Water supply/well/pressure tank question

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Last winter it got below freezing and stayed that way for weeks on end. The entire time I had no water - I'm guessing the check valve was freezing, because the PT was fine (its 80' away and in the house, pipes and PT itself wrapped in electric pipe tape). Could not get water from the "frost free hydrant", which is a two foot bury and right up against the well casing, or practically so. I have noticed the hydrant is leaning at a significant angle (not straight anymore) as well, I'm not sure what the guy did when he installed it but there is something wrong.

What I THINK is that the hydrant is installed right on top of the check valve with no thermal break, so when it gets really cold the metal pipe of the hydrant conducts heat (from warmer underground to freezing above ground) and the check valve freezes, ergo no water will flow into the hydrant.

Also the PT is a piece of crap. It's an 80 gallon PT, and if the draw down on it is much over five or ten gallons I'll be dipped. I only have to have the hose on for about 3 minutes, and the pump is kicking in. Pressure is set to standard, I forget what that is, but its what most folks have it set to. I've watched the pressure guage, it operates in the normal range.

Now, I've been told that a PT anywhere in the line pressurizes the whole system. Is that true? I get very little pressure by the time I run the water through a hundred feet of hose and up a slight incline to the garden. Can't operate an overhead sprinkler up there no how no way (I know, they're wasteful anyway, but the Irrigro irrigation hose is an item for next year, and the overhead sprinklers are far and away cheaper, but unfortunately virtually useless under these conditions)

Next year I'm going to get started on my geodesic dome, and the current house (when the dome is finished) will become my workshop/canning kitchen/office. Also going up will be a pole barn, I will need water there and water (eventually) in the dome. The dome itself will probably not actually go up until the year after next; I will spend the fall/winter building the panels and storing them in the pole barn.

Anyway. My question is two-fold. What might be wrong with the steenkeeng NOT-frost-free-hydrant that it keeps freezing up and shutting off the water; and how do you handle multiple points-of-delivery in your water system? I'm inclined to replace the sucky PT - if I do, would it do any good to keep the sucky PT in line somewhere (if so, where) or should I just pitch it? In a multiple point of delivery system, what's the best place to put the PT?

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 05, 2001

Answers

first,,what size pump do you have? how deep is the well. I dont know a thing about the hydrants,, dont have them. COuld you insulated it with hay bales or something? You didnt say where you are

-- STAN (sopal@net-port.com), August 05, 2001.

Sojourner, DON'T chuck the Steeenking PT. Not yet. You didn't give us enough info to say for sure, but it doesn't sound like it's the pt.

Three minutes. is this from shut-off to cut -n pressure? How many gallons does that translate to? (measure how long it takes to fill a gallon bucket in seconds. Divide this number into 60 This is how many gallons per minute is coming out of your hose. Now multiply this number by how ever many minutes it takes to go from "shut off" down to "cut in", without the pump running. The result will be how many gallons of drawdown you have.

Now, one more bit of data collection. When the pump cuts in, how long does it take to reach shut-off? This, along with the gallons of drawdown, will tell us how many gpm your pump is producing, and may help in the analysis as well.

Next question: what type of pt do you have? It could be a "captive air", also known as a bladder bag, or bladder tank. It could be an "air recharge" system, in which the pump puts some air into the system each time it starts. It could be a "diaphram tank", which needs to be manually recharged periodically. It could be just a plain tank, which will need manual recharging more frequently than the diaphram.

The air recharge system is fairly fool proof, but has a lower capacity, in gallons, than a bladder type. The others will vary in their capacity, depending on how long it's been since recharge.

An air bladder will sometimes need recharging too. There should be instructions printed on the top of the tank.

If you can tell us what kind of tank you have, it'll help a lot.

Also, if you can tell us what the pressure is at cut in and shut off, that would also help.

As for the lack of pressure at the end of your hose, which is running up the hill, that is definitely not attriibutable to a bad pressure tank. It is likely that you have the pressure switch set too low, or perhaps the hose you are running is too long for the amount of water you need to run the particular sprinkler. If it's a 1/2" hose, for instance, there is a significant amount of pressure loss over a hundred feet, depending on how many gpm the sprinkler uses. If your pressure switch is adjusted properly, it may be as simple as using a larger diameter hose, or a sprinkler with lower water flow requirements. As far as why your cold weather shut off your water, there are a jillion possibilities, unfortunately. Did you happen to look at the pressure gauge next to the pressure tank (I hope that's where it's located, anyhow)? In other words, was there pressure at the pt?

Where is the pressure switch located in relation to the tank and the well? Could the nipple under the pressure switch have gotten frozen? This is a common occurence, and can cause the pump to "think" that the system is pressurized when it's not, because the water can't drain out of this nipple when the pressure goes down, because it's frozen.

I'd just about need a drawing, or a lot more description of the set up to even attempt to figure out the freezing problem after the fact. You said, "Now, I've been told that a PT anywhere in the line pressurizes the whole system. Is that true?" Yes. More or less. It won't pressurize anything separated from it by a shut valve, or a check valve, depending on which way the check valve is oriented.

By the way, I don't know about your check valve freezing. This check valve is what, underground next to the well? Is there another check valve between the well and the pt? If the check valve you mention is between the well pump and the pressure switch, and is frozen, the pressure switch would likely turn the pump on when the pressure went down from water use, but the pump would be unable to pressurize the lines downstream from the frozen valve (or frozen pipe, for that matter. If this happened, I'd expect the pump to either switch itself off from overheating, or even burst the pipe between the pump and the freeze.

See what I mean? There are too many darn possibilities!

If you were having the problem NOW, I could most likely walk you through some tests to isolate the problem.

Hope this didn't get you even more confused!

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), August 05, 2001.


Sojourner, DON'T chuck the Steeenking PT. Not yet. You didn't give us enough info to say for sure, but it doesn't sound like it's the pt.

Three minutes. is this from shut-off to cut -n pressure? How many gallons does that translate to? (measure how long it takes to fill a gallon bucket in seconds. Divide this number into 60 This is how many gallons per minute is coming out of your hose. Now multiply this number by how ever many minutes it takes to go from "shut off" down to "cut in", without the pump running. The result will be how many gallons of drawdown you have.

Now, one more bit of data collection. When the pump cuts in, how long does it take to reach shut-off? This, along with the gallons of drawdown, will tell us how many gpm your pump is producing, and may help in the analysis as well.

Next question: what type of pt do you have? It could be a "captive air", also known as a bladder bag, or bladder tank. It could be an "air recharge" system, in which the pump puts some air into the system each time it starts. It could be a "diaphram tank", which needs to be manually recharged periodically. It could be just a plain tank, which will need manual recharging more frequently than the diaphram.

The air recharge system is fairly fool proof, but has a lower capacity, in gallons, than a bladder type. The others will vary in their capacity, depending on how long it's been since recharge.

An air bladder will sometimes need recharging too. There should be instructions printed on the top of the tank.

If you can tell us what kind of tank you have, it'll help a lot.

Also, if you can tell us what the pressure is at cut in and shut off, that would also help.

As for the lack of pressure at the end of your hose, which is running up the hill, that is definitely not attriibutable to a bad pressure tank. It is likely that you have the pressure switch set too low, or perhaps the hose you are running is too long for the amount of water you need to run the particular sprinkler. If it's a 1/2" hose, for instance, there is a significant amount of pressure loss over a hundred feet, depending on how many gpm the sprinkler uses. If your pressure switch is adjusted properly, it may be as simple as using a larger diameter hose, or a sprinkler with lower water flow requirements. As far as why your cold weather shut off your water, there are a jillion possibilities, unfortunately. Did you happen to look at the pressure gauge next to the pressure tank (I hope that's where it's located, anyhow)? In other words, was there pressure at the pt?

Where is the pressure switch located in relation to the tank and the well? Could the nipple under the pressure switch have gotten frozen? This is a common occurence, and can cause the pump to "think" that the system is pressurized when it's not, because the water can't drain out of this nipple when the pressure goes down, because it's frozen.

I'd just about need a drawing, or a lot more description of the set up to even attempt to figure out the freezing problem after the fact. You said, "Now, I've been told that a PT anywhere in the line pressurizes the whole system. Is that true?" Yes. More or less. It won't pressurize anything separated from it by a shut valve, or a check valve, depending on which way the check valve is oriented.

By the way, I don't know about your check valve freezing. This check valve is what, underground next to the well? Is there another check valve between the well and the pt? If the check valve you mention is between the well pump and the pressure switch, and is frozen, the pressure switch would likely turn the pump on when the pressure went down from water use, but the pump would be unable to pressurize the lines downstream from the frozen valve (or frozen pipe, for that matter. If this happened, I'd expect the pump to either switch itself off from overheating, or even burst the pipe between the pump and the freeze.

See what I mean? There are too many darn possibilities!

If you were having the problem NOW, I could most likely walk you through some tests to isolate the problem.

Hope this didn't get you even more confused!

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), August 05, 2001.


Sorry for "repeating myself"! I don't have a clue how that happened. Dave, would you please delete one of my seemingly identical posts? I thought that it was impossible to double post.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), August 05, 2001.


Some suggestions: This time of year you can dig down to the bottom of your frost free hydrant and make SURE that it is draining at the bottom. The reason these are freeze proof is that when you shut the hydrant off, the water in the hydrant itself, drains out a hole at the bottom below your frost level. if the hole is plugged, the ground is saturated, or the valve is not adjusted properly, then the hydrant will not drain and the water will freeze. A frozen hydrant will not prevent water from getting to the house however. A low drawdown could be a symptom of a malfunctioning (not necessarily broken) pressure tank. More details are needed for more specific advice. Hope this helps! T.

-- T. Dolittle (dolittle@starband.net), August 07, 2001.


Its either a 1 hp or 1.5 hp pump, I can't remember which.  I can't remember the rate at which it delivers water either.  I'm a dummy, aren't I?

The well itself is 360' deep.

The pt operates between 25 and 40 psi - when it drops below 25, it kicks on the pump until its at 40 psi.

I don't know what kind of tank it is, but I'm willing to bet its whatever is cheapest.  I contracted originally for an 80 gallon tank.  He put in a 40 gallon tank.  That thing couldn't have had more than 5 gallons of drawdown, if it had that much.  I think it was defective, but what do I know.  At any rate, the pump would kick on within seconds of turning the water on, each and every time, and run the whole time the water was running.  It cost me an extra $200 to have him come out and put in the right size tank (always get it in writing.  *sigh*)

I'm not going to worry too much about the garden hose.  I'm putting Irrigro hose in there next year anyway, and that's going to require a flow limiter as it is.  The only other thing I need water up there for is the chicken coop, and that doesn't require high pressure.

I don't think it's the switch freezing, because even if that happened, wouldn't the water run until the pressure really did drop?  Maybe I don't understand how that works.  But if the pressure tank was fully pressurized and that switch froze, would it still keep the water from running?

I'm afraid I am more confused.  I'm not sure the guy who installed it could even answer all these questions at this point.  It's been two years since the pt went in, I think.
 

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), August 08, 2001.


I need to know where the tank, house, pressure switch, valves, etc are in relation to each other.

The nipple under the pressure switch CAN fool the pressure switch into thinking the pt is charged, because when the water in said nipple is frozen, it keeps the pressure up in the nipple, and hence, in the pressure switch. Then, you run the water, and when the pump should turn on, it doesn't, because the pressure switch is fooled.

If you were to describe the tank a bit more, mostly how it's plumbed, what types of fittings are on it, and so forth, I will be able to at least make an educated guess as to what kind of tank it is. For instance, if it's a bladder bag type, it will only have one pipe attached to it, typically. The water goes in to pressurize it, then drains back out when you use water.

A self air charging system, on the other hand, will have one pipe coming in from the well, and a different one going out (the other side, usually) to the house.

I'm not counting a pipe that comes out only for the pressure switch or the pressure gauge.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), August 09, 2001.


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