spiritual submission (2nd class citizenship??)

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Beyond the Sidewalks : One Thread

Well, my first thought is that I sure wish I could SHOW you my heart. I saw the Black Hat ceremony with the Karmapa several different times and I believe I SAW his surrendered heart.

I am afraid this is going to come across to fellow Christians as a bastardized version of the Apostles Creed, but this is what I believe. I believe there is one true God who has or will reveal to those who are open to it what Spirit is all about. I am deliberately trying to avoid gender here because in the Spirit world gender is irrelevant IMHO. I believe that the Bible is ONE very important spiritual writing that can, if studied with an open and surrendered heart,reveal much of the truth of life and what it means to be human and what God would have us know and be. I also believe it is one of the most misinterpreted books in the world and by the beating of people in the head with it, it has been reduced to WORDS that the heart can mostly not hear. Submission is a spirit word to me for I am absolutely certain in my heart that one of the Absolute truths (as opposed to relative truths) that in submission of my will to God(the Source, creator or whatever you want to call this ABSOLUTE FORCE OF LOVE) comes the Absolute Power of Love which will unite us all in SPIRIT. A submitted relationship gives me a PRACTICE in the physical world that helps to open my heart to the spiritual world.

If you study other religions beyond Christianity you will find that there are submission practices there.......like in the Vajrayana practice of Buddhism you begin with 100,000 prostrations. We are so attached to the physical world and physical ideas that we most generally are incapable of seeing past our bodies and the physical world.

I am quite certain that comparing the submission role of a woman or man in the marriage relationship to a Buddhist submission practice would get me branded as a heretic. I also believe that even though some women, such as Amish, might be practicing this practice without knowing why, that through their obedience to God's direction they will achieve some spiritual growth and peace. I have seen it with my own eyes.

Do I believe the Bible is a living Word.........absolutely. Every day in prayer and meditation I approach it with as open a heart as I can and I believe God "talks" to me and teaches me through it. Jesus said that those who have ears should hear. I am not certain that everyone has the same ears, but I do believe that there is a message from the Creator for every ear.

I have said over and over that I believe everyone interested in a spiritual journey needs to pick a path and a teacher and follow it. I chose Christ.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

Answers

Thanks Diane, I think I understand you a little better.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001

I had to go to a wedding this evening and I went with a heavy heart.

Early on in the thread, you all knew Promise Keepers was a MENS organization. I was explaining what it was all about. Of course I use the word "man". Why would I substitute "person" for "man" when I am explaining about PK? It is all for men and about men. Why should I have to change my words when I am trying to explain something. No, I can't put "woman" in there, women don't go. That is called Heritage Keepers, for the women. Why are you asking me to change my words to suit your beliefs? Then it would not be MY beliefs anymore. I don't ask you to put the word "God" in every time you speak of spirits or earth or whatever, just to suit me and make me feel comfortable. I don't need to.

I find it hard to believe anyone on here didn't know I believe in the Bible. I have quoted it many times when asked about it. I have not hid it. And Joy, you asked about the inspired word of God. Well, Sheepish mentioned it very early in the thread, but no one questioned her did they? Well for the record, here it is. And don't forget you asked for me to explain it.

Hebrews 1:1...............Long ago God spoke in many different ways to our fathers through the prophets (in visions, dreams and even face to face), telling them little by little about His plans. But now in these days He has spoken to us through His Son to whom He has given everything, and through whom He made the world and everything there is.

2 Peter 1:21...............For no prophecy recorded in Scripture was ever though up by the prophet himself. It was the Holy Spirit within these godly men who gave them true messages from God.

2 Timothy 3:16..........The whole Bible (literally, every Scripture) was given to us by inspiration from God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives, it straightens us out and helps us do what is right. It is God's way of making us well prepared at every point, fully equipped to do good to everyone.

And let me say even before you blast me, yes, these verses are from the Bible, so if you don't believe in the Bible, I am perfectly aware that all this is a moot point to you. Either you believe it or you don't. I didn't write the Bible, but I do believe it and live it. And in case you ask, yes, the Holy Spirit is real. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit lives within my heart, and yes, the Holy Spirit does speak to even little old me. Very clearly I might add.

-- Anonymous, August 17, 2001


To answer the questions on why submission? I do think Sheepish allready quoted the verse

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001

no one can make you feel inferior without your permission.

EM, I tell you I feel strenghtened with Might, and you perceive it as feeling inferior?? Where in the world did that come from. You're the one who had the "vapors", not me.

Why is it threatening to some of you Christians to have us ask questions? THis makes no sense to me.

I don't feel threatened, by what, a monitor? I noticed you used the words "you Christians". I am a real person here. My beliefs are real whether you agree with them or not. I did not ask you to agree with me. There was never any need to tear them down, I don't tear yours down. I don't feel I NEED to tear down someone else's beliefs to lift mine own up. You don't know WHY I believe the Bible, even though you think you do.

I am having to repeat myself here over and over and I made it clear the first time. Do you want me to say it again, OK, I am not anyone's doormat. I choose to walk in obedience to the word of God. I cannot pick and choose the verses I want and only follow the easy ones. I want, yes, want, my husband to be the head of this household. Does he abuse it? No. If he did, then Steve would not be walking in obedience and I would not have to comply. Two walking together in obedience to the will of God is a powerful marriage. Actually the two become three, as God promises, there will I be also. And I believe the Holy Spirit is the most powerful force on earth.

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001


I'm trying very hard to not become terminally confused and have my brain fall out of my head. It's not easy!

Early on in the thread, you all knew Promise Keepers was a MENS organization. I was explaining what it was all about. Of course I use the word "man". Why would I substitute "person" for "man" when I am explaining about PK? It is all for men and about men. Why should I have to change my words when I am trying to explain something. No, I can't put "woman" in there, women don't go. That is called Heritage Keepers, for the women. Why are you asking me to change my words to suit your beliefs? Then it would not be MY beliefs anymore. I don't ask you to put the word "God" in every time you speak of spirits or earth or whatever, just to suit me and make me feel comfortable. I don't need to.

Cindy, I wasn't addressing your post where you were explaining PK, I was addressing the post you made after that. (It's beginning to look like numbers or letters on the various posts would be a good idea). Anyway, I wasn't requesting that you change your language, I was trying to get a better understanding of what you meant. Same thing with asking about the "inspired word of God". We seem to get into trouble making assumptions about what someone means, yet now I'm in trouble for trying to ask what is meant instead of assuming. This is very discouraging.

I'm not going to blast you about using quotes from the Bible to explain what you meant by "inspired word of God". I wasn't asking you to prove that it is, only what you meant by that phrase. BTW, I meant to ask Sheepish what SHE meant by it when she posted it, but then I forgot. Sorry. Perhaps she'll address that -- or not.

I find it very disheartening that asking questions is construed as criticism, but in any event, I'm sorry if any of my questions were perceived as attacks. I didn't intend them that way.

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001



joy says "I find it very disheartening that asking questions is construed as criticism, but in any event, I'm sorry if any of my questions were perceived as attacks. I didn't intend them that way."

Just wanted you to know joy that I never thought you asking questions was criticism. I have always felt that your questions were genuine and that you were trying to understand other peoples belief systems. Actually I would really like to know and understand more about what you believe.

I want to be friends with everyone here, and I think acceptance is the key. I have never had the "vapors" over what anyone else believes. EM, love you dearly but that was hard to swallow. I know that you are having a difficult time understanding why anyone could believe what we do after you so obviously have been completely and totally battered with it.

I kind of think of it like maybe four people all with a disorder of sorts......in the spiritual sense we could call it a "short in the powerline". Now if eating carrots would heal that disorder and one believed it would heal it and ate them with joy, one ate them simply because the doctor told them so, one ate them because they were completely in touch with their body and knew exactly what it needed, and one had them jammed down their throat and in the process injured their stomach so bad that it couldn't digest them; would they not all benefit or not benefit in different degrees??? (and please, that was not intended as any REAL commentary on peoples connections to God, just trying to come up with something understandable) Wishing you all peace, love and joy in your chosen paths.

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001


Joy, the whole thread, from the very first post, was about WIVES submitting to their HUSBANDS. Was it not? Just because SOME Amish men abuse the verse Ephesians 5:22, does not mean ALL Christian men do. And yes, I believe in the whole Bible, I believe it is Gods own words to us. All of it.

In my second post, I joyfully gave Sheepish MY answer to her question about why WE believe the man should be the head of the house. If you don't understand what being a man is in MY opinion, go back and read the first paragraph of my first post. I don't think anyone is really reading what I write, it's very easy to understand what I am saying here.

I think the words "submit" and "man" got everyones knickers in a wad because it's not what YOU believe. And if you ask me, some of you were the ones getting a tad defensive.

By the way. Did any of you ever obey your dad? If he said to do something, did you respect him? Or did you only obey your mom? Sorry gals, but fathers have a role in the house too. And allot of wives and moms choose to let the father do his part also. I very much respected my dad as head of our house. He took care of us and saw to it that we had food to eat. He worked his whole life for us, not for himself. He put himself last in his wants. He didn't have to you know. He could have skipped out. But he took my mom as his wife, made her promises to love and care for her and their children they would have. And he stood by those promises to the end.

I just don't understand why you gals think this is so threatening to YOUR beliefs. And what is there not to understand now?

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001


Here, to save you the trouble, I am re-posting my very first paragraph.

Steve has gone to two Promise Keepers conventions. Promise Keepers is about the men, and men getting back to what being a husband and father mean. Being true to your wife, loving your kids and spending time with them, being honest at your work, being fair to your employees, a man of your word, taking care of your family first, before spending it all on yourselves, pay your bills, help when help is needed.

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001


Oh Cindy, I can feel that you are really still hurting and I wish I could apply a healing balm for you. I was really hurting last night also but was able to detach and see that the barbs were not personal and not intended to hit the heart of our being. For me the hurt was more greatly intensified the more people tryed to say it was not deliberate. Like my comments were for the idiots over there, I just didn't know there were idiots here I needed to be careful of because of course I never hurt anyone deliberately. So, sweet sister, know that you are loved very much.

I liken it to discovering that someone who I thought I really knew was deriving their power from carrots like me really got it from a tree. Without really wanting to offend, I expressed my surprise by saying if you get your power from a tree why ever that tree and not this tree over here. And for crying out loud if you are going to eat carrots, make sure they are organic. You know...........all kind of scattering and disempowering things. Now.......OWN your power and return to love and let the chips fall where they might. (((((((((((((0))))))))))))))))))) feel the hug???

And Tren............want you to know I really love the way you discribed your relationship. Very sweet and comforting. hugs to you also.............and the book I love says we are to approach our Creator as a little child, knowing that he loves us and will give us what we need. So, why not allow the little child in us to feel protected and nourished if we are safe in a relationship?? My honey and I really try to do that for each other in our own way.

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001


Hi everyone. Thanks Diane for starting another thread.

To *me*, the "inspired word of God" means that the Bible was written via inspiration (Holy Spirit, if you will) but to *me*, it is in contrast to the concept of "word of God" which usually infers that the Bible is to be taken literally. That's probably another whole topic! Anyway, our church mission statement includes that we take the Bible seriously, but not literally. However, just because something might not be "true" doesn't mean it doesn't have truth in it. (One way to approach some of the inconsistencies and/or contradictions: Lots of different contributors over a long period of time.) There's a lot of truth in the Bible and I try to live according to the Gospel.

I think we might want to consider that we seem to have a discussion about spiritual beliefs and practices running concurrent with a discussion about political practices (gender particularly.) Politics to me is anything that involves the balance of power, whether at home as the decision-maker or non-decision maker, the child or the parent, etc.

On the one hand, we seem to be discussing the need to be spiritually submissive, while on the other we seem to be discussing the topic of men's and women's positions within a relationship. This seems natural to me as the personal is always political (does this sound like old '60s rhetoric or what!?) But it might be helpful to keep in mind that we have a couple of directions where we appear to be going.

I appreciate Diane's discussion of her spiritual journey. I think it's wonderful that someone has taken so much study and meditation into her life. Wow. I'm impressed and I'm sure she makes a difference to everyone around her.

Cindy, it sounds like you guys have a wonderful relationship and I'm really happy for you. The Promise Keepers has probably made a huge qualitative difference for a number of people, men and women included. The big message seems to be accountability and God knows we all have been discussing personal responsibility on here forever. I can't imagine anyone not agreeing with that part of their platform.

Personally, as I have mentioned, I can't see giving up my personal political power as a woman. It's a justice issue. I am a human being who deserves to be considered equally with any other human being. I deserve the opportunity to succeed or fail just as any other human being does. My biological differences are less than my biological similarities to the other gender. In contemporary times, that equates to being able to accomplish most things as males, provided the right tools or technology is available. What we have that's different, well....I LIKE that stuff!!! I just hate to have to be sequestered into not achieving goals that I might want, just because I'm a woman! I think we would all tend to agree with that too.

So politically, on a macro level, this means continuing to stay abreast of local, national, and international politics, voting, etc. It also means on the micro level, working to keep my relationship with my husband equally respectful. I suspect that whatever you all have worked out in your relationships has worked for you as we are pretty sharp cookies at this forum. I also think we are getting caught in semantics and other communication pitfalls, as humans tend to do...esp. in this medium!!!

I know it's hard to not take the discussion personally. I would be defensive if I perceived that someone started talking about how women deserve to be kept in second place, for example.

I appreciate the discussion. I am being reminded that the world is full of people that don't necessarily see things the exact way that I do! DOH!! But once again, I think we have more in common than in different.

Have a good Saturday.

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001



Joy, the whole thread, from the very first post, was about WIVES submitting to their HUSBANDS. Was it not?

Okay, right here is one place where we're in trouble -- not even talking about the same thing. NO, IMO, the WHOLE THREAD is not about wives submitting to their husbands. It is also (and IMO, more importantly) about cultures that require females to submit to males, only because (as far as I can tell) males are perceived to be INHERENTLY superior to females. ALL males to ALL females. If a particular female is not subject to a particular male's authority, it is only because some OTHER male has a greater authority over that particular female than that particular male. And all females must have a male authority to which they are accountable.

But I WAS trying to ascertain what a "submitted marriage" or "submitted relationship" (whichever is the correct term) IS. It seems like I'm not going to get the answers to that, so never mind. I've given up on trying to find out what is meant by those terms.

By the way. Did any of you ever obey your dad? If he said to do something, did you respect him? Or did you only obey your mom? Sorry gals, but fathers have a role in the house too. And allot of wives and moms choose to let the father do his part also.

Of course I obeyed my dad if he told me to do something. Where did someone say that Dads/Men get NO respect? I'm not saying that at all. I want to know about why being male makes one entitled to GREATER respect! In the eyes of society, my father was "head of the household" -- in practice, my parents were equal partners in decision making and the "final decisions". They were married until my dad died. They argued sometimes, but always managed somehow to come to an agreement or compromise. They were both committed to their marriage and making it endure without either of them having power over the other -- it was a JOINT venture. Of course my father had an active part in the family -- so did my mother. So perhaps coming from that sort of family, it explains why I question these things. But I am still left wondering why MUST it be that one or the other is "in power"? Why is a partnership not an option? I am trying to figure out what has convinced you of these things. I am NOT trying to CHANGE the way you think about them -- I'm trying to get you to explain how you came to these positions. If you think it's rude to ask, then please say so.

My beliefs are in no way threatened by what you believe. I like to get other perspectives on issues, even if I don't agree with them after I've gotten them.

Diane, I thank you for your kind words. I am kinda hurting myself, wondering why asking questions is considered to be attacking something. I am floored that Cindy seems to think that I WOULD mean them as an attack. And Cindy, if your replies to me are NOT intended to be "return thrusts", then I apologize for taking them that way.



-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001


Thank you Diane, for your lovely post. I feel the same way about much you said. In fact I also feel that the Bible is a living word, but to my way of thinking that is the antithesis of believing in it as a literal document. It is too rich and overwhelming in many regards for me to believe that God intends us to look at it from a black and white perspective.

I am truly sorry if my reference to the vapors was somehow offensive to you. Seems every time I try to be funny someone gets offended. No, I still do not understand why it was offensive, but I'm sorry anyway. I was just trying to express my shock.

You do seem to understand how much difficulty I am having grasping how anyone in this day and age, much less intelligent, interesting women, can believe in a concept like someone having to be the head of the household. I now get the point that some of you seem to feel this has to be the man is biblical I guess, but to me healthy relationships have an equality of power, so its been really tough for me to grab hold of.

You see I see sexism as something ugly and hideous, just as I do slavery. I see the damage it does all around me, and it makes me sad and angry. This is the context I am coming from. Please dont anyone chose to personalize what I feel in my own heart. I see sexism as a powerful force that continues to immobilize women, but perhaps even more importantly to our culture as a whole, I see it as hurting men. To me, determining proper behaviour by ones gender is one of the causes of violent crime. I think because we condition boys to mask their emotions, to always 'be a man', to take on the major responsibility of income-earning, to always ask for and pay for the date, to just be the one in control, places a terribly unfair burden on them. Many cannot cope because this does not come naturally to them, but they are made to feel defective if they dont play their role. These feelings of inferiority eventually manifest as anger in ways that are sometimes harmful to society at large.

I realize that people who have good marriages and are truly happy no matter how they look to the outside world are doing what is right for them. I certainly have no quarrel with them, and would not be so arrogant as to judge their relationship.

Diane, you quote Marriane Williamson frequently. This is probably the biggest factor in my shock at your acknowledgement of being a literal Bible believer. I have read all her books many times, and have done some studying of the Course In Miracles from which she derives most of her work. The Course In Miracles is basically ABOUT how the Bible is a metaphor, and a way to make it make sense in modern times. At least thats the way I've always looked at it. Its a very difficult work, and Marriane has a gift for making its lessons clear to the average person,and I've always felt she makes the Bible come alive to people who would ordinarily just poopoo it . So I hope you can better understand how very surprised I was.

Cindy, I can feel you are very angry at me. The last thing I ever wanted to do was hurt anyone's feelings here. Please accept my humblest apologies, and know that I'm very fond of you, and pray that you can bring yourself to forgive me. I had no idea, and I'm sorry.

It is difficult for me to understand some things though. If you believe in the whole Bible,literally, then I guess you must believe that gay men should be put to death, that adulterers should be put to death, children who curse thier parents are to be killed, that it is forbidden to sow two different seeds in the same field, for a woman to wear a red dress,for people to eat pork, to inbreed cattle, to harvest fruit trees before the fifth year, for a woman to have intercourse during her period, etc etc (Leviticus). I have Christian friends who say these rules which were set up in order to help quickly and effciently establish a new community, became null and void when Christ came. Is this how you feel too?

About your question about obeying ones father. Certainly I obeyed mine, but surely no more or less so than I did my mother. I don't understand why there has to be a comparison at all? They were equally treated with respect in my Christian household,although my respect for them was actually based more on fear than genuine respect, because I don't feel they treated my sister and I with the respect that I have tried to treat my own kids.

Anyway, that's my blab for now, and I'm hoping it doesnt get me in any more hot water.

Blessings,

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001


EM, wow.........words again. I guess literal would be very relative to me. See, I don't have a clue how to best discribe the Bible. Huge amounts of the translations are very relative to culture etc. etc. etc. so we could have a dialog like I saw on one of the forums on this board that would go on endlessly. Politics of gender submission wasn't even in my thought process.......used to be......don't even know when it passed from my consideration. Maybe when I absolutely KNEW that I was just as good as, but no better than, any person on this earth?? That was something that you all were seeing with your eyes and my eyes weren't focused there. Kind of like one of those dot things were you can see the lady or a butterfly or something like that.

When I focus my eyes to look at the political nature of "headship" I guess I understand where that would really hang you up. It sure did me for a long time. See how ignorant I feel?? Not that I am without perception but that I am ignorant of your perceptions.

To me personally, old covenant is just that OLD. Nothing to do with today except in a historical sense, and useful in the perspective of prophecy of the coming of Christ and that God would keep His Word. Now there is another one to debate till hell freezes over.

To Joy, my friend, I hope you can return to love also and not feel hurt by Cindy's "perception". This has been a hard one and my personal take on it is that when the energies get really scattered, for whatever reason, sparks fly and people get burned. In the best of space we are touching on really CORE issues here and I think it could be very full of growth and promote a deeper understanding and intimacy if we can heal our "burns" without forming scar tissue.

I used to think I needed to know the WHY of everything. Kind of like back to the carrot thing. Who the hell was going to tell me #1 that I was broken, #2 that I needed carrots to be healed #3 why carrots when leafy greens have the same thing in them etc. etc. And THEN I thought I had to know absolutely everything about the carrots before I could accept them. Little did I know that eating a few carrots would open my eyes to know more about carrots.

Now do I think YOU need to eat carrots?? I have no idea at all. Maybe you aren't broken or maybe leafy greens would be better in your case etc. etc. THAT'S how I think our journeys need to be. And as for all those doctors out there who want to tell me what BRAND of carrots to eat and how they should be grown and who should grow them, I say GET LOST. I have one physician that knows my inner most being because He made it and IF I trust HIM He will show me the way to Him (insert gender or force or whatever works for you here)

The ultimate joke I see in the Bible that when I really SAW it gave me a huge belly laugh was when Jesus appeared to Mary Magdaline FIRST. Sure sucker punched all those guys that were fighting over who would be first. She just loved Him.

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001


Oh my goodness.......I was just at the sink doing dishes and canning some apple juice and I really felt one of "THOSE" moments. Was thinking about this thread and the Bible and examining when I first started believing ANY of it. There was a verse in I Thessalonians that goes like this: Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, mind your own business and work with your hands; just as we have shown you.

The day that came ALIVE for me was like eating my first carrots. My huge thought that just came to me at the sink was about the literalness and the black and white nature of so much of the Bible.

I can think of NO PLACE in the Bible that says the whole thing applies to ALL people. It talks about it being "God inspired" and worthy etc. etc. but no place do I find that every person has to believe that every word applies completely to them or was even written for them.

O.k. so sorry for all the Bible talk, it just really seemed so pertinent to this particular conversation that I felt compelled to share it. Hugs again and back to the apples. Tren........we must be in parallel right now. Got apples coming out my ears!!!!

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001


I am not angry or horribly hurt. I am frustrated. It seems no matter how clear I say things, they still are not being understood. That is why I use the caps, to try to emphasize those words to help you to understand what I am saying. I am not mad at you Joy. Everytime I explain, you change what you were asking about in the first place. Now it is about cultures? I very clearly was talking about wives and husbands from a Christian point of view. A submitted marriage is when the husband and wife both honor each other, hold them in high regard, cherish each other, submit to the relationship. Don't need to look elsewhere for personal companionship.

Most of the misunderstandings are comming from using such a broad brush to paint people who follow the word of God. I did not give up any voting rights, for pete's sake, I can vote for whomever I choose. I don't have to ask Steve. But I would certainly hope that the spiritual couple would discuss the issues and vote according to their hearts and what God is leading them both to do. I do God's bidding. And my husband should do God's bidding also.

There is an Old Covenent and a New Covenent, as Diane was talking about. If you don't understand the whole order of the Bible, you will be confused. When Jesus came, the Old Covenent was gone. He brought to us a New Covenent. And scripture is very clear explaining this. There should be no confusion about the old laws.

The Old Testament is comprised of history. And many, many of the old stories in the Bible are there to show to us how God works with His people, how He accomplishes what He wants to accomplish. How he uses His people to do His will. There are thousands of pages without rules on them. I have done some very intense Bible studies, and the more I do, the more exciting it gets for me.

EM, please don't guess I believe anything that horrid. My goodness. You are painting with a broad brush again. You apoligized, said you didn't want to hurt my feelings, then said you guess I believed in putting gay people to death. You know better than that. You have heard me say many times that I consider myself better than no one else. Yes, I believe the whole Bible, but lets not forget that Jesus did come, (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John), and He brought His teachings with Him. (The New Testament) That is part of the whole Bible also. He taught forgiveness and love.

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001



Well I have apologized but it seems its not good enough once again; so be it.

You say ". You are painting with a broad brush again. You apoligized, said you didn't want to hurt my feelings, then said you guess I believed in putting gay people to death. You know better than that. "

No,Cindy I do not know better than that. There is no way I could possibly know what you think or feel. Obviously I hadn't a clue to begin with, so how would I know now? There are THOUSANDS of people just in this country who absolutely use those passages to bash gay people both verbally and physically every day of the week, and thousands more who keep their feelings to themselves but feel the same way anyway. I merely asked you how YOU felt, so that I could know. This is an issue very dear to my heart, and I do notlet it go by without comment,and make no apology for it.

Au revoir

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001


O.K........now I am visualizing this circle of VERY POWERFUL women with this universal storm of energy raging all around them. Each one knows that the ultimate survival of them all requires taking the hand of the very powerful and SPARKING woman next to her on each side. When that happens the energy goes around and around and around and turns into perfect peace and we are all a lightening rod together in the raging storm.

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001

I've been staying out of this one because honestly I'm finding it all a little hard to follow. It seems like its morphing from one thing to another.

I think I do understand what Cindy's saying about the promise keepers and its pretty hard to find fault with the stated intent of the group and if she or anyone else is in a "submitted" relationship as she describes it and is happy there, then good for them as far as I'm concerned.

Personally I'm not having a problem at all with the chapter and verse because its not being used to force feed me Christianity against my will and "convert" me. Its just being used to support the quoters position as to why they feel and believe the way they do.

Its really hard sometimes not to paint with a broad brush. Someone might refer to Christianity for example but that would necessarily have to include ALL of Christianity and its pretty obvious to me that there's alot of different versions with a widely differing take on what the bible means. I confess that I have to tread very carefully myself when it comes to that subject because my first impulse is to think Christianity = Fundamentalism with their strict literal interpretation of the bible which I have alot of problems with. Happily tho I usually come to my senses before I shoot my mouth off and recognize that all Christians are NOT fundamentalists in the sense I think of them in my knee jerk mode.

While I'm really grateful for these bulletin boards and discussion groups this media has some serious shortcomings when it comes to nuanced messages and because religion and spirituality is such a personal topic we get too easily upset and percieve things as personal critiques or attacks when they're really nothing more than legitimate questions.

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001


Diane, I love reading what you wrote, Some beautiful things.

50 jars of Applesause on the shelf, when I shut my eyes I see red and green, and little curled leaves.

I sure do respect everyone who is trying to say sorry. I'm sorry too if any thing I said anywhere tripped anybody up.

I was sitting out on the porch at one time today, peeling apples, and had a conversation with my husband about this thread. I told him that I had told you all that I was totally unliberated and that I let him be boss.

He sat there for a minute and then he chuckled and he said," Your the Boss", Hm, So now I am wondering if my perception of reality is real. and he went on to say that he thinks that we have a very balanced and equal relationship. And I agree!

I thought that I was unliberated because the way that I want to be is so traditional, but JIm tells me that I am very liberated because I have gone to school, had careers and have my own mind. Hm

So, I was thinking about all us girls on here and I think that we are getting tangled up in words.

And the big word, is submissive. I can see why EarthMama jokenly said that it sounded kinky, it does! I just had this vision of what the word meant in a marrage, without really hearing the word. If I re listen to the word, It does sound strange, submit, it sounds like you have to cower like a dog, slink out to get your mans newspaper and run and hide when yelled at. NObody here has that kind of relationship.

Somehow I had come to accept the word as meaning the submitting of my trust,my confidence. I see submitting as a letting go of my ego, my selfish self, for the good of the whole. The whole, being our partnership, our family. Submitting to me, means joining spiritually.

If this thread has accomplished nothing else it has allowed us to look at our assumptions.There has been a tremendous word barrier, like we are all speaking in different lanquagues.

Love Tren

-- Anonymous, August 18, 2001


Wow. what's been going on here. Well my two cents worth (that may be highly inflated). Seems people tend to want to think they have a handle on REALITY when the only one that exists is between their ears. Trouble erupts when people take their thoughts and opinions and tend to think their reality exists out there in the world for others. I find it rather humorous when some say God said or did or wants or ?? As I look around at my reality it seems rather presumptous for any mere mortal to speak for god. As there seems to be a generous sprinkling of religion in the above it reminds me of something I, as part of a very small spiritual minority,am faced with almost daily. I live in a very conservative Christian area and I often hear at work statements such as 'well you can trust him, he's a christian', etc, etc. Now if I were black and someone said so and so could be trusted because he is white, I think most of us here would find that obviously offensive. When there is a disagreement over something someone will run and get a bible as if it had some relavance for the rest of us. I respect those who believe in a particular spiritual path, but it makes me uncomfortable when they start sounding as though they are superior because of those beliefs. Attended a unitarian church once and one of the things that really stood out was they shut out no ones opinion. It was also obvious that they were going to use their own MIND to decide if it had any validity for them. I've always liked the diversity of this group, I'd hate to see the diversity... divide. remember 'when one dog starts to bark at a shadow, ten thousand dogs make it a reality' peace

-- Anonymous, August 19, 2001

Well, it looks like I failed here. I was pushing my beliefs on no one and I don't think I am superior to anyone either. (I said that earlier). The verses were the only way I could explain why I belive what was asked. All of the Bible references were asked for by others. I meerly posted that the word and idea submit isn't always bad, it can be good also. There are two sides to this coin. I thought (wrongly) that both sides of the issue could be examined. I wouldn't even have kept talking except a hundred questions were thrown at me. Am I supposed to ignore them? Or answer them as honestly as I can?

What I am feeling is that I have now been lumped in with the enemy, and most don't see me as the person I am anymore. I am the same as I was before this thread was started. I don't think it is fair for folks to make me pay for the sins of other Christians. But that is what has happened here. I believe we should not judge others, yet I am the one who has been judged. Go figure.

I am thankful though for the few here who trusted me to know what I was doing (with my own life), and said it. Thank you.

-- Anonymous, August 19, 2001


Cindy, you are a blessing on this forum. I'm sorry if this whole thing has been confusing for some folks, myself included, at times (but then, I tend to confuse myself a LOT. I get so tangential...)

If I've learned anything about *anything* from this thread (these *threads*) it is how HARD it is to communicate ANYTHING complex via this medium! Incredibly hard. Maybe not worth trying to discuss anything personal, even, because we all can't take any other cues as to how anyone is reacting. Incredibly challenging.

I'm going to think about this a lot before I ever post anything this complicated again.

I'm glad for your answers. All of you. Thank you.

-- Anonymous, August 20, 2001


Well, I'm back home. I was just going to peek at this and NOT post anything until tomorrow. Ha ha, see how long that lasted!

I am REALLY, REALLY glad I was gone for awhile. I think it helped me. And now I've read what you all have posted since. Here's what I think: Sheepish has it right, there are WAY too many issues and thoughts and concepts in here. I don't think we could possibly all be discussing the all the same things. Certainly, for me, it has gotten all too confusing. Generally, I LIKE how we have thread drift and talk about all sorts of different things, but I that hasn't worked out here!

I was getting really frustrated because I couldn't seem to make myself understood, either, Cindy, as you expressed. I'm over that now, because as I said, I don't think we were all even talking about the same things. Just as an attempt to explain to you, Cindy, about my "changing what I'm asking about" -- I was trying to ask about several things, all within the original thread. My 'style' is to try to 'nail down' where others are coming from before I go onto the next step and try to connect the whole thing together. I don't know why, but I constantly FORGET that this doesn't always work out well. Sometimes it does, but other times, it gets spectacularly mixed up. Perhaps when my 'train of thought' is radically different from the other people?

Anyway, I was trying to go somewhere that it would all be tied together, but I've realized that it's just too complex to try to express in this written medium. And the stress this has caused some of us makes it not worth pursuing anymore! I feel battered and still a bit bewildered, but I'm not mad at anyone. I'm just bowing out of any more discussion of any of this and telling frustration to take a hike.

I didn't have any problems with the Bible quotes or examples that anyone used in these threads, BTW. I saw them as germane to what was being explained.

Trennie, your hubby saying that YOU are in charge made me laugh! Makes me think of friends who say "I have to ask hubby" and hubby says "YOU decide". :-)

-- Anonymous, August 20, 2001


Well, Sheepish and I were posting at the same time, again. Why can't I be that succinct and still get my points across?!? :-{

-- Anonymous, August 20, 2001

jz............in my heart of hearts I am hoping you didn't think that this is what was happening here with some of us using some Bible quotes.

"someone will run and get a bible as if it had some relavance for the rest of us. I respect those who believe in a particular spiritual path, but it makes me uncomfortable when they start sounding as though they are superior because of those beliefs"

Personally I had planned on shutting the door on this thread and not going back. All too confusing and I am sooooo afraid that people I enjoy soooooo much are going to leave over this.

My reality is just that MY reality. I don't particularly care to impose my reality on anyone else at all. BUT, it is my nature to stand up and be counted when I perceive unfair judgment of another people group..........even if I don't agree with that people group. That was MY perception of the reality that happened here and as john says it "morphed" into a lot of religious and sexual political discussions where one minority represented here perceived judgment from another minority. Another very LARGE AND PAINFUL reminder of what is happening DAILY in the real world has just been acted out for us here in our little cyber world IMHO. Hugs to ALL and EM and Cindy if you leave I am going to be major pissed off that we end up with the pervailing opinion outside of this forum, that we will fail and die, being true.

-- Anonymous, August 20, 2001


Now it seems to me that the One person who predicted our death, predicted that it would be due to lack of diversity. Now we see that we are pretty diverse in some things. EarthMama and Cindy, we love and need you both ! Love TRen

-- Anonymous, August 20, 2001

I surely don't claim to be a great communicator and that may be much too obvious. I surely didn't mean to point any finger at anyone quoting a bible verse as a means of inspiration or a basis for THEIR beliefs. If I gave that impression, I sure do apologize. I was just stating my reality but maybe i'm just a bit oversensitive with peoples insensitivity when it comes to religion, but that is my problem. Spirituality is among my favorite subjects to discuss but when I get a feeling that someone is witnessing I get uncomfortable. So if I do offend someone ,I am sorry peace,,,jz

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Well Gee, JZ, isn't that like shutting the barn door after you've already let the horse out? Allot of horses have been let out on these 2 threads. I swear, some of you talk like I'm not even here at all. There is allot of hate and predudice towards Christians here, there is no denying that fact, and if anything else, maybe, just maybe, this will rip off the false coverings and let you see for yourselves just what you really think in your hearts. What comes out of your mouth is what you are in your heart. Christains are still people you know.

I'm still waiting for Polly to explain why she thinks any man who goes to Promise Keepers is a piss-poor example of a man. Now you know I like you Polly, but really, there is more than one husband here who goes to Promise Keepers. Maybe an explanation?

And I'm not holding any unforgiveness in my heart towards anyone. It's not worth it. I'm just not sure blowing this off is a good thing. Don't the pagan words go something like "If it harm no one". And it also says that pagans are very tolerant of other beliefs. I don't think so. Maybe some of you should go back and do some reading on your own beliefs. Practice what you preach so to speak.

And this type-written format does not make it hard to communicate. I had no trouble at all reading what people wrote. It would help if I didn't have to look up words in the dictionary, like germane, it means appropriate or revelant. So, my verses were revelant to the question. And Succinct means concise.

The problem comes from giving your bad opinions on someone else's belief, when you should just be talking about your own belief. It is possible to talk about the pagan beliefs without putting down the Christian belief. And what happened to just plain good manners?

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001


I didn't say Steve was a piss poor example of a man if he went to promise keepers, which seems to be how you are taking it.

I said "....If you need that type of organization to tell you how to act, you must be a piss poor example of a man to start with."

Note the word "need".

Cindy, you said:

"Promise Keepers is about the men, and men getting back to what being a husband and father mean. Being true to your wife, loving your kids and spending time with them, being honest at your work, being fair to your employees, a man of your word, taking care of your family first, before spending it all on yourselves, pay your bills, help when help is needed."

And

"The 10 character traits of PK's are: Maintain moral purity (clean heart, clean mind) Solicit honest feedback. Practice real forgiveness and receive real forgiveness. Make courageous decisions. Remain flexable. Practice good time management. Handle money correctly. Weather unfairness and injustice. Fail without failing. Successfully handle success."

"Really it's all about men building integrity within themselves and having to answer to other men on their actions. They incourage small groups of men to meet on a regular basis and be accountable to each other on their actions, as men."

Seems to me that a man who is unfaithful to his wife, neglects his kids, cheats his boss and/or employees, lies, squanders money, does nothing to help others, lusts after other people's women/possessions, doesn't care what other's think about his actions, takes the easy way out, refuses to consider that other's might have an opinion, and bitches, whines and gloats.......IS a piss poor example of a man. (Change a few genders and make it a piss poor example of a woman if you want.)

I worked in a male dominated field - and the guys didn't like having women in there. I listened to vulgarity, got leered at, "bumped" into, had these jackasses trying to look up or down my shirt, got propositioned, listened to rude comments about my anatomy....all from these good Christian Promise Keepers. I listened to their stories and watched them run around with floozies out at the plant. I listened to their plans to go here or there - wife and kids staying at home, of course. I saw their boats and fancy trucks, did their job while they took loooong breaks. I did nothing to encourage them, I pretty much ignored them or told them to piss off. This was their gentle way of discouraging women from working in that area of the plant. What really po'd me tho, was when Hubby (then boyfriend) and I were up for a promotion to the same job. I had more senoirity, better scores on my apprenticeship tests and more experience. These jerks told me that I should step back and decline the promotion and let John have it, because; after all - he was the man, and the man should be the head of the household. Didn't matter that he was single, with no bills; and I was a single parent trying to care for my child and buy a home; which, by the way - he did not move into until after we got married.

Promise Keepers and it's whole premise seems to me to be a support group. I don't have much use for support groups, as a general rule. Reckon I feel if you NEED support, then you must be weak. I guess it just doesn't make sense to me that a whole bunch of weakness adds up to strength.

And as far as being accountable to other men for their actions, well; I'll just say that I have a lot higher standards than those guys did.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001


Oh my gosh, are we all just a mess, or what!

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Prob'ly why I was sitting back with my mouth shut, Tren. Reckon I should have kept it that way, but I don't like being mis-quoted.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Cindy, Polly had a bad experiance with Promice keepers, that doesn't mean that you have to take it personally.

I don't like Olives, actually I hate Olives, think they are gross, but my husband likes Olives, He doesn't let it bother his pleasure of Olives one bit, when I say Yuk, as he is munching down on them.

It's OK that Polly doesn't like Promice Keepers. Myself, I have seen it as a good thing, and I think that the men of today do need direction and support and role models of how to be, as a good many are confused on how to act today. I would much rather see a young man do what is right, then to leave a young girl pregnant to raise fatherless children which is happening more and more in our society.

And I differ with Polly too, on the fact that she thinks that any support means that we are weak. Gee I don't know I think we all need support of some kind or the other, we aren't islands. But I think you ruffled up Pollys feathers a bit Cindy and she is a bit defensive, which seems to be ahappening alot here!

PEACE! TREn

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001


I'm not really sure what to say but feel like I want to say SOMETHING. I've been following these threads and it just gets more and more confusing. As I read the responses I can see where each person is coming from. JZ refers to his personal experiences as well as Polly, EM, and everyone else. That's exactly what's going on here. Everyone is speaking from her/his own experiences and personal reality. There are so many twists and turns and life and so many different people we come in contact with and each and every one makes us a unique individual. Along with those varied contacts and experiences come good things as well as hurts and biases. But because we've not all experienced exactly the same things in our lives it's sometimes very hard to understand another persons take on things. So I guess I'm saying that each and everyone here is correct in view of their own personal experiences.

Let's get back to our group reality of knowing from the get go that we are all very different and that these differences are what brought us together at this forum. I'm not going to say that someone is right or wrong according to what my life has been for me. I've lead a completely different life. I can see somewhat how each person has come to their conclusions.

Cindy, I see you as one of the most kind, common sense, intelligent people around. EM, you have caused me rethink a few of my latent biases due to your intelligence and points of view. Diane if you could only know how I appreciate your experience! Joy, you remind me a little of me when you talk of getting all the facts so you can put it all together.

I've seen many apologies and explanations in this thread but we can't seem to just let this one go. We'll never reconcile all of these differences until we realize we'll never reconcile all of these differences. It just doesn't seem productive to continue on in this fashion. Let's just realize that one person's reality is not necessarily another's. Accept the apologies and move on.

Please realize I am saying these things with fondness and concern from my heart. I care about you all!

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001


I didn't mean to miss-quote you on purpose Polly. And thank you for comming back and explaining why you felt that way. Like I said, there is another husband here besides Steve, and maybe they needed to hear it also. Steve and the older fellows go to help the younger ones and be a support. I believe we all need love and support these days, it's a hard world out there. And yes, I can say from what Steve says to me, he needs it. He is surrounded all year at work by rude, nasty men, talking bad about their wives and the like. He needs to be a part of something where none of the men act that way, and he can be uplifted and taught new things also. I believe we never stop learning to be better. We all have our weak sides, and it helps to hear from others how they deal with it. Like I said and I mean, I am not mad at anyone. I just don't have the time to be mad anymore.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Denise, Very well said.Yep, lets just agree to disagree. Love TRen

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001

Polly, did I say what I meant to say. Did I say that we didn't agree on some things but that we didn't have to argue about it? I didn't sound like I was picking on you did I? Cause I didn't mean it that way. And I think the whole case in point here, is that people are expressing how they feel and it feels like a personal attack to the other person.

You know what , I have never had such an ongoing conversation with such a mature and interesting group of people as I have had on this forum. This is my first experiance with cyber space relationships. And you know what is so cool about it? The fact that we can be who we really are. I can imagine that some people would enjoy being a made up personality over the net, because nobody can see them, or really knows them, and they could be whoever they want to be.

But we pretty much seem to enjoy being who we are and having the freedom to express who we are. For example, I can't go down the hill, and have a little talk with my neighbor and tell him that I think thatI am a Native American Pagen, nor can I tell the mothers of the Homeschooled children that my homescholled child plays with, or my child wouldn't be allowed to participate in the activitys, Nor can I tell my Mother, for it would break her heart.

But here, here I can be me. I can say what I really feel. If by saying what I really feel, I hurt someone else who feels differently, Please don't take it, like I don't like you, or like I wanted to hurt you, I was only trying to express myself. Cindy is this what EarthMama, Joy and Polly and everybody else is trying to say?

Cindy I can understand where you are coming from, I can understand that if someone were speaking of something that was dear to me, in a negetive fashion that it would grieve me, and I understand your deire to come to the defense of it. I know if some one said the the Native Americans were a bunch of hogwash or something, that I would say , Wait a minute.!

TRen

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001


Hi guys again: My two cents worth again.

First, in general I agree with Cindy on this one. Polly said something like a bunch of weak men united don't make even one of them strong but if she's had bad experiences with some "PK" types its no wonder she has a bad opinion of them.

To me thats the purpose of a support group. Ideally, these guys see moral decay in society and have assembled to collectively address it according to biblical principles as they understand them. Treading any spiritual path at all is better than none as far as I'm concerned.

Couldn't this forum be considered a support group? We share the common interest in things country. We come here to rant, whine, discuss, celebrate, commiserate etc. and we should all feel safe doing so. After all, we are among friends and we all benefit in some way from participating on this board.

No doubt some of the PK guys ARE weak but so what. Its no crime or sin to be weak. But collectively I suspect they're alot stronger than any one of the strongest would be alone. If a person is treading uncharted territory for themselves its nice to know there's "back up" available for help when needed.

As to a bias against Christians----Hmmm? Like I said earlier, I confess to a knee-jerk reaction when I hear "Christian" because the first thing that comes to mind are the fundamentalists and their inappropriate prostheltysing and the apparent lack of intellectual integrity. Happily tho I rarely react from that space however, recognizing there are alot of different kindsa Christians.

When you hear Muslem what do you think? The first thing that comes to my mind is the Taliban, the Ayatollah, and the extremists. But when I come to my senses I understand I'm paying attention to the vocal and noisy minority who aren't necessarily representative of Islam as a whole.

I think its important to remember that when we exchange points of view here, that's all we're doing. Your opinion, their opinion, my opinion---it's just opinion. Even when irrefutable facts are presented, what the facts mean and their implications are often just opinion. I know its hard sometimes when we're being challenged to not take it personally but its still good advice IMO to not take alot of this stuff personally.

-- Anonymous, August 21, 2001


Tren ...you were talking about having a safe place,that struck a cord with me.I have been reading and quite frankly walking on eggshells and trying to refrain from shooting off my mouth.I really want people to be comfortable enough to express who they are but not at the expense of others.Its like John said about muslims etc. and our stereotyping them.What has just happened here is alot of that.No-one would get on this forum and mock the pagan feasts the native healing rituals or make comments about for example offerings of honey ,or harvest celebrations,but honestly without malice toward anyone in particular ,...its always open season on Christians.And quite frankly they embaress me sometimes too and I is one!!!I apologize to Polly that she met some real jerks,but how they behaved says who they are ,not who promise keepers isWe live near a reservation,some natives drink to excess and cause damage,some of the kids come to school drunk etc. but today I spent 8 hrs. on the reserve,and I heard them sing in Ojibway and speak Cayuga,and burn sweetgrass,and I was in awe.I know I am not very well known here ,but I love to hear how you worship,what you worship and where .It does not threaten me,I grow and learn from it.And yes I do take it personally,if what I believe in is not respected,that's my spirit guide my source of strength and my life-force that is being misunderstood,misinterpreted and be-littled.If we claim to be loving,liberal and open -minded,are we only open-minded until it becomes too traditional looking?? Out of the abundance of my heart, my mouth speaks,I can't be seperated from my soul when I speak,but I will respect you enough not to cram my beliefs down your throat,and I hope that any expression of my faith would be treated with a tender respect , cuz thats who I am.Blessings...

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Teri, and John, I love what you both said, I am reading them several times over. Love TRen

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

I have friends in real life (not internet kind) and sometimes when we chat , sometimes the phrase 'you dumb shit ,get your head out of your ... will occur. Now i'm not proposing that here but the idea is that we disagree on things. So what. It doesn't alter the fact that we love and respect each other. As Tren said, how about if we agree to disagree. The important thing is to remember that beyond these words, we all have that connection...like that namaste thing,,I honor that place in you, and that place in me where we are all one. Back to my point about reality. 'Individual reality'. Not having walked in another shoes, who can legitimately judge anothers path or maybe even more importantly, understand another persons path,and who says we have to? We can have opinions but, in my opinion, the trouble comes when we start taking our views too seriously. Whoops,John already said that,I agree. I think someone mentioned that this forum was a microcosm of the world at large. How true I think. Standing up for the 'truth', insisting on one reality ... carried to the extreme... brings to mind Israel, northern Ireland, etc. Who needs that ,life is too short. Well it's time to go round up those horses and see if I can't build a better corral Cindy. namaste jz

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

Lovely Jz.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001

I have to disagree with Polly about support groups meaning one is weak. Nearly everyone has some support group or system, whether it's formally organized or it's your family or friends. Or maybe, all humans are weak -- if needing or wanting support is weak. Yeah, I think (and I probably fooling myself) that I can "go it on my own", but I surely DO NOT WANT TO. I'm out of sync with a LOT of society, and though that's largely because of my own choices, it gets lonely. The thought of doing without the support I DO have makes me shudder!

Teri, I'm not really disagreeing with you, but just a general comment about open-mindness and tolerance: For myself, being open-minded and tolerant is not without it's limits. I'm not so tolerant that I accept anything and everything. I imagine, however, that each of us has our own limits.

-- Anonymous, August 22, 2001


I am posting a request here:
PLEASE DO NOT POST ANYTHING FURTHER TO THIS THREAD.

Please see this thread for an explanation

-- Anonymous, August 23, 2001


Moderation questions? read the FAQ