I've been ambling about some other forums. At CS there is a post regarding chosing to live Amish. I can't help but continue to be floored by women who would chose second-class citizenship as a lifestyle (nothing particularly exclusive to Amish, and I'm not meaning to be offensive particularly, either.) Second-class status for women can happen in all sectors of society.

If you were African-American, would you feel happy to keep moving to the back of the bus? If you were Native American, would you be happy to accept that you could no longer speak your original language or wear your traditional attire?

Why would women chose to live a life-style that requires them to be submissive, keep their mouths shut, defer to their spouses (even if their spouses are abusive or idiots) and see their primary purpose in life as a reactor/breeder? I realize my above example poses gender issues against race issues, but I hope it makes some kind of point.

My ancestors worked hard to get the vote for women, only 80+ years ago. Equality was something that was seen as something very postive because it enabled both genders to finally be free to be authentic. Political equality was just a start. What appeals to folks to go back to rigid and unforgiving lifestyles?

Could someone please explain to me why this subjugation appeals to some women? I can't get this out of my head today...

(btw, I support women's choices to make decisions like this. I have always said it's about choice...but sheesh, not my choice....)

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001

Answers

Well, one thing that has come to my mind often is that some people don't want to make decisions for themselves. They want SOMEONE ELSE to take responsibility, to do the thinking, etc. Some are willing to give up quite a bit to get to that "taken care of" state.

I prefer to be out on my own, making my own decisions.

I also think that there are some people who are "into" punishment. Being happy is somehow sinful, etc.

I doubt either of these is true in all cases, but I think they can be factors.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001

Joy you're right but i still don't understand it! My highly intelligent sister chose to marry a strict Mormon and bought into the whole male dominance thing!! Makes no sense.

When I owned a business I had this fantistic women to whom I gave a huge raise. She would have made A lot more money than the men. She flat turned it down saying she felt more at ease making a bit less than the men!!!!!!! I kid you not!!!!

I just think we're just conditioned to play certain roles and we do so because its confortable, even if its not in our best interest...Kirk...GOOD THREAD

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001

Joy, I think you've hit the nail squarely on the head! There are some people who don't want to accept responsibility for their own lives. They want to be taken care of and be treated as children because that way, nothing is ever their fault.

Once, when I was very late getting home from a meeting my husband was waiting up for me. He was angry and asked "Do you have any idea what time it is?" I busted out laughing because I couldn't believe he'd ask me something so silly. I asked him if he thought he was my father. After he calmed down (and I quit laughing) he admitted he was just really worried. I've been late before but he's never asked me that quesion again.

Wishing you enough.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001

Since we're all opinionated and independent women, I think that it's very difficult to understand any other way of living. We all have different wants and needs and things that make us happy. If I was suddenly transported to an alternate universe where everyone was a tax accountant, everyone would be saying "Can you believe it, she actually has someone do her taxes for her! I could never live like that. Imagine letting someone else telling you how much money to send to the IRS. Doesn't she know how empowering it is to do your taxes yourself? She must just be too lazy to think for herself." I wonder if some women aren't as miserable having to be "liberated" as I am miserable every year at tax time? :)

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001

Oh please - go ask this ?? over on FSR. I am sure the fundamentalists will give you a multitude of biblical reasons. Little Bit is back on line, and I'm sure she would welcome the opportunity.

I come from a long matriarchal line (on Pop's side of the family, no less!). My husband has only the control over me that I give him. He has stated many times that he feels that our life is out of his control; I reply that his life is certainly within his control, as my life is within my control. He frequently bemoans the fact that I'm not willing to live a simpler life - on his income. Seeing as I have no interest in living in a refridgerator box somewhere; and the fact that I earn twice what he does in a year (because I am willing to get out and work the ungodly hours that he isn't) - you can bet that I won't be giving up my job anytime soon.

There is no way on earth that I would belong to any type of group or organization that attempted to control my actions to the extent that most religions do. What was the name of the Christian men's organization - promise keepers or some such??? I remember some of the men at work (in the factory) really talking it up; my opinion (voiced to my buddy Jon, whom they were trying to get to join, in the break room one day) was that if you needed that type of an organization to tell you how to act, you must be a piss-poor example of a man to begin with. He laughed, but only went to a few meetings. I could certainly come up with a list of men that could profit by some of that organization's beliefs; but then again - most of them would fit my above mentioned example. Most of them already had problems with controlling behavior anyway, I could see them just eating up this "man should be the leader of the household" stuff anyway. And then blaming their wives for problems in their marriages because their wives weren't falling in with the program. Sheesh.

Okay - rant over; safe to take those saucepots offa your heads, guys! I don't think the men on here are the type I'm profiling, anyway. Love you, guys!

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001

I belonged to a fundamentalist church years ago that had all those same beliefs. The women honored it because it was biblical and their one goal in life was to please God. There were some very "interesting" occurances resulting from those teachings.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001

I wouldn't convert to Amish (I'd be 'shunned' immediately) for the same reason I wouldn't buy property in a 'plan' or organized community. I want to decide what I do. My family and I may have to come up with a compromise, but I don't have to compromise with others. I want to have a compost bin or garage where I want to have it, and I would certainly never fit into a religious community. Can't understand relinquishing any freedoms---male or female.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001

Gender profiling Polly? There aughta be a law!!

Seriously tho I think it has to do with not wanting the responsibility. For example, my wife handles the money here. Why? Because I'm lousy at it. I handle the long term planning and goal making. Why? Because I have more foresight than my she does.

To each according to their strengths as far as I'm concerned.

I just read about some woman who wrote a book called "The Surrendered Wife". She was taking about how much better things are in their home now that hubby makes al the decisions. He's more "fulfilled" she sez.

It boils down to different strokes for different folks I guess.

-- Anonymous, August 10, 2001

This thread and the one on CS brings to my mind the parable of the blind men and the elephant. So many people having so many opinions about something that they know so little about, all a little bit true but none really "seeing" the elephant.

-- Anonymous, August 11, 2001

I've been reading that thread with interest too. I didn't bother with answering it, mainly because I didn't think that what she really wanted was my opinion anyway.

My first response was to think "Well, yeah! That's right there on my 'To Do' list....right under where it says 'Get Frontal Lobotomy'"

I guess I come from a long line of GDI's, but later on I got thinking that aside from it being evident that the poster has some kind of an image of the Amish up on a pedestal, perhaps it's sort of like being an alcoholic. You go to the AA meetings to be with others with the same problem for the support of the group and to keep you from falling off the wagon. If you're in a rigid frame, where your movement is controlled by the group, it will keep you out of trouble and on the straight and narrow.

Only trouble is, that's also what prisons do.

Me, I guess I'll just keep marching in my own little one-kazoo parade.

We have some cousins who are Right Wing Fundamentalist yadda-yadda sorts, one of whom was expounding to Joy about how he thought that it was Important that the Man make all the Decisions in the family and it was the Wife's Job to follow those decisions.

Joy sez "Oh I don't know about that--" (and he began to puff up on that of course!) " -- That'd mean HE gets to take ALL the blame when everything goes wrong!" har har!

On the other hand, if this woman who wants to join the Amish so badly goes and does, at least that takes her out of the voting pool. Thank Heavens for all favours.

-- Anonymous, August 11, 2001

I read the Amish thread over on CS last night when I was trying to catch up on forum reading. I agree with Diane. Lots of opinions from people who probably know little about Amish or anabaptists in general. I once read that in study after study, that the Amish came out as the most contented group of people in America. I wonder why? I've read some history books about Amish because my ancestors on my mom's side of the family were Conservative Mennonite and Amish. My great-grandma and grandpa left the Mennonite church, but we don't know why. As far as women wanting to be treated as second class people, I agree that's it's probably easier, you don't need to accept responsibility. My mom and mom-in-law are both like that. When our dad's died, they both were really lost. They really don't even go anywhere much because there is no one to give them permission anymore. My mother-in-law did't even know how to write out a check or how to take care of any bills. To call a repairman about something is a terrifying thing, because her husband always took care of all this. We try to encourage and support her that she can really do things on her own, but I guess there were too may years of being submissive.

-- Anonymous, August 11, 2001

I thought the Amish thread was fascinating, but I didn't get the feeling at all that it was mostly people giving opinions. What I heard was people sharing their own experiences with the Amish in their enviromnents.

I too have had quite a bit of interaction with Amish neighbors around my farm, mostly business transactions of course because for the most part they weren't interested in getting too close to the English. For quite some time I gave two different families rides to town in my van. The town is 45 minutes away, and those families always paid me about seven to ten dollars for a round trip,(usually with a check), and of course I waited while they did their shopping. They spoke to me very little while in transit, although I tried to start conversations, and gabbed away in "German" like I wasnt there. (I did enjoy trying to translate, since I took four years of German in HS!)I kinda considered it a community service, and to tell you the truth, I thought it was really cool to live near them, and believed all the romantic notions one hears about their lives, and felt greedy asking for much money from people who appeared to be so poor.

One year I had an Amish family process my turkeys.It was all done by the women of course, and my experience was not too positive all around, although I don't regret having had it. Although they had assured me they were very experienced poultry processors, I shudder to remember what I found when I went to pick them up. (These were supposed to be for sale, as I had told them). They had left the necks on, there were pinfeathers everywhere on the carcassas, some of the limbs had been bruised in the process of slaughter, (which when they admitted this to me seemed perfectly natural to them), and they charged me $8 to $12 each, which was 2 to three times what I had paid at an inspected plant! Lets just say it was clear they weren't into asthetics! When I arrived to pick them up, the birds were sitting in chill tanks, on the ground, from which their many dogs could and were occassionally drinking! OH it was one for my journal I tell ya.......

I have had many good experiences with Amish too. My horses were trained and analyzed by a very nice family;they did a wonderful job and treated the animals very well and charged me a reasonable fee; just last week we met a new family in the area at our yard sale. They were so talkative we had a hard time getting rid of em! In fact, he is interested in growing chickens for me. Very nice people, and their farm is much more tidy than mine ever was!

One thing I did notice right away most every time I dealt with Amish women was that I had a heckuva time getting them to make a decision. It would drive me crazy! I'd ask a simple question that required a simple answer and they'd have to discuss it amongst themselves endlessly. It seemed pretty clear they were not comfortable or accustomed to making decisions.

Anyway, those are just my experiences. Some people inferred the Amish were being bashed, but although there were lots of negative stuff on that thread and surely could have been more positive, my guess is its because people were trying to discourage this woman from making what seems to most of us to be a big mistake, so they dug up their own negative experiences.

I don't think there is anything you can say to discourage someone who has gone over the edge in literal bible believing. This is the only way they can feel comfortable in the world, because of their powerful fears. I think they feel so powerless as human beings that as aggravating as it can be to live in a prison of black and white rules, it is scarier still to be a fully actualized adult.

-- Anonymous, August 11, 2001

It is scary, being an adult isn't it? Every once in awhile I wish I could just go back to being a kid. Then I remember how unaware I would be about many, many things, and I remember how little autonomy I had . . . . Then I decide that, yes, it's better to be an adult. Mostly. ;-)

-- Anonymous, August 11, 2001

Yup, John - guilty as charged on the gender profiling; probably has something to do with what I see most of in my job. There are wonderful men out there; just as there are idiotic women (want to hear my opinions on the Million Moms stuff?!) and vice-versa.

In our house; I direct deposit from each paycheck a specific amount of money into my husband's checking account and he pays the bills. Given that my work schedule is so crazy, I can never keep track of what day it is or what is due when - I'd rather keep track of when Sissy is cheering at what game and where. He cooks, I cook, Sis nukes the leftovers! He cleans, I clean. The house is mine, the shop is his. Pop mows the yard, he mows the lots and edges, I weed the garden - which explains why the yard looks lots better than the garden this year! I'm writing the list, he's going for groceries today. I don't want to have to ask someone if I can spend the money I bust my butt to earn; or for that matter - ask them if I can work outside of the home to earn money. I want to associate with people that I have things in common with, and go when and where I want, without asking. Doesn't mean I don't discuss things with Hubby, just means I don't have to feel like I'm begging permission.

-- Anonymous, August 11, 2001

One of the things I appreciate so much about this forum,is that you are all pretty open minded.But I could say I am open minded,but give room only for that which I understand.I would never dream of passing a comment on for instance... a pagan wedding.Cuz I've never been to one,how could I understand why they do what they do.The Amish thread really got to me.I have dear,sweet friends who were hurt there ( living in the Amish)and it frankly taught me a big lesson.We have to make our choices like em says ,as fully actualized adult humans,and learn and grow from them.Sheepish,I understand why women choose that,I am a very strong,and I think well adjusted person, but I do enjoy the liberty I have in giving some responsibilities over to my spouse.I am not an advocate that says thats the only way it works,its just what works for us.I definately agree that sometimes choices are made out of fear,but if we broadbrush everybody we will be just like them!Love and killer dustbunnies.

-- Anonymous, August 11, 2001

As I said, "I support women's choices to make decisions like this." I just don't get why some women make the choices that they do. I know very little about the Amish and made my commentary based on what I have read, online or otherwise. My question and position really has very little to do with the Amish, other than to use their culture to frame my question. A woman does not need to join the Amish to be subservient to her husband. She doesn't have to belong to a church or anything else. She can just make the choice. Millions of women do everyday, to some degree or another. It's cultural.

In a perfect world (or in a much-less perfect one) I could understand the reasoning behind being subservient to one's husband (in the perfect world, he would be the perfect decision maker! Or the most educated, or the most worldly, or the most fair, etc. In a less perfect one, in fact an awful one imho, would be where brute force is the only factor in "civilization." At that point, muscle power wins. Men are typically stronger. Thus...)

Also in a perfect world, a man would agree to love his wife the way Christ loves the church. (And I *know* that there is no such thing as a perfect world, so no need to write that to me...) My experience has indicated to me that there are very few relationships that even approach a modicum of that measure. Our society supports and yeah, let's guys get away with, a very sub-standard performance according to that notion. I guess some folks feel a need to try, though. Seems to me that somewhere in that message is also something about slaves being subservient to their masters. Being good slaves. Does that message ever need an update?

At any rate, I don't advocate any particular position for women, really. I know my druthers, though. I just personally can't get to a perpective that allows me to understand why some women would want to chose deprivation, which is how I see *not* chosing from the best list of options available. We live in a society where women have a lot of choices...why not elect to use more available options than just from tradition from a long time ago? There's more to chose.

-- Anonymous, August 11, 2001

Say sheepish, just out of curiosity, what does this mean:

"Also in a perfect world, a man would agree to love his wife the way Christ loves the church. "

Sorry to put you on the spot, but I am interested in how Christ loves the church; what is 'the church'; and how do you know that He loves it?

Thank you for taking time to enlighten me on your views!

Hugs,

-- Anonymous, August 12, 2001

I also couldn't think of one nice thing to say to the gal on countryside. I worry about her children, and her ongoing pregnancies, wondering where it all will end. I hate seeing young women putting themselves into situations like this where they have no hopes of getting themselves and their children out of it. She will have no car, no job, no money and her children will have no education. I think alot of homeschooling and housebound children and wives has alot more to do with keeping everyone close and sheltered. I will be bawling my eyes out Wednesday when my second daughter drives off to college, but I applaud her! I also have seen first hand homeschooled kids who have gone off to college and though all the kids are wild the first year away, they are ill prepared just for the everyday street smart things, espeically what our daughters need to know. I see no benefit to God, to the family, to the community to have so many children, without a money tree in the back yard you can not support that large of family anymore. Certainly not educationally. It takes away the choices your children will have. This has little to do with the Amish, I feel the same way for half of the young girls out in these woods, going to the Baptist church, uneducated, pregnant, 2 other kids at home, no car, no job, and why does the husband always work out of town or nights? :) I think leaving the mom at home with the kids during the day, and being home at night when they are in bed is really good parenting! :) Vicki

-- Anonymous, August 12, 2001

Earthmama, I'll dig up the scripture passage, but my response was to the original CS poster who wrote: "The bible tells us to submit to our husbands. It also tells them to love us as Christ loves the church. :-) "

I am not good at proof-texting, so it may take me a while...anyone got it handy faster? Acts? Romans? (see what a *lousy* Christian I am!?)

-- Anonymous, August 12, 2001

Okay, it's in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians, Chapter 5, verses 22+.

This is from the Revised Standard Version (so you King James fans will have to bear with me.)

" Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body and is himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one. This is a great mystery, and I take it to mean Christ and the church; however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her huband."

It goes on to discuss children. Then, the part about the slaves, is in Chapter 6, v. 5: " Slaves, be obedient to those who are your earthly masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as to Christ; not in the way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to men, knowing that whatever good any one does, he will recieve the same again from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free." It also discusses masters to do the same to them (slaves.)

Okay, enough scripture today, but you requested it. See, it sounds nice in an ideal world...maybe except for the slaves, of course. What if their masters aren't nice!

-- Anonymous, August 12, 2001

Wow, I'm really confused now! Are you saying that in a perfect world a woman would be subject to their husbands,and that would be perfect as long as the husbands were perfect?? And in a perfect world, it would be perfect if perfect slave owners owned perfect slaves??

Please say it ain't so!

-- Anonymous, August 12, 2001

In keeping with traditon, here I go with thread drift. I hope we don't all come to regret that I posted this. I'm not trying to be mean or denigrating or any such. Remember, I am not a Christian. I am totally baffled why PAUL's opinions and interpretations are given such weight -- I don't mean only Sheepish having quoted from him. I keep seeing his words cited as the final authority. To me it seems obvious that Paul is NOT Christ, and his works are just HIS 'take' on things. How do you know he got it right? Please remember for those of us who aren't Christian, "the Bible says so" does not constitute proof of veracity.

Seems to me that since men come 'naturally stronger' (in general), it makes sense that women would come 'naturally smarter' in order to deal with the brute force. ;-) I think I've slipped into Polly's profiling mode . . .

-- Anonymous, August 12, 2001

Steve has gone to two Promise Keepers conventions. Promise Keepers is about the men, and men getting back to what being a husband and father mean. Being true to your wife, loving your kids and spending time with them, being honest at your work, being fair to your employees, a man of your word, taking care of your family first, before spending it all on yourselves, pay your bills, help when help is needed.

Here is some from the PK book about character:

Everyone has character, and it can be described: bad, good, weak, sturdy. A person of integrity, according to the Old Testament understanding, is a "what you see on the outside is what you get on the inside" individual. A man of authenticity and transparency. Someone who lives out in action what he believes in his head. A man of integrity is a "whole" person, the opposite of a two-faced hypocrite.

Character comes from the Greek word describing a marking and engraving instrument. My character is forged as a set of distinctive marks that, when taken together, draw a portrait of who I really am.

Behavior and charater are linked together, but they are not the same thing. Behavior is what I do, one action at a time. "I behaved badly in that situation." Character is the sum of all my behavior, both public and private, arranged as patterns across the entire spectrum of my life. Any behavior, duplicated and reduplicated, forms a part of my character.

Repeated patterns of behavior wear a series of grooves, which, when put all together, form a portrait of me as a person or show a picture of my character. Sometimes that portrait is compelling and attractive; sometimes it is ugly and repelling. Usually it is a combination of the two.

However, I have control over my character. I can improve it, change it, modify it, and compromise it. In a world where we seem to have little control, we call the shots when it comes to whether or not our character is diminished. If my character goes down, I am the only one who can be blamed. No other person apart from me can allow my character to be compromised.

A display of character starts with a man knowing in his mind what is right and wrong. It is deep-seated, personalized truth that is at the base of sound, consistent decision making, which is the steel frame for sturdy character.

The 10 character traits of PK's are: Maintain moral purity (clean heart, clean mind) Solicit honest feedback. Practice real forgiveness and receive real forgiveness. Make courageous decisions. Remain flexable. Practice good time management. Handle money correctly. Weather unfairness and injustice. Fail without failing. Successfully handle success.

Really it's all about men building integrity within themselves and having to answer to other men on their actions. They incourage small groups of men to meet on a regular basis and be accountable to each other on their actions, as men.

-- Anonymous, August 12, 2001

Joy, Paul was chosen to be Christ's messenger. It's a long story, but I'll work on it, it's a neat one. Paul wrote letters to the various churches based on Christ's teachings and by the Holy Spirit speaking to him, and in each letter (Book), told them their behavior was lacking or was good in this area or that area. Actually Ephesians is one of the most beautiful books in the Bible, one of my favorites. Paul said quit pretending to be good and kind, be good and kind. He and others traveled around allot so they knew what was going on in various places and churches. But Paul was in prison when he wrote the books. Anyway, I'll work more on it.

-- Anonymous, August 13, 2001

Or vice-versa... ;)

Paul said it. I'm saying how one could make a case for it. Since the "perfect world" doesn't exist, I think it's moot anyway. And hey, do you think I support the idea of slavery? Of course not...for any gender in any situation!

In a perfect world, women probably wouldn't even need men.... LOL

-- Anonymous, August 13, 2001

"I think alot of homeschooling and housebound children and wives has alot more to do with keeping everyone close and sheltered. I will be bawling my eyes out Wednesday when my second daughter drives off to college, but I applaud her! I also have seen first hand homeschooled kids who have gone off to college and though all the kids are wild the first year away, they are ill prepared just for the everyday street smart things, espeically what our daughters need to know."

Vicki,

I'm sure you have seen this before but how many times? Are you aware that there are Universities that offer scholarships just based on the fact that a student was homeschooled? Why? Because the Universities have noticed that the yount men and women that were homeschooled make excellent students and excellent leaders and the colleges WANT them. I say it takes "confident" students to be like this. I'm sure it would not go over very well here if I said I had seen, first hand, kids that were in families where Mom had a car and worked and the kids went to public school and couldn't make it in college because they were so dumb (we have all seen this haven't we? non-homeschooled students that can't make it in college? - but we don't say it's because their Mother works or has a car and can run around at will or because her kids went to public school).

Don't mean to be so grouchy here, just don't like it when broad generalizations are made (especially concerning homeschooling since we have always homeschooled :-)- graduated two and one still working with one).

-- Anonymous, August 13, 2001

IMO there's a big difference between thinking you are happy and knowing you are happy. I spent 12 years in a marriage thinking I was happy because society told me that I had it all and should be happy. I finally got smart. I may no longer have all the things that society says I should, but now I know that I'm happy.

I feel sorry for women who are in submitted relationships just because they think that's what's expected of them. But I also think that there are some women who derive true joy from a submitted Christian relationship, and I have no more right to tell them that they're unenlightened than they have the right to tell me that I'm a sinner because I'm unmarried.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001

Thank you Sherri, we sure agree on this one!! Hope you have a wonderful trip by the way.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001

(Well, let me keep stepping in it, then....)

It certainly is about choice. And it should not be about putting other people down, either.

I hope this thread has been interesting for folks. I am trying to learn a few things...like how this perspective works for some women.

Like many things, giving things up can lead to great insight. Look at what Buddha, Christ (! sheesh...His life!) and others gave up to find profound insight.

As a twenty-first century woman with many options, though, I don't seem to be able to work through this. Why is slavery (see Ephesians) not considered a viable option these days yet women's submission to men still is? If we take the Bible literally, how is it that this other subservience is justifiable? How come we can't give up stuff equally now, if indeed that's the path to enlightenment??? Are men THAT different from women???? Be truthful!

The question to me has been: How come God gave women so many talents and so many brains, etc., and these days so many choices, and then expects us to be subservient? This isn't the tribes of Israel 2000 years ago. Is everything static? What if some women indeed have more capabilities than their spouses? Or what if they aren't even in a relationship? Do they have to be subservient to their sons? etc.

I respect women who have worked through these issues and thoughts and come up with the "truth" for them. I have less respect for women who do not process the questions but just accept the position. Just my perspective. (But then, that's always been my problem. It's that Socratic thing, I guess. Maybe I should have only had an eighth-grade education.)

Anyway, do many people even think very much about these things? I wonder.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001

Sheepish, Sheepish. I can count on you to think about things! Thank you.

Just don't assume every woman/man is thinking about god. None of my decisions are based on any god or goddess or divine power or distant light, etc. Some of us don't 'take the bible literally' or any other way at all. For that matter 'holy writs' of any kind have no real place in my life except for their aesthetic value as prose/poetry.

My recent response, over there at CS, is relating to what motive Ms. Keckler (sp?) may have had in posting (conscious or not). I think she may have had doubts about her choice and was testing the water. Only she knows and only she needs to know. I think guided exploration of her idea (traditional counselling or otherwise) might help her make a truer decision for herself and her family, which, let's face it, are her true priorities.

-- Anonymous, August 15, 2001

As far as the giving up of things I read something a while back that I liked. It went something like "Give up whats not necessary and what remains is God."

I did the ascetic thing for a while but then I ran into issues like "Necessary for what?(Survival of course)" "Necessary" for self expression? Is self expression "necessary? etc., etc, yada, yada

We gotta remember when Paul was doing his thing the Greeks were big on the religious scene back in those days and had quite a bit of influence and they were a misogynistic bunch. And considering the times physical strength and size was a valued trait, thereby making women "less" than men.

I generally try to apply as a standard or benchmark the teachings of the mystical traditions and they're practically unanimous in the "MAKE THE MAN INTO A WOMAN AND THE WOMAN INTO A MAN AND YOU SHALL ENTER THE KINGDOM" Those words from JC himself, in the Gospel of Thomas.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Sheepish, the thread label was the first “clue” I had that this was not about legitimate discussion of the practice of Christian submission in relationship. I would think that we first should define exactly what “second-class” citizenship means here. Since I believe that most people on this board know that I am a woman who covers her head and is aspiring to a fully actuated submitted relationship, I could CHOSE to be highly offended by the whole tone of this thread and leave this cozy little group. But I did not. Instead I tried to understand each person and their position on the issue and came up with something that worked for me.

Second-class citizenship to me is a very relative term. I have a brother who has three children. Because of some choices HE made, my brother suffered in the job market of his choice because of a deficient education. He did eventually get the education and credentials he needed to fulfill his dreams and is highly successful in his field. He has three children. One son has only wanted to homestead like Aunt Diane since he was a small boy. He is a natural and would most likely use his amble intelligence and be very successful at it. His father has insisted on a four-year college education in what HE considers a marketable skill. My nephew is now in deep debt, in a job he hates, in a city he despises. Who is the second-class citizen in that scenario??

I could start a thread about “choosing” second-class citizenship and go on to speak harshly regarding why any woman would CHOSE to not have the joys of having children. (I don’t have that view by the way, just using it as an example). Then we could all chime in about our concerns for the environment and the population explosion and was all that true or not yada, yada, yada. Or, perhaps this would be an interesting discussion……………Why do so many MEN chose second class citizenship chasing after the almighty dollar??

So, my point would be??? If you want legitimate discussion and not a comparison of judgments, we need to start in a way that would promote discussion.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Gee Sheepish, that's an easy question for me to answer. Maybe not everyone, but for me, I want Steve to be MORE in charge than he is. I have to do all the bills and manage the money and I am the one to say no when we shouldn't get something. I wish he would do it all and then I wouldn't have to even think about it. I have so much to do allready around here, and it isn't a control thing at all, just something that needs to be done. But I am the stronger one in that area. I do believe we should work as partners, and if one is weak in an area, the other should be strong. God dosen't care who does the bills, but that we use the money wisely and be thankfull for what we have. We both should be in agreement over how we spend the money, even if I do it.

And the man should be a man, and strong about responsibilites, and his promises, or he shouldn't take them on. Some can and some can't. Some men always need their wives to tell them what to do and how to act and I don't agree with that at all. It makes me mad. I know husbands, Christians, who would never speak up to their wives and be the man of the house. Their wives run the show and it's not pretty to watch. They gossip and are hateful towards others right in front of their husbands, and the husbands do nothing. That makes him look weak and his "house" look bad.

Yes, IMO, it is the husbands responsibility to see to it that his wife and children don't act as mean, hateful people. It is his job to teach his kids to not steal, lie, cheat, etc. Now his wife can help teach the kids, there's nothing wrong with that, but it should not fall on just the wife. Both should be strong in that area. And in the long run, yes, it is his responsibility to see that the bills are paid. If he blames his wife for spending all the money, then he's not doing his part in running his household.

I see relationships that go both ways, one or the other domineering, and neither way works. I know husbands who treat their wives like dirt, and the wife takes it because she thinks she can't get anyone else. I know wifes who treat their husbands like dirt in front of other people, and it's embarrasing to watch. Both the husband and the wife should be thankfull for each other, and never forget that. Work on what needs to be fixed, but not in front of others, not even the kids. If the kids see dad or mom being ugly, then they think it's ok to treat their partner that way.

I respect men that are stong, and have convictions, and stick by them no matter what the other guys do.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Hm Well, OK. I am an Unliberated women and I love It! My husband brings in the main income, pays the bills and makes the final decisions. Do I feel like a second class citizen? No! I feel loved.

Sheepish did you faint?

Sheepish, I am the one who has to have periods, birth babys, tend to the babys, go through the change, I think that I deserve to have a man who loves me and will take care of me!

I don't believe that Amish women think that they are 2nd class citizens and neither do their husbands. They are playing the part that is natural for them. They are closer to the way that things used to be , and it was just natural for the man to fight off the dangers, to go out and farm the fields, to hunt, while the wife stayed close to hearth and home and children.

I think that Sheri is right in her anonlogy about the taxes. How things are, depend on how you look at them.

I want nothing to do, with the so called Man's world. When I am sitting on my front porch for my mid morning break, I sometimes see professional women rushing to their work. Do I feel envy for them, no way! I am here in my own envirement, doing things at my own pace. I feel very lucky to have a husband who sees the value of what I do here at home , in a world that greatly devalues the stay at home mom.

The bible chapter that you print from Ephesians, I think is right on! To me it doesn't stress the women being subject to your husband but the fact that the husband should love the wife. Does it make me childish that I prefer to be subject to my husband. Perhaps you will think so. But what kind of life are the children going to have if Mom and Dad are always battling for top possition. My husband has more testestorone, the aggresive hormone, then I do, He is more worldly and I think more knowlegeable. He knows that I respect him and trust his final desisions. But then, he loves me! In part he loves me because I give him this respect, because I trust him and I know that he wants what is best for all of us. I don't mind him being the final boss, it bugs me not. He wants me to be happy, by my not demanding that I have my say, than he seeks out my ideas. He knows that they will not be pressured onto him. To me it seems like a most beautiful balance.

I would be the first to advise anyone to leave an abusive relationship, as indeed I have in the past. but do I feel deprived, no way, I feel free, free to be the women that I am, let the man be the boss, they have the tetestorome for it!

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Oh my god, I think I have fallen into the Twilight Zone.......

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

When I was a teenager I would have nightmares that women would be drafted into the Army when I grew up. This really frightened me. I guess it was just the whole liberation thing and women going out and getting jobs and having careers and being aggresive and maybe even fighting wars.

I just wanted to be a, dare I say it! I wanted to be a housewife, a helpmate, a creative women, as had been my Mother, my Grandmother, and hers, I wanted to find a good husband, and have children and a little house with flowers and gardens and joy. I didn't want to make any big name for myself nor accomplish any great things, I just wanted to be a mother and to watch as the seasons pass. Sometimes I looked at all the great things that people had accomplished and I thought, what is it all for? What does it all accomplish?

If each day that I have lived , I have loved others, then I think that I will have accomplished great things. If I can make the path easier when others falter, if I can reflect their smiles, and feel their pain. What of earthly endeavors am I to gain? If I will not have time to be a friend?

Oops sorry! don't know where that came from! Back on the subject!

Now Sheepish! I was wondering about Tetestorone, the aggresive hormone. I know that women also have it ,to a certain degree. Could it possibly be that how we feel on this subject has a little to do with how much of this horomone that we have in our system. Perhaps women who don't mind submissing, like me, have less of this, and other women who are ready , to get out there and fight the fight, have more? What do you think! Hormones can affect our feelings!

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

EarthMama! That's not very nice, we are sharing our true feelings here! Love Tren

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

It's biological thats what it is! It has to be! Some of us are more intune to our primal instinsts and some of us are biologically modern.

Now just think if you had felt this way 100 years ago. OK you are a pioneer on new land, you are going to build your own log cabin, hunt for your own food, cut your own wood. Not me, I would look for a good strong man, then I would be his helpmate and cook the food that he hunted, tend to the house that he built us, and raise the children that we created.

Now you modern girls who are so over come with my primal attitude, have evolved ,but my brain still says Well go ahead and build your own cabin if you want to but I'm looking around for a good strong man.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

*sigh*

Diane, and others... You know how much I love everyone on this forum, and I apologize if my title and question were, I don't even know, offensive. In honesty, I seriously believe that women who chose to accept what their husbands (or other men, i.e.: sons, etc.) have to say, UNCONDITIONALLY, are second-class citizens. Perhaps I should have been more clear, but hey, the CS post affected me emotionally and I wrote it quickly! Toss in reading about declining to permit women to vote, and a few other things which I read on the CS thread (which may or not be true, but are likely true in some societies) and it fits my definition of second-class.

As far as Biblical information, it was requested, and I responded. FWIW, I respect the Bible as the Inspired Work of God, and try to live my life according to it AS BEST AS I CAN. It is difficult sometimes, however, and I can't help but consider that Paul does not say, "according to what Jesus taught us (or said)..." when he goes on to prescribe behavior for the church. It could just as well have been that he was using contemporary examples of how to be submissive as much as dictating future behavior for everyone. I don't know. Again, just my opinion.

I am married to a very strong man, both physically and emotionally. We respect each other very much and work together as partners, lovers, and friends very well...in fact people say that we have a strong marriage. I hope we can continue to keep it that way as we work hard at doing so. We try to make most economic decisions together. My husband does the tougher physical stuff around here b/c he's stronger. I do the house stuff, the garden stuff, and most of the animal stuff. I love staying home and doing things here. I hated having to go to work at a career and couldn't wait until we were financially able enough so that I did not have to. To a casual observer, we look like a very traditional couple. I like to spin, sew, bake bread, put up food, look half-way decent, have long hair, etc. He likes to putter, build things, fix things, work on cars and tractors, etc., plus he looks pretty buff, has a mustache, etc.

We're just like most of the couples on here. But maybe not. Neither he nor I think that we are enfranchised with some blessing or responsibility (or curse) just b/c we are of one sex or the other. Yes, we acknowledge differences and sometimes celebrate them! But neither he nor I would ever take it upon ourselves to decide the course of the other's life without discussion and consent.

I salute those of you who have found your own ways to make it all work. And I thank you all for your discussion in response to my question and/or comment.

Peace to you all.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Sheepish, don't feel bad, It is good that we talk about this, we are all learning! Love Tren

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Earthmama, I would be very interested in hearing you elaborate on why you made the remark about the twilight zone.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

sheepish dear, if I had been truly offended do you really think i would be here still??? hugs, and I really did understand what you were trying to say, my point was more to do with stimulation of discussion and how relative most things are. Here's one for you and this would probably best be on a different thread and maybe on a Christian board but we would most likely be crucified for it there. What is Hebrews 7 trying to tell us??? Jesus as another Priest like Melchizedek?? Who the heck was Melchizedek anyway and if Jesus was in that "order" how did we ever come up with Him being the "only" way?? If that would get you to questioning, and I can not imagine why it would not get one to question, why was that book left in?? See how weird "I" think.

We all will and do "submit" to someone, whether we want to admit it or not. We also are very much in this life a "slave" to something, someone or some system. Since I consider myself first and formost a spiritual person, the "spirit" in which I do something is the most important issue to me. That is what I am working on in the current moments of my life.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Thanks, Diane. And Tren, I'm still standing (or sitting actually...)

I also think it is important (to some, maybe) to make the distinction between being a second-class *citizen* (which to me has to do with giving up political power, whether at home or not) and being a second- class *person*!

My sister-in-law is very subservient to her husband. She votes (well at least she votes....) according to what her husband (and church) tell her. She is very obedient (although she does have some rather interesting ways of accomplishing things she wants to get done....ahem!) She is still a wonderful, loving person (she's a missionary.) Even though she has decided to relinquish her independent thoughts and political power (and contributions, I might add) she is still a first-class person in her own right. I don't agree with her on a lot of things, but she is a nice human being. I think it's too easy for some of us to muddle these boundaries, myself included.

And as Bob Dylan said, "you gotta serve someone." But I can't do the automatic serve-the-men thing at all. Not fair, even if there is a whole bunch of history behind it. And that's my story....

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Well I think I've recovered enough now to speak, cuz I was quite literally floored after reading Cindy and Tren and Diane's posts; truly mouth-agape, speechless and dizzy with shock. I do believe you all gave me the vapors!

Diane, as many times as we have spoken, no , I had no idea you were "aspiring to a submitted relationship". I have no idea what that means, but it sounds kinda kinky to me! :)

And isnt't it a tad presumptuous to make this statement for the wholewideworld? "We all will and do "submit" to someone, whether we want to admit it or not"? Explain please?

Perhaps it would be helpful to have your definition of submission, cuz it doesnt leave a good taste in my own personal mouth.....so to speak.........

Guess I was pretty blown away by some of the stuff Cindy said; interesting to hear how people think and feel. Its really a thunk on the head for me to hear women say stuff about 'a man should be a man' and 'the head of the house' and all that rot. (sorry,no offense intended, but to me its rot.) I cannot even in my weakest most vulnerable moment imagine wanting someone else to make my decisions for me,or even suggest what I could or could not do, but that's me.

Tren, I wasnt quite as shocked at what you said as I was with the others, somehow I kinda had you pictured that way. Well, ok I WAS a little shocked. But as usual, you are giving me another perspective to think about,bringing up new issues cuz your brain's always a buzzin, and you almost always manage to react without defensiveness,which of course fosters communication rather than bad feelings.

Course you realize your theory about testosterone is something I cannot really take seriously; this is one of those things that homophobes throw at my kinda people all the time! If submissive to men women have less testosterone than women who are not submissive to men, then we dykes must have a whole bucketfull of it, cuz I aint submittin to no one, much less a man! Funny tho, I am all woman, and not "manly" in the least. Plus I am very domestic, as well as being ambitious and outdoorsy and mechanical etc. I figure I'm just well- rounded! (little too well-rounded lately :))

So, different strokes I guess........as someone who spent her twenties in the trenches of the womens movement, has made certain that my girls are confident they are in charge of their own lives and capable of doing whatever they damn well please,, and remembers what it was like 'before', this is all kinda like a sad movie to me. But we all need to find happiness our own way, and that's the point I guess.

By the way, Tren, this is so beautiful, and I totally agree. I would just add that I dont think it should just apply to women, and that one can also find fullfillment in the marketplace or anywhere else, and still find the truth in its touching words:

"If each day that I have lived , I have loved others, then I think that I will have accomplished great things. If I can make the path easier when others falter, if I can reflect their smiles, and feel their pain. What of earthly endeavors am I to gain? If I will not have time to be a friend? "

Thanks again,

Blessings,

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

I didn't mean to sound disdainful of the bible/religion Sheepish. Just stating the fact, to remind people, that not all of us are on the same page re: religion. Bible quotes convince me of nothing.

What is great about being in a long-term relationship with another woman is that we get to choose our roles, they weren't really pre- ordained by society. If we sat around waiting for a man we'd be waiting a long time since we aren't looking for them! We do what we are best at or want to learn or we do it together.

I really don't understand what a "fully actuated submissive relationship" IS. It sounds like an oxymoron to me. I think it means a healthy, happy submissive role in a relationship to you, Diane- is that right?

And I agree with Earthmama...all that testosterone talk often justifies discrimination in the world I live in. Makes someone less than a 'real woman'.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Dictionary definition of submit: to yield or surrender oneself to the will or authority of another or others.

By virtue of the fact that we are living in this country we have submitted to the authority of another or others. No, I do not in any way think that was a presumptious statement. Just a statement of clear fact.

My husband and I BOTH aspire to a submitted relationship, each doing the best we can to serve the other. So what is so kinky about that?? I did not think anyone was getting defensive, just stating beliefs and feelings. (of course now I am feeling a bit defensive since you had to label it so............but then that would really be my problem would it not???)

I certainly can not explain or always even understand anyone else's choices but my own, but I most certainly resent it when people judge others for their choices. I would be equally annoyed if someone were to judge you for your choices. IMHO THAT is what liberation is really all about and what I went to the trenches for.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Oh, I have never really bought into the stuff about the hormones. Some of the most gentle people I have ever met have been men and some of the most agressive have been women. If a relationship is submitted it does tend to avoid the power struggles, unless of course you want to fight over who is going to serve who. ;>)

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

OK so the hormone theory is out, what about biological evolution, think that it could be that ?

I just don't think that I have been this way because I have been brain washed, if so how's come I didnt' get brainwashed in so many other ways. So You think its in our heads, or do you think there may be some thing else? Why do we feel so differently about this?

Perhaps it is all in the translation. Like Sheepish talks about how she naturally takes on some typical women things and her husband takes on some typically man things. And she can understand that. maybe it is in how we translate submission? In my book ,submission is not a bad thing, if I am submissing to the right person. Now, if I didn't have a choice of who that was, then I would object as strongly as you do Sheepish, and Earth Mama.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Emama, I never said I wanted someone to "make my decisions for me or tell me what or what not I can do". Steve has never done that. It isn't about that at all. The more responsibility he takes on, the less I have to do it all. And it just isn't fair for one "partner" to have the burden of all the decisions, it must be done together, so one dosen't get blamed all the time.

I agree with allot of what Tren said too. Hey, I've had my career. I worked horse ranches and passed up all the guys in pay, I've been there and done that, and did it on my own. I love the idea of a strong partner, one that I can depend on to be there, to come home, and to love me. I am so content to just stay right where I am and let Steve take care of as much as he can. Steve, as any person should, needs to feel inside that he is an important part of this relationship.

I am a very strong willed person when it comes to certain things, and I'm not afraid of confronting people, and I do, more than anyone I know. Steve didn't put that in me, it was allready there. No one, not even Steve, could make me go against my beliefs.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Got to thinking about this thread again while I was milking and choring.

"What is great about being in a long-term relationship with another woman is that we get to choose our roles, they weren't really pre- ordained by society". Not picking on you here Annie, but what makes you assume that a woman in a long-term relationship to a man has not picked her role??? I have done the single mom with three kids and a career role; bought and sold houses myself etc. etc. etc. all by choice. When Gary and I got married the first few years he stayed home with the kids and did a wonderful job while I established myself in my nursing career and we got our relationship going. OUR choice. We both worked for quite a while to have our homestead paid off and now it is OUR choice that I be the one at home keeping the home fires burning.

Earthmama discribed Cindy's "view" of a relationship as "rot", no insult intended but rot none-the-less. Sheepish discribed the submitted Amish woman as a second-class citizen and breeder-reactor. Don't you think perhaps that women could be a bit kinder in their judgments of each other??? Is is really necessary??? Can we not just love each other for who we are and who we could be and let each search that out with the support of loving sisters??? We are all biased in our own perceptions of relationship, to men, to other women and to the world in general. When I was involved with the women's movement the thing that I thought was so wonderful was that feeling of sisterhood with other women of very diverse backgrounds. (off soapbox and back to..........what the heck was I doing anyway???)

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Whether we like it or not, this American society that I (and maybe you) grew up in colored our view of men and women and their roles. Often that is as simple as "girls play with dolls, boys go hunting". Not ALWAYS, just often enough to define gender roles. When two of any same gender get together the roles don't fit the training (from our culture-media-family-community-religion), and must be renegotiated. Some men and women discuss this too. Great. I never said they didn't. I just commented on what two same-gendered (women particularly) face.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Hey Diane, and everyone else, just for the record, I'm ANNE, Annie is someone else on this board and I don't want to confuse you.

Anyone else notice the number of posts listed at the CS site for this topic keeps adjusting to a lower number? There were over 100, then in the nineties and now 80. HMMM.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

Anne, I THINK that has something to do with the time length set for threads. After it reaches whatever that time length is, it no longer counts replies before that as 'new'. Just one of the weird quirks of this system.

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

The number of posts will adjust like that because some of the answers have gone out of this week. Like "80 this week", but there still are the 20 there from last week. On a very old post, it will say "1 new answer this week".

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

(seems like thread-drift, but judge for yourself...)

Hey, feel free to be disdainful of the bible/religion if you want! Folks, including me, have been doing so for generations. I certainly don't take offense, and even appreciate the challenges to it. I do it all the time myself!

One thing about being involved spiritually (and for me, being involved with the Bible) is that there's never a dull moment. I'm always being challenged!

And real life shows up sometimes too. Yesterday, I was taking recycling to the bins at a local grocery store. I was in the parking lot when a somewhat beater Camaro rolled by, being pushed by a young woman. There was a baby in the back in a car seat, and a young man trying to jump-start the car. I dropped what I was doing and ran to push the car with them. We got the car going fast enough in the level parking lot so that they could start the car. The young woman, obviously stressed and tired, thanked me. I started walking back to my truck. Their car stalled. I ran back (now they were quite a ways away from me) and I eventually caught up with them. Just as I went to push on the car, the guy inside popped the clutch (which temporarily "stops" the car....actually it lurches.) In other words, at a full run and with all the strength I had, I pushed on a stopped car. OW OW OW OW OUCH! I realized that I had done a major disservice to my arms and hands, and they started to hurt big-time. At least the couple got the car going on that jolt and drove off.

I went back to my truck with arms and hands starting to ache and throb, and mindful of starting a new transcription job next week (at home) I prayed: "Dear God, please help my arms and hands to heal. Please help what seems to be an injury developing turn out to not be so." I prayed this all the way home...

My praying helped and today my arms and hands are fine. Thank God. What I did get, though is this: Even when I try my hardest to help somebody, maybe it's better to NOT PUSH SO HARD.

Obla-di, obla-da...

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

ANNE, sorry :>) I understand about the name thing. Happens to me also. Wasn't paying attention to what I was doing. Guess I should not have assumed that you were assuming either....sorry for that too. I do tend to get carried away sometimes............well........maybe more than sometimes????????

-- Anonymous, August 16, 2001

I cannot continue to post on this board if every time I turn around I have to worry about someone choosing to be offended. I had enough of that stuff over at CS.

Cindy didnt indicate she was offended by what I said; perhaps I didnt say everything acurately when trying to give my feelings and experiences, but I am mortal, after all, and I don't believe I am in the habit of saying hurtful things to people. Incidentally, for crying out loud, the comment on being kinky was suppposed to be amusing!! good night nurse........ha........theres another one,you're a nurse right? ok,so its not hysterical,I'm no George Carlin, but I am a nice person.

I thought "loving each other for who we are "and "being kind to one another" was exactly what we have been doing, but apparently I was mistaken. I enjoyed the exchange of differences and intelligent and passionate discussion of said differences along with the faith that we can still be friends when all is said and done. Perhaps it was a pipe dream and this is just another learning experience .

I apologize to anyone I have offended; I thought I was just sharing my heart, and what's in my heart has nothing to do with anyone else, only me.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Emama, I didn't cry or anything like that, but I did wonder why you would say outloud that what I believe in is rot. You're always the one saying, to each his own, whatever makes you happy, if that's what you believe then that's ok for you, everyone is ok just the way they are. Kinda confused me a bit. I'm not going to get upset, because I know just because someone says something, dosen't make it so.

We talk here about what our own beliefs are. We feel comfortable doing that. I don't think anyone is asking for opinions on their personal beliefs, and there is allot of assuming going on about values that are miss-understood or not even known about in the first place. Too much broad speculation.

Even in the example of the Amish women, I'm quite positive there are many good husbands who don't get drunk with power. Good grief, in our Baptist churches around here, it's the women getting drunk with power and splitting up churches. Ironic, isn't it? The meanest women I know here are wives of the Deacons. Or daughters. I have even seen them smack their husbands in business meetings when they tried to speak. Are they submitted, ie, respectful to their husbands? Of course not, and it shows. Give respect and you will recieve respect. For me to see a truly submitted church is a warmth to my heart. That's love. (ie, no one holds themselves up as better than anyone else).

If you lined up 100 Christian women, truth of the matter is, maybe 2 or 3 would be like enough to be kindred spirits. I'll bet we can say the same for any belief.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Earthmama..............it was not my intention to upset you or judge you for speaking your heart. It is my personal opinion that a lot of what was said on this thread was unkind and judgmental, not just your remarks. What person do you know who would appreciate being told that her whole spirituality was based on fear?? That she didn't want to take responsibility for her own life??

Let's face the facts. Most of us on this forum are pretty "out there" as far as main stream USA. We have been judged and found weird or lacking by other people groups. So, we all get together and pass judgment on them?? What's wrong with that picture??

Perhaps if anyone is going to take off their ruby slippers and slip back into Kansas it should be me. Seems my tendency to stick up for the weary and heavy laden gets me in trouble no matter where I go. hugs and love...........and I mean that to all.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

I haven't read this thread since it first started. Boy, did I miss a bunch! I would sure hate to see anyone be offended. I read through it and I could see where someone could be if they chose to be. But I think Cindy has the right idea. Just because someone says something doesn't make it so.

As for myself, it may seem from the outside that I live a traditional role in the fact that I'm married and am currently staying at home and raising 4 children. But it's what I chose for this time in my life. Noone chose it for me. I've had a successful business before this choice. I plan to find another niche for myself when this phase is over. I'm investigating the possibilities even now. Although I won't be free enough from child rearing and homeschooling to pursue it for another 10 yrs. UNLESS I come up with something the kids can do with me. Now I know alot of women do both but it is my belief (nothing to do with religion) that to stay with my children is what's best for them and myself. It's too hard to do both and I don't feel I can give proper attention to either one if my time is divided like that. I lived that way for a while and didn't like it. My point is that my husband did not make these choices for me. We made them together (I didn't make these kids by myself!). If I said I was ready to go back to work tomorrow he'd probably be disappointed about the kids going to school but he realizes it's my choice and ultimately my life. He loves me and wants me to be happy.

I don't think I could ever live in a totally submitted relationship and it about drives me crazy that I have to submit to so much poppycock this government hands out (ridiculous taxes, too much spending, etc.) But sometimes I guess you have to weigh out your choices. Even though I don't agree with alot, I believe this government's better than most and I'll stay here and submit. I guess this came to mind because it seems to me that we do have to submit sometimes to things that aren't in our realm of control. I try not to put myself in a position where I would have to but sometimes it can't be avoided.

But as much as I can I will be the author of my own destiny!

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

I hope that everybody is OK. I too can see how some could be offended. EarthMama I know that you meant that the idea was rot. But to Cindy it probably felt like you were saying that her ideas were rot. I know that I would have been hurt if you had used those words when you talked back to me. At the beginning of the thread there were alot of responses finding negetive reasons why any women would want to live that way. Maybe we can learn to just accept that people look at things differently without thinking that there is something wrong with people who think differently then us. For example on this thread there are lots who assume that women who submit are childish. Well, its a wonder that those who felt this way even responded after being called this. Knowing EarthMama , I know that hurt was not her intention. And Earth Mamaa you had better not go to your cave, you have pulled me back out when I tried to retreat to mine, and I will do the same to you! We blunder around sometimes, we are all human. This thread has really opened my eyes a bit to how others feel. We are all growing and learning together. I love you all! Tren

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

You know something. Diane is absolutely right on this one. I have not heard any of the Christians on BTS making fun of the other spiritual beliefs at all. We are not judging you or poking fun at you. Nor are we witnessing. We have loved you as friends, not based on your beliefs. Now what is being said about Christians so non- chalantely makes me wonder quite a bit.

I explained Promise Keepers after it was bashed, but no one really wants to hear the real truth about Promise Keepers, just the made-up part about pushing around the wife. No one wants to hear that submitting isn't what you think it is. You don't know at all what it is and you don't want to know.

So really, no matter how I care or love you, I will always be an idiot in allot of your eyes because I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. Ask yourself who has truly accepted who. Who is being the judgemental one.

Here's one of the things that was said, yes, about me, because you all know I too believe in the Bible.

I don't think there is anything you can say to discourage someone who has gone over the edge in literal bible believing. This is the only way they can feel comfortable in the world, because of their powerful fears. I think they feel so powerless as human beings that as aggravating as it can be to live in a prison of black and white rules, it is scarier still to be a fully actualized adult.

Fear? No way. It's Might. It's Peace as wide and as deep as the ocean, higher than the highest clouds, it's the love of God that passeth all understanding, it's being rooted and grounded in love in all that we say and do.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

I was the first to post an answer here, and yes, it was negative. I stand by it, because I based those reasons on my personal experiences with people (not converting to Amish, but setting themselves up to be taken care of and free of responsibility), close relatives in fact. Don't worry, I'm not feeling hurt or accused or anything, just trying to clarify. And yes, I am judgemental about these people in my experience, because I and other close relatives are the ones they simultaneously try to get to do things for them and to control the way we think and act.

And I am totally in disagreement that there needs to be a 'head of the family/house', never mind deciding which based on gender. If couples/families CHOOSE to do that, it is an option. However, there are other choices, such as full partners and all sorts of degrees of that. I would never choose to be in a relationship where one of the persons had the power to make the final decisions without input from the other. It would have to be consensus or compromise. I don't think that precludes trusting your partner to decide things without discussing each and every issue every time -- but it WOULD require knowing your partner very well and respecting what you know.

Frankly, Diane, unless I am just not "getting it", it sounds like what you're trying to accomplish, " each doing the best we can to serve the other" -- am I confused?

As for a "man should be a man" -- what the heck is that? If he's changing diapers or washing the dishes, does this make one less a man? If I and my hypothetical man both prefer to mow grass rather than wash the dishes, do I have to wash the dishes because I am the woman? How about dispensing with "being a man" or "being a woman" and just being a good person? Why is a woman being nasty to her husband in public any more or less reprehensible than the husband being nasty to her? And why is the one taking it and saying nothing more or less of a wimp because of gender? (If you're judging that person to be a wimp for taking the abuse, that is.)

Now, I am NOT saying that an Amish couple could not have such a relationship, where they're true partners and decide things together in their relationship, except that all the rules will impinge on their relationship. IMO, the second-class citizenship or personhood comes from the relationship of women to the entire Amish culture. Please, if someone can honestly deny that all the rules are not about control and restriction, explain how it IS NOT?

If a person is submitted to their partner and to their church and its leaders, but the partner or the church or the leaders commit or condone abuse to that person, is that person still required to be submitted? If yes, then that person is a second-class (or less) within the culture that requires it. Does it make a difference if we substitute woman or man for person, or husband or wife for partner?

I feel as if I am not able to completely express what I'm getting at and I'm running out of time, so I'll have to close now. I'll probably have time later to read any replies, but not to respond until maybe Monday or so.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Oh, arrgh, Cindy was posting at the same time as I was!

Cindy, please explain to me what this means: ". . . the Bible is the inspired word of God." The 'inspired word' part. Does that mean you believe in the complete inerrancy of everything in the Bible, or do you mean something else? I'm just trying to 'get on the same page' so to speak. And even if I do end up disagreeing with that belief, I don't think you're an idiot. I question things and argue about them because I want to try to understand how others see things. This medium doesn't make that easy!

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

You need to go back and read again what I wrote Joy. I explained it very well. And I made it clear it was IMO.

And the man should be a man, and strong about responsibilites, and his promises, or he shouldn't take them on.

In other words, if you make promises to someone, you should keep them. And I did say that domineering EITHER way is no good and it is not in accordance with my Bible teaching. I am not Amish, I do not know what they believe in when it comes to that, but pushing around your wife OR husband OR partner is not acting according to the word of God. Period. I did not tell all of you that you need a man, I was explaining the Promise Keepers, that's ALL. No where in all that I said did I say that for you to be happy and fullfilled you must be this way. No one can accept that I believe in this, you have to challenge it and make me look stupid. Why?

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Cindy, I'm sorry that you feel challenged and such. I guess asking questions could be considered a challenge, but I really DO want to know -- why is gender important in defining a role? And that's not only directed at you, anyone feel free to explain, if you think it is important. In fact, the whole thing was not directed at you, but for general discussion.

I truly did not understand that "strong about responsibilites, and his promises" are your explanation for what it means for a man to be a man. I'm still confused, actually. For me, it doesn't explain -- is keeping promises made only required of men? And maybe that's because for me, there is no "being a man" versus "being a woman", just being a responsible adult -- think that's it? Still, "being a man" or "being a woman" certainly are concepts within our culture -- we've all heard those phrases. But what do they mean to anyone who says them?

I found your explanation of the Promise Keepers interesting. Having no man in my life, it hasn't been on my radar screen exactly (though the man I did have broke all the promises HE made), so I can't say I'd heard about the organization more than in passing. This thread has gotten so long, I'm having trouble keeping track of all of it. However, Cindy, I didn't "get" that you were saying we all need men. I only mentioned my "hypothetical" man because I didn't want to imply that there IS a man in my life and confuse you all.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Recently I heard a Methodist preacher at the keynote of a community conference. {See, I really CAN listen to religious talk. ;)} He had many good points to make, but one that has stuck in my mind and I have mulled over is this:

"You do not have to respect others beliefs and values. You have to respect others." At first many of us stiffened at hearing this, we were at a community building conference, not one to separate us! However, he kindly explained that we didn't have to respect other's beliefs as we had our own that we valued. But we had to respect the person who holds those beliefs. So I see this discussion as a way many of us are struggling to respect each other while holding onto the values we have personally. Overall, I think we do an admirable job.

I know the preacher was much better at communicating this idea than I. I just thought it might give folks something to think about. I prefer spirited discussion. It is part of what stretches my understanding of the world. And when I mention where I'm at in regards to religious thought/writings, etc. it is to remind you who I am and that I am listening from that perspective.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Ah Man! Communicating is so Complicated! Love Tren

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Annie, what lovely thoughts.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Thanks, Anne, that WAS helpful to me. Expressing what I feel, much better than I could have done. Now I really must go pack or something!

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Have a safe trip Joy! Where are you going? I really must be peeling more apples, too. But this conversation keeps drawing me back. It's like we are on the edge of something here. Hang in there, everybody. Love TRen

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Oh dear Cindy, as Eleanor Roosevelt said, 'no one can make you feel inferior without your permission'.

Why is it threatening to some of you Christians to have us ask questions? THis makes no sense to me. Why all the defensiveness? How is that possibly conducive to constructive discussion?

When I brought up the issue of 'literal bible believers', it never occured to me this applied to anyone on this forum. We were addressing the thread on the CS forum about the woman who wanted to join the Amish. I didnt post there at all because I knew my mere ideas on the subject would fall on deaf disinterested and probably angry ears anyway. If I had known we had people here who believed in the literal bible, I would have never responded to this thread. I still am in total disbelief about this. I don;t really know what to do.

I thought Joy did a very good job of explaining how I feel too, and was openly asking for more input so we can try to comprehend this phenomena. Cindy, your quote, "the man should be a man, and strong about responsibilites, and his promises, or he shouldn't take them on. " and reasoned explanation about being responsible etc still doesnt make any sense to me as far as gender goes. Isnt that what all good people should do? Whatever does it have to do with being a man?

The reason I said that about literal bible believers is because this has been my experience with them my whole life;as you know I was raised in this enviroment and in my experience there is no discussion with a literal bible believer. It was always an exercise in futulity because the person would invariably get angry because they didnt have any answers to my questions.........they were just supposed to believe without question. Not that it matters but I cannot imagine being that way cuz I want to know the whys of everything,and if it doesnt make sense or feel right to me then I cant go there.

Incidentally, I'm glad Steve's experience with the PK was positive, but there are many others who have entirely different stories to tell,and it soundslike you do not want to hear them?

I think your reference to "No one wants to hear that submitting isn't what you think it is. You don't know at all what it is and you don't want to know. " is particularly unfair. I specifically asked you guys to TELL US WHAT IT MEANT. Perhaps some of us are thick, but no I still do not understand it,and I don't feel there was any sincere effort to try to help us.

It would be a damn shame if this divided us since spiritual issues is one reason we all came here. I think I'll start a new thread on one of the Four Agreements: DON'T TAKE ANYTHING PERSONALLY! I know its the one I must work on constantly,and I see I have lots of company.

Love,

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

O.K...........I am honestly trying to follow this. We don't need to respect each other's beliefs but respect each other? So when someone says

"I don't think there is anything you can say to discourage someone who has gone over the edge in literal bible believing. This is the only way they can feel comfortable in the world, because of their powerful fears. I think they feel so powerless as human beings that as aggravating as it can be to live in a prison of black and white rules, it is scarier still to be a fully actualized adult"

that would be respecting that person?? Just not respecting what she believes??

You know folks...........this has been a real challenge to me, being on this forum. Something that I have not taken lightly at all. I again think I must really be missing something here cause it still looks like what we said we weren't, judgmental like the right- wingers, we really are and just won't look at it.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

well, another simultaneous post!!! Posted the same time you did EM, thank you for the clarification, I think............will have to redigest the whole thing for a while. Sure is confusing to me.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

How about explaining submission just as if you were in a young couples sunday school class. I've heard some really great explanations that way. As I understand submission in the Christian sense, it doesn't require either party to be a door mat. It did really make sense to me when I heard it explained. It was about mutual respect. I thought it meant that both parties were to submit to each other. But it does seem to mean (at least to the people who have explained it to me) that if discussion doesn't come to compromise then the man has the final word. That's where I can't go along with it. But that doesn't mean I think that anyone is an idiot that does agree with it. It's just not MY choice. I truly respect each and every person's choices on this board. Christianity didn't work for me but that doesn't mean it doesn't work for others. There are certain pagan beliefs that don't work for me either. But that doesn't make those people dumb either. I like it here and I like all of you. I 've really learned from our differences.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Yes, Diane, that's exactly what I mean! I can treat a person with respect and not think much of their beliefs. The quote of my words that keeps coming back like bad gas was, as I said, meant for ears that were not within the definition of LITERAL bible-believers. I never would have in a jillion years have guessed you were in that category, and I sure as heck never would have guessed it of Cindy. To have said it to the woman on CS who posted the thread (like Sojourner and several others did) would be disrespectful and hurtful, and I wouldnt do it! I am having trouble here too, like you; and wonder if part of our problem is definitions.

Now the word submission to me is a powerfully powerless word! It makes me personally shudder because it brings emotions of helplessness and sacrfice of oneself to someone else. I mean I understand sacrifice in the sense of what one does for ones children, for instance. Its a necessary part of nurturing ones kids, and because its temporary and full of love and fun and learning, it doesnt feel like submission. But I cannot get it beyond a concept like that. That doesnt mean I think any less of you as a human being because you see submission as a good thing, it only makes us worlds apart in that arena. It also doesnt mean that we cant be friends, does it?

And I totally understand and agree with the concept of compromise and serving each other etc., as long as we dont lose ourselves in the process, but thats a whole different thing than submission, and I still dont get the part that seems so sexist to me. But if that's just one of those 'cuz the bible says so' things, then theres not much more to say , right?

HELP~!

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Hmm. Can we boil this down to a couple of key questions, or so? I am humbly asking:

For those of you who feel that submission is important: What benefit is derived from being submissive? I mean, do you feel better about yourself; do you feel better about your partner; do you feel better about just giving something up; do you feel better because you are doing what you understand to be God's will; do you feel better because you somehow feel like you don't deserve to not be submissive? (I'm probing here b/c the answer to this question is absolutely germane to my understanding of this issue! Really, what motivates you to do this? And if you answer love, I have to ask you to please be more specific....I really, really, really want to know why submitting is important to you. Maybe I'm missing something.)

Why is submitting to a *man* important? Could you get the same benefit from submitting to say, a religious order, and becoming a nun? Or could you get the same benefit from fasting, or giving up something like some folks do for Lent? Is it the freedom from having to chose that is important or is it more like an ascetic (giving something up to experience closeness to God) benefit?

I realize that some of these questions seem to be Biblically mandated and for some of those of faith, it means obeying. So is this part of it, the obeying part? Is it kind of like the Taliban and Islam? Like those women? Please don't get defensive...it's the closest contemporary thing I can think of.

For those without Christian convictions, does the biological explanation seem to make you comfortable? That women have hormones, or a physical need to be submissive?

I really am trying to get it. Thanks for helping me understand.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Tren, I'm going out of town to my niece's wedding on Saturday, and I hope from there to go to the Renaissance Festival that's nearby on Sunday. Yeah, I keep getting drawn back here too. Partially because it's interesting and partially because I'm afraid we're going to blow apart over this thread.

EM expressed a lot of my views in her last two paragraphs. I've been trying really hard to understand what a "submitted relationship" means. I'm pretty sure part of our problems is the emotions we attach to words, as EM expressed her reaction to "submission".

Personally, I don't mind be questioned on my spiritual beliefs or practices. It actually helps me. Even if only helping me to learn to express myself. We can have a thread like that if you want. Of course, I won't be able to participate for a few days so maybe you want to wait awhile. EM, I think you should start a thread on those agreements. I'm interested in the other 3 too.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Thanks for caring you all..........I really need to gather my thoughts and try to explain but the tears are pouring out right now and I just can not. Between this thread and the mayonaise jar thread on cs I am really beginning to doubt the whole forum thing. Having a really, really hard time here and I appreciate the love I can see that we really do have. I will get back with you when I can regroup. hugs and love

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Dear me, but we've all gotten into quite a lather over this. Time to step back and regroup. I've just gotten up and am heading back into work here soon, so I don't have time to pull all my thoughts together enough not to offend anyone. I've printed this thread out to read and re-read and mark key points, so that I can be coherent when I do answer.

For now, I want to say this: Cindy, of course I don't think you're an idiot. I think you're a doll and a dear and a ton of fun; and so is Steve. I'll explain more re: PK and my feelings about it later - there IS a basis for my feelings. Diane, I don't know what to say.

I really don't want to see this forum fall apart; but I don't want anyone to feel bashed or like they have to keep their beliefs to themselves in order to participate either. I sure hope Jim hasn't been peeking in to see how we're doing, 'cause this would probably be the end of it for him. Perhaps we all need to just agree to disagree and leave it at that?

Besides, if we quit the forum, then Sojo will be able to say "Nyah, Nyah - I told you so!" Can't have that, now can we!?

Hugs to you all,

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Hello.....are there any men out there following this post?? If so, any comments? I've just been checking in every once in awhile, mostly because I'm not as articulate as you guys and I don't want to "open mouth insert foot". Soooo all I have to say is that why can't men and women just have RESPECT for each other's "rolls" (whether by choice or chance) in life. If a woman chooses to stay home and do the "housewife" thing, I don't think she's being subservient. But men (some men!) should stop thinking of certain jobs as being women's work and visa versa for women. And, a question for you guys, when you were little boys wasn't it the ultimate insult for you to be teased and called a "girl"? The drill sargeants still do that in boot camp!! Atitudes HAVE to change. Marriage or a partnership is a 50/50 thing. Well, guess I wouldn't last long in an Amish society!!!

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

And, one more thing, PLEASE don't fight, guys. I don't want this forum to end :-(!!!!!!

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

O.K.........this thread is taking forever for me to download with my dial-up so I am going to start a new thread. hope that works and we can keep on with the discussion.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

No one has posted anything here since Diane said she was starting the new thread.

However, I am still posting a request here:
PLEASE DO NOT POST ANYTHING FURTHER TO THIS THREAD.

Please see this thread for an explanation.

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001