If you're a woman, this has happened to you: you're in a crowded place, and suddenly there's a hand on your ass, up your skirt, on your breast. Despite my mild reaction the other night, I fully believe that men who cop feels in public ought to be slugged; I just wasn't in the frame of mind to do it.

How often has this happened to you? Did it terrify you? Gross you out? Annoy the fuck out of you? Has your reaction to these occurances changed over the years? Have you gotten angrier, or less so?

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

Answers

I had my ass grabbed at the Reverend show on Monday as well, and I don't think it was Mike. I wasn't as pissed as I was at last nights show, some little boy was trying to get up front to get onstage and ended up grabbing my tits. I turned around and told him if he didn't get his hands off me he'd be a dead man.

Man Beth, if you thought the shoving and pushing was bad at Harlows... it had NOTHING on the Brickworks last night. (Thank God there was a rail to lean on.) But the show was way better too, even if he didn't do Bad Reputation this time and someone threw ice at the Rev (fuckers).

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

Oh, at clubs, all the time. I went to a Chicks on Speed show awhile ago, packed front-to-back, and had hands on my waist and my ass and an elbow to the ribs usually meant that that person was replaced by a new person with stronger/more roam-y hands. I've been tempted, when I was still smoking, to just put my cigarettes out on their arms.

The worst was on the PATH train last year. Packed door-to-door during rush hour. I was hanging onto the pole in the center of the car, and reading, and people were pushed up against each other on all sides. I wasn't paying much attention, but the feeling of something bumping against my ass, something slightly too warm, started to creep in on me.

I finally turned around, looked down, and saw that the guy directly behind me had his dick out of his pants, his fist locked around it. I could only assume that he was rubbing it up against me. I screamed. And I said "You fucking asshole!" and he stuffed his dick away and pushed his way back to the other side of the train, and there was nothing I could do to catch him or report him. No one I was standing near had noticed a damn thing.

When the train pulled into the final station, I couldn't find him, and I was furious, but suddenly, out of nowhere, I just broke down and felt disgusting and horrified and started crying. I felt pretty lousy and angry and gross for the rest of the day.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

I have this girlfriend who has this happen to her a lot - she is very pretty, and there is this subset of men who seem to think they have the right to touch her. She was sick of it, really, really sick of it, and now, whenever it happens, she turns around, really fast, and tosses her drink on the crotch of their pants, so that they have to walk around looking like they pissed their pants for the next few hours. Funny in nightclubs, funnier at cocktail parties, the racetrack, and any event that is held in broad daylight.

You would think it would start adding up, money wise, for all that wasted alcohol, but often when people see her do it they buy her a drink after, so everyone wins.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

The last time I went barhopping, a coworker and I were playing pool with this old guy (probably around 80), and I was sitting up against the back wall while the old guy was shooting. He accidentally hits me on the hip while aiming. His apology? "Oh, let me rub it for you and make it all better." Said that repeatedly. I ran away. EW!!!!!!!!!

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

Not in a long time (*one* advantage of getting old), but there's one guy in Florida with a chipped tooth after getting an instinctive elbow to the face, and when I was waitressing I learned the art of finessing a reaction - that is, instead of visibly getting mad, 'accidentally' dropping whatever I was carrying all over the offender and then apologizing loudly enough for those around to hear "I'm sorry, you startled me when you grabbed my ass like that!"

You really can't be too blatent in a room full of drunk Texans, but a lapful of salsa or a tray full of beers over the head comes close.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

Never. Sometimes I think I live in a different universe from everyone else.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

I remember a really tall creepy old man causing quite a ruckus in church one year. As the women entered the church, he'd try and hug each one of them. Hugging was an ok thing for the type of church it was but, this guy had things other than warm greetings for fellow worshippers on his mind.

He was skinny and must've been around six foot eight with a wingspan to match. He'd approach a woman in the foyer, bend his wrinkled leathery pin head down, and with a too serious look on his face and a perverted look in his yellowed eyes, spread wide his serpentine limbs, wrap them all the way around the woman's back and inch the tips of his tar stained fingers forward just enough to brush the outside edges of her breasts. I used to think of it as the "reverse boobie tickle". Wasn't long before a couple of chruch elders had a talk with the dear brother to remind him that boobie tickling was unacceptable in the house of God. After the talk, I never saw him again.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

'Zat when you became a Calvinist, rudie?

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

Screw De Becker making people paranoid... this site is starting to make me twitch! Between this thread and the one about all the women reader's interactions with Mr. Stranger (or whatever)... I'm tempted to make my wife carry around my large can of bear mace that I take hiking. I fucking -hate- men!

(me, rudeboy, and Dave being the rare exceptions, of course)

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

Got some possession issues there, Morph?

~

I too, can claim victim status. Old (like 75+) man on the Metro. I was somewhat shocked, to say the least. After I clued in, I got pretty loud. That's about all I could do- can't very well go around tossing old men half your size away from you. People still looked at me very oddly, clutching their purses close to them. Unfortunately, that wasn't the only thing that got clutched that day.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

If I recall correctly, that was the last time you rode Metro wearing the heels and makeup, wasn't it Curtis? :)

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

I've been guilty of the kind of behavior described here, but I was 16 at the time. Now I only grab body parts when I know it's welcomed by the grabbee ... I really don't understand the appeal of doing it uninvited, unless it's just some kind of thrill of getting away with something, or maybe a low-self-confidence sense of it being that or nothing. Surely no grown man is going to think it's an effective way to win some woman's affection.



-- Anonymous, July 11, 2001

I dunno, maybe its because I grew up with three sisters or maybe its because I'm usually too shy to talk to girls or something, but I always wonder what guys are *thinking* when they do this sort of thing, or yell "show me your tits" out a car window or anything like that.

I mean, as Michael said, do guys really think that is a way to win a woman over? Does the sight of an attractive woman cause them to lose the ability to think? Are they more likely to do it alone or with their friends? It completely boggles me.

Sadly, I didn't believe stuff like that REALLY happened for a long time because it's so not a part of my world.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001

You're just bitter because I wouldn't let you give me a ride home, Michael.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001

I'm guilty of yelling "Show me your tits!". And it was in a group. And I was much younger. I wouldn't yell it out anymore although I do think it quite often.

There's a certain place where yelling things like that is appropriate. I'm not sure how gals handle it, but if I'm running or walking down the road and I hear a high pitched "Wooo hooo!" I'm on cloud nine for the rest of the day. I suspect a woman jogging along the street would react the same way when she hears a whistle or a "Wooo hooo!" whiz by. That's probaably where the similarities end though. If the same "woohoo" -ing car stops and the gals offer a ride or want to talk I'm so there. In the same situation, most women have the mace out and are dialing 911 on the cell phone by then.

(So, now, if ever I meet any of you gals in real life and my eyes glaze over momentarily and there's a short pause in our conversation, you're gonna think that I am menatally yelling for you to "Show me your tits!" Please don't assume that. Give me a little respect and the benefit of the doubt. Afterall, there are so many other body parts I may be mentally yelling to see.)

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001

At the last wedding dance I went to, the best man grabbed my ass and said I looked hot in the dress I was wearing. In front of his wife. Creepy guy or just drunk? I may never know.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001

I suspect a woman jogging along the street would react the same way when she hears a whistle or a "Wooo hooo!" whiz by.

That all depends on how many times that "Wooo hooo!" has turned into insults or threats when you wouldn't get into the car. Seriously.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001

What you said about the whoo-hoo business, Beth. Those whoo-hoos can feel more like threats or at least intrusions than like compliments.

If I pass a guy on the street and he smiles appreciatively and says something like "Looking fine today!" and then looks away and KEEPS WALKING, I'm okay with that. Makes me feel like I'm looking fine. If he stares at my tits, or turns to watch me walk, or wants some further interaction, that's very much like grabbing.

I was 18 or so, standing room only on a bus, and someone reached BETWEEN my legs to grab my crotch with his whole hand. My instant non-thinking reaction was to elbow him in the face and yell "get your hands off me!" Gave him a nose bleed. He made a big stink about it, holding his nose and calling me bitch and whatnot. I got off at the next stop. But I was very proud of myself.

But the worst time was in London, on a really crowded bus heading toward the Royal Albert Hall, the 50-something business-attired guy who was packed in behind me got a hard-on and rubbed it against my thigh every time the bus would sway and move us. The bus had become so crowded I literally couldn't move away. (We won't go into the claustrophobia issues I was having.) I glared at the perv, but he wouldn't meet my eyes. I hissed "Stop it" at him, loudly, and he gave me that "What rock did you crawl out from under?" haughty English gaze and KEPT DOING IT. I was trying to decide what to do next when finally we arrived and everyone disembarked. "Pervert" I said to him loudly as we filed off the bus. But I felt like an idiot, not being able to stop it, or get up the nerve to make a big enough scene. I pride myself on not taking that sort of shit from anyone, but that happened just a few years ago.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001

The only time I've actually gotten grabbed was in college when I was walking across campus, and two younger boys (probably teenagers from town) rode by on a bike, one of them grabbing my ass as he whizzed by. I yelled Fuck You really loudly, and then promptly started crying. A faculty resident advisor happened to be outside his dorm playing with his kids, and came over to ask what was wrong, and I got embarrassed that I cursed in front of his little kids. I do have to say that I have hardly ever felt as angry as I did after that event. If I had had a baseball bat at my disposal and the ability to catch the guy I would probably have beaten the crap out of him without thinking about it too much. That my reaction was so powerful scared me as much as, if not more than, the initial event.

In response to getting comments on the street, very occasionally I will find them flattering, if they are subtle and not creepy and the guy is clearly not acting in even an assertive way - things like an extra cheerful "hello there" that communicates they find you attractive but is not threatening. However, I've had men say some really rude things to me on the street ("nice tits", "hey there baby, you look reeeeaaaal nice" said in a very lecherous way) and have gotten extremely aggressive responses to even my lack of response ("don't ignore me bitch" as I walked past without making eye contact). One time I lost it and told a man to fuck off when he said "hey you got some fine tits there". He then approached me across the street, started threatening me, yelling at me for not taking a compliment from a black man, and saying he would cut me and not to think that he wouldn't. I decided that arguing with him that anyone saying anything with the word "tits" in it wasn't going to get much respect from me wasn't the way to go. I ended up very quickly walking the block down the street into my apartment building. Even though I didn't want him to know where I lived, I also didn't want to get assaulted. (Neighbors on their porches didn't say a thing, although I like to think if the guy started actually hitting me they would have at least called the police). I made a report with the police, flinched every time someone of his rough size was on the street with me for a week or so, and decided never ever to talk back to a man on the street again. I probably wouldn't elbow someone in a club either, as much as I would want to. Although, with lots of people around I'm a fan of saying something loud and embarrassing like "get your hands off my ass you dirty old man".

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001

Wow, Joy, I, too was a victim of a bike-by groping by a random teenager, back when I lived in Cambridge! I was more stupefied than upset, though.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001

I hate being startled (getting honked at is really really disturbing to me because it startles me so much), so I think my not even knowing there was anyone behind me until I got grabbed contributed a lot to how upset and angry I got. I went through this weird phase of feeling violated, but then being upset with myself for feeling violated when the grabbing wasn't that big a deal - I didn't get hurt, and didn't even feel threatened like I have with verbal interactions on the street. I guess that I get angry easily about having my space - even my attentional space - invaded by men who feel this need to impose their assessment of me on me.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001

I don't mind the catcalls to much- most of the time its kind of mood enhancer. I've been groped at bars, and I definately don't like it. An ex-bf kicked the shit out of some guy cause he saw him do it to me. I think one punch I could have dealt with, but this was way to much. I dumped him the next day, and called the other guy to say sorry to him.

I,uh, did make one huge faux pas though. We had just closed a show, tore down the set and then went out for a party. This being a university town, all bars were very very full. So we ended up at a gay bar. Started drinking, all were very tipsy, having a great time. Dancing. Out of nowhere, a hand goes between my legs, another one from behind grabs my boob. I was startled to say the least. I whipped around. The girl was HORRIFIED. She thought I was someone else. Someone that it would be ok to do that. I started laughing - I was hysterical. And I of course had to say "I'm not into that". How arrogant of me.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001

Joy, I can relate to your experiences. I also hate being startled and my worst grabbing experience has been on campus. I was walking to my boyfriend's after class one night and a man ran up from behind and grabbed my ass. I screamed and the guy ran off with me yelling furiously at him. It didn't occur to me to be scared at first - I was just really pissed. Now when I tell the story some of my friends find it funny, but I still find it disturbing. It occured to me later that I was hearing footsteps behind me, I just didn't think anything of it. The guy must've followed me from campus. What kind of guy gets his kicks doing that? The police told me I was lucky nothing worse happend. Apparently this guy has been doing this off and on (too bad I didn't get a good look at him) and they haven't been able to catch him.

This kind of stuff never has happend to me in crowded places. Usually it is somebody getting too close and brushing by me in a store. It makes me angry, but it could be unintentional, so I can never say anything to the guy. Anyone else have this problem? Maybe this is only because I tend to avoid crowded places.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001

I wasn't going to share this but, since everyone else is getting personal....

Once, during my teens, I was playing b-ball. The guy I was guarding had no problem reaching down, between other guy's legs and groping a penis. Actually, this guy was tall and had huge hands, so he didn't grab penis only, he grabbed the whole package - nuts, penis, a mound of pubes -- he got it all. I think I must've went into shock or something when he did it cuz when he got the ball all I could do was stand there.

After the shock wore off I was hot. Not sexy hot but mad as hell hot. I knew if he did it again, we'd be particpating in our own version of FIght Club. Unfortunately, I missed out on the oppurtunity to get a black eye, bloody nose or broken rib. Apparently our opponents were nothing but a group of penis grabbers. On the trip back up court, near the halfcourt line, I heard one of my African-American teammates yell, "Motherfucker! Told you not to do that shit again!" And quicker than a bike riding butt grabber the fight was on. The game was called.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2001

I've been grabbed on more than a few occasions -- usually in crowded situations where the guys thought they could get away with it. One guy tried the hard-on-crotch-dance at a very crowded party when I was in college. I told him to stop and he pretended not to know what I was talking about. I turned away from him and he did it again. I reached back, grabbed his entire package, as rudeboy would say, and yanked and said, "If you fucking do it again, I'll break it off." And I meant it. And he knew it. Several women around me applauded, so I wasn't the first victim.

I've had a "You do it, you'll draw back a nub," policy ever since. I'm short / blonde / petite, and for some reason beyond rational thought, guys I don't know but meet for the first time will think I would welcome whole-body hugs. Well, they used to. Now, they'll start toward me with that look in their eye and I'll give them the policy look above and they usually fumble around and find something else to do. It's not a natural thing for me to be a take-no-prisoners type, but after many bad events escalating and turning simple outings into hell, I realized I was going to have to take control.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2001

I'm thrilled you said that, toni - when I read Jen's and again when I read Viv's, I had an immediate and strong image of instinctively grabbing the guy in question and giving a big yank and twist. I've never had it happen in reality (although I hate tight crowds enough that I haven't often been in a situation where the potential is there), but my reaction to reading it was strong enough that I have a feeling that's just what I'd do before I had time to think about it. (and then *I'd* probably wind up being carted off to jail for assault. aii.) Apparently, though, these guys feel pretty secure in the inherent 'niceness' or at least squeamishness of the women they try it on, because you'd think they'd be very afraid of just that happening. I mean, you're in a crowd - you can be a lot more confrontive than if you're alone somewhere. The only real danger is embarrassment - we gotta get over being so concerned by that that fools like these jokers can take advantage of it without consequence.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2001

Oh gad. Apparently Condit is the kind of guy who does this. (Which still doesn't explain the mindset)

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2001

Lynda, I finally came to the conclusion that I didn't do anything more dramatic because I wasn't in my own country. Which makes no real sense, but it the only thing I've been able to come up with. It would have been different on an L.A. Bus. Whatever.

But after thinking about it back then, I realized that it is important to act decisively when confronted with shit like that. It *should* make you angry and cause a defensive reaction. If I'd grabbed his nuts and squeezed hard while telling him to stop it, he would have. And he might have have thought twice about doing it to someone else. I've promised myself I won't react so helplessly again, no matter where I am.

I understand Italy is full of ass grabbers, so I'll get to practice there in December. Heh.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2001

Lynda, thanks for that link to the article on Condit. I read it and thought, geez, what a total skanky creep. But the author, a woman who had experience working for Condit and who had been warned by other women about being alone with him, and who was careful about what she wore lest she be thought of as one of those women who were hired for other things other than her intelligence and work skills... criticizes the Democrats for putting up with Condit and rallying to help him cover his tracks. Is it just me, or is this the pot calling the kettle black? I mean, seriously. First, putting all the mysogynistic comments aside (the assumption that a mode of dress automatically dictates a woman's capabilities and the level of respect she deserves)... why the HELL didn't these 'older women' who warned the 'younger women' about Condit band together and get the bastard in trouble? I could understand fearing losing their job if it was just one of them, but if it's several, surely there's something that could have been done. And if women won't stick together and back each other up when they are themselves the victims of this kind of harrassment, whey in the hell should they expect the good ol' boys of the Congress to do any better? Especially if many of them are following his example and getting away with it?

I know this author felt like she was demonstrating how rancid Congress was in recent sexual misconduct events, but what she really showed is how shabby we women will allow ourselves to be treated, and how really powerless we feel. This article was the saddest commentary on thes state of women's mindset and determination to be treated fairly in the twenty-first century that I've seen in a long time.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2001

Toni,

Having had some friends who work for politicians, political parties, and some of the big nonprofits, it's sad to say this sort of behavior is really common. People don't want to rat out a politician from their party because they're afraid the other side will have a field day with it. People somehow look at patriarchs of certain nonprofits as being "allowed" to treat women like that because they're such a great civil rights crusader or something.

It really grosses me out.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2001

Toni - I agree... I think it's the same thing I was trying to say above - we are so freaking bound by making sure we behave properly ('we' meaning women, but also most decent men too) - that we don't screw up someone's career, don't call attention to ourselves as aggressive, in a political setting, for heaven's sake don't be disloyal to the larger needs of your party... basically, don't be noticed in any negative sense, that those who are being disgusting without being noticed for it can get away with it. They absolutely count on their victims being more civilized than they are, and in fact get outraged when anyone is 'rude' enough to call them on the behavior.

It's all very discouraging. (why are all these threads tying together - isn't this another variation on the book about not being afraid to be rude?)

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2001

Yeah, Lynda, you're completely right. I think what got to me about that article was the author's self-delusion. She was so busy being self-righteous about the Congress, she failed to see that she and the other women had done the same thing and had allowed him to move further up the power scale by not doing something right then. And you know, I knew you were right about women being too shy or too worried about what people think about their behavior (etc.) whenever they were singled out for harrassment. It's true -- I suffered in the same way until enough bad things happened that I took a stand. I think what bothered me so much was how compliant groups of women are, still, when this kind of behavior occurs. This whole 'don't rock the boat' group-think has got to stop if we ever hope to make changes.

David, I know what you mean. I've seen it here (Louisiana has corrupt politics as the local sport) and in business -- people weigh the political fall-out of getting rid of the assholes instead of weighing the political benefit of opening up a space and making room for someone better to step up to the plate. But you know, if one party started it, and made no excuses -- just started getting rid of the scum, they would (probably rather quickly) appeal to a broader audience because they would have proven themselves honorable... and the other party would look corrupt by comparison and would be forced to clean house as well. It's so doable if the good people in a party would quit worrying about looking like a whistle-blower and care more about doing right; it just takes wanting to buffet the short-term fall-out for the long-term gain. (Which most parties won't do, I realize.) (sigh)

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2001

people weigh the political fall-out of getting rid of the assholes instead of weighing the political benefit of opening up a space and making room for someone better to step up to the plate.

Do you think women are discouraged from taking on risk? Are the penalties for women sticking their necks out more severe than for men?

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2001

Amanda,

I don't know that I would have an answer to that one. For that particular quote you highlighted, I was thinking more in terms of "when a party or entity recognizes it's got someone in a position of power who is abusive in some way"... instead of simply looking at the abuse, they will look at the fallout and how will getting rid of the person give the competition a lot to use against them. When something is as bad as Condit is, whose antics are well-known by colleagues and superiors, there is a duplicit (or maybe complicit?) understanding within that organization that getting rid of him may give their competition more publicity, more ammunition to use publicly... than just keeping him. They rarely weigh (at least, from what I've seen) the possibility that getting rid of him might yield a spot for a much better person, whose good PR will so far out-weigh the leverage the other side gained, that it would be worth the risk.

(Um, I think I'm making that point as clear as mud. Sorry to be so obtuse this morning. Up too late working.)

But as for your question, it's possible that women still have more obstcales and penalities for blowing the whistle than men. But men get penalized as well for trying to stick up for people. (A friend here who works for huge chemicle company had his career set on the 'no promotion' track when he saw a female co-worker being continually harrassed and he agreed to be a witness for her when she made the complaint. The offending party was transferred -- with benefits intact. The woman and my friend have no possibility of promotion and know it. He doesn't regret sticking up for her, but the very subtle way the 'no promotion' track was done is something he cannot prove in a court of law, in spite of the fact that his immediate supervisor (upon quitting later) told him.) Anyway, there are consequences for speaking up -- which is, I'm sure, what women have been long conditioned to weigh. Do I keep my job and feed my children or do I complain about the supervisor's straying hands? Still, if we don't do it, especially when it's well-known by whole groups of women, there will never be change. (I feel this applies to men as well.)

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2001

I agree with you that there are consequences for everybody in these situations. Pushing against the status quo is dangerous stuff.

Anyway, there are consequences for speaking up -- which is, I'm sure, what women have been long conditioned to weigh. Do I keep my job and feed my children or do I complain about the supervisor's straying hands?

So far, luckily, I haven't had to deal with sexual harassment in the work place and I'm sure that issues surrounding that get even more complex. I guess I'd like to know that more women feel strong enough to challenge and not lose their jobs.

I was talking to a girl last night who had begun a new job as an admin assistant and because she had some web skills, her company (a small, non-profit) decided that she should re-do and be responsible for their website and wouldn't it be neat if she'd take over the responsibilities that they had outsourced to another company, and were currently spending gobs of money on. And, she would need to do it in her spare time.

To add insult to injury, they have a 20-year-old "computer guy" who gets all the special treatment and they consult him to ask if they need to buy programming books for the girl.

What I told her is that she really needed to stick up for herself and really needed to leverage on the the needed training for doing the job and that she *had* to play the game and make allies with this 20- year-old. Her first response was, well, I don't want to push too hard; I don't want to lose my job.

I suppose that's valid but it just seems to me that guys have an easier time sticking up for themselves (still) and that women are more fearful that everything will get taken away from them.

Okay... sorry for the early a.m. rant.

-- Anonymous, July 15, 2001

chemicle = chemical. Whey (above) = why. Geez, you'd think a writer could spell.

Amanda, yeah, I think that's often the case -- a lot of women automatically assume that if they put up a fuss, things will be taken away. Where does this start in life, I wonder? We can't say it's a relgious thing per se, because plenty families do not espouse any relgion and the daughters are still taught to take a back seat. (Or we could say this is a standard of quite a few religions and one of the few overlapping tenets of various faiths is that women should be secondary.) Not an easy question, certainly.

-- Anonymous, July 15, 2001

Just to be clear, does it really have to do with being female so much as being lower on the corporate pecking order? I can't see a female vice president putting up with sexual harassment from a male CEO, while I can easily see a male in a subordinate position putting up with harassment -- sexual or otherwise -- from a supervisor out of fear of losing his job.

I mean, it happened to me in a way ... I had a female supervisor at a previous job who laid blame for her mistakes on me several times, and made my life miserable in other ways too. I didn't complain because I knew it would simply make things worse and possibly endanger a paycheck I needed. It's not the same as sexual harassment, but it is unfair and unprofessional behavior that nobody really should have to tolerate.



-- Anonymous, July 15, 2001

MichaelH, it doesn't have to be either/or. It's about power. So the corporate hierarchy is important, so are all the others things that affect your access to power and your amount of support both within a particular system/institution and in the larger world: race, age, ethnicity, social class, ability, gender, etc etc. all the things that can make you an insider or an outsider.

the last time I was actively groped was at a Helmet show in 1992 in Cleveland Ohio. I was an avid slamdancer, and I loved to go up on the crowd. but this guy reached up and squeezed my breast and laughed in my face. I was totally stunned and furious. In a male-dominated scene, it was hard to speak up. nobody else did anything (tho I'm sure somebody saw). But I felt I had support because I was involved with Riot Grrrl, and was feeling much more able to speak up. But if I hadn't felt I'd had some backup, I would never have said a word, and would have probably lost my enthusiasm for that scene. well i kinda did in the end, because I felt that vibe increasing. But I think that was the show where I ended up asking for the mic, and got up onstage (between sets) to ask the crowd to be more respectful, and not molest anyone in the pit.

-- Anonymous, July 16, 2001