I raise sheep and was thinking of looking for a herding dog. I live in a growing area and have access to a ravine/field about 20 acres. There are about 6 houses built around this ravine. I want to know if a dog would keep the sheep in this ravine and off of lawns? If so, how would I train this dog? What would a good breed of dog be? It would need to be good around kids (goat and human). I know the best thing would be too put up fence but if I didn't need to, I wouldn't.

-- Dave in WI (Kabby@ITOL.com), September 03, 2001

Answers

We use a farmcollie-and love her. In fact we are going to get a second. Depending on how many sheep you have-you mihgt do well with more than one too.

there are a couple of litters on the ground now and another due in a few days.

here is a website for you the american Working Farmcolie Association

http://www.geocities.com/farmcollie1/index.html

ther are a couple of others who have these dogs who post here. and there are others who have bordercollies and other breeds. I don't know lots about either-though I know more than one bc who needs to be pened when not working or she works the sheep constantly. I would say that to avoid that-you probably need to do your homework about the lineage of the pup you are consdiering.

Hope that helps,

Sarah

-- sarah (heartsongacres@juno.com), September 03, 2001.

Dave, I feel it is a tall order for the dog. No doubt a good dog will do the job most of the time but I am not sure about every day for weeks and weeks along with whatever distractions might come along.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), September 04, 2001.

Not a good idea to leave a herding dog alone all day with sheep .They will sometimes just keep working them .If you are lucky enough to not have the dog wonder out of its "space" you still have to worry about people wondering in .Some will be very protective of there flock , or some might just get excited and jump or nip .In any case in this day and age you could face a lawsuit .I would fence and use a dog to move them .Make sure yo look at many different breeds you have , farm collies ,border collies ,australian sheperds ,australian cattle dogs , german sheperds and I am sure I left out 1 or 2.I have a cattle dog and love her .She herds wonderful without training and is also protective of stock,children and home .She does not herd the children .

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), September 04, 2001.

I agree. Sounds like an unusual request for a dog. What about the kids around those 6 houses? 4 wheelers? I wouldn't want to leave sheep and a dog out in a condition like that, no fence.

My BC's can stay in the field and not herd the animals. A BC's instinct is to bring them to you though, when you left, they would want to bring them on home. How about a simple electric fence, maybe 5 acres at a time?

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), September 04, 2001.

Mine is still only a baby {6 months} all she wants to do is herd !She ran up to calfs she thought where loose only to find that they where chained .You could see the disappointment in her face , it was like ow Mom now I can't play !

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), September 04, 2001.

This sounds like comparing oranges and apples to me. First of all you are looking for a LGD, livestock guard dog, not a herding dog. The LGD's include Great Pyrenees, Anatolian Shepherds, Maremma's and Kuvazs, among others. Herding dogs are border collies primarily, but can include farm collies, australian shepherds and german shepherds. The herding dog will be constantly in motion and will want to keep the sheep moving.Once he gets them moved, he will go back to you and not really stay with them 24/7. The LGD will stay with the sheep as they graze or sleep ,and protect them from predators. But keeping them in that ravine area with no fence can give you all kind of problems. The LGD will look upon 2 legged strangers as predators also. You could be liable if he goes after someone and bites them. Also the fence sets the boundries for the dogs area as well, or you could have your sheep in the next county with the dog in tow. If you are not into fencing due to the expense and labor, look into the portable electronet systems. They set up easily, can be moved quickly and in remote areas can be charged with a battery or solar panel, depending on your climate.

-- Kate henderson (kate@sheepyvalley.com), September 04, 2001.

Maybe not really relevant to this discussion but pioneer sheep run holders in NZ would occasionally take sheep and a dog into a grazing area and leave something personal on the ground such as an old coat. The dog would stay with the coat and keep the sheep in the general vicinity until the owner came back maybe a day or so later.

One famous NZ sheep thief named McKenzie used a vriation of this technique to steal flocks. He would take his dog and the coat to an isolated area then return with the dog. Together they would round up someone else's sheep which the dog would take to the place where the coat had been left. McKenzie of course was in the bar establishing his alibi. McKenzie used a border collie.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), September 05, 2001.

Kate, Just to clarify about the farmcollies. American Working Farmcollies really can't be lumped in with BC's and other herding breeds. They do have guardian instincts that allow them to perform much like the LGDs, with the added ability to move the stock and the smarts to be able to think independently and discern when to do which. Some farmcollies are more on the guardian end of the spectrum, some more on the herding end. But they are bred to be truly multi-purpose. They would tend to be more bonded to their owner than say a Pyrenees or Maremma. Most have that collie-like temperment which makes them a lovely family dog.

-- Amy (gshep@aeroinc.net), September 05, 2001.

Yes, but wouldn't the farm collie want to be near his"people" and not left with the sheep 24/7? Just wondering.

-- Kate henderson (kate@sheepyvalley.com), September 05, 2001.

McKenzie's dog was happy to stay near the owner's coat once the owner was out of sight. Still, I think the task would be too much for any dog.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), September 05, 2001.

You may have a point Kate, but I don't know what Dave is thinking of as far as how much time the sheep would be in this ravine. I think a farmcollie could watch over the sheep for periods of time. Maybe not 24/7 tho. I agree that its a tall order for any dog. And Dave,if you're considering getting a pup it will be quite a while till you can ask that for that kind of work from it.

-- Amy (gshep@aeroinc.net), September 05, 2001.

Thanx everyone for all the feedback. I forsee another fencing project in my future. I didn't plan on leaving the sheep and dog out all the time. My plan was to let them out on my off days and put them back in the fenced pasture at night and when I am at work. I think I will wait until I have the fence up. I am still interested in a herding dog. Probably a BC.

-- Dave in WI (Kabby@itol.com), September 07, 2001.