Yesterday I had to do a very unladylike thing. I ran a propane guy off my land! When we bought the house, the seller told us that he had purchased the 125 gal. propane tank and that it went with the house. That was over a year ago. Then yesterday, this guy from the propane company shows up and wants to take the tank, says they only leased it to the seller and they want it back. Problem is, it is half filled with MY propane. I ran him off, but of course, he said he would be back.

1)Do I have any recourse since I bought the house and "all appurtenances attatched thereto at the time of closing"?, 2)If they do come for the tank, do I have any options regarding getting my propane out - and how to go about that? 3)Does anyone know of where I could buy my own tank if I need to?, and 4)Any idea of what one would cost, I imagine the shipping would be horrible.

Thanks for your help. Better now than in January...

-- Lori in SE Ohio (klnprice@yahoo.com), August 07, 2001

Answers

First who owns the issue. If its owned by the propane company regardless of what the previous owner told you, I am afraid you have little recourse with the propane company. Receiving stolen property is not something your going to win, even if you didnt know it was stolen. I would check your documents. Is the tank specificly listed or excluded? Call the seller and get the scoop from him. Sueing him for the value of the tank and fuel may be your only choice here. I would also ask the propane company for a copy of the contract that leased the tank.

Now for the fuel in the tank, Who filled the tank? When? Why no talk with the propane company and work out the issue. Your going to need a tank, your going to need fuel. Many people dont own the tank, they rent it as part of the fuel cost.

-- Gary (gws@redbird.net), August 07, 2001.

Is there a reason you don't want to stay with this company ? If you do not want to stay with them ask them to but the propane from you .

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), August 07, 2001.

I'm with asking for a copy of the lease and then discussing the issue with the company. They probably will issue a credit for the propane if they do take the tank. There could be some dispute if they in fact do own the tank as whether they are obligated to give you credit for fuel they did not supply. That's where the lease and a little negotiating helps. Explaining what you have been told may help smooth things out a bit.

We found when we moved that the propane cost is based on the amount and number of appliances. (NY) Due to only having the stove on propane it was the most expensive. There was a 100 pound cylinder here that was owned by the previous owners which, after trying to deal with a propane company, we decided to use. The company charged a fee for a pressure test on the stove and from there it just seemed to be a fee for this and a fee for that. We fill the tank two times a year and it is heavy. I have been told it is illegal (by a prpoane company sales person) to transport a 100 pound cylinder. Yet, many larger campers use them, there are several companies close by that have the scale to fill them and they were selling them at Central Tractor (which is now Quality Farm or something like that). I saw them there earlier this year. I did not see a price marked. I believe they are also located in Ohio so a phone call may get you the info. Regulators are sold here in NY in most hardware stores. They will be listed for gas grill use. The pressure is the same. You may want to ask about a regulator the same time you check on a tank.

It costs us about $28.00 to fill the tank each time and it was over twice that through a company. I try to keep a small tank in reserve because we have run out which is annoying. Most of the time if we fill it in May and October we are fine.

-- Tracey Burnash (burnash@gisco.net), August 07, 2001.

This is a very common happening in MO. Someone buys a tank from an individual, then a gas company shows up later for there tank. I think if the guy you bought the tank from does not provide you with some kind of paperwork on the tank, your up the creek. Maybe you can fight it out for your gas inside the tank. We bought our tank new to avoid this problem. And keep the bill of sale in a safe place too. We have a couple of major players in the propane business in this area who actually used to have a tracing table in the corporate office just for signing employees names to false non compete contracts. So if they will stoop to that, they will read the numbers off your tank and then later claim it. Don

-- Don (dairyagri@yahoo.com), August 07, 2001.

Check the tank to see if there are ANY tags on it. Here in Iowa they are usually up on top by the guages. If it is owned by the propane company there should be a tag on it saying it is the property of the propane company. If there are no tags, I don't think the propane company has a lot to go on unless they can produce a lease. Also get ahold of the realtor and/or previous owner to get their story.

We had almost a similar problem in that we bought our 1000 gal tank from the propane company on a lease to own. We couldn't get the company to come out and give us any fuel last winter so we had a friend that worked for another company slip us some. Somehow the first company found out and raised cain - we sent them a check for the balance on the tank and told them to get the tag off the tank immediately, which they did. We own the tank now and can have any company fill it, but any new company will check the tank for tags to see who owns it.

-- beckie (sunshine_horses@yahoo.com), August 07, 2001.

Well as far as I know no individual or company can reposses or take possession of anything on another persons property without a court order. It would be theft if they just came onto your property and took the tank without your permission. Now if they DO get a court order they can come and take it. If not, you can call the sherriff's department if they show up again without a court order.

If you do have any paperwork showing that the tank was purchased by you from the previous owner then you have a cause of action against them if they sold you a tank they didn't own. This should be small enough amount to be a small claims matter.

-- Stacia in OK (OneClassyCowgirl@aol.com), August 07, 2001.

One further thought on this, there is not one company here in NY that will fill a tank that is owned by an individual or another company. That's why we have to transport our tank to fill it. It must vary from state to state as to laws.

-- Tracey Burnash (burnash@gisco.net), August 07, 2001.

I had the same problem when I bought my house over 2 years ago. Without a receipt to prove you bought it from the previous owner,, you ouot of luck. The propane is YOURS,, they cant touch it , or the tank till its empty. I even tried sueing for it,, but to no avail. The onlt recourse, is t go after the previous owner for fraud.( He lied about the cvontent of the house) You just tell the propane company,, that when its empty,,you will call them, ,and they have 48 hours to get it,, after that you will charge 50 dollars a day for storage.

-- stan (sopal@net-port.com), August 07, 2001.

My son just bought a house and they said the tank way owned by the house owner and went with the sale. It was listed on the paper work with the sale of the place and 2 sheds. Well after he bought it he went to the place they said it was bought from and said I just bought this house and they said they bought the tank from you and I want to know how much you charge for propane. They said no that tank is ours they did not buy it and he said ok then show me they lease for it. He waited about a half hour and they could not come up with the lease and he told them that if they leased it they would have the lease handy for him to see so since they didn't he was taking his propane buying busness to the compatition haha he never heard back from them and he buys the propane from the other guy in town. So long as it is over half full they wont come get it haha

-- Teresa (c3ranch@socket.net), August 07, 2001.

Lori, I don't understand why you don't just continue the lease, if there really was a lease. On the other hand, when the propane folks return, if they do, demand proof of THEIR ownership. Possession is 9/10's of the law, supposedly.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), August 07, 2001.

Sometimes gas companies has used tanks that they are willing to sell for a fairly low price. If you can purchase one, the company you buy from will bring it out, install it and transfer the gas you have in the other tank at the same time. Gets the other 'company' out of there if that is what you want. I understand the feeling of being robbed---we had to purchase gas from the company we bought the tank from for the first year--we were on payment plans--so of course they charged us hugely. Once the tank was payed for I have not purchased gas from them since just because of their ethics.

-- (stephanie.wilkerson@experian.com), August 07, 2001.

Make the company trying to repossess the tank produce the paperwork. Since it was over a year before anyone showed up, I would be suspicious. If they do in fact own the tank,the lease would have been signed by the previous owner, not by you, so they have no signed agreement with you regarding the amount of fuel in the tank or the tank rental itself. I hope you have the receipt from when you had it filled last. Put a chain and lock on the tank in the meantime, so they can't do a "drive by" pickup. It will be up to the company to prove ownership of the tank.

We had bought our house a few years ago knowing that the 300 lb. propane tank (full) was leased by a local company. We had a couple 100 pound tanks of our own, so when I went to their office to take over the lease agreement, I told the lady don't deliver any more fuel, we'll use up what was just delivered and have you pick up the tank. I had told the driver who had just delivered to cancel deliveries. I had phoned their office and told the secretary to cancel deliveries. 3 months later the driver knocks at the door and hands me a bill for $57.00 worth of propane he had just put into the tank. I chewed him out. I phoned and chewed the secretary out. Then I made them chase me for a year for it. We used up the propane, and in spring they picked it up. There was no removal paperwork, so when they phoned me about past due amount, I told them where was the removal order, I had not signed for them to pick it up, and how much fuel was left in the tank? They claimed it was empty, I told them it was their word against mine, where was the proof? After many phone messages left on my answering machine, many past due notices mailed to me, including one registered letter which I refused to accept, they were screaming into the phone that they would send me to a collection agency. I sent them a $20.00 cheque and a very nasty letter, and told the manager to go collect the balance from incompetent employees who had been told THREE TIMES to CANCEL the deliveries. I also told him to check his files and see how many people, friends of mine, had switched to another company by my persuasion, and asked him, was it really worth all the bad publicity? Not to mention the amount of money and time it took to try to collect their measly $57.00.

Anyway...good luck with the tank, and don't let them push you around!

-- Chelsea (rmbehr@istar.ca), August 07, 2001.

The propane company does not have a right to come take something off of your property unless they can prove that it is theirs. This means they would have to show a contract/lease agreement that they had with the prior owner. If they have that, they have a right to take the tank. Your recourse is then to go back to the original owner for compensation and to court if they refuse. If it was listed on any of the real estate documents, you also have a recourse to the realtor. The gas company, however, doesn't have a right to the gas in it if you have your receipt that shows you bought it from another company. If I were in your shoes, I would contact the tank people and tell them you are willing to try to resolve the matter. Ask them to bring you a lease that they had with the previous owner and that if it is their tank, you would be interested in buying/leasing it from them. If it is a reasonable deal and there is no reason to believe otherwise, then that should settle the matter and you just have to go back to the original owner to recoup your loss on the tank. If there is nothing in writing in the real estate papers, then you are out of luck on that one as well. There is no sense in starting a battle with the propane company as they are just trying to get back their property (if it turns out it is their's). But it doesn't give them the right to take it without proving it is their's first by producing a lease.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), August 07, 2001.

If the lease was up over a year ago, you may have a claim that they abandoned their property by not claiming it a reasonable amount of time--not sure, but may be worth checking it out.

-- Brendan K Callahan (Grinnell, IA) (sleeping@iowatelecom.net), August 07, 2001.

Ah, many would be attorneys out there. You may be upset with the propane company and maybe they can not tresspass on your land and maybe they did sell it to the last owners. I won't address those issues. I will say a signifigant issue not addressed yet is your "privity of contract" that is who do you have a contractual relationship with? Why the seller of the home to you. If you have a beef about ownership of the tank take it up with the seller. Likewise if the propane co. has an issue it is with the seller of the home - not you. Send them a certified letter, return reciept requested, directing them not to tresspass on your property and explain, politely, that you have no contractual relationship with them and if they have an issue e.g. stolen property, file a report with the local law enforcement agency. Of course chain the thing down and report it stolen if it come up missing. If it comes up stolen, then (if it can be proven) you can take civil and criminal action against the propane company

-- mark (toymeister@hotmail.com), August 07, 2001.

Thank you all for your respnses. The prior owner had a fairly shady history of often being on the wrong side of the law. He may have misrepresented the situation to us at the time of sale. I contacted the realtor and asked her to track him down to see if he could produce a bill of sale for the tank. I am reviewing my sale documents of the house to see if there is any remedy there, but see nothing so far. I called the propane company, whose personnel are terribly nasty to deal with, and they finally and reluctantly agreed to wait until the end of the month for me to resolve this. They will take the tank, my propane and all, unless I can prove ownership. Or, I can lease the tank from them for another year for $25 so I can use up my propane and then call them to come and get the tank. Other than the principle of the matter, I do not want to lease because the lease propane prices are currently $1.79/gal here and only $1.15/gal if I own my tank. They will graciously sell me a new tank for $500. We only use the propane to keep the water pipes from freezing where they come into the house in an unheated area. We heat the rest of the place with wood. (AND NOBODY BETTER COME ALONG SAYING THEY OWN MY TREES!!!)

So, for right now, I am checking for proof of ownership, for any recourse with the realtor, and those failing, will lease the tank for this winter to use my propane, then tell that company to get lost and buy my own tank. What a racket. And I thought the wildly fluctuating prices were the awful part.

-- Lori in SE Ohio (klnprice@yahoo.com), August 08, 2001.

we recently had a problem with the propane company that wanted to condemn my kitchen stove but ...what we did was find a person who sold us a used 100# propane tank to keep just incase we run into this problem again in the future. We hunted around and did find an independent one man operation that still delivers when you call him and this helps with the cost of having more than you can afford too. I'd just hunt around for another small propane company. I can't stand the bigger companies telling you what you HAVE to buy with your hard earned money. Good Luck !!

-- Helena Di Maio (windyacs@ptdprolog.net), August 08, 2001.

Lori, pay the small amount of money to be able to use up your propane, then tell them to come get their #@&$ tank!!! And then, call General Propane in Martins Ferry, Ohio, they will bring you out a brand new tank, set it up, check your lines and fittings for leaks, install new line if needed, for FREE, and NO CHARGE EVER for the tank, AND propane from them is 99 cents a gallon!!!

Their toll free number is 1-800-232-3713.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), August 08, 2001.

We just had our propane tank filled today. It was $.85 per gal. We lease our tank from the gas company. It is a 1000 gal tank and we pay $64 per year. They maintain the tank, lines and take care of anything in the house that needs looked after. The only thing we use the propane for is the heater. So not much looking after. We get along fine with our local distributor and delivery man. Sorry you are having so much trouble. We are in S E KS and our gas company is Ferrellgas.

-- Belle (gardenbelle@terraworld.net), August 08, 2001.

Whew! Glad we are not in this situation.... We just built a new, in ground, energy efficient home. Uses geo-thermal runs with liquid to liquid heat exchanger, that sends out electrically heated fluid through out the floor for radiant heat. House is super insulated and very economical to run. We use propane to cook with. Love a gas cooktop. We did lease to own a 350 gallon tank from our local farm co-op. They are wonderful people to work with. No problems. We are good customers with our other business at the co-op, so I guess its just good business to treat us fairly.

On a side note, the driver of the truck falls over laughing everytime he checks the tank. We have a 2 foot diameter Budwieser sticker on the side. My wife says we should put a tapper on it too!

-- Rickstir (rpowell@email.ccis.edu), August 09, 2001.

HI LORI, SORRY ABOUT YOUR PROBLEM.HERE IS SOME INSIGHT. FIRST OFALL, ASK THE PREVIOUS OWNER IF HE HAS A RECIEPT FOR THE TANK, IF NOT ASK HIM WHERE HE BOUGHT IT, AND SEE IF THEY HAVE A RECORD. WAS THE GAS IN THE TANK WHEN YOU BOUGHT THE HOUSE, OR DID YOU CALL THE GAS COMPANY TO FILL IT UP, IF SO ASK WHY A NEW RENTAL AGREEMENT WASNT OFFERED THEN, THERE MAY BE A REASONABLE ANSWER. NEXT, IF THE TANK IS A RENTAL, THEN ANY REMAINING GAS DOESNOT BELONG TO YOU, SINCE THE GAS IS IN THE RENTAL TANK AND THE PREVIOUS RENTER NO LONGER RENTS THE TANK ALSO IRF THE TANK IS A RENTAL, THE GAS COMPANY IS WITH IN THEIR LEGAL RIGHT TO GET IT. THEY CAN TRESSPASS ON TO YOUR PROPERTY TO GET THE TANK.ITS NOT RECIEVING STOLEN PROPERTY SINCE THE PROPERTY WAS NOT STOLEN TO BEGIN WITH.(IM IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, THATS HOW I KNOW) HOWEVER,UNTIL YOU FIND THE RECIEPT AND I SUGGEST YOU HURRY, THE GAS COMPANY CAN TAKE THE TANK AND IF YOU RUN THEM OFF YOUR LAND, YOU COULD BE THE ONE IN TROUBLE.UNFORTUNATLY, POSSESSION IS NOT ALWAYS 9/10 OF THE LAW. IF THEIR NAME AND OR SERIAL # IS ON THE TANK THE BURDEN OF PROOF OF OWNERSHIP BELONS TO YOU.I SUGGEST YOU MAKE PEACE WITH THE GAS COMPANY AND ASK THEM TO GIVE YOU TIME TO GET YOUR AFFAIRS IN ORDER.OTHERWISE THEY COULD GET REAL DIRTY AND LEAVE YOU WITH NO GAS. GOOD LUCK CODY

-- CODY (URBUSTED@ALLTEL.NET), August 11, 2001.

HI LORI, SORRY ABOUT YOUR PROBLEM.HERE IS SOME INSIGHT. FIRST OFALL, ASK THE PREVIOUS OWNER IF HE HAS A RECIEPT FOR THE TANK, IF NOT ASK HIM WHERE HE BOUGHT IT, AND SEE IF THEY HAVE A RECORD. WAS THE GAS IN THE TANK WHEN YOU BOUGHT THE HOUSE, OR DID YOU CALL THE GAS COMPANY TO FILL IT UP, IF SO ASK WHY A NEW RENTAL AGREEMENT WASNT OFFERED THEN, THERE MAY BE A REASONABLE ANSWER. NEXT, IF THE TANK IS A RENTAL, THEN ANY REMAINING GAS DOESNOT BELONG TO YOU, SINCE THE GAS IS IN THE RENTAL TANK AND THE PREVIOUS RENTER NO LONGER RENTS THE TANK ALSO IRF THE TANK IS A RENTAL, THE GAS COMPANY IS WITH IN THEIR LEGAL RIGHT TO GET IT. THEY CAN TRESSPASS ON TO YOUR PROPERTY TO GET THE TANK.ITS NOT RECIEVING STOLEN PROPERTY SINCE THE PROPERTY WAS NOT STOLEN TO BEGIN WITH.(IM IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, THATS HOW I KNOW) HOWEVER,UNTIL YOU FIND THE RECIEPT AND I SUGGEST YOU HURRY, THE GAS COMPANY CAN TAKE THE TANK AND IF YOU RUN THEM OFF YOUR LAND, YOU COULD BE THE ONE IN TROUBLE.UNFORTUNATLY, POSSESSION IS NOT ALWAYS 9/10 OF THE LAW. IF THEIR NAME AND OR SERIAL # IS ON THE TANK THE BURDEN OF PROOF OF OWNERSHIP BELONS TO YOU.I SUGGEST YOU MAKE PEACE WITH THE GAS COMPANY AND ASK THEM TO GIVE YOU TIME TO GET YOUR AFFAIRS IN ORDER.OTHERWISE THEY COULD GET REAL DIRTY AND LEAVE YOU WITH NO GAS. GOOD LUCK CODY. ALSO ANY GAS I THE TANK WILL BELONG TO YOU. IF THE AGRE TO A RENTAL WITH THEM

-- CODY (URBUSTED@ALLTEL.NET), August 11, 2001.

Lori, how did you do with this situation? Let us know! Hope it was good!

-- TAB (burnash@gisco.net), August 13, 2001.