaceutical companies are required to come up with the proof that their new drugs are ok. If you trust that, I guess it's your choice. I dont, personally. Too many studies have been tinkered with to create fad medicines.

LiveOak, if both suspenders and belts work to hold pants up, why should the government get involved in recommending using BOTH? Of course, if leather producers were used in providing research showing the danger of relying on only one method, I would suggest there is a strong conflict of interest.

Hmm, let's keep apples with apples here. We're talking about home food preservation research, the USDA and state cooperative extension agencies and not FDA drug research. Two very different things. Most of the true home food preservation research was done years ago though there is always a small amoung ongoing as our perception of acceptable risk changes.

If pressure canning of green beans isnt reliable enough to avoid the 15 minutes of boiling after opening, then why in the world is the government telling us that we must pressure can them? If those 15 minutes of boiling after opening is the really only reliable thing to do to be sure those botulism bacteria are GONE, before you eat them, then why arent they just telling us to go ahead and waterbath everything, but then boil every jar of home-canned goods for 15 minutes after opening?

You see, it just doesnt add up! This goes far beyond the belt and suspenders analogy. Its more like recommending 18th century female dress, complete with parasols and gloves, PLUS sunscreen, just to make sure.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), July 10, 2001.

Because people make mistakes - plain and simple. IF you've have correctly followed proper procedure and no mistakes have been made then it's not really necessary to do that post-opening boil. Like I said above if *I* canned those beans I don't, but I'm very careful about my food preservation if there's a large potential for it to bite me in the butt, or worse still one of my family.

As another poster already said, the post-opening boil is to break down any potential toxin that might have formed. Any live Clostridium botulinum bacteria that might have been in the jar will soon die as soon as our atmospheric oxygen sears its tissues but the poison they may have made before then won't care. Only heat will remove that danger.

Of course, some food spoilage organisms toxins are not much affected by heat, such as fungal mycotoxins but hopefully you'd notice if the beans were moldy when you opened the jar.

I have been following Jackie Clay's instructions and I can almost hear her saying "wipe the rim of the jar with a clean cloth and then run your finger around the jar to check for nicks"...and other advise she gives repeatedly.

I've found that if I follow a reputable guide (like Jackie in BACKWOODS HOME MAGAZINE) I do fine.

I also have the "new" good preservation book from the home extension service but also have my mother's OLD book from about 25 years ago. The old book talks about canning yellow crooked neck squash while the new book doesn't. I've canned the squash for three years using the recipe in the old book and haven't had any problem.

I pressure can everything except jams and jellies.

-- Suzy in Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), July 10, 2001.

I like Jackie Clay, she's very knowledgeable and writes well but some of the advice she gives goes against current USDA and cooperative extension recommendations and she does not mention this when she says it. I'm no slave to the USDA either, I have no problem with canning fluid milk (pressure canned) nor of canning butter (not pressure canned but with a near zero water content) but I very much try to understand the process I'm using, why it works, what it cannot be used to do, and when you can sometimes safely make exceptions. If I give these instructions to someone else I make it clear that they're not USDA approved so that there won't be any recriminations later if they screw it up and try to blame me!

For the life of me I cannot understand what the problem with canning *fluid* milk is other than it's going to change color, texture and taste but you won't find any approved instructions for doing so and I've got food processing books over forty years old. The same with properly processed canned butter (essentially the same as ghee). It's essentially 100% pure butterfat with no water content and thus won't support bacterial growth (needs approximately 20% moisture content or better). It might possibly could support fungal growth, fungi can be damned hardy, but if you do it right the butter temperature at the time you seal the jar is a good 250 degrees Fahrenheit and couldn't possibly have any live fungal spores in it. Nevertheless, you won't find any approved USDA instructions for canning it either. Both of the above could be because the general American public wouldn't find either product very desirable to have but then again it may be for other reasons. Fluid milk should be no more dangerous to home pressure-can than, say, beef and barley soup.

The thing with the yellow squash *may* be for the same reason as why they don't recommend home canning pumpkin (puree anyways) anymore. It's tricky to get a *uniform* and adequate temperature level completely throughout the contents of the jar. Heat moves by convection currents inside of a full canning jar inside of a canner and thick materials like pumpkin puree, cooked down squash, really thick stew, and so on have very slow convection currents which translates to taking a long time to get everything adequately up to heat for the requisite period of time.

Just as your older books show you they used to give such recommendations but as the decades go by our national consciousness of what is acceptable risk evolves and we are becoming more and more risk adverse. The situation is just as bad (worse actually) for home meat preservation. What was once considered to be acceptable risk is no longer viewed that way so what was formerly given the official seal of approval (USDA recommendations) no longer is and we're told not to do that anymore.

For myself, I'll make up my own mind. I don't have a particular problem with nitrates/nitrites in my properly dry cured meats, nor with pressure canning yellow squash. I'll draw my personal lines at boiling water bath processing green beans though. It's very little more trouble to pressure can something as it is to boiling water bath process and my comfort level with with safety of my finished product goes way up. Daffodyllady draws her line somewhat differently and I have no particular problem with that, only with not making it clear what the risk factors are. Everyone should have the opportunity to make up their own minds ONCE THEY HAVE ALL THE FACTS.

Soni, so if a person processes peaches (for instance) in a water bath, it has a possibility of having botulism toxin present upon being opened? Why then does not the USDA recommend boiling home-canned peaches before tasting? Why do they recommend boiling only low-acid foods after opening? Home canners can make mistakes with water-bath canning just as easily as with pressure canning, it seems to me! In fact, it seems it could be easier with the lower temp processing, because you have no pressure gauge to read. For instance, my mom processes foods with the boiling water only up to the shoulder of the jar, not covering the top as she should. Yet NONE of us 9 kids ever got botulism. She even does most of her high-acid foods with the hot-pack method, not boiling the jars at all! We were a healthy pack of kids. In fact, I dont think any of us ever were hospitalised for a thing. Exactly what are the odds anyhow, of getting botulism poisoning from home-canned goods?

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), July 11, 2001.

Peaches, like most fruit, are considered high-acid foods and many are processed with high sugar contents as well. Because of this they don't present an environment that the botulinum bacterium can grow in even if there isn't any oxygen unless something changes the nature of the environment such as mold eating the acidity. Usually if you get that kind of spoilage it's very noticeable even before you open the jar though from what I've read there may have been some very, very rare cases where it wasn't noticed and the food was consumed anyway leading to a poisoning.

Like I've said before, botulism poisoning is RARE and becoming even more rare. Even before pressure canning became widespread it was still relatively rare, though nearly always fatal then. Plenty of folks could go their whole lives eating low-acid boiling water bath home canned foods and never encounter the first botulinum poisoned jar. It's rather like playing the lottery that way, only instead of getting the bucks you get a funeral if you happen to be the one in a million unlucky person to get the booby prize. If you *want* process your foods that way then go right ahead, there's no law stating you *must* can your low-acid foods in a pressure canner but I think most folks here would agree that you have a responsibility to let anyone else who might eat that food know how it was processed so they too can make their own informed decisions.

Before I close this out, I want to tell a little story. My family comes from Southern Georgia and it goes way back just like a lot of the other families in the area. A near neighbor of my grandmother killed her entire flock of Rhode Island Red laying hens one day when she threw out a quart jar of succotash (mixed kernel corn and butterbeans) because it "didn't smell right." I vaguely recall it got a pig as well. The had the county ag agent out over this and he sent off samples of the birds to the state university to have them tested and the results came back as botulism poisoning. This caused the agent to ask them to let him inspect everything shed fed the birds for several days prior to their dying. She mentioned only in passing that she'd thrown that jar of succotash out and he asked to see the jar but she'd already washed it. He asked to inspect the other jars and one of the others proved to be poisoned as well but none of the rest. She'd always boiling water bathed everything before so she got a crash course in modern home canning then and her husband bought her a new pressure canner that week. I have no idea how many jars of canned goods he buried that week but I think he buried quite a few. Myself and plenty of my family had eaten many a meal at her table, she was a damn fine cook but it gave us all the cold sweats when we heard about it. What if she'd had a cold that day and couldn't notice the "off" odor? My own grandmother set her pressure canner quite visibly out on the counter in the kitchen so that everyone could see it so that no one would question *her* food.

Botulism is rare, thank God, but when it happens it's a life shattering event for anyone unlucky enough to have eaten the spoiled food.

={(Oak)-

-- Live Oak (oneliveoak@yahoo.com), July 11, 2001.

My husband and I were discussing botulism just last night. He left out the spaghetti sauce (Ragu) with the lid on. He told me to go ahead and use it as the house was cool etc.. That makes me very nervous,he thought that since I would have used it in the oven, cooking for an hour at 375, it would be ok..

-- Cindy in Ok (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), July 15, 2001.