Mitsubishi Freqrol Z200greenspun.com : LUSENET : Elevator Problem Discussion : One Thread
Hi guys. I am working in a hotel in Lake Placid, NY. We have very old OTIS elevator which uses GE Fanuc SeriesOne Programmable Controller and Mitsubishi Freqrol Z200 for control. I personally have no clue about elevators, but I have some electric experience. Here is the problem we have. Some time ago one of the Fanuc Output Cards shorted out and we replaced it. After replacing the card and reseting the system, the elevator drove to the extreme lowest point (lower than basement floor) and shut off itself. We turned off the system and manually aligned the cart with the highest floor. According to lights on the fanuc controller all is ok, but the cart doesn't move. We had one amateur elevator repair guy say that the short might cause the Freqrol Z200 to short out too. We dont have any manual for it and no one knows how to operate the Freqrol. Right now we are stuck with no elevator and proffesional companies want $500+ just for estimate. Does anyone have any ideas we should try ? Manual for Freqrol Z200 ? Any kind of help ? Please reply. Also if any elevator repair people live in this area who would be willing to give us estimate for repair, please let me know.
-- Michael Piersa (email@example.com), August 08, 2001
You are in need of professional help.
"Pay the two dollars"
-- John Brannon (akaelevman@AOL.com), August 08, 2001.
For the safety of the people working on the elevator and for the people that are going to ride in it pay the money to a registered elevator company and have them fix the problem (and give it a service to...chances are u havent been getting it serviced if u r puting a post on this site asking us how to fix ur problem)...no amateurs should be working on any equipment....no life is worth cheap hotel management!!! my thoughts on the situation... phil
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 09, 2001.
Its amazing. Instead of any ideas about the problem I receive post about safety of people and about cheap hotel managment, ridiculous. Let me clarify something, we are not going to repair it ourselves. All we are looking for is to get idea what is wrong with it, cause we dont know if its going to be cheaper to repair it or to upgrade the whole controling panel. Considering that a estimate is $500+ and repair is $230/hr. Shocked ? Dont be, in this area one company bought out 3 others and created monopoly with radius of about 200 miles. Other companies don't want to drive 200+ miles to make an estimate. So please spare the "so cheap" talk. I only asked for help not lectures about safety. I still welcome any ideas what might be wrong with the elevator. Thanks
-- Michael Piersa (email@example.com), August 09, 2001.
The operative word is programmable. If something occured that took out a card you have most likely lost the program. The Fanuc series of controllers were very widely used about 20 years ago. I would be suprised if you could find anyone with the tool and expertise to repair/reprogram it. I would have to advise you to call your elevator service company or a consultant. It is already costing you money in time and inconvenience. Fred
-- Fred Baltes (Elman101@pacbell.net), August 10, 2001.
Your original posting gave the definite impression that you were working on the elevator yourself. You indicated that a card was replaced without solving the problem. If you didn't replace the card yourself, who did? And what did they say at that time?
The rates you quote are not shocking. They reflect the high cost of the skilled technicians who do this kind of work. Would you expect a company to make a 400 mile round trip to give you a free estimate and absorb the cost? Does your Doctor charge you for a diagnosis? Does your lawyer charge you for a consultation?
Any remote diagnosis based on the information provided would be a pure guess, not even an educated one.
Select a competent elevator service company (Otis is one obvious choice) and trust them a little.
Good Luck - sincerely
-- John Brannon (akaelevman@AOL.com), August 09, 2001.
Ok Guys. You must be joking... You are trying to compare "skilled" elevator technician with doctor ??? with lawyer ??? Come on be realistic. Elevator repairs is one of the over-the-net or over-the-mail courses you can take. Elevator is nothing more than electromechanics. So auto mechanic should also take $200 an hour because he is skilled auto technician. And yes we replaced the card, as I said I have electric background, and it doesnt take rocket scientist to see and replace shorted circuit board on the controller. Normal people do it every day in their own computers. Also almost all businesses give you estimate before repair, car repairs, electronic TV/Radio repairs, actually I can't think of anybody who doesnt offer free estimate, except elevator companies. Average Joe Elevator Repairman gets $20-$30 an hour out of $200 an hour company gets from us, good deal ? I think not. So please don't try to sell that "high cost" talk. Everything carries cost and its normal, but those prices are unrealistic...
-- Michael Piersa (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 09, 2001.
Just for your info-
Repairs are done by two man teams. So the $230/hour rate is for two men.
Of course they don't make $230/hour, but no business sells services for what they cost - not for long anyway.
There is a very considerable overhead cost to keep these people in the field, and, yes, profit is added.
I certainly don't suggest that elevator technicians are as educated as doctors or lawyers, but you sure can't learn to do it over the internet.
Generally, doctors and lawyers charge well over $230/hour for one person. Of course they have overhead too, not to mention the cost of all that education.
It IS a lot of money in either case - but that's the going rate!
-- John Brannon (akaelevman@AOL.com), August 10, 2001.
This is my last post on this forum. I dont see any reason to keep asking for help, if all I get are either immature or off-topic replies or harrasing and name calling personal emails. Thank you all for showing me with what kind of people I am dealing with. You make up your own stories (the psychic "I-see-unpaid-bills" guy), jump into hot arguments, you are all basically ready to start a "bar fight". And all this because I asked for help. Thank you all. Out of all people on this forum only one person came forward to help me with whom I am in email contact. Its a shame. You people are most greedy, unhelpful and overreactive people I've seen in a long time. And above all this you try to compare yourselves to profesionals. I can't call it a waste of time since I found some help here, but this was very unpleasent expirience for me. I have one thing to clarify, my intensions, "All I wanted was to get help to pinpoint the problem in the system, so we could decide if we want to repair or upgrade the system. I though one of you knows a way to run self-diagnostic (if such thing exists) on the Freqrol Z200 so we could do it or maybe someone had same expirience before with similar equipment. And for that I will never take $230 an hour "profesional". If all fails to determine the the source of the problem I will simply find an elevator repairman who will be willing to do some "Moonlighting" and give me estimate for $20-$30 an hour. We will not "play around" ourselves with program on the system or the Freqrol Z200 which is impossible to operate without manual or expertise. Paying to profesional company is unavoidable either way, if we want to repair or if we want to upgrade." So to all you profesional people I say goodbye, I hope I will never have a chance to deal with you and I really feel sorry for your customers.
-- Michael Piersa (email@example.com), August 10, 2001.
u were saying in a previous post mate that people exchange cars in their computer all the time which is true...u have forgotten 1 thing...people dont ride in computers and if u hurt ne 1 changing a computer card its usually yourself and not the public...and let me add being a lift mechanic is a very skilled trade...try and get any electrician of the street to read the straight lines and the majority of them will not get to far....so pay us the respect we reserve dammit!!
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 10, 2001.
Oh come on send some more. Just when I was being so entertained. You might get more help if didn't insult the people you are asking. Also you could leave out the bitching bout having to pay. I take care of some elevators with the Jap drive you are referring to and all I can tell without looking at it is there are many parameters to check. You need a tool. The drive is a piece of junk basicly. No good elevator man will contract to work on it for you, against union rules.(sure you wouldn't understand...benefits,vacation,paid holiday's,etc.)I feel sorry for the people who stay in your hotel and ride your elevator sport.
-- Richard Harrison (email@example.com), August 11, 2001.
personally i think this guy is pulling our crank, but if he isn't, he has no clue to what is going on in our field, learning what we do over the net or phone give me a break! let him try to fix it himself, or hire some rat company that can't fix it either. F him. so what do you hear about the convention? take care and work safe, woodman local #140
-- woodman (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 23, 2001.
If I had a £ for every person who thinks they can fix a lift.
PAY UP !!! YOU TIGHT GET..........
-- otis (email@example.com), October 06, 2001.
just saw this, realize I'm late with this response but can't resist; by the time this guy gets done fixing the problem he'll have to call one of us to get the car running anyway, meanwhile I know those bellboys are enjoying the hike...
-- cliff smith (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 28, 2001.
Updated News: I know you union freaks can't accept idea of earning less than lawyers or doctors, but you are not either and you simply DO NOT deserve this amounts of money for the work you do, period. You can attack me, diss me, call me names, whatever, that only shows your immature behavior, lack of intelligence, etc. I don't like dealing with bullies. But hey, you are the blue collars, its normal. One last thing, Screw you. It took some time, but we found a guy who is willing to do on-side work on our elevator (same "high" qualifications as all of you but non-union) for $50/hr which beats normal union company $230/hr. So SORRY, the elevator is repaired and running well (for about 5 times less money). To Phil@hotmail.com - Car mechanics dont go to car repair college and I doubt that many of them are highly skilled, but you still let them fix your car... what about that safety, mate ? Sorry if I offended anyone not involved in this argument, but those words are directed only to those who posted here attacking me, posting immature replies and acting like children. Those who helped me here, thank you.
-- Michael Piersa (email@example.com), October 30, 2001.
YOU SCHMUCK ! If you had any training at all I'd be surprised. Your comments are typical of a yuppie who doesn't understand the full implication of the choice to hire a "moonlighter" Does he carry insurance ? Did he give you a certificate to state that the elevator is now safe and that ,as the last to work on it he is now liable for any damage or injury sustained...LOSER !!!
-- mark (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 12, 2001.
-- M Tarbert (email@example.com), September 23, 2002.
Jeez, I know I'm very late in the game here, but I really need to say a few things: 1. I'm not an elevator mechanic. I'm an electrician, and have been for about 11 years. I have PLC knowledge, and have been working with VFD's and computerized motor control systems in industrial process plants for 7 of those years. In case this cheap moron in Lake Placid thinks the systems I work on are less accurate than elevator systems, try synchronizing an automated electronic fabrication line by "bringing it to the top" and hoping for the best at the bottom.
2. On top of a 4-year apperenticeship, I hold a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering.
3. I have played with elevator control systems in buildings scheduled for demolition, and in demonstration systems. I WOULD NEVER attempt to even replace a fuse in a running system. These things are complex, and while I may figure out what went wrong (after countless hours of studying diagrams, tracing circuits, and hunting down obsolete schematics and parts), it t would be much more economical, not to mention SAFER, to hire someone who has EXPERIENCE in these machines.
4. People ask for my advice all the time: at work, my neighbors at home, at Home Depot, etc. I usually try to feel out their mechaniclal ability level before giving advice. After talking with you for 5 minutes, Mr. Piersa, I wouldn't tell you how to change a light switch. You'd probably try to do it in a hospital. Ask a REAL electrician why you can't just go to Home Depot and get parts for hospitals...
5. You criticize the people of this forum who have offered you the best advice, and then call them stupid "blue collar" people, as if we/they are below you. I cite your grammar as evidence to the contrary. You claim to have "electric experience"...what the hell is that? You berate one responder for calling your equipment obsolete, and claim you never refered to it as obsolete. Did it ever occur to you that most of the people here have years, often decades, of experience with the systems you gave THE MODEL NUMBERS for?? Hell, even I could tell you the Fanuc line is out-of-date, and that you probably have a problem using a Freqrol controller on your system. Is the drive motor even an AC motor?
6. I AM NEVER staying in ANY hotel in or near Lake Placid. EVER.
7. You remind me of many slum-lords I have had to do service calls for. "Don't do it right, just do it cheap." You people piss me off for reasons you will never comprehend.
-- Mike Bingham (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 18, 2003.
For what It's Worth: Here is a hotel (started in 1901) in Lake Placid that had the web page designed by a Michael Piersa http://www21.brinkster.com/stmoritz/
-- Mark Richards (email@example.com), September 08, 2003.