I'm shopping for a used M6 which will be used primarily for available light photography. I am sure I will occasionally shoot flash photos indoors. I use a Metz 34CS with my Bessa R which does not have TTL flash. My question is: how useful is TTL flash on the M6 compared to using a good automatic flash such as the Metz with a classic M6? Is TTL flash a really useful upgrade or is it really not needed. Thanks!

-- Steve Rosenblum (stevierose@yahoo.com), August 15, 2001

Answers

What the TTL flash provides is flexibility : you have a broader range of f/stops available to be used in a given situation. There's limits, of course, based on the maximum power output of a given flash unit as well as the shortest flash time achievable.

I use my M6TTL with the Leica SF20 flash unit when I'm shooting flash. The SF20 is very convenient to dial in a range of flash fill from -3 to +3 EV when in TTL mode. When used in auto mode with the external sensor, the range is -3 to 0 EV. That works, but you're locked into a more limited range of f/stops.

Of course, my use of flash is fairly infrequent at best so it's not the real reason I bought an M6TTL body. I like the improved meter readout and the larger shutter speed dial.

Godfrey

-- Godfrey (ramarren@bayarea.net), August 15, 2001.

TTL flash has distinct advantages in the following situations: 1. Telephoto or macro (not particularly relelvant to the M user unless a Visoflex is used). 2. With filters in place (not often the case when using flash except as daylight fill). 3. Daylight fill (M's low sync speed is major hindrance, and ironically the M6TTL prevents shooting flash at speeds above 1/50, whereas you can use 1/125 on a pre-TTL M6 for daylight fill if you hold the camera vertically with the subject's face in the top half of the frame.) 4. When subject is substantially smaller in frame than non-TTL auto sensor's coverage angle, predominantly happens with 50mm and longer lenses. With 35mm and shorter lenses then the M6TTL's coverage angle is wider than most auto-flash sensors. 5. Off-camera flash (unless, eg Vivitar 283, there is an accessory which permits keeping the auto sensor mounted in the hot shoe when the flash is held away on a cord). I have chosen not to move to the M6TTL as I can see no advantage for me at all.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), August 15, 2001.

3. Daylight fill (M's low sync speed is major hindrance, and ironically the M6TTL prevents shooting flash at speeds above 1/50, whereas you can use 1/125 on a pre-TTL M6 for daylight fill if you hold the camera vertically with the subject's face in the top half of the frame.)

Do people really find value in setting the shutter speed so that flash sync only covers half the frame? For me, no way. The SF20's capabilities with the M6TTL provide very nice flash fill, presuming you have not chosen a film which is too fast for ambient conditions.

-- Godfrey (ramarren@bayarea.net), August 15, 2001.

Jay hit it on the head. IMO if you are looking to use fill flash a lot with an M, I would suggest you seriously consider a high-end SLR like a Nikon F5 or F100 with the SB28. With that you can have fill- flash up to 1/4000 sec., not just limited to the 1/50th of the M or the "tricked" 1/125 that Jay mentioned.

As for the main advantage of the TTL over the classic, I echo what Godfrey said: better led meter readout, and a bigger shutter-speed dial that rotates in the correlation to the metering led's (opposite of the classic M6).

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), August 15, 2001.

I have recently started shooting a lot of ISO 100 chrome with my M6 TTL. I use a Mettz 34CS and I am delighted with its performance. The exposures are remarkably accurate. As you know, there is f2, f4, and f8 available with this unit and ISO 100. that's plenty range for me. I really like having GN34. I could order an SF-20 right now if I wanted to, but I can't see any compelling reason to do so. Less power (GN20) and questionable advantages reagrding fill flash. With fill, and using it hand held, I would have 1/30 and 1/50 second shutter (maybe 1/15). How often will my desired fill ratios and film speed and available light let me do what I want. Not very often, for sure. The SF-20 would give a broader range of f-stop choice , but is that really so useful? I dunno. When the shutter is maxed at 1/50, what's the significance of f2 versus f2.8. Well a little better depth of field control, but flahs light fall off is more problematic than DOF when shooting flash. The filter argument is fairly credible, but adding the filter factor to the f-stop calculation is no big deal to an M-shooter. Plus, the 34CS works great with non-TTL M's.

Now, in the subject of the M6 TTL, even without considering the TTL circuit, the camera has the distinct advantage of having the shutter dial close to the front edge, and it rotates in a manner consistent with the meter arrows in the viewfinder.

-- Dan Brown (brpatent@swbell.net), August 15, 2001.

Flash, let alone TTL, is a complete betrayal of the Leica philosophy which is all about unobtrusive photography and being part of the crowd. Available light is all you need, and with practice you can do just as well with an M3 and its superior build quality plus handheld lightmeter as with an M6. Who needs this electronic stuff anyway? If you want to use TTL flash go for N***n or C***n.

(Proof that if Leica users twitch less, they kneejerk more.)

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), August 16, 2001.

I will just note that no less a "Leica Photographer" than David Alan Harvey walks around with his single leica and a small flash for fill.

Absolutist philosophies are not all that useful.

-- Pete Su (psu_13@yahoo.com), August 16, 2001.

For Dan Brown: The Metz 34CS2 has a guide number of 28 and NOT 34. Sadly last year Metz decided to "bump" up the guide numbers of their entire range by quote the guide number at the higest tele setting instead of the at the normal 50mm setting. So the 50MZ5 became the 70MZ5 and the 40's became the 54's. I have the 34CS2 as well and it is a great flash unit, but it's guide number is 28, which is still one stop more than the SF20. To get the 34 you need to attach the tele adapter.

-- Mike Foster (mike567@acgecorp.com), August 16, 2001.

This Harvey myth is approaching the dimensions (and wrongness) of the HCB myth! He often uses two bodies and three lenses. Not that I'm against that, but it's a bit tiresome to hear this repeated over and over.

Raghu Rai, on the other hand, uses a 35/70 zoom almost exclusively. And Steve McCurry uses a zillion lenses and bodies. So what! All that counts is the ability to see.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), August 16, 2001.

I prefer the M6 so called 'classic as I find the body fits my small hands better. I actually traded in a three week old TTL for a demo M6 because of this. I agree, however that the the TTL dial is easier to turn. The extra meter dot in the TTL is probably a plus for some folk although I found it mildly distracting. I personaly have absolutely no need for a flash on a Leica M camera.

You can pick up a near mint older M6 on ebay for about $1300 or from some dealers for about $1400 and that could be a consideration. A nice M3,M2 or M4 would be a good option also if you don't mind using a hand held meter. The build quality on the older M's as Rob pointed out is superior.

-- Sam Smith (Ruy_Lopez@hotmail.com), August 16, 2001.

Thanks to all who answered. After watching the used market for awhile it appears to me that I can probably get a TTL M6 for the same price as a "classic" M6, so I will probably go with the TTL if for no other reason than the shutter speed dial.

-- Steve Rosenblum (stevierose@yahoo.com), August 16, 2001.

All I meant was that the idea that it is somehow philosophically or religously wrong to use a flash on a Leica is sort of silly. I didn't mean to perpetuate myths.

-- Pete Su (psu_13@yahoo.com), August 16, 2001.

Last week I purchased a black classic M6 for 1200.00 on ebay. Its condition is 'like new'. It will be difficult to find an M6ttl for this price. The money I saved will be contributed to my 'glass' fund. Never gave flash a thought.

-- Doug Ford (dford@san.rr.com), August 17, 2001.

Dang! The marketing guru's at Metz got me on that one. Guide number is 28, not 34.

The SF-20 will also have and advantage over the Metz due to the TTL metering because the meter area changes with changed focal lengths. For me, this is not an issue because I only use 35mm and 50mm lenses.

As far as the philosphy of not using flash on a Leica, I somewhat agree. In addition to my creative efforts, though, I also use the Leica for my snapshot camera. There are times when there is no substitute for a flash and I have no shame in using it with a Leica.

-- Dan Brown (brpatent@swbell.net), August 17, 2001.

Also Harvey uses flash on his Leica because he often takes shots...in the evening or at night, when there is no light. Personally I don't like flash much myself - it always is noticeable - but sometimes alas and alack it is just essential.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), August 17, 2001.

This mentioned above, but the reoriented shutter speed dial on the TTL can be distracting if you use the camera along with earlier M models. Not a big deal, but enough for me to prefer the M6 classic. If this will be your only M body, you can disregard this.

-- Tim Nelson (timothy.nelson@yale.edu), August 17, 2001.

If you use ANY camera with a traditional shutter speed dial (FM2, R6.2, S2, or any number of older cameras) along with the M6, the "backwards" dial on the M6 TTL will absolutely drive you crazy. To me, this more than offsets any advantage that comes from it being larger.

If you think you might ever use a Visoflex, you'll be out of luck with the M6TTL. Its unlikely I'll ever use Viso gear, but there's a world of difference between "won't" and "can't".

I travel quite a bit. Its nice to be able to pack an SLR and flash along with the M6, and know that I can always share the same flashgun on the M6 classic if the occassion arises. If I had an M6 TTL, there's NO WAY I would spring for another dedicated flashgun just to use with the Leica. That isn't what a Leica is about. To me, therefore, the M6 TTL diminishes your flash capability, because your existing flash equipment can't be used on it.

With the M6's selective metering, I can use manual flash or thyristor-controlled flash on my M6 with as good or better results than TTL. The ONLY advantage of TTL flash belongs to Leica. They get to sell or license "dedicated" flash and make more money.

Of course, if you gotta have three-point metering instead of two-point metering, the M6 TTL is the way to go.

-- Joe Buechler (jbuechler@toad.net), August 18, 2001.

I am a bit confused by Joe's answer. Why can't you use a non-dedicated flash on an M6 TTL? Wouldn't you just give up TTL flash? I was thinking of getting the M6 TTL for the advantages of the shutter dial but still using my metz 34 CS flash on it which is an automatic non-TTL flash. Is there a reason why I can't do this?

-- Steve Rosenblum (stevierose@yahoo.com), August 18, 2001.

You can use a non-dedicated flash on an M6 TTL. You do have to have a battery in the M6 TTL for the flash circuit to trigger the flash. I use the Metz 34 CS2 regularly, it works fine.

-- Dan Brown (brpatent@swbell.net), August 18, 2001.

Right. Non-dedicated flashes are okay, flashes dedicated to the "wrong" camera aren't.

-- Joe Buechler (jbuechler@toad.net), August 18, 2001.

This may be a redundant question here, but has anyone tested either the Nikon or the Contax TTL cords with the SF20? I heard from one source that it works fine and from another source that it works but is inconsistent and non-linear.

I upgraded from an M3 to the M6 TTL for versatility reasons. The results with the SF20 are seemless. Some situations call for supplimentary lighting and the M6 TTL/SF20 combo works beautifully. The purist concept that a Leica shouldn't be used with flash is total BS.

-- Steve Wiley (wiley@accesshub.net), August 19, 2001.

Having owned and used both, I prefer the classic M6's handing. But I prefer the .85 viewfinder, and cannot pay up for an M6HM, or, even more impractically an M6J. So I mostly use my M6TTL .85.

But flash? A lot? Get a Nikon. Or a Canon. They have some very interesting lenses too, by the way...

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), August 19, 2001.

The shutter speed dial on the R6.2 and the M6TTL turn in the same direction; turn clockwise, speeds increase.

-- Robert Schneider (rolopix@yahoo.com), August 20, 2001.