Jmj

Since some of us (including myself) seem to be getting deeply involved in dialog with people who follow the religion called "Islam," I thought that I had a duty to read what the Catholic Church has recently stated, in an official way, about this religion and our relations with its adherents. I hoped that these statements would help guide me in the way I should most effectively communicate with Muslims. I have to admit that our past exchanges (on another recent thread) have not been very cordial and productive.

Therefore, I am going to quote, below, from three major sources. I hope that everyone has enough time to read at least the first two major sections, which are not terribly long. (I myself have not yet read the longer third section, but I intend to tomorrow.)
(1) "Nostra aetate" -- i.e., "In our time" -- The Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions, written by the Fathers (3,000 world bishops) of the Second Vatican Council (published in 1965).
(2) "Crossing the Threshold of Hope" -- a book written by Pope John Paul II (published in 1994).
(3) Various excerpts from five yearly messages to Muslims at the end of Ramadan from Cardinal Francis Arinze, president of the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue.

[From "Nostra aetate":]

1. In our time, when day by day mankind is being drawn closer together, and the ties between different peoples are becoming stronger, the Church examines more closely her relationship to non-Christian religions. In her task of promoting unity and love among men, indeed among nations, she considers above all in this declaration what men have in common and what draws them to fellowship.

One is the community of all peoples, one their origin, for God made the whole human race to live over the face of the earth. [Cf. Acts 17:26 ] One also is their final goal, God. His providence, His manifestations of goodness, His saving design extend to all men, [Cf. Wis. 8:1; Acts 14:17; Rom. 2:6-7; 1 Tim. 2:4] until that time when the elect will be united in the Holy City, the city ablaze with the glory of God, where the nations will walk in His light. [Cf. Apoc. 21:23f.]

Men expect from the various religions answers to the unsolved riddles of the human condition, which today, even as in former times, deeply stir the hearts of men: What is man? What is the meaning, the aim of our life? What is moral good, what sin? Whence suffering and what purpose does it serve? Which is the road to true happiness? What are death, judgment and retribution after death? What, finally, is that ultimate inexpressible mystery which encompasses our existence: whence do we come, and where are we going?

2. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense.

Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. [Some positive comments about Hinduism and Buddhism, omitted by me, follow. JFG] Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself. [Cf 2 Cor. 5:18-19]

The Church, therefore, exhorts her children, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.

3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, [Cf. St. Gregory VII, letter XXI to Anzir (Nacir), King of Mauritania] who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

[From "Crossing the Threshold of Hope":]

A very different discussion [from Buddhism, in the previous chapter], obviously, is the one that leads us to the synagogues and mosques, where those who worship the One God assemble. Yes, certainly it is a different case when we come to these great monotheistic religions, beginning with Islam. In the Declaration Nostra Aetate we read: "The Church also has a high regard for the Muslims, who worship one God, living and subsistent, merciful and omnipotent, the Creator of heaven and earth" (Nostra Aetate 3). As a result of their monotheism, believers in Allah are particularly close to us.

I remember an event from my youth. In the convent of the Church of Saint Mark in Florence, we were looking at the frescoes by Fra Angelico. At a certain point a man joined us who, after sharing his admiration for the work of this great religious artist, immediately added: "But nothing can compare to our magnificent Muslim monotheism." His statement did not prevent us from continuing the visit and the conversation in a friendly tone. It was on that occasion that I got a kind of first taste of the dialogue between Christianity and Islam, which we have tried to develop systematically in the post-conciliar period.

Whoever knows the Old and New Testaments, and then reads the Koran, clearly sees the process by which it completely reduces Divine Revelation. It is impossible not to note the movement away from what God said about Himself, first in the Old Testament through the Prophets, and then finally in the New Testament through His Son. In Islam all the richness of God's self-revelation, which constitutes the heritage of the Old and New Testaments, has definitely been set aside.

Some of the most beautiful names in the human language are given to the God of the Koran, but He is ultimately a God outside of the world, a God who is only Majesty, never Emmanuel, God-with-us. Islam is not a religion of redemption. There is no room for the Cross and the Resurrection. Jesus is mentioned, but only as a prophet who prepares for the last prophet, Muhammad. There is also mention of Mary, His Virgin Mother, but the tragedy of redemption is completely absent. For this reason not only the theology but also the anthropology of Islam is very distant from Christianity.

Nevertheless, the religiosity of Muslims deserves respect. It is impossible not to admire, for example, their fidelity to prayer. The image of believers in Allah who, without caring about time or place, fall to their knees and immerse themselves in prayer remains a model for all those who invoke the true God, in particular for those Christians who, having deserted their magnificent cathedrals, pray only a little or not at all.

The [Second Vatican] Council has also called for the Church to have a dialogue with followers of the "Prophet," and the Church has proceeded to do so. We read in Nostra Aetate: "Even if over the course of centuries Christians and Muslims have had more than a few dissensions and quarrels, this sacred Council now urges all to forget the past and to work toward mutual understanding as well as toward the preservation and promotion of social justice, moral welfare, peace, and freedom for the benefit of all mankind" (Nostra Aetate 3).

From this point of view, as I have already mentioned, the meetings for prayer held at Assisi (especially that for peace in Bosnia, in 1993), certainly played a significant role. Also worthwhile were my meetings with the followers of Islam during my numerous apostolic trips to Africa and Asia, where sometimes, in a given country, the majority of the citizens were Muslims. Despite this, the Pope was welcomed with great hospitality and was listened to with similar graciousness.

The trip I made to Morocco at the invitation of King Hassan II can certainly be defined as a historic event. It was not simply a courtesy visit, but an event of a truly pastoral nature. The encounter with the young people at Casablanca Stadium (1985) was unforgettable. The openness of the young people to the Pope's words was striking when he spoke of faith in the one God. It was certainly an unprecedented event.

Nevertheless, concrete difficulties are not lacking. In countries where fundamentalist movements come to power, human rights and the principle of religious freedom are unfortunately interpreted in a very one-sided way. Religious freedom comes to mean freedom to impose on all citizens the "true religion." In these countries the situation of Christians is sometimes terribly disturbing. Fundamentalist attitudes of this nature make reciprocal contacts very difficult. All the same, the Church remains always open to dialogue and cooperation.

[Friends, it was with great pleasure that I discovered that the complete text of the Pope's book is now accessible on the Internet.]

[From the messages of Cardinal Arinze (whom I have long prayed will be our next pope):]

(In the year 2001)
Together with the other religious practices which accompany it, such as prayer and alms-giving, Ramadan is a time for assessing relationships with God and with one’s fellow human beings, a time for turning back to God and towards one’s brothers and sisters. Fasting is one of the ways in which we give worship to God, come to the help of the poor and strengthen family ties and the bonds of friendship. Fasting is a form of education, for it reveals to us our own weakness and opens us up to God, so that we may be open to others.

Though the fast you observe has its own characteristics and discipline, fasting is a practice which is also common to Christianity and to other religions. This month provides a propitious moment therefore for us to remind ourselves of "the spiritual bonds which unite us," to use the words of Pope John Paul II. (In the year 2000)
For Christianity, Jesus is the Word of God made flesh, born of the Virgin Mary. He is a prophet, but more than a prophet. As Pope John Paul II declared during his meeting with young Muslims in Casablanca, Morocco, on 19 August 1985 : "Loyalty demands also that we should recognize and respect our differences. Obviously the most fundamental is the view that we hold on the person and work of Jesus of Nazareth. You know that, for Christians, this Jesus causes them to enter into an intimate knowledge of the mystery of God and into filial communion by his gifts, so that they recognize him and proclaim him Lord and Saviour. This way of understanding Jesus does not in any way infringe upon the monotheism of Christians. In fact the Christian profession of faith begins: "I believe in one God, Creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible". According to the Christian vision, the oneness of God is not lived in isolation, but rather in a communion of life and love: this is the inscrutable mystery of the Trinity.

With regard to Jesus, as in other fields, we are called as Christians and Muslims to know and respect the religious convictions of the other, to discover that which unites us and what makes us different. Knowing and respecting these convictions does not necessarily imply sharing them. To be able to speak about them objectively and with respect forms part of the way we should behave as persons of belief. Cannot the social and spiritual message of Jesus be considered to constitute a common heritage ?

We think that all people, but especially Muslims, can share with us the values that we have received from Jesus: total obedience to the will of God witness, given to the truth, humility in behaviour, control of one's speech, justice in one’s actions, mercy shown in deeds, love towards all, pardon granted for wrong done, maintaining peace with all brothers and sisters. Jesus is the man of suffering and also the man of hope. Like us, but even more than us, he has been lowly, poor, humiliated, a worker, oppressed, suffering ( cf. the homily of Pope Paul VI in Manila, 29 November 1970). Is not Jesus thus a model and a permanent message for humanity ?

(In the year 1999)
God loves all human beings, excluding no one. He is the source of all love in the family, in society, in the world. It is from God that we learn to love one another in a gratuitous manner, without expecting any reward here below. God is the Merciful One. He is close to his servants. He hears their prayers. So we can say that belief in God impels us to an attitude of good will towards our brothers and sisters.

There are many ways of showing love, expressions of our faithfulness to the Merciful One: almsgiving - the alms on the occasion of ‘Id al-Fitr have special importance for you -, care for orphans, the aged, the sick, for strangers, as also the commitment to promote human dignity and in favour of human rights, commitment to development, to the fight against many evils of our societies such as illiteracy, the influence of drugs, the abuse of minors, violence against women. Pardon, reconciliation, reopening dialogues that have broken down, the promotion of peace, education in respect for others - all these are different ways of expressing love. There exists, between our two religions, a considerable degree of agreement with regard to effectively showing mercy to one’s neighbour. Is there not here a wide field for collaboration between Christians and Muslims which needs to be developed ?

Offences against the love of neighbour are also numerous: ignoring the needs of others, refusing the duty of solidarity, hatred, discrimination based on sex, race or religion, injustice in all its forms. There is great convergence between our two religions in condemning such faults.

God’s love for humanity is universal, going beyond political frontiers, beyond the differences of race, culture or religion, beyond political or ideological options, independent of any particular social situation. We are therefore invited, on the basis of our belief, to love one another. True love is indeed at the heart of the believer’s way of acting.

I am addressing to you this message fully conscious that we, both Christians and Muslims, have not always loved and respected one another as God requires of us. Unfortunately this lack of mutual love is not only a fact of past history, but is also part of present reality. Nevertheless it is important at the same time to note and to make known the numerous situations where Christians and Muslims live peacefully and fruitfully together. Such examples encourage us to do all we can so that Christians and Muslims everywhere may live together in this way. We are invited to examine the nature of our relations, both in the past and in the present, and above all to make a decision to become more and more what God calls us to be: witnesses of his goodness and mercy, especially towards the weaker members of society.

(In the year 1998)
Together with other believers, we Christians and Muslims, are "God seekers". The Book of Psalms, the Zabûr, describes this human endeavour as a search for the Face of God: "My heart has said of you, 'Seek his face'. Lord, I do seek your face; do not hide your face from me." (Ps 26:8-9). All the good actions which the believer tries to perform, such as prayer, fasting and alms-giving, come under the sign of this search for God. They are an expression of a continuous conversion to God. We can say that the search for God is also a sign of hope.

During our earthly pilgrimage to eternity, al-dâr al-âkhira, it is belief in God which enlightens, guides and strengthens us, while hope creates in us a desire and expectation for the good things to come, God's reward if we have lived a life of faith and of love for God and our fellow human beings.

Hope enables us to perceive the good that exists in our world. It is the fruit and mark of divine action in human hearts. There are numerous "signs of hope": the growing solidarity among people in our time, especially with the poor and destitute, the desire for justice and peace, voluntary service, the return of religion, an awareness of human dignity and of the rights which flow from it, attention to the environment, etc. I wish to mention here a particular sign of hope, which Pope John Paul II has underlined, namely interreligious dialogue.

How sad it is when members of the same family no longer speak to one another, avoid looking at one another, avoid meeting ! How sad it is when Muslims and Christans, who are part of the one human family, ignore one another, no longer exchange greetings or, even worse, quarrel with one another ! And yet, how beautiful it is to live in peace with everyone, to meet together, to speak of our joys and sorrows, our fears and hopes ! How can we not see in the dialogue between believers, and in particular between Muslims and Christians, a sign of hope for the present and for the future ?

People of faith and hope are, at the same time, realists who do not close their eyes to reality with all its positive and negative aspects. We cannot turn a blind eye to the dramatic crises of our world: the wars between different countries, civil wars, terrorism in all its forms, injustice which is forever widening the gap between rich and poor, hunger, the lack of shelter, unemployment - especially among the youth, the problem of drugs, immorality, abortion. The list could be extended. Nevertheless the small lamp of hope must always remain alight, shining on the paths leading humanity to a better future.

Christians and Muslims, we can work together to give increased hope to humanity. Yet first we must acc+ept our differences, show each other mutual respect and true love, under the eyes of God who shows his mercy to all. We are called to make an "alliance for peace" in which we renounce violence as a method of solving matters of contention. We wish to present ourselves to the world as believers in God and as faithful to human beings, to their dignity, to their rights. This will render us more credible as believers, and we shall be for humanity a further sign of hope in addition to those which exist already.

(in the year 1997)
It is faith, that trusting and obedient submission to God, which has motivated your fast during the month of Ramadan. Muslims and Christians, we define ourselves as "believers" and, together with Jews, we see in Abraham a model for our faith.

It was through faith that Abraham put his entire trust in God and obeyed His every command: he left his native land, his tribe, his father's family, to journey towards an unknown country. It was through faith that, without hesitating, he was ready to offer his son, when God put him to the test. This is why Abraham is such an outstanding model of complete dedication to God.

Following the example of Abraham, Jews, Christians and Muslims strive to give to God the place in their lives which is His due as Fount and Origin, Master and Guide, and Ultimate Destiny of all beings. Yet they are aware too that there are also other believers, men and women with religious sentiments, who are worthy of respect. It is, in fact, in the name of God that every authentic believer shows respect for each human person. Religion cannot be thought to authorise us, on the basis of our differences, to adopt negative attitudes towards one another.

This is not to say that we should overlook differences, but do we not have common concerns ? How are we to transmit religious values to the next generation ? How are we to educate young people to respect the faith of others when it differs from their own ? How can we give common witness, in a way which is credible, to those who do not believe in God ? How can we commit ourselves to the service of humanity, to every person and to the whole person, on the basis of our faith in God ? Such are the questions and challenges that face us, Muslims and Christians, as humanity prepares to enter a new millennium. It may be necessary for Christians and Muslims to meet more often in order to search together, before God, for answers to these questions.

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@amdg.ihs), August 23, 2001

Answers

-- (_@_._), August 23, 2001.

John,

As always, your submissions are wonderful. I cannot believe how timely and God driven this post is for me. I am a director/team leader for Adult Initiation of the unbaptized at my parish (where I am also an employee). Just this year we received inquiry from a Muslim woman who is facing persecution should her family find out her desire to become Catholic. Because of the teachings of the Muslim faith, to become Catholic, she must go into hiding, change her name and never have contact with her family again. She is marrying a Catholic, but is driven toward our faith. If her family discovers her plans, and learns that she pursued baptism, she is certain they will follow the instruction of the Muslim faith, and eliminate her. It is all very delicate right now...especially since her family's "obligation" could be extended to those who are involved in this process. She is holding off for now, her initiation...but when she "disappears", we will be embracing her in our wonderful Catholic faith.

Thank you for this information.

All peace and good <')))><

Melissa

-- Melissa (holy_rhodes@earthlink.net), August 24, 2001.

This is where I have a problem with the Muslim faith. How can any faith teach its followers to murder someone simply because they are leaving their faith? The religion should teach its followers to pray for the person, not kill them. I know the Catholic religion has done some questionable things in the past, but these were due to poor decisions of the popes at the times, not part of the faith.

-- (@ .), August 24, 2001.

Thank you very much, Melissa.
May the Holy Spirit be the guide of you and your team and especially the dear Muslim woman who wishes to become a Catholic.
I am praying for a happy conclusion to your delicate situation.
JFG

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), August 24, 2001.

Many thanks, John.

She is earnest in her desire to be baptized into the Catholic faith, but considering all she must "coordinate", your prayers are most welcome...and encouraged. To enter into a "witness protection" type of existance is something I cannot fathom, but must be a reflection on the early persecuted Christians. To renounce family and change identity for the faith is something we should all ponder. If a person is willing to make such sacrifice, we should all count our blessings to be able to be Christians...even though, as Catholics, we continually rebuff those who fail to accept our Catholicism. Her situation serves to encourage my faith.

All peace and good Melissa

<')))><

-- Melissa (holy_rhodes@earthlink.net), August 25, 2001.

Very interesting article, John. I read all three topics and I to believe that we all can and should live in peace. You and Melissa have to realize that when a Muslim woman marries a non-Muslim man, the family of the woman would not mind if he became a Muslim. The reason why she is in fear of her life may be of “cultural” beliefs of the family. Another reason is that, her family may not want her to commit “Shirk” (setting up partners with God) which could be considered the highest sin in Islam.

Let me add this, I to do know a “Catholic” 24-year-old woman who married and became a Muslim and was disowned by her family. I also know a 19 year-old male who believed in Islam and left “Christianity” to follow Islam, was kicked out of his parents house to live on his own. Is this right? Don’t think that because “A Muslim” acts one way, Christians, Catholics and Jews would react differently, or in a “more civilized manner”. Some families may become very hostile; some may be upset but still respect the daughters’ wishes.

Melissa from that post, if a person who never knew about Islam read your message, may be inclined to think that Muslims aren’t rational people. State why her family is upset, has she become a different person before her marriage? Does her family feel this why because of “Shirk”, her eating pork, consuming alcohol? Alternatively, maybe she committed premarital sex? I am wondering these questions. marrys

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), August 25, 2001.

Pardon, Levent--
These things are nobody's business except this girl's. That's precisely where our two cultures differ. A person that dares to deviate from the norms of his/her religion should not be castigated and persecuted, least of all by her own family. So what if a person does ''shirk?'' That is between her and God.

Naturally, a great disappointment is expected for her family. But not to the point where she must hide from them, lest she be killed or mistreated. Do you think when Martin Luther openly defied the Pope and the Church, they put out a fatwah or price on his head? No-- The only recourse for the Church was to condemn his acts, and pronounce him in grave error.

I know this is a touchy subject for good people such as you; you have very little choice but to condone your religion's unjust ways. It is the price of your faith. That's why I, for one would rather not enter into established cultural customs. Some are abhorent to westerners, even though other customs may be magnificent. I would rather talk of the faith-- a matter of why we believe either your prophet, or Our own Beloved Saviour. Let's leave the sins aside, and concentrate on God's Will, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the tenets of Islam in their most noble form. That's plenty to keep us busy, and without stepping on toes.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), August 25, 2001.

I totally agree, eugene

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), August 25, 2001.

I totally agree that it is a touchy subject. Do I condone it? I feel sorry for the young lady when she will be questioned for her actions.

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), August 25, 2001.

Jmj

Hello, Levent.
I am not trying to re-open the discussion or draw you into an argument, but I just want to let you know that Melissa was talking about a woman who considers herself in grave danger. This is not about a woman being "questioned" or "shunned" -- as may happen sometimes when a Christian becomes a non-Christian or when a Christian from one denomination joins a different denomination. No, what Melissa was describing was a woman who fears for her very life, because of her desired conversion from Islam to Catholicism. She is in danger of being killed -- i.e., martyred -- for her religious convictions. That is why Melissa used the word, "eliminate." In fact, the Catholics who wish to help this woman themselves are concerned that they would be targets for murder too. Needless to say, NO Catholic or other Christian ever needs to fear being killed for changing his/her religion. The same should be true for people of all other religions who wish to become Catholics.

Levent, I decided to write this note, because it appeared to me that you didn't understand the seriousness of the problem that Melissa described. Now I don't believe that you, Levent, would kill such a woman. I sense that, having been well exposed to "Western" ways, you have been positively influenced in the direction of greater tolerance and justice. But within the 1.3 billion people who call themselves Muslims, apparently there is some kind of "wing" [large? small? Sunni? Shi'a?] that would sanction such a killing. This is very sad.

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), August 26, 2001.

Dear John, and Dear Levent--
This forum is very blessed to have a Muslim of proper disposition visit and enjoy our hospitality; as long as our words are mutually friendly. I have to say Levent shows an exceptional faith in God, coming to us with willingness to exchange cordial words. It's to be expected he shows his religion in its best light; he's a believer. A Catholic wants others to see Catholicism as he sees it: God's revealed truth. He is also a believer.

I am of the opinion nobody else except God Himself is able to shake our comfortable beliefs. No man can shake mine; of that I'm certain. But God would, if I were not in the truth. There is the solid basis for our efforts and enthusiasm, as we meet the challenges to our faith.

God wills that the truth be found out. He is no friend to false belief, no matter how sincere and heart-felt.

In ancient times, there were tests by which a decision was arrived at; leaving it all up to God. They were called trial by ordeal. Two champions took the field and fought until one was defeated or killed. The result was a proof of God's grace. He who won the trial proved what god had decided.

These primitive trials said to all believers, ''Trust in God, the final Judge.'' By today's standards, they are close to nonsense. David and Goliath aren't about to defend anybody's particular faith in our day. But always remember. Discussion leads to thought. Thought leads to more thought; sometimes to doubt. Then we turn to Him; God who sends us grace and wisdom to understand.

I have no hope at all of converting a man like Levent. I hope God can convert him. I only send to Levent what I have. A thought on the subject we've discussed. A thought which God may give him to meditate; leading to another, deeper thought. And God is the one that will bring Levent and Larry-- both excellent men-- to a new revelation of His Divine Will.

Notice that I'm saying all this honestly, and openly. Levent can't say my motive isn't clear. It is to bring him to Christ someday. But not by myself; by the grace of God with my co-operation. Let it be so, Most Holy and Sacred heart of Jesus! God bless our Muslim friends, and save them from all harm and misfortune; in this and the next life! Amen.

-- eugene c.chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), August 27, 2001.

Thanks, Eugene and John, for hopping in and further clarifying my initial post. I never meant to submit judgement...only that the information presented was timely to my situation. I furthered that by detailing the information I was given from this Muslim woman, and nothing that was formed from my own beliefs.

-- Melissa (holy_rhodes@earthlink.net), August 27, 2001.

"But within the 1.3 billion people who call themselves Muslims, apparently there is some kind of "wing" [large? small? Sunni? Shi'a?] that would sanction such a killing. This is very sad."

Eugene, that quote is entirely incorrect. There is no “wing” in Islam that would do something like that. You can’t judge an entire religion because of some minorities. (I looked in the Quran if there is anything of that nature where it says the family has to kill a Muslim girl if she marries a non-muslim and I haven’t found it. I will also search Haddeths about this topic but it will take some time.)

I am not one to cut and past verses from the Quran but I think this is fitting: Almighty Allah says: "Do not marry unbelievers [idolaters] until they believe: a slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry [your girls] to unbelievers until they believe: a man slave is better than an unbeliever even though he allures you. Unbelievers do [but] beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden [of Bliss] and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clears to mankind: that they may celebrate His praise." (Holy Qur'an 2: 221) So I can say that there is some kind of “wing” of Christians or Catholics that are against interracial marriages. Wasn’t there a hanging in Mississippi a year of two ago of the Young black man dating a white girl? Or the KKK is enough to back me up.

How would you feel if I came out and said that there is a “wing” of Catholic girls that are very “easy”. I see them wearing the cross on their necks but the way they dress and flirt Prophet Isa wouldn’t have like that. I guess Jesus died for their sins so it is okay for them to behave in such a manner because they aren’t accountable for their sins.

There are so many misconceptions about Islam. People either see something on the news or see a Muslim behaving in an improper manner and pass a judgment. http://www.thetruereligion.org/terror.htm here is a site that will talk about those judgments in 2 or 3 pages.

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), August 27, 2001.

Jmj

I appreciate your comments, Eugene. I agree with them to a large extent. But I wonder ... Are you suggesting that we close out this thread because our conversation is hopeless or even counterproductive? In other words, did you have a "goal," in posting that message, that perhaps "went over my head?" Or are you encouraging us to continue with respectful dialogue?

Thanks, Levent, for that URL. I visited the page and copied its contents, which I will read later.
I was, however, rather disappointed at the excited and rather vengeful way in which you responded to my very innocent comments. [I was the one who wrote the words that you quoted -- not Eugene.] I am disappointed that you have begun doing, on this thread, the same thing that you were doing on the other thread -- taking every statement that has the slightest hint of negative connotation about Islam or certain Muslims and turning it around into a bashing of Christianity or Catholicism. I thought that I had cured you of that kind of tit-for-tat on the other thread. We will never make any progress if you approach everything we write here with something bordering on paranoia. Please assume a "good will" on our part. Otherwise there is no point in carrying on. Did you not stop to think about the "good will" I showed by posting the passages from Church documents at the top of this thread? Please relax and assume that we are friends here! We don't come here to make all Muslims look like a devils or their religion look like satanism. For us to do that would be crazy and a complete rejection of what the pope and Vatican Council have said.

Now let's look again at what I wrote: "But within the 1.3 billion people who call themselves Muslims, apparently there is some kind of "wing" [large? small? Sunni? Shi'a?] that would sanction such a killing. This is very sad."
[And you replied, "You can't judge an entire religion because of some minorities."]

Levent, you need to read my words in the same manner that I wrote them -- with great care. I tried to be careful on purpose, so as not to offend you or anyone else. But even my attempt to be careful was not good enough! It is very frustrating! I did not "judge an entire religion!" If you saw judgment of all Islam in my words, that is an unjustifiable, even paranoid, reaction on your part.

Notice first that I intentionally avoided saying that the killing was sanctioned by the religion of Islam! Instead I said that a group of people who call themselves Muslims are involved. Therefore I recognized that they may be acting contrary to the tenets of their own religion! (I don't have any way of knowing if it is contrary.) In fact, I was hoping that your reply would be something like this: "Yes, John and Melissa, I have heard that some people who claim to be good Muslims have done this kind of killing of their countrymen who have converted to Christianity ... but those killings are completely unjustifiable and contrary to the Koran." Why could you not have said something helpful like that, Levent, instead of getting "bent out of shape" and drawing improper parallels to Catholic schoolgirls?

Notice secondly that I used the word "apparently," which indicates that I was not certain of what I was saying and I was not accusing anyone. The word "apparently" is related to "appearance" -- and we know that "appearances can be deceiving."

Notice thirdly that I expressed no idea whether this group of murderous people was a small or large group, and I had no idea which "branch" of Islam they considered themselves part of.

Therefore, Levent, I conclude that you did not read my words carefully enough, and this led you into an intemperate, defensive response.

Now, moving on to something else in your message ...

You stated: "There is no 'wing' in Islam that would do something like that. ... I looked in the Quran if there is anything of that nature where it says the family has to kill a Muslim girl if she marries a non-muslim and I haven't found it. I will also search Haddeths about this topic but it will take some time."

But, Levent, your statement is puzzling. You say that you had to look at the Koran, and that you still plan to look at the Hadith (sayings/actions of Muhammad -- a sort of "tradition" with authoritative interpretation of Koran). But if you have not fully investigated yet, how could you have make a flat-out statement that "no 'wing' in Islam would do something like that." Since Islam has no central point of religious unity -- no pope, no worldwide bishops' councils, etc. -- there is some splintering of the religion into "subdivisions," two major ones and some minor ones, each with its own private interpretation of the Koran, special rules to cover situations that are not explicitly mentioned in Koran and Hadith, etc..
Consequently, there really may be one or more groups of Muslims (perhaps radical nationalistic subgroups) that DO believe that Allah approves of killing converts to Christianity. Perhaps such "wings" exist, but you do not know about them yet. I am not saying that such a thing is certainly true, but I am saying that you should be more just and lenient toward us until there is 100% certainty that such wings do not exist.

Levent, you wrote: "So I can say that there is some kind of 'wing' of Christians or Catholics that are against interracial marriages."
Perhaps this will surprise you, but I do not react angrily to that statement. I know that when you say those words, what you actually mean (and should state more carefully) is this: "Within the 2 billion people who call themselves Christians, apparently there is some kind of "wing" [large? small? Protestant? Catholic? Orthodox?] that would forbid interracial marriages." YES, there is such a wing!
Do you see how that parallels what I wrote about a "wing" of people who call themselves Muslims? With over 30,000 non-Catholic denominations, including some that must have been started by KKK members, I have no doubt that is some "wing" of people who reject interracial marriages. But that does not make Christianity evil, just as the probable killing of converts by certain Muslims does not make Islam evil.

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), August 27, 2001.

I answer first John, and after that, Levent:
I said the following, John

you have very little choice but to condone your religion's unjust ways. It is the price of your faith. That's why I, for one would rather not enter into established cultural customs. Some are abhorent to westerners, even though other customs may be magnificent. I would rather talk of the faith-- a matter of why we believe either your prophet, or Our own Beloved Saviour. Let's leave the sins aside, and concentrate on God's Will, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the tenets of Islam in their most noble form.

This is an invitation to stop the finger-pointing, and discuss theologies from each point of view. I conceded first nobody really hopes to effect a conversion here; only God can do that.

Islam is a world religion, and I think even Levent will admit, he knows nothing about what goes on in Muslim societies outside of his own. You are asking him to explain why another sect somewhere can support what is obviously evil, like assassinations and terrorist activities. I'm sure he doesn't know. He falls back then, on a tit-for-tat; all those Christians doing opposite what God commands. If the discussion always comes back to this, it's pointless to continue.

Unless we're able to point to the truth of the Gospel, a sure indication we are God's elect; Islam, Buddhism, Atheism, all are viable alternatives. Unless God's grace is with us, all religions in the end are failures. It's up to us to show GOD is with us.

There is where I've attempted to impress on Levent our faiths differ. One has a Prophet; in the eyes of his faithful he's infallible.

We are blessed to realize God dwells with us; He makes His dwelling in our midst! We must try to show Muslims who Jesus Christ really is. Not historically; that's only the beginning. Today-- what Jesus is to us today!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), August 27, 2001.

Melissa Let me first say that I hope that everything works out for your friend. What her family is putting her through is a shame and a disgrace. What her family is doing has nothing to do with Islam. What it has to do with is the family's cultural pride. The family feels that this will make them look bad in the eyes of the community. It is not written anywhere in the Quran that a family can follow these action. This goes back to the days before the Quran was revealed, when baby girls where buried alive. This time is called the time of ignorance. Now you have people that call themselves Muslims but do not follow the Quran or the examples of Muhammed(pbuh). Islam is a Arabic word that means peace. These actions are not peaceful nor are they Islamic.

Peace

-- Larry (Salaam113@aol.com), August 27, 2001.

Also Melissa in the Quran it states "There is no compulsion in religion" (2:256). By her family trying force her to be a Muslim they are acting against Islam.

Peace

-- Larry (Salaam113@aol.com), August 27, 2001.

Eugune, I apolize if I stated that quote was from you and I am sorry if I lost composure but it is the fact that it is always the religion that becomes the issue. The point I wanted to make was that when non- muslim girl behaves in an improper manner the religion isn't the main focus of topic or disscussion to come up. In Islam people always want to dwell on that. That is why I put that link up becuase I feel that it explains the issue in very well.

Larry is correct that people have a tendancy to add there culture into these types of matters.

The reason why I said that I would look into the Hadeeths is because I am not a scholar and have the Quran memorized or know the Hadeeths by heart. Hadeeths are comiled in volumes and volumes. I can't claim to know every answer or know every answer and if there is a such a claim i would look into it.

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), August 27, 2001.

Levent

You must realize that people are still trying to fight the crusades

Peace

-- Larry (Salaam113@aol.com), August 27, 2001.

Jmj

I noticed that someone stated above, "Islam is a Arabic word that means peace."

Actually, "islam" does not mean "peace." The word for peace is "salaam." The word "islam" is partially derived from "salaam," but it does not mean "peace."

Islam means "submission," which helps us to see one of the contrasts between Christianity and Islam. Where we Christians do indeed wish to give up our own contrary wills to do the will of God, Jesus has taught us that we must desire to do it out of the love of a child and the love of a friend, not out of the fearful "submission" of a servant. Our heavenly Father and His Son and His Spirit are not tyrants ruling over people in chains. We are beloved sons and daughters who can call the Father, "Abba" -- "Daddy" -- and who can call Jesus "Brother," even though he is God.

[To support what I just said, I have taken the following from materials prepared by Muslims. I found similar comments in two other sources too:]
"'Islam' in Arabic means 'submission' and derives from a word meaning 'peace,' for it is in submitting to God's Will that human beings gain peace in their lives in this world and the hereafter."

God bless you.
John
PS: Larry, if you are going to continue to harbor in your heart, and express here openly, that poisonous attitude (the anti-Crusades foolishness), it is probably time for you to leave this forum. None of us Catholics wants to carry out a religious war in the 21st century. I think that we just want calmly to discuss religious doctrines here.

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), August 27, 2001.

John, that is the main difference between the two religions. In Islam we do fear the All-Mighty. On the same token, we do have the love in our heart as the Christians do. The Ultimate goal is to meet God.

Are we slaves in chains? Every act of good deed or bad deed will be questioned. We are insignificant in this world, meaning that everything happens because the Will of God. This life is temporary and we should be productive in this life but the next life is for an eternity. This world is not a punishment it is merely a test.

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), August 28, 2001.

Levent;
Catholics pray to God for mercy through His Son Jesus, who promised us eternal life. We fear only ''the loss of heaven and the pains of hell''. Catholic theology is completely based on the teaching of Christ; who taught us God is a loving Father. True love and respect for the Father is submission to His Will, not fear. I'm sure even Muslims love the Father, and give in to His Divine Will for this love.

Take the opposite side: a man that doesn't love God will hardly fear Him. Bad men do evil things and submit to no one, least of all a Person in heaven. To them, Islam is foolish, and love is also foolish. In our western society the lawless men are always fallen away from God and religion. In their own way, they make no ''submission'' except to a prison sentence. But they can be converted. Grace can reach them, from Jesus Christ, and turn their hearts away from sin.

Is a Muslim on the same safe ground? Without being judgmental, let me speculate. A Muslim that does evil; real evil, I don't mean the wrong food, or marrying outside his faith. A liar, and a traitor, who lives in HATE for a neighbor. This man, according to the Muslim faith still runs around thinking in his heart that he does no evil at all. If the neighbor is a Jew, and his hate is for an oppressor. He feels free to lie about the other. To inform on him, to kill him and bring down death on him. And still be a ''good'' man? How can this Muslim then repent? Even in death, he goes on thinking he's a friend of Allah, despite all the hate in his heart.

I hope you're going to show me in the Quraan a mention of mercy and forgiveness. God will have mercy on he who also shows mercy for his neighbor.

Of all the glorious words spoken by Jesus, here is when He most showed us God's love: ''If you do it for the least of my brethren, you do it for me.''

If I show no love or mercy for one whom I think is below me, then God will not have mercy on me. I'm not worthy, because I don't do as Jesus instructed, ''Do it for me.'' Because, keep in mind Jesus is speaking as God. God is telling me this. Submission is more than fear; it is love for God.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), August 28, 2001.

-- (_@_._), August 29, 2001.

Eugene, we do love God. The ultimate goal of a Muslim is to get into heaven and meet The-Creator, The Most-Merciful, God. Then what comes with heaven, is secondary. A person, who has no fear, has no limits or boundaries and is capable of doing anything. For example, if someone had no fear of the police (law) they would speed, run red lights, and commit heinous crimes, yet they love the police because it prevents “criminals” from harming them. We have free will and could commit any of the three easily, but there are consequences with those actions. It may be small/ large fine, time in prison or the death penalty but there are consequences.

Love and Fear can go together. If a child’s parent says, don’t do something the child will not commit the act because he fears he will be punished by his parents. If the child commits the act, than the parent will act accordingly. That doesn’t mean the parent doesn’t love the child anymore, it just means he is being punished. Or because the child is punished doesn’t mean the child doesn’t love his parents anymore. And in time the parent will forgive the child for the act. This fear is not of hate. It is out of love to show guidance to the correct path.

119. But verily thy Lord,- to those who do wrong in ignorance, but who thereafter repent and make amends,- thy Lord, after all this, is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. 16:119

You could ask any Muslim and say, are you going to Heaven? More than likely, he will say “Only Allah Knows”. I have not personally met a Muslim who says when I die, I will be in Paradise. Let’s say there are two people, One Muslim could pray 5x a day and still might not reach Paradise. The other guy is altruistic, has compassion for others around him, gives charity, but doesn’t pray, he may be the one getting into Paradise. Only Allah knows.

Eugene, I don’t have the right to say who is going to Heaven or Hell. I am not God. I don’t know how pure ones heart is. If I knew I was going to Heaven, I then would know the outcome of my future, which impossible.

Now, to answer your question about, “A Muslim that does evil; real evil, I don't mean the wrong food, or marrying outside his faith. A liar, and a traitor, who lives in HATE for a neighbor.”

A Muslim who lies, cheats, slanders knowingly, is he really a Muslim? If he follows the religion accordingly to the Quran and Sunna and understands what he reads without being deceived, than Satan has him fooled and his heart has blackened. He is probably living a life fool of false pretenses. Years-months-days from now, if he repents sincerely to Allah and knows what he has done was wrong, then Allah may forgive him because he is the Most- Compassionate and Most-Merciful. The bitterest enemies of the Prophet (pbuh) treated him like filth and slandered him name and oppressed the Muslims. If it had happened to us, we may have acted in retaliation. Yet, Prophet Muhammad forgave his enemies. I am not saying that the Prophet didn’t battle but it was as a last resort because they were in the brink of being eliminated and it was war. If I am incorrect in stating in this paragraph, May Allah forgive my sins. Maybe, Larry could fill in the details if I am incorrect in this synopsis.

Surah 42 39. And those who, when an oppressive wrong is inflicted on them, (are not cowed but) help and defend themselves. 40. The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah. for ((Allah)) loveth not those who do wrong. 41. But indeed if any do help and defend themselves after a wrong (done) to them, against such there is no cause of blame. 42. The blame is only against those who oppress men and wrong-doing and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice: for such there will be a penalty grievous. 43. But indeed if any show patience and forgive, that would truly be an exercise of courageous will and resolution in the conduct of affairs. Humans were created with intellect and reasoning. Humans could either achieve the highest of highs, (higher than Angels) or the lowest of lows. If we are treated badly, it is up to the individual to make that choice of forgiving or retaliation. If he has made the right or wrong choice, he will submit himself to Allah asking for his Mercy.

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), August 29, 2001.

Jmj

Hello, Levent. I noticed that you responded to me partly with these words:
"... [T]hat is the main difference between the two religions. In Islam we do fear the All-Mighty. On the same token, we do have the love in our heart as the Christians do."

This was extremely interesting to me. So that I do not forget to mention it, we Christians DO speak of "fearing" God. The New Testament tells us to "fear" Him, but we distinguish between two kinds of "fear." Yes, we are to have a "holy fear" (which is a "gift of the Holy Spirit" known as "fear of the Lord") -- that is, an awe and reverence at his greatness and majesty, given to us at Baptism. But Jesus does not want us to have the other kind of fear -- a constant, oppressive, abject fear of being punished with death or annihilation by his Father. We are to be motivated to do what is right NOT by fear, but by love and gratitude. This prompts me to ask you the following questions:
(1) Is the Muslim's "fear [of] the All-Mighty," which you mentioned, the same as our "fear of the Lord" (a calm awe and reverence), or is it (as we have been led to believe) the kind of fear that the New Testament tells us to reject: a relentless, oppressive, abject fear of being punished?
(2) Is the Muslim motivated to do what is right by abject fear or by love and gratitude?

We Christians have heard many times, Levent, from you and other Muslims, that you respect Jesus greatly as a prophet. What puzzles Eugene and me, though, is why you do not condemn him as a fool or a fraud! It seems to us that condemnation would be the honest thing for you to do. It would not be honest for a Muslim to praise Jesus, unless that Muslim rejects the New Testament as God's word. Please let me explain.

Eugene has explained elsewhere that Jesus, as recorded in the gospel, made clear that He is God. For this reason alone, unless you reject the New Testment, you should condemn Jesus as a liar or a lunatic, since you do not believe that He is divine. It simply makes no sense for you to respect him as a great prophet if he was so insane or so deceptive as to claim to be God (or to keep silent when others proclaimed him to be God).

But let us go a step further, so that I can add evidence to my argument. Here are some things that Jesus and his apostles tell us about fear in the New Testament. We take this seriously, as you can see reflected in the words Gene and have said about fear:
Jesus said, "Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom."
Many times, Jesus said, "Do not be afraid."
St. John, the apostle whom Jesus loved in a special way, passes on to us this message from Our Lord: "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love." (1 John 4:18)
And St. John, in his Apocalypse/Revelation, relates this vision he had of Jesus: "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, 'Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.'"

And so, in conclusion, I would say that, if a Muslim is governed by "fear [of] the All-Mighty," as you said, then you need to stop calling Jesus a great prophet, because he must have lied to us (or he was crazy and didn't realize how foolish his words were) when he and his apostles passed along the anti-fear message.

Of course, I don't REALLY want you to call Jesus a liar or a lunatic. If you want to call him a great prophet, that would be fine. However, calling him a great prophet would then require you to depart from Islam, because the things that Jesus said about Himself (being God) and about fear are in conflict with Islam's teachings.
And so I must ask you, Levent, which will it be? You cannot have BOTH (1) Islam and (2) Jesus as a great prophet. To take a respectable, logical position, please choose one or the other, but not both.

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), August 29, 2001.

Sorry to be so "bold."

-- (_@_._), August 29, 2001.

John,
We are leaving Levent and Larry with some food for thought. Both have seemed sincere to me, and if they don't realize the truth today about Jesus, it may come later. Without somebody to guide them to it, such as we've tried, they would go on indefinitely without pausing to think of the ''Prophet Jesus''. In our poor way, we've opened a door for these good men. Only God can persuade them to enter.

I also asked the question; is Jesus MAD? Is He lying? Or is He speaking the truth? I think at this point they can't just dismiss Jesus. They have to ask themselves the answer to the question. God will give them the light to see, if they pray. We must also pray. Our part is to speak truthfully without seeming to belittle their faith in Allah. In some ways the same as with Jews, who will have no part of a Trinity. It is really for God to help them see, not you or I.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), August 29, 2001.

Jmj

Yes, Gene. I did notice that you had wisely asked our Muslim friends that liar/lunatic/Lord question about Jesus -- over on the "companion" thread. But it seemed to me that the question did not evoke an answer from Larry or Levent. I can understand their reluctance. It is a tough problem to face.

Since that question is so crucial, so necessary for Muslims to answer straightforwardly, I felt that I had to bring it up again -- especially now that the subject of the N.T. teaching about fear has been added to the N.T. teaching about Christ's divinity. I trust that our friends have been thinking all of this over very carefully.

Rest assured that I have no intention of belittling anyone's faith, Gene, especially not faith in the one and only Supreme Being (God), whom Larry and Levent call Allah.

God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), August 29, 2001.

The term Islam

You posted "'Islam' in Arabic means 'submission' and derives from a word meaning 'peace,' for it is in submitting to God's Will that human beings gain peace in their lives in this world and the hereafter."

When you see the word "derives" it should actually say the root word is peace. However even if we use the term "derives" it still means the same thing. It's like a tree you have the root and from the roots grow the trunk, branches and the leaves. The root is peace and submitting is what derives from it. Allah's will is for man to be at peace. So the faith is designed for man to be at peace to submit to the peace.

Peace

-- Larry (Salaam113@aol.com), August 30, 2001.

Also John, my crusade comment to Levent was not aim at this board. It was aim at the press and the thoughts of the community at large. If a man goes to work an begins to shoot, no one says, a Christian man began shooting at work today. But if someone is reported to be a Muslim you can bet you last dollar that it will be mentioned. I do not mean to say that the first man should be noted as a Christian because that is not the teaching of Christ(pbuh). What I am saying is the same should be afforded to other religious faiths.

By the way I do not have any reluctances in answering Eugene question. I just do not want to hear how I am haboring bad thoughts about your faith. Or that I am trying to teach you your religion.

Peace

-- Larry (Salaam113@aol.com), August 30, 2001.

I will try and give an answer to the best of my knowledge tonight. I have the answer written on paper but what good does that do. I have to take come of some business before hand.

Larry- exactly. If I were to commit a crime today. Tomorrows headline will say, An American-Muslim committed such and such or A Muslim committed such and such. Even though if i was born into the religion and didn't act like a "Muslim" it still would say that.

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), August 30, 2001.

Larry,

It's not totally one sided, if you robbed a liquor store no one would mention your faith, but if you blew up a temple or something, I agree the press would shout it out pretty quickly. I think they believe it "goes to motive" as it were.

Sometimes Christians get the same treatment in America, BTW. Next time someone commits an act of violence in front of an abortion clinic (which I am NOT endorsing) watch and see the media shout about the "radical Christian"! (Again, they see it as their motive) I've never heard of a Muslim being defamed in this way in front of an abortion clinic at least, but I do understand your frustration.

Also, on the world stage, I see the Taliban will have a trial for the people they imprisoned for attempting to "spread Christianity". That at least doesn't happen here to Muslims.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), August 30, 2001.

To be thorough, here's a LINK to the story on the Taliban. That's one place that won't make my vacation top 10 list, that's for sure.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), August 30, 2001.

This is a good question that deserves thought and reasoning. We respect Jesus (pbuh) for many reasons, as well as other Prophets. The Prophets main objective was to spread the word of God. We believe the birth of Jesus was a miracle and he is the Son of Mary, who we has a high stature in Islam. We believe in the New Testament (injil), the Gospels that were revealed to Jesus, not the bible, that was written 500 or so years later but I don’t want to get into that.

We Love God for the environment he has created. The mountains, oceans, trees, fruits, flowers. The intellect and reasoning he has given us. We are merely servants of Allah. It isn’t the Slave/Master relationship that we know of today. The Master is over- bearing, ruthless, and oppressive. It is the type of relationship where he controls everything in this world and the next. Yet, he is Powerful and Compassionate and we ask him for guidance and strength. We pray 5x day for the spiritual benefit, for the Love of Allah. A sincere and devout Muslim constantly thinks of Allah in every action. You will hear Muslims say before they eat or drink, “In the Name of Allah” or when something good or bad happens to the person “All Praise Allah” and for Future plans “If God willing”.

2. Giving charity to a Muslim or a Non-Muslim is a high reward if it is done for the sake of Pleasing and Loving Allah as well as for the love of humanity. For the sake of argument I will quote from the Bible. To encourage his followers, Jesus said, “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more….Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you in hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him” (Luke 12:4-5). Does this passage refer to physical fear that we should literally tremble and shiver in God’s presence? No, certainly not. To honor God, to trust him.

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), August 30, 2001.

Frank, I thought this country was based on religious freedom. Isn't that how this whole country started because of persecution in England for religious reasons? This is what we have been doing for the past month. You say that than I come back and make two statements about Christianity.

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), August 30, 2001.

Frank

Is the Christian that is blowing up the abortion clinic acting in an Christian way. The bibles that I have read do not speak of blowing things up. What's going on with the Christian is not Islamic. If you look back in history you will see that during the time of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together in harmony under Islamic rule. It is written in the Quran that Allah will be the judge as to who is right or wrong. What is most important is who is the most pious. If you are Christian, how do you live according to the Christian faith.

Peace

-- Larry (Salaam@aol.com), August 30, 2001.

God in heaven must look down on us in our blindness; ''WHO'' is without sin of these ''believers''? Each claims he believes in me (Allah, God, Jesus). Each defends his turf by accusing the other of atrocities and hypocrisy.

A Christian is accused of racism and bombing the clinics of abortionists. The Christian says how can you be a good Muslim, if Muslims wrap themselves in explosives and explode in the marketplace; or Jews shoot innocent children? Is anybody without sin? How could a religion be of God, if it lets us get away with hate and destruction?

All are guilty in God's eyes. We have no excuses! Now-- is a people in grave SIN able to raise itself up to God, and gain salvation, by acts of charity and prayer five times daily? Are we in God's grace for believing a Quraan, or for denouncing the other people who didn't accept Christ? The Quraan doesn't help Muslims give up hate and vengeance. In a Christian society, abortion clinics kill the unborn by the hundreds of thousands. Is nobody at all just? Don't we all belong in hell?

I only want to know --is Muhammad the Saviour of all Muslims in mortal sin? Are the sins committed by Muslims in anger and for nationalism going to be forgiven by Allah?

Are the evils done in Christian (western) society, and in Israel-- the barbarous bombing of lesser countries, the licence of sex, drugs and abortion, a materialistic Godless culture-- all this is forgiven? Absolutely NOT!

One way only is open to all of us for our salvation. God will only forgive the sins of Christians and Muslims and Jews for the sake of His Son, Jesus Christ. The Jew and the Muslim and the Christian are all doomed to hell and damnation; unless Jesus Christ saves them. Muhammad won't save anybody, he isn't a Saviour. No Jewish Messiah is coming; they missed Jesus the first time and don't know it. He isn't coming to bring them victory any more. All they have now is their weapons and money. Jesus Christ is our only hope, and the only Saviour. I want to ask my friends Levent and larry-- How are you going to be saved from your own sins and the sins of your people? How is my own salvation, John's and Frank's salvation to come? We depend on Him,/i>; Jesus Christ. We pray that all Muslims should someday come to Jesus; and right now, pray for the Divine forgiveness of Allah, forgiveness through His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. We all have much to ask forgiveness of. We all live in sin, and only Jesus is without sin. Only He can obtain our forgiveness from Allah.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), August 31, 2001.

Prophet Muhammed is not responsible for our sins. Nor, is he our savior that he died for our sins. My sins are my sins and I am accountable for these sins, no one else. God is the Most-Forging and Most-Merciful. If I commit a sin and repent, it is God that will forgive me. If I keep committing the sin and repenting, it is still up to God if he will forgive me. There are very sincere people out there that may achieve enternal happiness. Unfortunatly, society seems like it is getting worse than it was 50 years ago.

That is why this world, this life is merely a test. A test to you see if you have enough love in your heart to obey God and make it into paradise. Unfortantely, not ever one will make it to Heaven. God created us as the highest of all forms. Higher than animals, jinns, and Angels becuase we have the ability to choose our own destiny. We know what is right and what is wrong. If we follow and live by the right path, in the next life we could be ranked higher than an Angel. If we live a sinful life, we will be the lowest of lows.

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), August 31, 2001.

Your repentence is necessary, of course, but only Jesus has the words of eternal life. He is the way to the Father, and our sins are forgiven for His sake, not because of our merits. We merit nothing in the eyes of God. Only His Son is innocent and He gave His life that we should live. In our baptism we become ONE with Christ, and this makes us worthy in God's sight.

Christ hasn't deceived anyone, He told us each man will receive according to his works. So, you have that half the equation right. But no man is able to cleanse himself of sin. The sin is imputed forever unless God Himself has washed it away. The blood of Our Holy Saviour washes all sin away. Even good men who live outside His fold are saved indirectly by His blood.

He is indeed merciful; and He extends His mercy at will to those who try to live in virtue. Without Jesus, though, there would be no mercy. He alone makes it available. This is the truth, Larry and Levent. It is revealed by all the Prophets of Old and Jesus fulfills all their many prophesies. God be with you and bring you to His Son, as your good hearts please Him. Peace!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), August 31, 2001.

-- (_@_._), August 31, 2001.

How many son does G-d have?

Jacob is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22. Solomon is God's son "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14. Ephraim is God's firstborn: "for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?). Adam is the son of God "Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38. Common people (you and me) are the sons of God: "Ye are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" Romans 8:14. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12. "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15. "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: ... now are we the sons of God" 1 John 3:1-2. "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7. "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 2:1. "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 1:6. "when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men," Genesis 6:4. "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair" Genesis 6:2

-- Larry (Salaam113@aol.com), August 31, 2001.

Larry, --You've taken lots of pain to quote all these passages and texts. They are all correct on a figurative level. We are all sons of God, who is the Father of all creation. He created us, and we became His own.

Christ is not a created Son. Jesus Christ is equal to, co-existent with the Almighty Father from all ages. He is without beginning and without end. He is God's only-BEGOTTEN Son. The Father Almighty personally stated it to the world, saying, ''This is my beloved Son.'' Jesus said clearly, ''I and the Father are ONE.'' He stated clearly He has existed with his Father before the existence of the world.

All is clear in the Holy Scriptures. You won't accept them, but I do. All Catholics and most Christian non-Catholics do. He said it-- I believe it, and that settles it.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), August 31, 2001.

Eugene, we do agree that God will be the Judge of Judgment Day. Don’t take what I am about to say out of context. As I stated in an earlier post we believe in the NT (injil) the gospels that were reveled by God to Jesus. We don’t believe in the Bible that was written 500 years later. I have a question. Where can I find the original Bible? I am bilingual and one day I was listening to Turkish song and the words were moving. I tried to translate the song to my friend in English and song lost its entire meaning in English. The passion, the analogies, and melody were lost. The words when they were translated were “corny”. In Turkish, it was moving. The same goes with the Books. When you translate from one language to another it is difficult to keep that level of intensity without disrupting the communication. Imagine if you were to translate it from English to German, your losing more of the intensity. For example, take the word ‘Master’. The perception and what we know of the word Master probably could have had a different meaning 1500 years ago especially if the word is translated. I once read that translations are necessary to spread the word of God and for spiritual enrichment but not for arriving at personal conclusions.

Didn’t Prophet Moses say in Deuteronomy 31:25-29 that the Law will be tampered with and corrupted. The uniqueness of the Quran states that Allah will protect the Quran from being tampered with. If you were to come to my house and look at my Quran. Then go to Larry’s house and look at his Quran, despite some slight differences in the style of the writing. The Qurans will be identical in Arabic. If you go to Istanbul where a copy of the original Quran is, it will be identical to ours. Even though, I read the English to understand Quran and gain some spiratual knowledge, from what I have heard and read from people who read and understand Arabic, that it is a rich language. A language that with one sentence, it would take 3 or 4 sentences to match in English.

Something that non-Muslims don’t understand is that during the ‘Golden Age’ of Islam. The Muslims went to great lengths in don’t letting the Quran becoming contaminated. If there were a false verse or page they would burn it. Islam could have easily used the printing press to publish the Quran and spread the word. They were afraid that the Quran could easily be corrupted because of this tool.

My two questions are- Original copy of the Bible? Do you follow the Laws from the OT or is it strictly the NT?

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), August 31, 2001.

One more question. Why would a man from a simple tribe in Arabia. Who never lied, was the most respected person in his own tribe and other tribes (before he recieved the revelations) than one day in his 40's come down from the mounatins and say he saw an Angel. Then til the time of his death keep saying that he was a Prophet. Endure so many difficulties and so many sacrifices. Then make prophecies that were accurate. (tells his daughter, while about to die that she will be the next one to die in the family). Lucky guess? Maybe. How many times can a person guess right? How can he then "make up" verses that don't contradict science. A simple man that lives in the desert. Why would he say in the Quran that Jesus didn't die on the Cross. If it is a made-up religion, why would it effect him if he did or didn't. How could an uneducated man discuss about Astronomy, Geology, and Biology? Finally, why would he preach if there was no benefit for him. He didn't say worship me. If you ever go into a Muslim house, you will not see, images or Icons of the Prophet. You may only see the the writing of his name in Arabic. If he was in this religion for himself. Wouldn't he say pray to me.

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), August 31, 2001.

"And unto Him belongs whosoever is in the heavens and the earth and those who dwell in His presence do not scorn to worship Him nor do they weary. They glorify Him night and day; They flag not. Or have they chosen gods from the earth who raise the dead If there were therein gods besides Allah then verily both (the heavens and the earth) would have gone to ruin. Glorified be Allah, the Lord of the Throne from all they ascribe (unto Him). He is not questioned as to that which He does, but they will be questioned. Or have they chosen other gods besides Him, say: Bring your proof (of their godhead), this is the reminder of those with me and those before me, but most of them know not the truth so they are averse (to it). And we sent no messenger before you but we inspired him (saying): There is no god save Me (Allah) so worship Me. And they say: The Compassionate has taken unto himself a son. Nay! but (they) are but honored servants. They speak not until He has spoken and they obey His command. He knows what is before them and what is behind them and they cannot intercede except for those whom He accepts and they quake for awe of Him. And whosoever among them says: I am a god other than Allah, the same shall We reward with Hell. Thus do We reward the wrong doers."

The Qur'an, Al-Anbia(21):19-29

"And the angles said 'O Mary, Allah gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him, his name is Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, High honored in this world and the next, of those near stationed to Allah."

The noble Qur'an, A'al-Umran(3):40.

We as Muslims do not differ with Christians in the fact that Jesus (pbuh) was indeed born miraculously without a human father. Muslims only differ with Christians in the Christian's claim that Jesus (pbuh) must have a father. Trinitarians believe that if he has no human father then his father must be God. Muslims believe that he had no father whatsoever, and this was the essence of his miraculous birth.

"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam, he created him from dust, then said to him: 'Be' and he was"

The noble Qur'an, A'al-Umran(3):59.

"They say: Allah has taken a son. Glorified be He! He has no needs! His is all that is in the heavens and that is in the earth. You have no warrant for this, do you say regarding Allah that which you know not?"

The noble Qur'an, Yunus(10):68

"The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. They both used to eat (earthly) food. See how we make the signs clear for them, then see how they are deluded!"

The noble Qur'an, Al-Maidah (5):75.

"And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

John 17:3.

Notice the above words of the Bible: "YOU the ONLY true God." Most Christians always manage to see a hidden abstract meaning for the verses of the Bible. Even when they read the above verse they always manage to understand something totally different than that which they are reading. They always interpret the word "you" to be "we," and thus, understand the above verse to say "WE the only true god." Jesus (pbuh) is obviously talking to a distinctly different entity than himself and telling that entity that He ALONE is the only true God. Is Jesus (pbuh) incapable of saying "I the only true God" or "We the only true God" if that is what he meant? Can we see the difference?

Mr. Tom Harpur says in the preface to his book:

"The most significant development since 1986 in this regard has been the discovery of the title "Son of God" in one of the Qumran papyri (Dead Sea Scrolls) used in relation to a person other than Jesus.....this simply reinforces the argument made there that to be called the Son of God in a Jewish setting in the first century is not by any means the same as being identical with God Himself."

For Christ's Sake, pp. xii.

The Qur'an clearly states in no uncertain terms that God "created" Jesus. Let us quote from the unbiased Webster's dictionary as to what is "implied" by the word "begotten": "To procreate as the father, sire, to produce as an effect or an outgrowth." Muslims feel such claims with regard to God Almighty are an abomination.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

-- Larry (Salaam113@aol.com), August 31, 2001.

The Quraan can say whatever you wish, it is not the word of God. The Prophet is a prophet in your eyes only. If the Quraan says Jesus was created, the Quraan in effect proves itself a false book.

It's regrettable I have to put it so bluntly, Larry. You have no scruples about saying the Son of God is a fraud, or the Word of God, New Testament is corrupt. Am I under a reverse obligation to your ''holy'' book?

Is the prophet Muhammad so wonderful he can call Jesus Christ whatever he pleases, based on his opinion that the Christian Bible was tampered with? That's the opinion of Muhammad, not God the Father Almighty's.

In addition to all her holy writings, our Church is blessed with a Sacred Tradition reaching back to the earliest days of the Christian faith. You would also have to say --and prove-- that Tradition was also changed. And, for what???

All in order to gain legitimacy for a man who came about 700 years after Christ! A legitmacy you will move heaven and earth to support, but which is missing the most important part-- God's infallible word. We have it, Muslims have the Quraan. It is far from an infallible document. I'm sorry; the truth is the truth. Jesus Christ is the Son of the Almighty; His only-begotten Eternal Son. Period.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), August 31, 2001.

My two questions are- Where is the original copy of the Bible? Do you follow the Laws from the OT or is it strictly the NT or both?

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), September 01, 2001.

Dear Levent,
Our faith teaches us that both the Testaments are the True Word of God. It is very apparent that Christ is the focus of the New Testament. His Almighty Father is given deference by Jesus constantly throughout the NT, however, right to the very end. It is only what we could expect of the Eternal Son. Even so, He is God in the second Person, equal in dignity and divinity.

Obviously, Jesus put an end to the sacrifices of the Temple. We have in their place the sublime and miraculous presence of His own Body and Blood as our New Testament offering to the Father. In this sacrament is fulfilled what the Old Testament was meant to pre-figure. You have repeated prophesies in the OT pointing to a New Covenant between God and His people; not the least of which are the clear references to Israel (a figure of Jesus) in future becoming a ''Light unto the Gentiles.'' This was very far from what the ordinary Israelite understood the Messias would be. Jesus Christ finally clarified His kingdom was not of this world.

The Old Testament commandments of God have not been changed or abrogated. We must obey them, and all that is holy in the Law of Moses. But many others, such as ''an eye for an eye,'' divorce, dietary restrictions, etc., have passed with the coming of the New Testament, which has for its central teaching the words of Jesus Christ. He is the true and complete revelation of God to the world. Nothing after Christ can reveal more about God and His Divine Will. Jesus said it on the cross, at the moment of His death: ''It is finished.''

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 01, 2001.

Jmj

Dear Larry,

Please try to do your own work and express your own thoughts without plagiarizing from anti-Christian Internet sites. Frank has already pointed out that business involving the Encyclopedia (on the other thread). Now I see that, in your final post of August 31, you shamelessly copied a large block of material without giving credit to the author. You made it seem that you yourself had written the text (except for quotations). Here is one of several Internet sites that has the text that you plagiarized. (Oh, and by the way, there are OTHER Internet sites that analyze and refute the stuff that you copied!)

You ought to be ashamed of yourself, Larry, pretending to be learned. If you don't know what to say, either depart permanently, keep silent, or quote from a reliable source -- IDENTIFYING that source.

Now please, let us get back to a respectable discussion.

By the way, I started this thread, with the topic, "Catholicism and Islam -- interreligious dialogue." In other words, I wanted the topic to be ABOUT dialogue. I did not want it to BE the actual dialog -- though that is what it has become. I think that it would be helpful to us and to future readers here if we were to have separate threads for the various topics that we are discussing. I plan to illustrate to you what I mean, later today. Meanwhile, please carry on here and in the other thread ("Similarities between Christianity and Islam"), which obviously has also gone off its original topic.

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), September 01, 2001.

Jmj

Friends,
On this and the other thread to which we have been contributing lately (about Catholicism and Islam), I noticed that two specific and very important topics have arisen again and again. Because these topics were getting intertwined with each other and with some minor topics, and because I thought that they deserved to be analyzed by us on their own, I just opened a new thread for each of the two topics. To these I suggest that you contribute. I would suggest also that you reserve the two original threads for discussing the topics for which they were originally established (similarities between our faiths ... and interreligious dialogue).

To set up the two new threads, I carefully read through this and the other original thread, "sifted out" many key quotations from various contributors, and copied them into one large "start-up" message for each new thread. I suggest that you take the time to re-read all these quotations on the new threads and let them be springboards to continuing the conversations/debates there.

The first new thread is called:
The nature(s) of Jesus.
Catholicism says "Jesus is divine and human. God is His Father."
Islam says "Jesus was human, a prophet. He had no father. He is not divine."
This thread can be found here.

The second new thread is called:
Catholicism says "Divine revelation = Bible + Sacred Tradition, interpreted by Magisterium (but not Koran)."
Islam says "Divine revelation = Koran + Bible (as originally written) [+ Haddith? (Muhammad's sayings/tradition)]
This thread can be found here.

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), September 02, 2001.

Frank, I thought this country was based on religious freedom. Isn't that how this whole country started because of persecution in England for religious reasons?

Levent,

Yes, that was the case here 200 YEARS ago, and to put it in the correct cultural context, at that time slavery was still legal, and people were killed as witches. The events with the Taliban are happening TODAY, when in my society this behavior is considered grossly immoral.

Larry,

Is the Christian that is blowing up the abortion clinic acting in an Christian way.

No. No, and the Catholic Church does not support this. But, the Taliban has the punishment for converting from Islam to Christianity to be DEATH! Have they been "excommunicated" from Muslim society as traitors to God's word, or is there a "loophole" in Islam that makes murder acceptable as long as it's done to the right people?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), September 02, 2001.

Frank Slavery legal? Right now in Taliban it is against the law to teach Christianity, the punishment is death. Does that make it correct because it is in the proper cultural context. Of course not. Once again I will tell you that, what is going on there is not Islamic. It is their country and they make the rules. That doesn't make it right. Has it been spoken out against, truthfully I do not know. Did other countries speak out against slavery, yes. Did it make any difference here, no. But let's not go that far back. In the 60's people were lynch, I have a picture in a book where a man is being lynch with a mob of people standing around watching. Did anyone stop it? No, there are small kids standing around and people are having a picnic. Morally wrong, yes. Did anyone stop it, no. These people considered themselves to be Christians, were they "excommunicated"? The kkk set crosses on fire, is that Christianity? Does that mean Constatine was the first klansman? ( By the way the early Christians used the symbol of the fish. Jesus(pbuh) was known as a fisher of men. He was also born during what is known as the piscean era) What I'm trying to say here is this. I have no controll over how a man or a country follows what they perchieve to be Islam. What I am decussing with you is what is actually in the bible and how the bible was put together. Constantine was a pagan and the cross is a pagan symbol. Now Jesus(pbuh) was a not to blame with what is written in it. The blame is with the men that put it together.

Peace

-- Larry (Salaam113@aol.com), September 06, 2001.

John

I find it funny that you accuse me of PLAGIARISM. I was only post what I already knew and thought that it would be better to show you some sites saying the same. I am not trying to come off as a learned man. I do not know any of you here and can careless what you think of me. Now back to plagiarism, I will agree that one should do his own work. So if the bible is G-ds work and not the work of man, can you explain this. Please don't skip over it.

2 Kings 19 1 And it came to pass, when king Hezekiah heard it, that he rent his clothes, and covered himself with sackcloth, and went into the house of the LORD. 2 And he sent Eliakim, which was over the household, and Shebna the scribe, and the elders of the priests, covered with sackcloth, to Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz. 3 And they said unto him, Thus saith Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and blasphemy; for the children are come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring forth. 4 It may be the LORD thy God will hear all the words of Rabshakeh, whom the king of Assyria his master hath sent to reproach the living God; and will reprove the words which the LORD thy God hath heard: wherefore lift up thy prayer for the remnant that are left. 5 So the servants of king Hezekiah came to Isaiah. 6 And Isaiah said unto them, Thus shall ye say to your master, Thus saith the LORD, Be not afraid of the words which thou hast heard, with which the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed me. 7 Behold, I will send a blast upon him, and he shall hear a rumour, and shall return to his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land. 8 So Rabshakeh returned, and found the king of Assyria warring against Libnah: for he had heard that he was departed from Lachish. 9 And when he heard say of Tirhakah king of Ethiopia, Behold, he is come out to fight against thee: he sent messengers again unto Hezekiah, saying, 10 Thus shall ye speak to Hezekiah king of Judah, saying, Let not thy God in whom thou trustest deceive thee, saying, Jerusalem shall not be delivered into the hand of the king of Assyria. 11 Behold, thou hast heard what the kings of Assyria have done to all lands, by destroying them utterly: and shalt thou be delivered? 12 Have the gods of the nations delivered them which my fathers have destroyed; as Gozan, and Haran, and Rezeph, and the children of Eden which were in Thelasar? 13 Where is the king of Hamath, and the king of Arpad, and the king of the city of Sepharvaim, of Hena, and Ivah? 14 And Hezekiah received the letter of the hand of the messengers, and read it: and Hezekiah went up into the house of the LORD, and spread it before the LORD. 15 And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth. 16 LORD, bow down thine ear, and hear: open, LORD, thine eyes, and see: and hear the words of Sennacherib, which hath sent him to reproach the living God. 17 Of a truth, LORD, the kings of Assyria have destroyed the nations and their lands, 18 And have cast their gods into the fire: for they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone: therefore they have destroyed them. 19 Now therefore, O LORD our God, I beseech thee, save thou us out of his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD God, even thou only. 20 Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent to Hezekiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, That which thou hast prayed to me against Sennacherib king of Assyria I have heard. 21 This is the word that the LORD hath spoken concerning him; The virgin the daughter of Zion hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee. 22 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel. 23 By thy messengers thou hast reproached the LORD, and hast said, With the multitude of my chariots I am come up to the height of the mountains, to the sides of Lebanon, and will cut down the tall cedar trees thereof, and the choice fir trees thereof: and I will enter into the lodgings of his borders, and into the forest of his Carmel. 24 I have digged and drunk strange waters, and with the sole of my feet have I dried up all the rivers of besieged places. 25 Hast thou not heard long ago how I have done it, and of ancient times that I have formed it? now have I brought it to pass, that thou shouldest be to lay waste fenced cities into ruinous heaps. 26 Therefore their inhabitants were of small power, they were dismayed and confounded; they were as the grass of the field, and as the green herb, as the grass on the house tops, and as corn blasted before it be grown up. 27 But I know thy abode, and thy going out, and thy coming in, and thy rage against me. 28 Because thy rage against me and thy tumult is come up into mine ears, therefore I will put my hook in thy nose, and my bridle in thy lips, and I will turn thee back by the way by which thou camest. 29 And this shall be a sign unto thee, Ye shall eat this year such things as grow of themselves, and in the second year that which springeth of the same; and in the third year sow ye, and reap, and plant vineyards, and eat the fruits thereof. 30 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall yet again take root downward, and bear fruit upward. 31 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall do this. 32 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the king of Assyria, He shall not come into this city, nor shoot an arrow there, nor come before it with shield, nor cast a bank against it. 33 By the way that he came, by the same shall he return, and shall not come into this city, saith the LORD. 34 For I will defend this city, to save it, for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake. 35 And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses. 36 So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed, and went and returned, and dwelt at Nineveh. 37 And it came to pass, as he was worshipping in the house of Nisroch his god, that Adrammelech and Sharezer his sons smote him with the sword: and they escaped into the land of Armenia. And Esarhaddon his son reigned in his stead.

Isaiah 37 1 And it came to pass, when king Hezekiah heard it, that he rent his clothes, and covered himself with sackcloth, and went into the house of the LORD. 2 And he sent Eliakim, who was over the household, and Shebna the scribe, and the elders of the priests covered with sackcloth, unto Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz. 3 And they said unto him, Thus saith Hezekiah, This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and of blasphemy: for the children are come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring forth. 4 It may be the LORD thy God will hear the words of Rabshakeh, whom the king of Assyria his master hath sent to reproach the living God, and will reprove the words which the LORD thy God hath heard: wherefore lift up thy prayer for the remnant that is left. 5 So the servants of king Hezekiah came to Isaiah. 6 And Isaiah said unto them, Thus shall ye say unto your master, Thus saith the LORD, Be not afraid of the words that thou hast heard, wherewith the servants of the king of Assyria have blasphemed me. 7 Behold, I will send a blast upon him, and he shall hear a rumour, and return to his own land; and I will cause him to fall by the sword in his own land. 8 So Rabshakeh returned, and found the king of Assyria warring against Libnah: for he had heard that he was departed from Lachish. 9 And he heard say concerning Tirhakah king of Ethiopia, He is come forth to make war with thee. And when he heard it, he sent messengers to Hezekiah, saying, 10 Thus shall ye speak to Hezekiah king of Judah, saying, Let not thy God, in whom thou trustest, deceive thee, saying, Jerusalem shall not be given into the hand of the king of Assyria. 11 Behold, thou hast heard what the kings of Assyria have done to all lands by destroying them utterly; and shalt thou be delivered? 12 Have the gods of the nations delivered them which my fathers have destroyed, as Gozan, and Haran, and Rezeph, and the children of Eden which were in Telassar? 13 Where is the king of Hamath, and the king of Arphad, and the king of the city of Sepharvaim, Hena, and Ivah? 14 And Hezekiah received the letter from the hand of the messengers, and read it: and Hezekiah went up unto the house of the LORD, and spread it before the LORD. 15 And Hezekiah prayed unto the LORD, saying, 16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth. 17 Incline thine ear, O LORD, and hear; open thine eyes, O LORD, and see: and hear all the words of Sennacherib, which hath sent to reproach the living God. 18 Of a truth, LORD, the kings of Assyria have laid waste all the nations, and their countries, 19 And have cast their gods into the fire: for they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone: therefore they have destroyed them. 20 Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only. 21 Then Isaiah the son of Amoz sent unto Hezekiah, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Whereas thou hast prayed to me against Sennacherib king of Assyria: 22 This is the word which the LORD hath spoken concerning him; The virgin, the daughter of Zion, hath despised thee, and laughed thee to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem hath shaken her head at thee. 23 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel. 24 By thy servants hast thou reproached the Lord, and hast said, By the multitude of my chariots am I come up to the height of the mountains, to the sides of Lebanon; and I will cut down the tall cedars thereof, and the choice fir trees thereof: and I will enter into the height of his border, and the forest of his Carmel. 25 I have digged, and drunk water; and with the sole of my feet have I dried up all the rivers of the besieged places. 26 Hast thou not heard long ago, how I have done it; and of ancient times, that I have formed it? now have I brought it to pass, that thou shouldest be to lay waste defenced cities into ruinous heaps. 27 Therefore their inhabitants were of small power, they were dismayed and confounded: they were as the grass of the field, and as the green herb, as the grass on the housetops, and as corn blasted before it be grown up. 28 But I know thy abode, and thy going out, and thy coming in, and thy rage against me. 29 Because thy rage against me, and thy tumult, is come up into mine ears, therefore will I put my hook in thy nose, and my bridle in thy lips, and I will turn thee back by the way by which thou camest. 30 And this shall be a sign unto thee, Ye shall eat this year such as groweth of itself; and the second year that which springeth of the same: and in the third year sow ye, and reap, and plant vineyards, and eat the fruit thereof. 31 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward: 32 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall do this. 33 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the king of Assyria, He shall not come into this city, nor shoot an arrow there, nor come before it with shields, nor cast a bank against it. 34 By the way that he came, by the same shall he return, and shall not come into this city, saith the LORD. 35 For I will defend this city to save it for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake. 36 Then the angel of the LORD went forth, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses. 37 So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed, and went and returned, and dwelt at Nineveh. 38 And it came to pass, as he was worshipping in the house of Nisroch his god, that Adrammelech and Sharezer his sons smote him with the sword; and they escaped into the land of Armenia: and Esarhaddon his son reigned in his stead.

-- Larry (Salaam113@aol.com), September 06, 2001.

Good grief, man!
What is the point?
Why these huge quotations form the Bible, Larry?

You completely missed my point about plagiarism.
We don't mind if you copy helpful passages from the Bible, from the Koran, or from Islamic sites on the Internet, etc..
BUT ... the point is that when you copy non-scriptural text, you should identify your source, for two reasons:
(1) So that you would give the author honest credit (sometimes required by copyright law), and
(2) So that you would not seem to be pretending to us that you are more of an expert than you really are.

When you did not give credit to an author, we wrongly assumed that you wrote those words -- until I investigated more deeply. I am simply asking you for honesty.

God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), September 06, 2001.

John

You accused me of trying to take credit for the work that someone else did. Eugene didn't see it as plagiarism, he saw it for what it was.

Larry, --You've taken lots of pain to quote all these passages and texts.

Now, are you going to answer the question at hand. I have posted II Kings 19 and Isaiah 37. Since you have problems with plagiarism explain this. You say G-d wrote the bible, are you saying G-ds has a problem with original thought.

-- Larry (Salaam113@aol.com), September 06, 2001.

Jmj

Larry, you are not able to fool me, so please stop trying.

When I complained about your plagiarism, I was referring to your post of August 31, in which you started with a quotation from Koran 21 (Al-Anbia) ["And unto Him ...]. Eugene and I did not complain about the ATTRIBUTED quotations in that message of yours -- that is, where there were references to Koranic suras, the Gospel according to St. John, and the Harpur book. No. Those are OK. However, BETWEEN those quotations are the plagiarized thoughts of some other author, which I found at various sites on the Internet. You wrongly made them seem to be your own. Here is just one example of something that you pretended to have written yourself:
"We as Muslims do not differ with Christians in the fact that Jesus (pbuh) was indeed born miraculously without a human father. Muslims only differ with Christians in the Christian's claim that Jesus (pbuh) must have a father. Trinitarians believe that if he has no human father then his father must be God. Muslims believe that he had no father whatsoever, and this was the essence of his miraculous birth."

So please get past this error, Larry, and amend your ways in the future.

Now, in my last post, I asked you, "What is the point? Why these huge quotations from the Bible?" You still have not explained. I cannot understand what you have now stated -- that is, "I have posted II Kings 19 and Isaiah 37. Since you have problems with plagiarism explain this. You say G-d wrote the bible, are you saying G-ds has a problem with original thought."
I'm sorry, but your question does not make sense to me. Maybe it is a language problem, since English is not your mother tongue. Can you try to express your question using different phrases? But before you do, let me just explain something -- which may actually clarify the whole thing for you.

Contrary to what you just claimed, I never said that "God wrote the Bible." Why did you put those words in my mouth? What Catholic Christians say (and what Jews and Muslims should be able to agree to) is the following, which is taken from one of the documents of Vatican II:

"Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles ... holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself. In composing the sacred books, God chose men, and, while employed by Him, they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted. Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation" [Dei Verbum #11].

[The authorship of the Bible has nothing to do with plagiarism. God intentionally helped the sacred authors to express His holy thoughts. That is totally different from you copying someone else's religous analysis and posting it here, without attribution, as though you had written it yourself.]

God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), September 06, 2001.

Dear Larry:
One way to clear the air is forget all about ''plagiarism'' and copying and long quotations from the Old Testament. In our best discussion what we attempted was the sincere appreciation of each other's faith. For some time, we got close to communicating.

It was when YOU argued that it was no use to document and prove the exact reasons we are faithful to the Christian revelation-- (because you would not recognise the validity of our Scriptures--) that a sincere dialogue became impossible. You maintain a true definition of God's Word is not in the Catholic Church, because you think the Bible is not telling the truth.

That means one thing to me: you aren't able to contradict the words of Jesus Christ as they are written. They have you against the wall; they force you to decide; is it true He is God, or is Muhammad telling me the truth about Him? Do I accept the word of my own Prophet, or am I turning my back on the Son of God, by following Muhammad?

It's all right there, Larry. Either Muhammad is the one who leads you to Allah (God)-- or Muhammad is separating you from the Son of God who is Jesus Christ. In this question you are deciding the eternal life you will deserve.

Let me only say, as a way of warning you. Muslims might believe the Holy Bible is a false Bible; and maybe they aren't aware of what is written there about a false prophet who will come and conquer the whole world; it's prophesied in the New Testament. This is Anti-Christ. If Muhammad conquers the whole world (as you may believe already) then pay attention to what he teaches. It is written the Anti-Christ will deny the Father and the Son. By telling you and all Muslims the New Testament cannot be trusted, Muhammad has denied the Father, and he denies the Son, Jesus Christ. It may not matter to you. But I sincerely hope you haven't been completely brainwashed. I continue to pray for your liberation from a false religion. Jesus Christ is your Saviour as much as mine, Larry. He will bring your soul to eternal life, if you open your heart to Him. Muhammad will not. With all respect for your feelings and cultural pride, which I don't wish to insult in any way; I wish you peace. May God come and lift your spirit up to His own Divine Will! Amen.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 07, 2001.

John

I'm sorry, but your question does not make sense to me. Maybe it is a language problem, since English is not your mother tongue. written by John

WHY ARE 2 KINGS 19 AND ISAIAH 37 EXACTLY THE SAME? WRITTEN BY LARRY

SO DID G-D INSPIRE THE AUTHORS OF THE TWO VERSES TO COPY ONE ANOTHER? WRITTEN BY LARRY

WHY ARE THERE CONTRADICTIONS IN THE BIBLE, IF IT IS INSPIRED BY G-D? WRITTEN BY LARRY

IS THAT PLAIN ENOUGH FOR YOU. WRITTEN BY LARRY

BORN IN AMERICA AND I AM NOT OF ARABIC DESCENT. SO ENGLISH IS MY NATIVE TONGUE. I AM AT WORK AND I JUST DO NOT HAVE TIME TO SPELL OUT EVERYTHING FOR YOU .TOIDI WRITTEN BY LARRY

KEEP YOUR ST. JAMES STATEMENTS I AM NOT INTO IDOLATRY. WRITTEN BY LARRY

-- Larry (Salaam113@aol.com), September 07, 2001.

Larry,

Not to nitpick, as you seem to have enough on your plate, but how is "St. James, pray for us" idolatry? How do YOU define idolatry?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), September 07, 2001.

John

Let's stick to the my questions first then we'll get to yours.

I'll copy them and bring them over. These are reposted from an earlier post.

WHY ARE 2 KINGS 19 AND ISAIAH 37 EXACTLY THE SAME? WRITTEN BY LARRY

SO DID G-D INSPIRE THE AUTHORS OF THE TWO VERSES TO COPY ONE ANOTHER? WRITTEN BY LARRY

WHY ARE THERE CONTRADICTIONS IN THE BIBLE, IF IT IS INSPIRED BY G-D? WRITTEN BY LARRY

-- Larry (Salaam113@aol.com), September 07, 2001.

Larry, my Friend--
2 Kings chapter 19 is all about David the King, in his very famous passage, Absalom, O Absalom, my son! (Verse 4) and forgiveness by David of Semei and Miphiboseth. And Bersellai the Gaaladite, after that Galgal and the people of Judah.

Isaias 37 is completely different, Larry. Isaias 37 is essentially the passages you've falsely quoted as being same as Kings 2. The only variance is you've made some mistakes in the numbering of the verses; why, I don't know. But your argument goes out the window. --You may think there are contradictions in the Bible, but you are as usual wrong.

The prayer to our patron Saint James is in no way idolatrous. He is in heaven as the faithful friend and apostle, not to mention kinsman of Our Lord Jesus Christ. He has the blessings of Jesus Christ, with His eternal Father Almighty and the Holy Spirit; to be able to hear our petitions and offer them to Our Lord. The same way in which the archangels in the Bible acted as messengers from God to the saints. Or would you call Mary the mother of Jesus an idolator for heeding the words of Gabriel the Holy Archangel? He said she was ''Full of grace'', and her Son who was to be born was the Son of the Most High --and of His kingdom there would be no end (Because He is eternal, like the Father). --(Luke, 1:28 and 32).

Is the Most High one whom you call Allah? That is Jesus' Father from all eternity. Jesus told us all so, and we believe Him.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 07, 2001.

Eugene

It's Isaiah 37, not Isaias 37. I have copied and post right from the King James version on the internet, it is posted above. I have not changed it one bit,so if you have a problem take it up with the bible. So my argument remain inside the window. These are probably the same aurthor that had Lot(pbuh) having sex with his daughters. Was that inspired also. We'll get to idolatry later.

-- Larry (larry@amecorp.com), September 07, 2001.

Larry-- I want to remain respectful toward you, and you make it hard. Isaias and Isaiah are the same. The H on the end is the rendition of the English translation (King James Protestant) and the Isaias as I wrote is from the Douay, Catholic version. --He is the same OT prophet, the book is the same, and you have no way of demonstrating it's identical to the 2Kings quotation you claim is alike. You are simply in error. Look again, Sir.

Lot's narrative is from Genesis, which is attributed to the Prophet Moses, not Isaiah. You're very disrespectful since you found you couldn't make your claims stick. If we continue, you must take me serious, at least. I'm not playing games with you; everything I say I double-check, and this is another dispute I've proven to you without doubt. Go back and read 2Kings and then answer me.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 07, 2001.

Eugene

http://bible. gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=isaiah+37%3A+1- 38&version=KJV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english

Read my post again, I am not saying that the story of Lot(pbuh) is in Isaiah. What I am saying is, there is no way that G-d inspired the story of Lot(pbuh) sleeping with his daugther. What is the lesson behind it? Can you share that with me? I am also saying that there is no way G-d will inspire to verses to be copied word for word.

-- Larry (Salaam113@aol.com), September 07, 2001.

There was nothing copied ''word for word''. You are absolutely mistaken. God is always free to inspire anything whatsoever to be written. I refuse to return to read anything about Lot. You are picking your own spots for contradicting the Church's translations of scripture, without ever giving credit to God for His own power to keep His Word intact.

Even if the most wicked, or ignorant or perverse men attempted to corrupt His Divine Word, they would not succeed, because He is never at the mercy of chance, or the whims of men. His Word stands and survives through the centuries and even millennia; nothing can wipe it out.

You may hope in your stubborn way to cast doubt on the veracity of the Holy Bible. But you haven't even the intelligence to select the approved Catholic translations by which to judge. You went blindly to a King James version, which is NOT the true Holy Bible as canonized by Christ's Holy Church. It is a spurious and incomplete translation made by English dissidents, for the use of the Church of England. The Church of England, in case you haven't noticed lately, has for its head the English monarch. It is Elizabeth II, the Queen. Someday the title will pass to the Prince of Wales, a hopeless adulterer and playboy. You read his Bible, and presume to preach to the followers of Christ and the Holy Spirit in the Catholic faith. Indeed, you lack common sense, Larry. Stick with the Quraan; at least you understand some of it. Then tell me the ''lesson'' behind your idolatry of Muhammad?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 07, 2001.

Larry,

I am confused as to why two Books of the Bible containing the same story would cause you to doubt the veracity of the Bible? Consider that the Bible was put to written word when there was a chance that the physical material that is was written on could have easily been destroyed or lost. Perhaps God thought it best to have this particular story written in two places? What better way to ensure it survived?

The fact that he inspired two separate people to write the same/similar story (Gene is correct, you are quoting a protestant version - please see Catholic Bible for a Catholic version) shows the importance of the story.

Finally Larry, you seem to be becoming quite angry with us. Perhaps you need to take some time to calm down before coming to this Catholic bulletin board for dialogue. No one would like this to become a SHOUTING match.

-- Glenn (glenn@excite.com), September 07, 2001.

Then tell me the ''lesson'' behind your idolatry of Muhammad?

Eugene, we do not idolize Prophet Muhammed. We don't have images of him in our houses or Mosques. At most, we may just have the calligraphy of his name. He even stated not to "worship" or "idolize" him. He is a perfect model what "we" can achieve. The way we treat people, worship God, being a perfect, father, husband. The examples are countless. Saying that we idolize him is completly false. Islam is not an -ism, we do not consider ourselves "Muhammedisms".

I was curious, someone had stated that they come to a conclusion on how "he" knew so much about Science and Astronomy, as well as other fields?

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), September 08, 2001.

Levent,
--I used the word ''idolatry'' as a direct retort to the way Larry dared say we should quit the prayer to Saint James at the ends of our posts. He said leave that out: Quote: KEEP YOUR ST. JAMES STATEMENTS I AM NOT INTO IDOLATRY. WRITTEN BY LARRY -- Sept. 07

I realize you aren't an idolater. But I actually think you have misplaced your trust in your great prophet. He isn't telling you the truth. As for my brief statement that I suspected something in what he ''KNEW'' about science and astronomy, I didn't want to call him anything that would insult your sensitivity; so I desisted. I do not think he ''knew'' what you think he knew. I happen to believe many things are revealed to some who are in the power of the evil one.

In the gospels there were Pharisees who accused Jesus of ''having a devil'', because He was able to work great wonders. We are certain they were mistaken, because in every aspect of His life, Jesus was a HOLY man.

Until I'm convinced the Prophet was above reproach, I refuse to accept his so-called scientific knowledge. It might dazzle you and other Muslims. But a Christian KNOWS, because Jesus prophesied-- false prophets will come: For false christs and false prophets will arise, and will show great signs and wonders so as to lead astray if possible even the elect.'' (Matt, 24: 24) We know Jesus is the Son of God; and we believe His word. He's warned us precisely of the coming of a man like Muhammad. So the signs which Muslims are so impressed with in Muhammad --are merely a fulfillment of Jesus' prophesy and strict warning. You are following one of the false prophets, Levent. It is written many would follow them.

This has to be a blow to you; I've spoken bluntly. For charity's sake I had never expressed this to you, and now it has to be said. In closing I must also remind you of the proof we are to make, of prophets who come doing great wonders-- ''By their works you shall know them.'' Among the followers of Muhammad, an alarming number are great evil-doers. I don't count you as one of these; but I have to wonder why you shift blame to the governments and leaders? Every day it becomes more apparent that Muslims don't want peace and brotherhood with the ''infidels.'' They only want an end to all their enemies, whether it takes war, terrorism, or conversion to Islam. --Jihad, Fatwah, Taliban rule, murders, bombings, and hate. All this is an apparent fact of daily life when you face the Muslim peoples of the world. It happens in Pakistan, Afghanistan, all the middle east, and African states.

Deaths by the tens of thousands; terrorist threats all over the world, kidnappings and massacres of innocent people. ''By their works you shall know them.'' It isn't necessary to be repeating this. If you counter once more with a recital of all the injustices by the non-Muslim peoples, I only answer this way: They may be uncharitable and violent in some cases (such as the racism, and lynchings and imperialism you denounced)-- But they are groups od evil men that perpetrate these crimes. Not men, women and children of a majority in whole countries, such as the Muslim societies. The crimes of western society, moreover, are not unpunished. People go to prison for hate crimes. They pay for their evil works. In places like Pakistan, Libya; Indonesia and all over Asia --Muslims are free on their streets after committing heinous crimes! Nobody calls them to account. NOT EVEN OSTENSIBLY GOOD PEOPLE LIKE YOU! I'll say it once more: ''By their works you shall know them.'' --Peace, Levent. Peace, Larry!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 08, 2001.

We do believe that a "false Prophet" will come and it will be the anti-christ, Al-Dajjal. This is one of the major signs of judgement day. Unfortanetly, you feel that the Prophet is he.

A minor sign is, Killing, killing, killing. (Bukhari & Muslim) Killing will increase. This is a Hadeeth of the Prophet. And you are right, Eugene it is increasing.

One more minor sign, The people of Iraq will receive no food and no money due to oppression by the Romans. (Europeans) (Muslim)

So, no one says I copied, I did. Type in Signs of Judgement Day in Google and you will come to the site(s).

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), September 08, 2001.

You might accept the Prophet and the Quraan. But in the very fact that both deny Jesus is God, and both teach mankind a different revelation of God (Allah), we have no choice but to reject them. In the start of this thread John Gecik listed a small number of documents stating the Catholic Church's offering of peace to the Muslim people. You ought to read them. I recommended the book by Chesterton, ''The Everlasting Man''. You ought to try to read it, and understand our motives.

Friendship between our two faiths is possible, but not an accord which demeans the Son of God. Christians have died for the faith. They died because they knew it was from God, and they knew it leads to everlasting life. We invite all other faiths to investigate the Christian (Catholic) Church, not with a biased outlook or misconceptions from previous teachers. With an open, sincere heart. God will reward the ones who do so. Peace, Levent.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 08, 2001.

I don't have any bias towards Christians, Catholics, or Jews. I could say Larry doesn't either, or any Muslim. If Muslims were hostile towards other religions, you would see American Musims killing people here or Europe. Like Larry and I have said, "What goes on in the Middle East is different". The US is economically sound, everyone is pretty much content. A person in a country like Iraq can't even eat 3 meals a day.

I will not force you to become a Muslim but I wouldn't sit there and have Islam slandered, either. I believe two programs will be coming on TV this Fall will do more than enough to slander Islam. It is these types of sterotyping that gets Muslims upset, rightfully.

Jesus the Son of Marry, being God is a different issue.

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), September 08, 2001.

Jmj

[Larry and Levent, I started the current thread (on which we are talking) to discuss the SUBJECT of interreligious dialogue. It was NOT intended to be a thread for CARRYING ON dialogue about specific subjects (such as our disagreements about the Bible, Koran, Jesus, Muhammad). About one week ago, I went to a great deal of trouble to create two new, shorter, easier-to-work-with threads for us Catholics to carry on dialogue with you and other Muslims. I have been amazed that neither of you, Larry or Levent, has yet visited those threads. I have worked hard to write some new messages to you on those threads. Now ... I am going to post my September 2 message for you again today (copied from up above), because it appears that you somehow overlooked it. (I hope that you did not ignore it and the two new threads on purpose!)]

Friends,
On this and the other thread to which we have been contributing lately (about "Similarities between Catholicism and Islam"), I noticed that two specific and very important topics have arisen again and again. Because these topics were getting intertwined with each other and with some minor topics, and because I thought that they deserved to be analyzed by us on their own, I just opened a new thread for each of the two topics. To these I suggest that you contribute. I would suggest also that you reserve the two original threads for discussing the topics for which they were originally established (similarities between our faiths ... and interreligious dialogue).

To set up the two new threads, I carefully read through this and the other original thread, "sifted out" many key quotations from various contributors, and copied them into one large "start-up" message for each new thread. I suggest that you take the time to re-read all these quotations on the new threads and let them be springboards to continuing the conversations/debates there.

The first new thread is called:
The nature(s) of Jesus.
Catholicism says "Jesus is divine and human. God is His Father."
Islam says "Jesus was human, a prophet. He had no father. He is not divine."
This thread can be found here.

The second new thread is called:
Catholicism says "Divine revelation = Bible + Sacred Tradition, interpreted by Magisterium (but not Koran)."
Islam says "Divine revelation = Koran + Bible (as originally written) [+ Haddith? (Muhammad's sayings/tradition)]
This thread can be found here.

[Here ends my quotation from the September 2 message. So you can see, Larry, that your recent comments/questions (about 2 Kings/Isaiah, Lot, etc.) should have been placed on the new "Divine revelation" thread, not on this "interreligous dialog" thread. After all of us finish discussing these final, left-over matters here (today, I hope), let us please switch over to the two new threads. As I mentioned, I left brand-new analyses/messages for you and Levent on those threads almost a week ago, and they are still unanswered. Those new threads were waiting for answers from you four days before you posted your new ideas here, on September 6. Thank you. Let us please leave behind these old, very long threads as soon as possible.]

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), September 08, 2001.

Jmj

I have some surprising things to say to all of you guys who have been posting here for the last two days.

(1) This is going to come as a shock to you, Gene and Glenn, but Larry has been correct in saying that a certain large passage in an O.T. historical book is almost identical to Isaiah 37. Let me explain to you why you thought he was mistaken. You prefer to use the Douay-Reims (DR) translation of the Bible -- which is certainly your right. Now it happens that the editors of the DR, which is based on St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate, chose to refer to four Old Testament books as 1 Kings, 2 Kings, 3 Kings, and 4 Kings. However, other translations of the Bible, including the newer Catholic versions (Jerusalem, Revised Standard, New American, etc.) do not use this older naming of the four books. Instead, the books are now called 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, and 2 Kings, respectively. Therefore, what you were calling "2 Kings," Eugene -- i.e., 2 Kings in the Douay Reims -- is called 2 Samuel in the King James Version and in modern Catholic translations. And therefore, what you were calling "2 Kings," Larry -- i.e., 2 Kings in the King James Version -- is called 4 Kings in Eugene's and Glenn's Douay Reims translation (which is even older than the King James of 1611!). [Gene, you will therefore find that 4 Kings 19 and Isaias 37 are almost the same in your DR.] Glenn and Gene, please be aware of the fact that there are other differences -- such as names of books [e.g., Paralipomenon/Chronicles] and the numbering of some of the Psalms -- between the DR and all other translations. Because you love the DR so much, no one can blame you for using it for your devotional reading. But for the purposes of apologetics at this forum, I would recommend that you not use the DR -- unless you can keep all the differences clear and not get into trouble! [By the way, many names of people end in "s" (such as Isaias) in the DR, because it is translated from the Latin, which language uses "s" to end most names. Other translations have names that end in "h" (such as Isaiah), because they are translated directly from the Hebrew.]

(2) Nevertheless, Eugene and Glenn were correct in their answers to you, Larry. You cannot place any limitations of restrictions on God. If he wanted something stated two or three times in the Bible, He was free to inspire two writers to write the same thing -- or He was free to inspire one to write and the other to copy. Remember we are talking about people who lived 3,000 years ago -- folks who did not have books as we know them. There was no "Bible," a collection of books that were bound together under one cover -- a single tome easy to flip around, with footnotes, cross-references, a search engine, etc.. Not at all. Instead, each scriptural book was on a separate bound-up scroll, difficult to unroll and search through. Now, it happens that in the midst of all the poetry and prophesy in Isaiah, there is a four-chapter section (36-39) that is referred to as an "historical appendix." I personally believe that, to set the historical scene the readers of Isaiah, that narrative section was copied into the book of Isaiah from what we now call 2 Kings (or 4 Kings). This was not "plagiarism" (deception) because God moved Isaiah to do this and because the people hearing or reading Isaiah would have known immediately that the information was a duplicate of what they were accustomed to seeing or hearing in Kings.

More later, I hope.

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), September 08, 2001.

Jmj

Continuing the things that I need to say in response to what has been posted here in the last two days ...

(1) Larry shouted: "WHY ARE THERE CONTRADICTIONS IN THE BIBLE, IF IT IS INSPIRED BY G-D? IS THAT PLAIN ENOUGH FOR YOU."

This is an insulting and unwise question. The fact that it was shouted (all upper case) is insulting. Why is it unwise? The very fact that Judaism and Christianity have survived with the same Bible for two millennia "plus" should tell any Muslim that there really are NOT contradictions, but that there is a logical explanation for anything that seems contradictory. Therefore, a respectful person from Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc., should not come to a Catholic forum and shout, "WHY ARE THERE CONTRADICTIONS." Instead he/she should respectfully say to us, "I am puzzled about what I see here. In the book of 'xxx,' it says, 'such-and-such,' but in the book of 'yyy,' it says 'thus-and-so.' Can you help me to reconcile this apparent contradiction?" So, Larry, please treat us with that kind of respect, or please stop coming here. We cannot allow you to mistreat us on our own forum (or anywhere else, for that matter). [By the way, there are books, articles, and even Internet sites (I think) that clarify so-called "biblical contradictions." This is a non-issue.]

(2) Larry continued shouting and abusing me: "BORN IN AMERICA AND I AM NOT OF ARABIC DESCENT. SO ENGLISH IS MY NATIVE TONGUE. I AM AT WORK AND I JUST DO NOT HAVE TIME TO SPELL OUT EVERYTHING FOR YOU .TOIDI"

Again I say that we cannot allow you to mistreat us on our own forum. If it continues, I will ask the Moderator to "disinvite" you. For the benefit of anyone who did not catch it, Larry's final "word" -- ".TOIDI" -- is his shouted insult, "IDIOT," spelled backwards. He did this twisted act because of something I respectfully stated earlier. On one occasion, he explained to Frank that he spelle "God" as "G-d" because he didn't like seeing "doG" backwards whenever he would see "God." I said that I could accept that, because maybe Larry is dyslexic or a native speaker of Arabic, which is read from right to left. I had good reasons to believe that he was from another country (where Arabic is the native language): (a) his English is very imperfect and (b) he is a Muslim and (c) he seemed to be reading from right to left (since I have, never in my life, heard of any other person seeing "doG" for "God"). For all these reasons, I repeat that Larry has no right to call me an "idiot."

Larry is particularly steamed at me because of embarrassment at being shown to have plagiarized some things, and he is further angered at my requiring him to better explain some cryptic questions that he posted here. He says "I am at work and I just do not have time to spell out everything for you, idiot." Well, if he is busy at work, he should not be at this forum. Let him post from home (or from work, after hours or during lunch) and do a good job of posting, not a cryptic, slipshod job in a big hurry.

(3) Larry finished his shouting at me with: "KEEP YOUR ST. JAMES STATEMENTS I AM NOT INTO IDOLATRY."

Man, this guy is angry. Nobody gets so angry about matters of this kind unless he is feeling very guilty, nervous, and confused. That is probably a good thing in this case. It is a sign to me that Larry was once a Christian (named after St. Lawrence the Martyr) and is now a convert to Islam (perhaps a so-called "Black Muslim") -- but is finally having it shown to him that he made a big mistake. Have I guessed correctly, Larry? That would explain this incredibly strange outburst on your part. As Frank asked you, how is a request for the prayers of a holy Apostle of Jesus, on our behalf, a form of idolatry? Not surprisingly, Larry, you have not answered Frank's question, because there is no good answer for it. (Thanks, Gene, for eloquently explaining why there is no idolatry involved.) But Frank overlooked the fact that Larry had no right at all to tell me to "Keep [my] St. James statements." This is a Catholic forum, wherein I can invoke the help of a saint, without having to be concerned that a non-believer may insult that kind of religious expression. If Larry does such a thing again, I will ask the Moderator to disinvite him.

More later, I hope.

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), September 09, 2001.

Jmj

Continuing the things that I need to say in response to what has been posted here in the last two days ...

(1) Larry stated, "These are probably the same aurthor that had Lot ... having sex with his daughters. Was that inspired also. ... [T]here is no way that G-d inspired the story of Lot(pbuh) sleeping with his daugther. What is the lesson behind it? Can you share that with me?"

Larry, who is in no position to say what God would or would not inspire, is mistaken again.
Let's take a look at the Genesis 19 passage to which Larry refers. It refers to the time just after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah:

"So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in which Lot dwelt. Now Lot went up out of Zo'ar, and dwelt in the hills with his two daughters, for he was afraid to dwell in Zo'ar; so he dwelt in a cave with his two daughters. And the first-born said to the younger, 'Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth. Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring through our father.' So they made their father drink wine that night; and the first-born went in, and lay with her father; he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. And on the next day, the first-born said to the younger, 'Behold, I lay last night with my father; let us make him drink wine tonight also; then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve offspring through our father.' So they made their father drink wine that night also; and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. Thus both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father. The first-born bore a son, and called his name Moab; he is the father of the Moabites to this day. The younger also bore a son, and called his name Ben-ammi; he is the father of the Ammonites to this day."

Larry was upset, due to his false thinking that the Bible records that Lot (an honored patriarch) had intentionally partaken of incest with his own daughters. Instead we see that this happened through a trick by the girls, who took advantage of their elderly, inebriated father. Yet, even they did it for what they thought was a valid reason -- that it was the only way for the family to carry on. It could be that God did not fault Lot's daughters for this, just as he did not fault the incest of the very first people (e.g., possibly Cain or Abel with their sisters). Remember that Lot lived in the very early days -- Abraham's time, not in the time of Hebrews, Moses, and the Ten Commandments. One of the goals of Genesis is to explain to the Jewish people how the various nations of the world came into being. I believe that God's major purpose in inspiring the writing of this Genesis 19 passage was to show how the neighboring Moabites and Ammonites arose -- not from Abraham, but from Lot (through his daughters).

More later, I hope.

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), September 09, 2001.

Jmj

Concluding the things that I needed to say in response to what has been posted here in the last two days ...

Eugene, I'm afraid that I have to agree with a great deal of your analysis of the religious and political situation -- all the thoughts that you held back for so long (to be diplomatic), the things that Levent drew out of you by asking you a certain question.

There is a major problem for us who are trying to discuss these matters here, and I think that I have finally gotten a good grasp of it recently.
As we all have noticed, Larry and Levent get extremely upset whenever anyone here (or in the media) mentions that a Muslim has been the perpetrator of a crime or an act of terrorism or a barbaric application of a law or a denial of freedom to Christians, etc.. There is no end to Larry and Levent's protestations that people are being unjust when they mention the "Muslim" perpetrator and thereby pin the blame for the bad actions on the religion of Islam. No, they say. Islam stands for peace and justice, not crime, etc.. Those bad people just happen to say that they are adherents of Islam, but the religion itself rejects the things they have done.

OK, now. What have I unearthed and concluded about this? I have determined that there is a very troubling thing going on here -- and it would be humorous if it were not so sad. HERE IS THE KEY FACT: Islam, because it has no central focus of authority (no pope, no magisterium, no authentic catechism), has gone the way of Protestantism. It has split into two major factions (and probably some small ones too).

When we Christians speak of Muslims, we have in mind ALL people who honor Muhammad as a prophet and think that the Koran is God's revelation. That is why we divide the world's Muslims mainly into the Sunni faction (about 90%) and the Shiite faction (about 10%). The Sunnis are perceived by us non-Muslims as much more moderate than the Shiites. However, I now believe that Larry and Levent do NOT divide Islam into two major factions! [More about that in a moment.] I am almost certain that Levent and Larry are Sunnis (or at least not Shiites). The reasons I say this is twofold:

(1) A couple of weeks ago, Levent asked us to go to a certain Internet site to read a long essay about the world's unjust treatment of Muslims in the media, etc.. Well, I did go and read that essay and have been thinking about it for the last 10 to 12 days. Believe it or not, that essay says that the only true Muslims are the Sunnis. Here is what the author says (from the text and an endnote): "However, it is known by the heads of the media that the likes of the PLO were not an Islamic organisation, and that according to Islam, Shi'ites are outside the fold of Islam ... The beliefs which are contained in the books of the Shi'ites places them outside of the fold of Islam generally."

(2) Much, if not almost all, of the crimes, terrorism, "legal injustice," etc., is being perpetrated around the world by Shiites (and perhaps other non-Sunni factions). And here is the key item ... Many of these evil people claim that what they are doing is permitted or even required by Islam. And that is EXACTLY why non-Muslims everywhere, including the media, mention that perpetrators are Muslims. They THEMSELVES link their actions to their religion! Examples: (a) They speak of "holy war" (violence + religion); and (b) two of the most notorious terrorist groups are called "Islamic Jihad" (terrorism + religion) and "Hezbollah," an alternate spelling of "Hizb-Allah" = "Party of God" (terrorism + religion).

So now you see why I believe Larry and Levent are Sunnis (or non-Shiites). They want nothing to do with those crimes, so they conveniently "excommunicate" the non-Sunni criminals (and their ayatollahs, etc.) from Islam itself!

The acts of outrageous violence perpetrated by Muslims (probably mainly Shiites) have been going on and on for 25 years or more. Non-Muslims are fed up with this. And we non-Muslims CANNOT look at the situation the way Levent and Larry do, because we DO consider both Sunnis and Shiites to be adherents of Islam -- NOT JUST THE SUNNIS. Therefore Larry and Levent cannot be angry at us. WE are not at fault. Rather, it was the failure of Islam -- right from its first century -- to retain its original unity that has caused their unavoidable grief.

Islam has split into factions that reject (sometimes even hate) each other and do not believe all the same things. Do you see how similar this is to Protestantism? And it is all because it was a man, not God, who created Islam -- a religion with no central focus of authority: no pope, no magisterium, no single Catechism ... and now utter confusion, chaos, and violence in the name of God. In like manner, Protestantism was begun by men, not God -- becoming a part of Christianity with no central focus of authority: no pope, no magisterium, no single Catechism ... and then followed utter confusion (of thousands of denominations), theological chaos, and violence in the name of God (much rarer now, thank Heaven).

So, as I see it, there is no way out of this mess of hatred and violence until all people of our fair planet are blessed by God with the gift of grace to become members of the Catholic Church, which Jesus (God-with-us) founded.

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

PS: As mentioned earlier, I hope that we can now switch over to the two new threads, to discuss (1) God's revelation and (2) the nature(s) of Jesus.

PPS: For those who like more detail, the following is interesting stuff from an article called "The Islamic Scorecard":

"Although the Islamic sphere is radically different from that of the West, it is not a single unit, a single set of religious beliefs per se, but rather a variety of sects and factions which are often at odds with each other and frequently at each others throats. The following is only an introductory scorecard. The two main bodies within Islam are the Sunni Muslims (800 million) and the Shi'ite Muslims (110 million). The split occurred in the Seventh Century over a dispute concerning the true successor of Muhammad. The Sunnis are the majority of the overall Muslim population except in Iran, Lebanon, and Bahrein.

"The Sunnis themselves are divided into the Ibadhis and the Wahhabis. The latter is the dominant group in Saudi Arabia and the former is everybody else.
The Shi'ites are split into approximately five separate factions. The two most important ones are the Ithna Asharis (literally 'Twelvers', after the 12th Muslim Imam in the Ninth Century) and the Alawites. The Twelvers (60 million) sect of the Shi'ites has been the official state religion in Iran since 1502. Khomeini turned it into an activist political doctrine and the basis for his Iranian Islamic revolution. The Ithna Asharis also comprise more than half the population in Iraq (a major element in the Iran - Iraq war) and in Bahrein. They are also a vigorous and significant minority in Lebanon that includes such factions as the Hizbullah (Hizb-Allah, Party of Allah) and Amal.

"The [Shi'ites known as] Alawites (1 million), or 'Nusseiri' as they were originally known, although a rather obscure sect within Islam, takes on particular importance because they rule Syria, a primary example of a state sponsoring international terrorism. President al-Assad of Syria is an Alawite and has made sure that vital military and political positions are dominated by fellow Alawites. The Alawites only comprise about 10% of Syria's approximately 8.5 million population. And the Sunnis, the overwhelming majority, perceive the Alawites as heretics. As a result, Assad has faced heavy opposition from the [Sunni] Muslim Brotherhood ... and their supporters within Syria. To maintain control, he has brutally suppressed all opposition to his minority Alawite regime. In 1982, for example, the Syrian Army massacred an estimated 20,000 or more Sunnis in the town of Hama.

"Things become even more complex because of the existence of tribal groups within Islam such as the Kurds (10 million) who are spread out through Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and Syria. (Mostly Sunni, the Kurds include some Shi'ites too.) In Iraq and Iran the Kurds have been at odds with the ruling regimes intermittently for years. In Iraq they fought an all out war during the 1960's and 1970's. In Iran, Khomeini issued orders back in 1979 to crush the Kurds. Subsequently they withdrew to the surrounding mountains where they have waged a guerilla war with Teheran ever since."

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), September 09, 2001.

I don't know if this is the right forum but I am answering John's question about the Shiites and Sunni situation. Yeah, I am a Sunni because I do believe the Caliphs were the successors. Okay, so Muslims kill people and when you see it on TV, you naturally "assume" that all Muslims kill. That is your opinion, that Muslims are turban wearing people in the Middle East proclaiming "Jihad" (which has been interrupted by the media) doing suicide bombings, and killing anyone that is a Non-Muslim. We have been trying to say that not all Muslims are like that but I guess the media has more influence than I do. That is cool. Maybe that should be a wake-up call to all Muslims. As I had posted before, the Prophet did say one of the minor signs of Judgment Day would be an increase of killings. Unfortunately, it is occurring.

I just want to leave you off with this. A hypothetical question, The Prophet could say, on such and such day this something would occur. Let’s say this “thing” does occur. Again, people will not believe the message and will say Satan inspired him.

I believe this is a Hadeeth, it stats that “if you are not willing to believe and keep denying the message, Allah will show you signs of why not to believe. He will give you reasons why not to Believe. But if you willing to believe by opening your heart, he will show you reasons why to believe.

Don’t take this the wrong way, I know you guys are not atheist. If an atheist asked you, show me the existence of God (not willing to accept any answer given, because he hasn’t opened is heart)? You state your reasons to the person, scientific reasons as well as logical reasons yet this person still denies the existence of God.

I would like to say that I chuckle when you say that the Prophet is a “false Prophet” but it is the opposite. I am very saddened because the information is out there and it is very clear. When that time comes, people will be in for a big surprise than it will be too late.

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), September 09, 2001.

Dear Levent:
You might very likely be someday beneficiary of the mercy Catholics believe (we are taught) that God shows to good people in a state of invincible ignorance. Our Holy Father John Paul II cautions his faithful against presuming to know whom God will save. It isn't our choice, it's God's. When a man or woman, through no conscious fault, is ignorant of the truth --in this case, salvation through Jesus Christ-- if he or she repents all sin, and offers the soul to God, a baptism of ''desire'' is imputed to that soul. A baptism which by His mercy alone unites that soul with Jesus Christ; His Passion, Death, and Resurrection. Because God is All Merciful, and loves a just man despite his errors.

You ARE in error, Levent. May God have mercy on you, your family and your people-- those whose sins in this life are forgiven through Jesus Christ. For there is no other way to reach eternal life except through Him.

It is plain to me that you can't be receptive to any faith that doesn't have Muhammad for its basis. The Quraan, I sincerely believe, is only the work of a man and not divinely inspired, and you've joined your fortunes to it. This same Quraan has in it a road-block to acceptance of the Holy Gospel. It's a CROSS you must carry in this life, and faithful Christians must have compassion. If we see a man without legs, we can only feel love and compassion for that man. It's his cross, and we can't carry it for him. But we can pray for him, and hope that in the next life his legs will be strong and full of life.

You are worthy of being helped and comforted through our prayers to God All Merciful. If in this life you cannot see the hope of His Holy Gospel, which is the love of His Divine Son Our Lord; in the next life we pray that by His infinite Mercy, you do. I've named two of the Cardinal Virtues, HOPE and LOVE. The third is FAITH, which you lack. We have that faith, Levent, and we will have faith today --that on the last day Jesus will reunite us all in heaven. That is what we pray for today. Your final salvation. PEACE.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 09, 2001.

Levent, I agree with you, When the time comes, Muslims will be in for a big suprise, than it will be to late! You have the truth in front of your face, and I suggest you open up your eyes, that Jesus gave you, because you never know when you will meet Jesus! David S

-- David S (asdzxc8176@aol.com), September 09, 2001.

Yes, David he will come.

The Descent of 'Issa (Jesus, the Messiah) Remember ALLAH (swt) raised 'Issa (S) to the heavens when the Jews wanted to crucify him. He will return. * "And he (Jesus) shall be a Sign of the Hour." Surat Al Zukhrof (43) Ayah 61. * Hadeeth: "I am the closest of all the people to 'Issa son of Maryam, for there is no prophet between him and myself. He will come again, and when you see him, you will recognize him. He is of medium height and his complexion is reddish-white, he will be wearing two garments, and his hair will look wet, although no water had got to it." (Abu Dawood) * Hadeeth: "By the ONE in Whose Hand my soul is, surely the son of Maryam will come down among you as a just ruler. He will break the cross, kill the pig and abolish the Jizyah. Wealth will be in such abundance that no one will care about it, and a single prostration will be better than the world and all that is in it." (Al Bukhari) * Hadeeth: "Then peace and security will prevail on earth, so that lions will graze with camels, tigers with cattel and wolves with sheep. Children will be able to play with snakes without coming to any harm. 'Issa will remain on earth for forty years, then he will die, and the Muslims will pray for him." (Ahmad) *'Issa (S) will rule with the Islamic Shari'ah as was sent down with Mohammad (S) and will abolish all that does not conform with the Shari'ah.

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), September 09, 2001.

If Isa died for my sins then I can commit no wrong, because he died for my sins. So no matter what, I should be going to Paradise. No, we all be going to Paradise because Isa supposedly died for our sins. So I am not accountable for my sins because Isa died for me. Anyone can not say that I am not going to Pardise because we aren't God and Isa died for my sins.

I kinda like that concept, i am no accountability.

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), September 09, 2001.

Jmj

Hello, Levent. I wish that I could be as conciliatory as Eugene just was. He really likes you a lot. I like you too, but sometimes (like today) you drive me nuts!

I was very disappointed by something that you just wrote:
"Okay, so Muslims kill people and when you see it on TV, you naturally 'assume' that all Muslims kill. ... We have been trying to say that not all Muslims are like that but I guess the media has more influence than I do."

What causes you to keep jumping to such foolish conclusions -- a "victimization complex" or paranoia or something else? You speak as though you used little care in reading my messages -- and that hurts me, since I tried SO hard to write clearly and charitably. Take another look at what I wrote, and you will see that I NEVER said that we "assume that all Muslims kill." That is a terrible exagerration of what I said! Why did you exagerrate? And your criticism of the media is unwarranted too. You are writing foolish things. The media NEVER tells the non-Muslim public that all Muslims are bad, that they are likely to kill/bomb/hijack, etc.. That is a product of your runaway imagination.

The point I made clearly yesterday was that there has been SO MUCH killing by Muslims (probably mostly Shiites, using Islam as an excuse) for SO LONG that non-Muslims all over the world very logically (1) associate terrorism with Islam and (2) have at least a bit of healthy distrust for every Muslim they now meet, until they can determine that the Muslim is good and can be trusted.

Non-Muslims do NOT assume that "all Muslims kill." We are smart enough to know that we are very UNlikely to be harmed by any Muslim living in, or visiting, our nation. However, non-Muslims never know which Muslim they meet is capable of crimes that would harm them. It could be any Muslim whom they meet! And that fear/distrust has been caused by so much killing/hijcacking/etc. for so many years by people who tie their actions to their sect within Islam.

Consequently, the decent Muslims of the world (like you, Levent) have seen the world's air poisoned by the bad ones. And here is the key point ... If the bad ones had never linked their crimes with their religion, then there would be no "poisoned air" now for good people like you. But they DID link their crimes with Islam (as I demonstrated above [e.g., Hizb-Allah, Islamic Jihad, etc.], and the situation is now probably like an incurable disease. Not only do non-Muslims now distrust every Muslim that they meet, but (except for one confused minority group) non-Muslims would not, for a minute, consider converting to Islam. They don't want to belong to a religion that has been linked, by so many events, with injustice and insane acts of violence.

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), September 09, 2001.

You came in your error, Levent. You must leave now in your ignorance. But the Gospel has been given you; you can no longer claim you weren't told. Goodbye. Or are you to remain here now, paying yourself compliments and enjoying our hospitality? Do you visit a family and sit in their parlor telling them they're fools?

You think you've won the contest, all because your blindness can't be helped. Take your prize, then. You've been entertained. What else do you want? Shall we tell you about the Son of God all over again?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 09, 2001.

Jmj

How could you write this, Levent?
"If Isa died for my sins then I can commit no wrong, because he died for my sins. So no matter what, I should be going to Paradise. No, we all be going to Paradise because Isa supposedly died for our sins. So I am not accountable for my sins because Isa died for me. Anyone can not say that I am not going to Pardise because we aren't God and Isa died for my sins. I kinda like that concept, i am no accountability."

Was that supposed to be some kind of joke? Or are you really 100% ignorant of Christian theology. If you live in the U.S., you ought to know by now that "accountability" DOES exist -- for you and all men -- and you ought to know by now that the redemption/salvation won by the death of Jesus is not "applied" to any adult UNTIL that person admits his sins, repents of them, and asks and receives forgiveness. There is no magic here, my friend, and you ought to know that by now! If I lived in an Islamic country, I would take pains to understand that religion thoroughly.

Now can we please switch over to my two new threads? Click on the links, above, to get to them. Thank you.

God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), September 09, 2001.

I am sorry if I offended you John but when I met, “you”. I was not pointing you out in particular; I should have made that clear in the first place. The media has a lot of influence over the people. When I read the paper and 10 Palestine’s die, it does not make the headlines. However, when one Jew dies, it is the first topic on-hand. I am not trying to point fingers at Jews or be bias but that is reality.

Secondly, not everyone Non-Muslim may think positively as you and Eugene do about Muslims. I don’t want to advertise a show that degrades Islam but the public is influenced by what they see on TV and that is the fact. “The Agency” on CBS is one show that will degrade Muslims as being terrorist. One show, about one Muslim being a terrorist is enough to persuade numerous people into believing that all Muslims are evil. I believe there will be another show on CBS or HBO that will depict the same thing. If the show mentions the word “Allah” used negatively, just once, that is enough to slander Islam. Non-Muslims do NOT assume that "all Muslims kill." We are smart enough to know that we are very UNlikely to be harmed by any Muslim living in, or visiting, our nation. However, non-Muslims never know which Muslim they meet is capable of crimes that would harm them. It could be any Muslim whom they meet! And that fear/distrust has been caused by so much killing/hijcacking/etc. for so many years by people who tie their actions to their sect within Islam. This is what you said in your post. I like the part where you said Muslims living in this nation will very unlikely harm Non-Muslims. That is true. Then you go on and say that you don’t know who to trust and who might harm them. So what you are saying is that Catholics should fear/distrust the Protestants because of what happened in Belfast? Aren’t they using the religion issue? For so many years Russia and Afghanistan were at war and innocent people were dying. How many people from the West knew about this, including myself. Very little. Now, Afghanistan does this and knocks a statue down. People are very interested in what this country does. Then words like Jihad, Shariah, HizboAllah are used out of context by the media. Ask any non-Muslim and they will say that Jihad means holy war. True, but that is not the only meaning. It also deals with Spiritual. But the media doesn’t want that other meaning because it doesn’t bring in ratings. I know what will be said that the Muslims meant it as a Holy War.

I had mentioned in a previous post, “people” in general like to “classify and stereotype”.

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), September 09, 2001.

That is how I hear a lot of people saying it. Isa died for my sins so guess I can do this. I swear when I was driving, I saw it on the sign in front of the Church. "Jesus died for your sins".

-- Levent (Levent21@yahoo.com), September 09, 2001.

Levent, You just said that not every non-Muslim may think as positive as Eugene and John! Respect is a 2 way street Levent! You have to give respect also. You are on the Catholic Forum! This is not the media, that has alot of influence over the people! You are starting to sound like, that you think the world owes you something because you chose to be a Muslim! These Christians have bent over backwards to help you, and all you do in return is insult The Holy Trinity! Please show respect on this board! David S

-- David S (asdzxc8176@aol.com), September 09, 2001.

Levent-- God is merciful and forgives our sins, but NOT because He has to. His mercy is conditional. Because He is Holy beyond all our understanding, a single sin is an offense against His majesty that cannot be wiped out, except by our death. Keep that in mind. You MUST know that Allah's honor is infinite; no one can live who offends Him.

All of us, for one single sin are deserving of death; a death without return. That is, eternal damnation. It is enough we are descendants of the Original Sinner, Adam-- for us to deserve this end. Since we deserve this, owing to God's Infinite Holiness, which cannot co-exist in the presence of sin, only DEATH is a payment for our sin.

Therefore, when it's said, ''Jesus died for our sins'', nothing could be truer! Our sins stand between us and LIFE; our sins leave us nothing but death to look forward to.

But God (Allah) is not defeated by the works of men! Why would He accept that a creature of His had the choice of defeating His Divine Will?

He sent His own Son, then; as the one whose DEATH makes total satisfaction for all the sins of humanity. The Infinite Glory and Majesty of God is restored to Him in one death: the death and resurrection of a PERSON equal in dignity and majesty and holiness to Himself; Jesus, His only Son. We could never hope to offer Him such a reparation by ourselves, because we aren't gods.

So, don't laugh; Jesus DID offer His death for you and for me. Not because we weren't the ones ''accountable''. Because we could never hope to make ourselves worthy of God again, after even ONE sin! We had only death before us. All of us have been dependent on Jesus Christ, from the day that Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden. No one else was going to be able to restore us to God's grace--only God Himself! Every man ever born --Adam, Abraham, Moses, every prophet, every saint and every sinner --was saved in His death on the cross. It was the only possible payment for the sins of the human race. A Divine Victim, offering Himself freely, for love of us.

We avail ourselves of this salvation by coming to Him in faith; uniting ourselves with Him in baptism and repentence of sin. But without Him, no repentence is enough. His blood is what washes away our sins.

That is the Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ. And that is why He calls all men to Himself; Muslims, Christians, Protestants, Jews, all men! He saves us all.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 10, 2001.

Jmj

Levent, you wrote to me as follows: "I like the part where you said Muslims living in this nation will very unlikely harm Non-Muslims. That is true. Then you go on and say that you don't know who to trust and who might harm them. So what you are saying is that Catholics should fear/distrust the Protestants because of what happened in Belfast?"

No, I am not saying that at all. I will explain.

The unrest in Northern Ireland is just that -- unrest in Northern Ireland. The violence in and around Belfast is a problem that is much more political than religious -- the desire of one side to be independent (or allied with Great Britain) and the desire of the other side to be part of a single, united island republic. You apparently are not aware of the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of Protestants in the (southern) Republic of Ireland (e.g., an Anglican cathedral in Dublin, etc.), peacefully living with their Catholic neighbors. If there really were all-out religious hatred on the whole island, the minority Protestants in the south would have been wiped out long ago, instead of being treated with the respect they now enjoy.

So you are wrong to think that it would be logical for us Catholics in the U.S. to fear and distrust all Protestants. The violence is Northern Ireland is isolated to that corner of the world. Neither side in Belfast is sending terrorists all over the world to do hijackings, bombings of skyscrapers, bombings of embassies -- but some Muslim groups do send such warriors abroad! Neither side in Belfast is imposing incredibly inhumane laws on their foes -- but some Muslims do impose Islamic (Sharia) law on everyone, even non-Muslims, in their nations, and they would like to see Sharia imposed on every nation on earth! Neither side in Belfast is using planes to bomb civilians in villages nor enslaving their enemies' children nor attempting to engage in forced conversions -- but some Muslims (at least in Sudan) do! Neither side in Belfast is using and making heroes out of suicide bombers -- but some Muslims do. And neither side in Belfast is saying that all people of the opposing faith ought to be killed -- as some Muslims say about Jews in Israel. So, I hope that you can now see that the situations are not comparable at all. There is simply no reason for Catholics in the U.S. to fear/distrust Protestants (and vice versa), but it is only a natural reaction in human nature for non-Muslims all over the world to fear/distrust Muslims, because their terror is vastly more barbaric and is exported internationally. Even so, as I said in an earlier message, that fear/distrust fades away in specific cases, when non-Muslims become confident that their Muslim neighbors and co-workers are from a peace-loving, respectful group.

Thanks, Eugene, for so beautifully explaining to Levent the facts about Jesus's atoning suffering and death, by which mankind has been redeemed. I was very surprised to see that he was not joking in his first comment about "accountability," but that he really did NOT have any idea about what Christians believed concerning this. It's no wonder, then, that the thought of Jesus being both human and divine has seemed so impossible to Levent until now. May the Lord grant him a miracle of grace to accept this.

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John


-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), September 10, 2001.

Jmj

To reinforce what I have been saying, I want to quote some figures that I stumbled across this morning. They come from a very recent Gallup poll on Americans' attitudes on immigration. In the midst of other questions, those polled were asked about their "overall opinion of some foreign countries." They were to rank each country with an opinion of "very favorable" or "mostly favorable" [combined by Gallup as "favorable"] ... or with an opinion of "very unfavorable" or "mostly unfavorable" [combined by Gallup as "unfavorable"]. I will present just a few countries' ratings, so that a clear point about trust/distrust is conveyed.

Canada:
..... very favorable - 51%
..... mostly favorable - 39%
..... very unfavorable - 4%
..... mostly unfavorable - 3%
..... no opinion - 3%
.. favorable total = 90%
.. unfavorable total = 7%

Italy:
..... very favorable - 24%
..... mostly favorable - 54%
..... very unfavorable - 8%
..... mostly unfavorable - 4%
..... no opinion - 10%
.. favorable total = 78%
.. unfavorable total = 12%

Israel:
..... very favorable - 18%
..... mostly favorable - 45%
..... very unfavorable - 20%
..... mostly unfavorable - 12%
..... no opinion - 5%
.. favorable total = 63%
.. unfavorable total = 32%

Cuba:
..... very favorable - 4%
..... mostly favorable - 23%
..... very unfavorable - 41%
..... mostly unfavorable - 27%
..... no opinion - 5%
.. favorable total = 27%
.. unfavorable total = 68%

Egypt:
..... very favorable - 11%
..... mostly favorable - 54%
..... very unfavorable - 19%
..... mostly unfavorable - 4%
..... no opinion - 12%
.. favorable total = 65%
.. unfavorable total = 23%

Palestinian Authority:
..... very favorable - 4%
..... mostly favorable - 18%
..... very unfavorable - 39%
..... mostly unfavorable - 24%
..... no opinion - 15%
.. favorable total = 22%
.. unfavorable total = 63%

Libya:
..... very favorable - 2%
..... mostly favorable - 9%
..... very unfavorable - 40%
..... mostly unfavorable - 35%
..... no opinion - 14%
.. favorable total = 11%
.. unfavorable total = 75%

Iran:
..... very favorable - 2%
..... mostly favorable - 10%
..... very unfavorable - 45%
..... mostly unfavorable - 38%
..... no opinion - 5%
.. favorable total = 12%
.. unfavorable total = 83%

Iraq:
..... very favorable - 2%
..... mostly favorable - 7%
..... very unfavorable - 34%
..... mostly unfavorable - 51%
..... no opinion - 6%
.. favorable total = 9%
.. unfavorable total = 85%

Another item that I just bumped into comes from today's London "Daily Telegraph." I don't like quoting this, but I have to do it to help show why there is fear and distrust of Islam among non-Muslims everywhere:
"If you thought the Afghanistan Taliban was bad, the Lashkar-e-Jabbar radicals in Kashmir [deciding to enforce what they consider an Islamic dress code] today will begin instituting their on-the-street punishment for [Muslim] women appearing in anything other than head-to-toe burqas: acid in the face."
[From a "gospelcom.net" page: "A burqa (or 'abaya' in many places) is a long garment used by Muslim women to drape their body, with only a grid through which to see. When women observe this custom, it means that, from the age of puberty, they mix only with near relatives and women friends in private, and must wear the veil or the burqa in public. Although the Qur'an does not demand that women should be covered completely in public, complete veiling of women is practised in many countries. This reflects traditions in very conservative societies, rather than the teaching of Islam. Some women today may therefore be more restricted in their dress than Muslim women were at the time of Muhammad."]

God bless you.
John
PS: I am going to keep saying this, hoping that it is noticed some day ... Can we please switch over to my two new threads [which are already getting old!]?
The first new thread is about the nature(s) of Jesus.
Catholicism says "Jesus is divine and human. God is His Father."
Islam says "Jesus was human, a prophet. He had no father. He is not divine."
This thread can be found here.
The second new thread is about divine revelation:
Catholicism says "Divine revelation = Bible + Sacred Tradition, interpreted by Magisterium (but not Koran)."
Islam says "Divine revelation = Koran + Bible (as originally written) [+ Haddith? (Muhammad's sayings/tradition)]
This thread can be found here.

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), September 10, 2001.

Jmj

[Excerpts from a remarkabley frank and insightful article by faithful Catholic commentator (and should-have-been Cabinet member), Linda Chavez:]

"We are not fighting a war on terrorism. Terrorism is the means by which our enemy chooses to wage war against us, but we should not confuse its tactics with the nature of the enemy itself. The enemy has an ideology. It has a command structure. It has troops. And it is clear in its aim -- nothing short of the destruction of our civilization.

"The enemy is militant Islamic fundamentalism. The command structure is made up of hundreds of mullahs around the world, including some living in this country, who preach death to the infidels. Its troops include not just the thousands of trained terrorists but the millions of others who support the mullahs and finance the terrorists through their donations to radical Islamic groups. To pretend otherwise risks not only our own defeat, but that of the moderate Moslem world as well. ...

"The direction of Islam as a religion has become increasingly threatening to non-believers, not just in the West but throughout the world. Its threat extends beyond the Middle East to Asia and Africa, even to the United States where some fundamentalist imams spread their hateful doctrines protected by our First Amendment.

"... [T]he response of virtually every moderate Moslem leader to the threat posed by fundamentalists has been to accede to the fundamentalists' interpretation of Islam, and to further the Islamization of all social, cultural, and political institutions in their countries. Even Turkey, which since Mustafa Kemal Ataturk's policies of secularization in the 1920s and 1930s has been the most pro-Western Moslem nation, has become more Islamist in the last few years. ... [E]very Moslem country in the world is more Islamist today than it was two decades ago, with the exception of Iran -- but only because Iran was the vanguard of the Islamic Revolution.

"Despite what our leaders keeping telling us, Islam is not inherently a peaceful religion. Unlike Christianity, in whose name wars have been fought but without any Scriptural basis to support those wars to be found in the teachings of Jesus Christ, Islam can find explicit justification for its jihad or 'holy war' within its sacred text.

"The Koran instructs believers to "slay the idolaters ... make war on the leaders of unbelief -- for no oaths are binding with them -- so that they may desist. Will you not fight against those who have broken their oaths and conspired to banish the Apostle? They were the first to attack you. Do you fear them? Surely God is more deserving of your fear, if you are true believers. Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them." The Koran is filled with elaborate instructions on the conduct of war, the methods of executing the infidels, the rewards that will accrue to those martyred in a holy war.

"The very nature of fundamentalism is to take these instructions literally. And there is plenty of historical precedent. For nearly one thousand years, Europe was under nearly constant siege from Islamic invaders, from the first Moors who conquered Spain in 710 to the last Ottoman attack on Vienna in 1683. So long as the trend within the Moslem world today is toward a fundamentalist interpretation of Islam, the West will continue to face a new threat to its survival."
---------------------- End quotation ------------------

Dear Catholic friends,
Worth our consideration is what are meant by the terms, "Islamic fundamentalism" and "moderate Moslem world." People all over the place -- in the White House, in Congress, in the media, several Christians (including me) and Muslims at this forum, etc. -- have been saying, even before September 11, that Islam is supposed to be a religion of peace, non-violence, and respect -- and that all these good features are reflected throughout the Koran and in many Muslim nations. Could it be that "people all over the place" (including me) have been terribly mistaken? I now think that the answer is YES.

As Christians, we rightly decry the watering down of Christianity and Catholicism -- the tendency of people to be "cafeteria Catholics," something that started happening due to "liberalizing" influences in Protestantism before the year 1900. We see Christian Fundamentalism -- with its principal of "Biblical literalism" -- to be a reaction against the watering down of Christianity.

Guess what? Even a week or more before seeing Mrs. Chavez's article today, I have begun to realize that the Islamic Fundamentalism that we hate -- that seems linked to gross violence, suicide attacks, international terrorism, anti-Judaism, anti-Christianity, and anti-Americanism -- is a "restorative" reaction against the watering down of Islam! The implications are: (1) the form of Islam that President Bush praises and is embraced by most Muslims is not Mohammed's Koranic Islam, but a modernist "Islam Lite," formed by liberalizing/watering-down influences; and (2) genuine Mohammedan Islam is the violent form that we hate, and (3) the Koran really promotes this malevolent form of Islam.

This helps us understand why Islam violently overran the Middle East, Northern Africa, and parts of Europe during the second millennium. In view of such a millennium-long history of killing and forced conversions, how could "People all over the place" (including me and the president) have even thought of applying the label, "peaceful, non-violent religion" to Islam? It was wishful thinking. Our minds hiccuped. We thought and hoped that the "Islam Lite" which we respect is the only genuine Islam, when it really is not. Instead, the Islam of the protesting, pro-bin-Laden mobs in various lands is also a legitimate form of Islam (and maybe the only truly genuine, historic form).

[Please agree or disagree, if you wish, without concern that I will contradict. As mentioned in another context, I will not fight against opposing opinions.]

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 10, 2001.

I think that everyone must admit that the world changed dramatically on September 11, 2001.
It is absolutely eerie to review the unintentionally "prophetic" messages that were posted above, in this thread, during the week leading up to the acts of war perpetrated by Muslim terrorists:

[From Larry, American-born Muslim, on 09/06:] "Right now in Taliban it is against the law to teach Christianity, the punishment is death. Does that make it correct because it is in the proper cultural context. Of course not. Once again I will tell you that, what is going on there is not Islamic. It is their country and they make the rules. That doesn't make it right. Has it been spoken out against, truthfully I do not know."

[From Eugene, Catholic, on 09/08:] "Every day it becomes more apparent that Muslims don't want peace and brotherhood with the 'infidels.' They only want an end to all their enemies, whether it takes war, terrorism, or conversion to Islam. --Jihad, Fatwah, Taliban rule, murders, bombings, and hate. All this is an apparent fact of daily life when you face the Muslim peoples of the world. It happens in Pakistan, Afghanistan, all the middle east, and African states. Deaths by the tens of thousands; terrorist threats all over the world, kidnappings and massacres of innocent people. 'By their works you shall know them.' It isn't necessary to be repeating this. If you counter once more with a recital of all the injustices by the non-Muslim peoples, I only answer this way: They may be uncharitable and violent in some cases (such as the racism, and lynchings and imperialism you denounced)-- But they are groups of evil men that perpetrate these crimes. Not men, women and children of a majority in whole countries, such as the Muslim societies. The crimes of western society, moreover, are not unpunished. People go to prison for hate crimes. They pay for their evil works. In places like Pakistan, Libya; Indonesia and all over Asia --Muslims are free on their streets after committing heinous crimes! Nobody calls them to account. NOT EVEN OSTENSIBLY GOOD PEOPLE LIKE YOU! I'll say it once more: 'By their works you shall know them.'"

[From Levent, Turkish Muslim, on 09/08:] "We do believe that a 'false Prophet' will come and it will be the anti-christ, Al-Dajjal. This is one of the major signs of judgement day. Unfortunately, you feel that the Prophet [Muhammad] is he. A minor sign [of judgement day] is, Killing, killing, killing. ... Killing will increase. This is a Hadeeth [oral teaching] of the Prophet. And you are right, Eugene it is increasing."

[From Levent, on 09/08:] "If Muslims were hostile towards other religions, you would see American Musims killing people here or Europe. Like Larry and I have said, "What goes on in the Middle East is different". ... I will not force you to become a Muslim but I wouldn't sit there and have Islam slandered, either. I believe two programs will be coming on TV this Fall will do more than enough to slander Islam. It is these types of sterotyping that gets Muslims upset, rightfully."

[From John, Catholic, on 09/08:] "Much, if not almost all, of the crimes, terrorism, 'legal injustice,' etc., is being perpetrated around the world by Shiites (and perhaps other non-Sunni factions). And here is the key item ... Many of these evil people claim that what they are doing is permitted or even required by Islam. And that is EXACTLY why non-Muslims everywhere, including the media, mention that perpetrators are Muslims. They THEMSELVES link their actions to their religion! Examples: (a) They speak of "holy war" (violence + religion); and (b) two of the most notorious terrorist groups are called 'Islamic Jihad' (terrorism + religion) and 'Hezbollah,' an alternate spelling of 'Hizb-Allah' = "Party of God" (terrorism + religion). So now you see why I believe Larry and Levent are Sunnis (or non-Shiites). They want nothing to do with those crimes, so they conveniently 'excommunicate' the non-Sunni criminals (and their ayatollahs, etc.) from Islam itself! The acts of outrageous violence perpetrated by Muslims (probably mainly Shiites) have been going on and on for 25 years or more. Non-Muslims are fed up with this."
[Ironically, the Taliban and Al Quaeda are Sunnis (as are many other Muslim terrorists, I have since learned)! JFG 10/14]

[From Levent on 09/09:] "Okay, so Muslims kill people and when you see it on TV, you naturally 'assume' that all Muslims kill. That is your opinion, that Muslims are turban wearing people in the Middle East proclaiming 'Jihad' (which has been interpreted by the media) doing suicide bombings, and killing anyone that is a Non-Muslim. We have been trying to say that not all Muslims are like that but I guess the media has more influence than I do. That is cool. Maybe that should be a wake-up call to all Muslims. ... I chuckle when you say that the Prophet is a 'false Prophet' but it is the opposite. I am very saddened because the information is out there and it is very clear. When that time comes, people will be in for a big surprise [but] then it will be too late."

[From John, on 09/09:] "Levent ... [w]hy did you exagerrate? ... The media NEVER tells the non-Muslim public that all Muslims are bad, that they are likely to kill/bomb/hijack, etc.. ... The point I made ... was that there has been SO MUCH killing by Muslims (probably mostly Shiites, using Islam as an excuse) for SO LONG that non-Muslims all over the world very logically (1) associate terrorism with Islam and (2) have at least a bit of healthy distrust for every Muslim they now meet, until they can determine that the Muslim is good and can be trusted. ... [N]on-Muslims never know which Muslim they meet is capable of crimes that would harm them. It could be any Muslim whom they meet! And that fear/distrust has been caused by so much killing/hijcacking/etc. for so many years by people who tie their actions to their sect within Islam. Consequently, the decent Muslims of the world (like you, Levent) have seen the world's air poisoned by the bad ones. And here is the key point ... If the bad ones had never linked their crimes with their religion, then there would be no 'poisoned air' now for good people like you. But they DID link their crimes with Islam ... and the situation is now probably like an incurable disease. Not only do non-Muslims now distrust every Muslim that they meet, but ... non-Muslims would not, for a minute, consider converting to Islam. They don't want to belong to a religion that has been linked, by so many events, with injustice and insane acts of violence."

[From Levent, 09/09:] "One show, about one Muslim being a terrorist is enough to persuade numerous people into believing that all Muslims are evil. ... For so many years Russia and Afghanistan were at war and innocent people were dying. How many people from the West knew about this, including myself. Very little. Now, Afghanistan does this and knocks a statue down. People are very interested in what this country does. Then words like Jihad, Shariah, Hizb-Allah are used out of context by the media. Ask any non-Muslim and they will say that Jihad means holy war. True, but that is not the only meaning. It also deals with Spiritual. But the media doesn't want that other meaning because it doesn't bring in ratings."

[From John, 09/10, the day before USAma bin Laden attacked:]
Levent ... you are wrong to think that it would be logical for us Catholics in the U.S. to fear and distrust all Protestants. The violence is Northern Ireland is isolated to that corner of the world. Neither side in Belfast is sending terrorists all over the world to do hijackings, bombings of skyscrapers, bombings of embassies -- but some Muslim groups do send such warriors abroad! Neither side in Belfast is imposing incredibly inhumane laws on their foes -- but some Muslims do impose Islamic (Sharia) law on everyone, even non-Muslims, in their nations, and they would like to see Sharia imposed on every nation on earth! Neither side in Belfast is using planes to bomb civilians in villages nor enslaving their enemies' children nor attempting to engage in forced conversions -- but some Muslims (at least in Sudan) do! Neither side in Belfast is using and making heroes out of suicide bombers -- but some Muslims do. And neither side in Belfast is saying that all people of the opposing faith ought to be killed -- as some Muslims say about Jews in Israel. ... [I]t is only a natural reaction in human nature for non-Muslims all over the world to fear/distrust Muslims, because their terror is vastly more barbaric and is exported internationally. Even so ... that fear/distrust fades away in specific cases, when non-Muslims become confident that their Muslim neighbors and co-workers are from a peace-loving, respectful group."

[A post-script: Larry, Levent, and one or two other Muslim visitors we had in 2001 never returned to this forum after the madmen struck on September 11.]

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 14, 2001.