For those of you who own and use the Sinar Copal Shutter. Have you found that it is very hard to get them to fit onto the camera. I put mine on the camera and cannot seem to get it close enough so that the clip will close down. What did you do if you had that problem.

Kevin

-- Kevin Kolosky (kjkolosky@kjkolosky.com), September 07, 2001

Answers

Kevin, you will excuse me for mentioning it, but somehow in the past I've gotten the impression that you only use lenses in barrell, because shutters somehow destroy the sharpness. At the time, I did not agree with your POV, and wonder if you have changed your mind. Regards.

-- Wilhelm (bmitch@home.com), September 07, 2001.

Kevin,

There are two rubber strips on the front shutter face, I took them off, and then my shutter goes onto my camera easily and securely. I don't really know why they are there and what they are used for. I know there are different versions of Sinar Copal shutters and different versions of Sinar camera front standards, maybe our camera and shutter versions do NOT match. I'd like to see some expert explanations on this thread.

Wilhelm,

The Sinar Copal shutter is great for those barrel soft focus lenses.

Cheers,

-- Geoffrey Chen (DB45TEK@AOL.COM), September 07, 2001.

My point of view remains the same. Shutters create vibration, and vibration destroys sharpness. The tradeoff in using the shutter is of course accuracy in exposure.I just purchased the shutter two days ago. If it ruins my sharpness I will sell it. Kevin

-- Kevin Kolosky (kjkolosky@kjkolosky.com), September 07, 2001.

"Shutters create vibration, and vibration"

Especially the one you just bought.

The shutter (mechanical) with the least vibration is the Prontor Professional and many studios do multiple pops on this shutter with no sign of ghosting.

Why is it that all those studios shooting large format, medium format and 35mm don't have the same complaint you do while using shutters/

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), September 08, 2001.

why is it that all of those studios don't have the same comlaint as I do? I don't know. I am not them. I do agree. this Sinar shutter creates one hell of a vibration.

-- Kevin Kolosky (kjkolosky@kjkolosky.com), September 08, 2001.

"why is it that all of those studios don't have the same comlaint as I do? I don't know"

Usually that is a sign of differing technique.

It is obvious that they are not trying to obtain vibration as ther is none in their work.

As an example John Sexton with his Power Plant series all done with a light weight field camerta (metal)

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), September 08, 2001.

I don't know that I am trying to obtain vibration. I think it is a law of nature. I learned my view camera technique a long time ago when a student at Brooks Institute. I doubt it is much different from other techniques.

Kevin

-- Kevin Kolosky (kjkolosky@kjkolosky.com), September 08, 2001.

Sorry Kevin, I don't buy it.

Lots of Brooks, RIT, Ohio, Hawkeye and all type of other students use shutters with proper results.

We have sold 10s of 1000s of lenses in shutters from Zeiss (Prontor and Compur), Copal, Horseman and Rollei with 0 complaints regarding any, much less excessive, vibration.

Your stance sounds more like a mantra. It certainly isn't factual.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), September 08, 2001.

Bob

Say what you like. Doesnt bother me.

Kevin

-- Kevin Kolosky (kjkolosky@kjkolosky.com), September 08, 2001.

Bob,

Comparing Sinar Copal shutter and Compur or Protonor shutter is like comparing apple and orange. Their vibration levels are NOT on the same magnitude. When you fire a Sinar Copal shutter, you feel like you have had your lens mounted on 10 Compur #3 shutters and fire them all together. It's Load, period!

Kevin,

If your Sinar Copal shutter has excessive vibration during exposure, you might want to have it checked by your local Sinar dealers or the Great Steve K. Grimes. It might just need a lube job. I have used my Shutter Copal shutter and exposed a number of 8x10s (with C. P. Goerz Dagor 420/7.7) and have NOT yet had any sharpness issues. Sinar Copal shutter has been in the business for quite some time. If it could cause sharpness problems, it would have been put out of business long time ago. In fact I haven't heard complaints from my friends. They still use Sinar Copal shutter for their commercial assignments in New York City. Take your sharpest lens and try it. I wonder where those experts go? Cheers,

-- Geoffrey Chen (DB45TEK@AOL.COM), September 08, 2001.

I defy Kevin to show us shots taken with a sharp lens in a modern between the lens shutter and the same lens in NF mount that illustrates his point.

Having sold tens of thousands of lenses in and out of shutter for all LF and many MF cameras we are yet to have a single person in the past 25 years make or illustrate the point he makes.

Yes the behind the lens shutter is not the same as a Copal/Compur/Prontor Professional/Rollei Linear Motor/Horseman ISS shuttter.

Sounds more like an improper tripod.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), September 09, 2001.

I own and use a Zone VI heavy duty tripod with the spiked feet. it doesn't move. I practice what I preach and do not own a shuttered lens to do the test. Perhaps you would like to send me one Bob. Kevin

-- Kevin Kolosky (kjkolosky@kjkolosky.com), September 09, 2001.

Make sure that your Sinar shutter isn't bent and that the groove it slides into is clean. It should slide in very easily. Never force anything on a Sinar... IT WILL BREAK!!!. I love my Sinar and its' components but they are more fragile than they need to be, so always proceed with caution when changing or removing parts.

As for the vibration thing,if it vibrates enough to mess up a photo then it's broken. No lens shitter that is in proper working order would cause enough vibration to cause a lack of shrpness in a photo, especially not a Sinar

-- Wil Hinds (Ytb@aol.com), September 09, 2001.

The winner of the Prize is Geoffrey. Thanks Geoffrey for answering the question that I asked. I took the two rubber pieces out of the grooves and now the shutter fits right in there and locks up tightly. I will replace the rubber pieces with a couple of pieces of felt,which should serve as well in keeping stray light out but will not be so thick as to keep the shutter from fitting on the camera.

Thanks again Geoffrey. And thanks to everyone else as well. That is what makes this forum great, to express opinions whether agreed upon or not.

Kevin

-- Kevin Kolosky (kjkolosky@kjkolosky.com), September 09, 2001.

you should call sinar bron. they are very helpful. removing rubber strips may be the wrong answer - there's a good chance sinar meant them to be there. when you speak with them ask about the proper technique to use the shutter. i have seen a lot of people do it wrong and think the shutter was broken until they learned. the way you press the cable release is very important. thousands of top pros use this shutter successfully with no vibration problems and have been doing so for decades. actually this is the first time i've heard a complaint about shutter vibration without being specifically about multiple exposures.

by the way, what is a better solution, regardless of timing, than a mechanical (or electronic) shutter?

-- adam (asfberg@hotmail.com), September 09, 2001.

What is even more confusing is that with all of the people who have attended Brooks Institute of photography and who probably also had the same instructor this is the first time this has been brought up.

Of course not using a shutter can cause all kinds of other problems. Shooting at small enough apertures to do daylight exposures on normal speed films would usually require a very small aperture to allow accurate manual timing. This, of course, is a perfect way to lose quality due to diffraction and, possibly, vibration during that extended period.

of course doing this inside with flash requires open flash and possibly multiple pops in a totally dark room. Vey inconveniet way to work.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), September 09, 2001.

Once again, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Perhaps the rubber is there to dampen vibration. But again, the shutter (a F4 model) would not fit on the 8 x 10 camera without the rubber coming off. I have now put felt in the same place as the rubber and it works fine. Its off to the Owens valley on Wednesday. By the way, does anyone know how to keep a sinar 8 x 10 bellows from sagging. I don't see anything listed in their catologs. Kevin

-- Kevin Kolosky (kjkolosky@kjkolosky.com), September 09, 2001.

The shutter (mechanical) with the least vibration is the Prontor Professional and many studios do multiple pops on this shutter with no sign of ghosting

Because it is self-cocking, the Prontor requires more force than a standard Copal. I have found the vibration induced by the same cable release to be significantly higher. It could be that the shutter itself vibrate less, but I am not sure how significant this fact is, given the previous one. Correct me if I am wrong.

-- Q.-Tuan Luong (qtl@ai.sri.com), September 10, 2001.

"Prontor"

Prontor Press or prontor Professional?

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), September 10, 2001.

Bob, I compared the Prontor Professional 1s with a copal 1.

-- Q.-Tuan Luong (qtl@ai.sri.com), September 10, 2001.

"but I am not sure how significant this fact is, given the previous one."

We have sold lenses to some large studios that do product and food photography on 810 at small stops where multiple pops were needed to reach the desired aperture.

they found that using regular Copal and Compur shutters for mutiple pops that they frequently ended up with slight ghost imaging from vibration in the shutters.

When they swithched to the Prontor Professional this problem disappeared.

Furthermore they frequently shoot from a high viewpoint using long lenses at close ratios on 810. This results in very long bellows extension where it is almost impossible to get to the lens to set aperture, shutter speed, open the press focus, etc.

The Prontor Professional allows the user to set aperture and shutter speed (if desired) from behind the camera as well as to open the shutter for focusing, close it to taking aperture to check DOF and close it to taking aperture and fire it all from behind the camera.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), September 11, 2001.

Bob, wouldn't be that the ghosting is due to the fact that with the copals you have to recock, therefore possibly disturbing the camera or lens ?

-- Q.-Tuan Luong (qtl@ai.sri.com), September 11, 2001.

Tuan,

These were very, very experienced studios. They knew they had to wait after cocking the shutter.

The vibration was from the shutter.

-- Bob Salomon (bob@hpmarketingcorp.com), September 11, 2001.

Bob, what I am suggesting is that recocking a copal might disturb the lens or camera position. If that happens you can wait one day and still have ghosting. Also I am not entirely convinced that a shot done with electronic flash would show ghosting due to shutter vibration. I suggest that the reasons these studios got better result with the Prontor Professional is just that they didn't have to recock the shutter. After all that's the main reason I got one myself. You haven't convinced me that it is because the Prontor vibrates less (I personally think it vibrates more).

-- Q.-Tuan Luong (qtl@ai.sri.com), September 12, 2001.