The Whole World Can See : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread

When the events of this morning are assessed by the world, it has to become obvious to any civilized person, no matter his or her faith, where the Muslim faith is leading its people.

In the last few days we in this Catholic forum attempted a reasonable dialogue with a few Muslims. Our interest was in a religious context; and it quickly became apparent to me at least, that the Quraan and the Holy Bible have very little in common.

Some will say I overreact, and remind us that faith in Allah is what makes the Quraan holy; and Muslims clearly believe it is holier than our Holy Bible. Our visitors claimed to have ''respect'' for our Holy Book, and for Christians. But they dismiss any interpretation of our Bible which might make of Jesus Christ anthing more than a ''holy prophet.'' If we believe He is divine, they can dispassionately laugh at the idea. Thus, they simply laugh at the Word of God, revealed by Jesus Himself; who confirmed the truth of His words by truly rising from the dead.

At the point I just described, I had no choice except to declare as a Christian that the Quraan is a book written independently by a false prophet. It can't be the Word of God if it denies Our Lord Jesus Christ. --And so, what is it, really?

Only a flawed premise of faith in a monothesitic deity, Allah, with no authority from Our Creator. It stands as a heretical work stemming from ancient Judaism, and is embraced as the truth by nothing less than a fanatical society. A society so fanatical that it has no real religious faith at all; but rather an unlimited capacity for doing harm to its neighbors.

What has happened today in New York City and Washington D.C. bears out once more in the most urgent terms all we need to know about false prophets, and about the Anti-Christ. By their works we shall know them. No religion has the mission on earth to promote hate, and that is practically all we ever see from Muslims in our day and age: HATE. We've spoken with at least 3 followers of the prophet Muhammad in this forum. They entered under a pretense of respect for us; and to make it clear that Islam is a holy religion. They maintained that anti-Islamic news media have fostered a nasty stereotype of the Muslim people, who are unfairly associated with the criminal acts of a few ''government leaders'' and heretical sects.

But I'm afraid a clearer judgment is to be had by simple observation. The obscene attacks on our country this morning by a band of fanatics makes all the lip service to Allah simply false, self-serving and devilish. It won't be long before Larry and Levent and Bobak return to say they have nothing to do with these indecent men. All I'm prepared to say in response is, ''You learned from the same master, Muhammad the prophet. He is the teacher you all love and presume to be infallible.''

By his works we shall know him, and the world now knows him. If I were a Muslim, this is the day in which I would open my eyes to the sad truth. Goodbye, illusions of the Quraan. Lord have mercy on us; Jesus Christ, save us! And to Muhammad: ''Depart from us, Satan.''

-- eugene c. chavez (, September 11, 2001



Sacred Heart of Jesus, have mercy on us!

-- eugene c. chavez (, September 11, 2001.


I immediately thought of this forum and our attempt at inter- religious dialog with our Muslim visitors. It was one of the first things my mind raced toward...and I'm ashamed of my initial feelings once it did. Thankfully, since I work for my parish, I was able to attend our prayer service at lunch today, and in so doing, ask for forgiveness of my anger and offer my prayers for those that were touched by the tragedies.

"Put on the armor of God so that you may be able to stand firm against the tactics of the devil. For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities, with the powers, with the world rulers of this present darkness, with the evil spirits in the heavens. Therefore put on the armor of God, that you may be able to resist on the evil day and, having done everything, to hold your ground. So stand fast with your loins girded in truth, clothed with righteousness as a breastplate, and your feet shod in readiness for the gospel of peace. In all circumstances, hold faith as a shield, to quench all {the} flaming arrows of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit; which is the word of God." (Ephesians 6:11-17)

Peace and all good, Melissa


-- Melissa Wilson (, September 11, 2001.

Hi, Melissa--
Anger there is, and in some hearts, it's an unforgiving anger. But in no way is my last post an angry expression. It's only a repeat of the very arguments I've had with a few bright men of the Islamic faith in this forum. If we wish to know where the false prophet is, let's look at the works.

Nobody with their eyes open considers terrorist acts such as today's an isolated example of nationalist pride or resistance to oppression. As if a vast majority of Muslims believed in peace and brotherhood. --It's nothing less than fanatical devotion to a false prophet! Every hijacker on board the planes involved in the wholesale murder of innocent people today is a Muslim; a ''good'' Muslim and a ''martyr''. This is what their religion calls ''doing the Will of the Prophet.''

Not one of these men doubted they had the Quraan on their side, the word of Allah!

So we have a few people come here with a ''different'' Islam, and claiming they are the TRUE Muslims. I have to ask; ''Please-- Don't tell us you are the Muslims of the Quraan, God's faithful. The ones that call themselves ''martyrs'' are just as certain they're the ''good'' Muslims. The awful fact is, all of you follow the Prophet! He is the worker of these works; by his teachings of ''Allah's Will''. They only do as he taught them. Those poor dupes thought that by tonight they'd be enjoying a love-feast with their 77 virgin brides, and lolling around on silk carpets in the Paradise of Allah. Because the Prophet told them so!

So who are we fooling, when we see the works they do? WHO will the Anti-Christ be, Melissa, IF NOT a Muslim prophet??? We do right to pray; pray for all our lives. The events of today are just a beginning.

-- eugene c. chavez (, September 11, 2001.

In such trying times as these we must be careful to let the Christian faith we have been cultivating go to work and strengthen us and guide us to the proper and appropriate course of action. Christ would not condemn a people for the actions of a few and neither should we. The Muslim people are no more to blame for these atrocities against Americans than Christians are to blame for the atrocities committed against Americans in Oklahoma City by Timothy McVeigh.

On behalf of all Canadians I would like to convey our heartfelt condolences for the tremendous loss suffered by the American people today. It is important to remember to pray at times like these as it is when we are suffering the most, that our merciful God listens to our petitions the most intently.

Most Sacred Heart of Jesus, assist us in our hour of need.


-- Ed Lauzon (, September 11, 2001.

Brothers and sisters,

Each day, I join about 3,000 other Defense Department employees and private contractors to work in a big building, definitely a potential target, about 15 miles from the Pentagon.

I arrived at work at 8:15 today and was not informed of what was happening in New York and nearby until about 10:00. (The towers were hit at about 9:00.) Though permitted to leave at 10:30, I did not depart until noon.

I want to publicly thank my guardian angel for protecting me today and I want to thank God for preserving me from a "sudden and unprovided for" death.

I am struggling to remain calm and not assess a blanket blame to any nation or to all the people who practice a single religion. I don't want to say anything premature that I might regret later, because I remember that some people were too quickly (and inaccurately) blamed for the Oklahoma City bombing.

If it is proved, in the days ahead, that these crimes were perpetrated by people who practice a certain religion, I will blame those people only (not their co-religionists) and I will seek to determine if (and how) the tenets of that religion may have played a part in their action.

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Eternal rest grant unto the victims, Lord, and let your perpetual light shine upon them. Requiescant In Pace. Amen.

A Catholic friend

-- (a@frequent.contributor), September 11, 2001.

If the last two posters here failed to understand what I said, I'll say it clearer.

Nothing in my post inclines toward the punishment or even blaming of the ''people'', for their ethnic origins. I'm only posing the obvious, which is that they follow a false prophet. Or are we to ignore the works of the prophet Muhammad; the founder of a militant and very often heartless religion? We can only rely, as I said, on the words of Our Lord: ''By their works you shall know them.''

The entire direction of my message has been an attempt at pointing out the obvious: a false prophet is misleading by now an immense portion of humanity. We can practice our faith best by charitable co-existence, of course. But how are we to judge a false prophet, if we never denounce his evil? Not by intolerance against his followers. But by rejecting emphatically a religion founded by someone very likely to be an Anti-Christ? It's about time we faced facts!

-- eugene c. chavez (, September 11, 2001.

If the last poster here failed to understand what I said, I'll say it clearer.

If there was once an evil false prophet (and there probably was), and if his religion teaches not just good things, but also some evil things (which it probably does), and if it becomes clear that some of his followers killed thousands today (and they probably did), THEN with a very loud voice I will denounce the prophet and his puppets and the evil teachings.

And even if it becomes clear that the killers were unexpectedly from a different quarter, I will STILL denounce the prophet (if he was false and evil) and his religion's doctrines (if some are evil).

I just want to approach this in a methodical, deliberate way.

A Catholic friend

-- (a@frequent.contributor), September 11, 2001.

a couple of observations, the naivite of some, i don't believe does much to engender a sense of security. do you think maybe pope urban ii (i think) knew what he was doing when he commissioned the crusades to rid the holy land of the infidels? did they (the infidels) go through northern africa and into spain with the battle cry "embrace allah or die?" are not the muslims, sorry, the ethnic albanians, warring in much of what is left of yougoslavia? are we the united states helping them in their war against, serbia, macedonia, kosova? is their ex leader not imprisoned in the hague for standing up against their insurgency? are moslems blowing up churches in macedonia? are moslems killing christians in east timor: nigeria, phillipines, chechnya? can a roman collar be worn in saudi arabia? unfortunately eugene, you are on the mark. pax domini...juan

-- juan d. (, September 12, 2001.


I'm not certain I "get" your post just after mine. I kinda got the feeling I was being chastised...I'm sure that was not your intent. I only offered a simple scripture to help us all with our prayers, as we try to make sense of senselessness. Forgive me if I misunderstood your message.

All peace and good, Melissa


-- Melissa (, September 12, 2001.

Dear Melissa,
Please have patience with me, if I've replied uncharitably. Your post may have seemed for the moment overly self-effacing, on a day when emotions ran high. Ed Lauzan too, meant well. His cautionary statements are clearly charitable, and he only advised restraint.

In turn, I'll say in my favor that I wasn't condemning every Muslim as a threat, or as a fanatic. The popular way to describe Tuesday's skyjackers is as ''Fundamentalist Muslims''.

Does it make anybody feel less angry? It shouldn't. It ought to be very sobering and horrifying, that any segment of a religious faithful engages in mass-murder. It should be apparent by now that these people are in a religious frenzy, when they're openly indoctrinating little boys for suicidal missions. All for the glory of Islam and the Prophet!!!

So, when I read your post-- asking God's forgiveness for your ''anger''; I wondered. Who is going to STAND UP to this challenge? Anti-Christ is at the door, and we're all too feminized to sound the alarm! But believe me; I'm just as confused as any of us ! I'm already praying, ''Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!''

-- eugene c. chavez (, September 12, 2001.

Thank you for your candor, Eugene.

My post was certainly not meant to be self-effacing. I posted after a prayer service in which I was reminded by my pastor just how Christians are called to live. I recognized that I had not been living as He would expect me to live...and when I stumbled upon that reading from Ephesians yesterday, it helped me turn my predjudiced, retaliatory anger into "righteous" anger. I agree that we should remember that this was an attack by a few fundamentalist Muslims, and is not indicative of the whole religion. That's why I posted as I initial knee-jerk reaction and American loyalties bubbled to the surface with a blanket judgement of all Muslims...and for that I was seeking God's forgiveness of such anger. Not that I was calling us to all be passive and feminine about it.

Which come to think about it, Eugene...should I be upset about that feminine comment of yours? ;-)

I apologize for not being clearer in earlier postings...



-- Melissa (, September 12, 2001.

I'm not blaming ALL Muslims for the actions of the few. ACTIONS, I said. I do blame a vast majority of them for being sympathizers with the extremist terrorists. Naturally, you wouldn't hear that many immigrated Muslims in the U.S. speaking out about it. But all of us know very well the streets of Teheran, and Bagdad, and all over Egypt, Jordan, Palestine and Beirut-- are all in euphoria this morning. It's the Will of Allah, don't you see? Why?

Because they all see the New York tragedy as a victory for Islam. We had better look at the facts without our rose-colored glasses. They certainly BELIEVE it's a holy war; and we're the enemy. It IS indicative of the whole religion; we'd best understand it!

-- eugene c. chavez (, September 12, 2001.

Well, it seems I continually fail to say the right thing within this thread, so I will say nothing more...just...

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

Peace and all good, Melissa


-- Melissa (, September 12, 2001.


I can't see anyone arguing with your last post.

-- (@ .), September 12, 2001.


When I read what you have written here. I picture in my mind an army of mindless murderous Muslims being led by the devil. Theirs is a religious war against Jews and Christians and most all Muslims in the world are warriors. Is this a decent image or am I off a bit?

Anyways, if this is what you present and they have advanced this war in a radical way, what do you suggest we do?

We've got the capacity to blow them all to hell. We've got God on our side, which always makes the killing far less reprehensible. As a matter of fact, if this is religious we have an obligation, as a Christian nation, to fully engage in this war.

Your broad brush strokes make me very uneasy Eugene. I know I'm taking a few strokes here myself but I believe with no uncertainty that I do not want to see another innocent person killed in the name of God or anybody else for that matter, no matter what religion they may be, which makes it very important that we define the enemy very carefully. Much more carefully than you are doing here.

-- Chris Coose (, September 12, 2001.

Chris Coose-- Don't picture my words in any way whatever. You haven't got the imagination nor the will to see it my way. Let me say it again: My entire set of postings has been directed at Muhammad and the teachings of Muhammad. Not for one moment any of Chris Coose's caricatures:

I picture in my mind an army of mindless murderous Muslims being led by the devil. Theirs is a religious war against Jews and Christians and most all Muslims in the world are warriors.

I have repeatedly stated the way to identify a false prophet; by his works. If you have a problem with that, check the words of Jesus Christ (Matt, 24:24). If you DON'T think a follower of Muhammad has to explain why his works include destroying New York City and the Pentagon, and you believe Muhammad has nothing at all to do with it, just say so. You have a right to your opinion. You are so hung up on ''diversity'' for its own sake, you wouldn't say CA-CA if you had a mouth full of it! ''Define the enemy?'' I already did. The false Prophet! They do exist, you see. Christ said so!

-- eugene c. chavez (, September 12, 2001.

Chris C.,

That's the problem here. While you don't wish to see innocent people hurt, your enemy is trying to hurt as many of our innocent people as possible. How many innocent people will have to die before you are willing to kill an innocent person yourself to stop it?

As an example, the plane that went down over Pittsburg, here's a hypothetical: pretend for a moment the pilot on board regained control from the terrorists long enough to drive the plane into the ground. Would you call him a terrorist himself (and evil) for killing the innocents on his plane, or a hero (and good) for protecting the lives of more innocents who would have likely died had the terrorists had their way? Personally I'd call him a hero. You however, might say that he should have reasoned with the terrorists, and if they stabbed him and drove the plane into the White House, that was the better end, as the pilot wasn't responsible, even if more people died in the end. I don't know, which do you believe would be better?


P.S. Another situation, say for example that we find out Bin Laden or some other terrorist has a nuclear bomb on an airplane full of school children that's currently over the Atlantic, and they've expressed the intent to blow it up when it gets to New York. Would you say we should shoot it down, when in fact it might all be a big bluff? Again, I'd say we would have to. Sometimes a few innocent people have to die to save the majority in wartime. Some people can't face that, some people (those in power) have to, or have their country suffer far greater losses.

It will be interesting to see what if anything Bush does here, that's for sure. May God give him strength and Wisdom, I sure wouldn't want to be in his shoes now!

-- Someone (, September 12, 2001.

So you may have missed my question Eugene.

Since you have defined the enemy so well for us, What do you suggest that we do?

Sorry that my imagery offended you. FYI (for you and someone)I am a C.O. from the Vietnam era and have not had a reason to turn from those beliefs since that time. So: my mouth is not full of crap and I have interest in what you Christian soldiers have in mind

-- Chris Coose (, September 12, 2001.

Chris C.
/ You're making this personal, and there wasn't any reason to do that. What is it I intend to do?

You, SIR, are the one who was objecting. When did I deny *you* your opinion? I had in mind to serve God. His truth (see below) is disputed by a world religion (Islam) and somebody in this Internet forum ought to make it known Islam is a false creed. You, OTOH, take it as Muslim-bashing, if I quote the words of Jesus Christ.

Somewhere early in these discussions I advised a poster against confrontations with a Muslim guest, recalling what happened to the author Salman Rushdie. He was served with a *Fatwah* by some loony ayatollah, who put a price on his head for some years. I figured then, let's be discreet. Since then, I've opted to let the chips fall where they may.

Is an ayatollah in my face? No; Chris Coose is in it! HAA! The C/O is dressing me down! For what indiscretion? For saying the Prophet Muhammad is a fake! On a Catholic forum? How awfully inconsiderate of me!!!

Ask me what I suggest that we do? Well, Chris. You may do anything you please. I will make my opinion known (once more); we have no obligation to Islam; it is a false religion; Muhammad's followers are being deceived! I'll say it from the housetops. It doesn't mean we must hate Muslims. Neither does it excuse injustice toward Muslims. Muslims have human rights, and civil rights--in our country. But their works in many parts of the world are barbaric; they are to be denounced. Their works are not as Christians would expect from the people of God.

Jesus Christ is Our Saviour and Lord. In no uncertain terms we acknowledge Jesus as the only Son of God; and no prophet can come before Him. --Not now, in 2,001 --not ever! Amen!

-- eugene c. chavez (, September 13, 2001.

SEE: Note as indicated above:

The Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us that God the Father has sent His only-begotten Son as True Man-- to save the world from sin. Catholic doctrine upholds and preaches this truth. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and IS God, in the Holy Trinity. We accept this truth as passed on to us by the Holy Apostles in the Catholic Church from the beginning.

The faith called Islam is the word of a man, Muhammad. He is called the Prophet of the Islamic faith. In his teachings on earth, Muhammad denies the Sonship and the Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. This alone is enough to identify him as a FALSE PROPHET, prophesied in the Gospel by Jesus Christ. The same Jesus prophesied to His faithful that the way in which they would know a false prophet was by his works.

The works of Islam in the present are ungodly and barbarous by clear definition. God has chosen to expose to all the world His separation from the Islamic faith through the works of Islam. This is apparent particularly in the brutal and atrocious terrorist acts of Islam's faithful in our day. God can have no part in their sins. As Catholics, we must exhort any Muslim of good will and love for Allah: Come away from a false religion, or suffer eternal ruin.

We do not speak for God, we serve God. In the spirit of true friendship and brotherhood we call to all Muslims again: Come to Jesus Christ and save your immortal souls. Blessed be God Our Father, in His Holy and Eternal Son Jesus; Amen!

-- eugene c. chavez (, September 13, 2001.

Dear Catholic Friend:

I have enjoyed reading your posts in this thread. It has given me an added dimension with which I can better understand what everyone impacted by this horrific act is going through. You provide us with a direct window to individuals directly affected by this and how they are coping. In reading your comments I get a better sense of how we can help (ie. prayer, support, consolation, etc.). I would encourage you to check in with us from time to time and let us know how things are going.

Thank you and God bless,


-- Ed Lauzon (, September 13, 2001.

Dear Ed,
Yes, of course we will keep in touch; and thanks for your friendly note. I'm sorry I've been severe at times. Your help in this forum is always appreciated; please come back frequently. I'll pray for you. God be always with you --

-- eugene c. chavez (, September 13, 2001.

Chris C, We are not in Vietnam era Co! Such pitiful self-centered Arrogance! We are being attacked in Our own Country, for Our Christianity, and our Freedom. This attack is by Muslims, because of Our Belief in the Only God, Jesus Christ! David S

-- David S (, September 13, 2001.

Eugene, I am somewhat embarrassed to admit this but my note was not intended for you but rather for the gentleman who works in Washington for the Federal Government. I apologize I did not make myself more clearer. However, I can unequivocally state that my comments are “ditto” for you too. Although we bash heads from time to time (no real serious damage - those are two hard heads!) I enjoy experiencing your passion for the faith. I too, consider you a friend, albeit a headstrong one (just kidding) and look forward to fencing with you in the future.

You remain in my prayers as well,


-- Ed Lauzon (, September 13, 2001.

Dear Ed--
I saw your post addressing ''Catholic Friend'' immediately following one of mine. It doesn't matter, my reply still stands. Thanks for the follow-up.

Yes, I'm hard-headed. It's from conviction; but I still have to remind myself I'm no apostle of the absolute truth, and should try to learn from others too. Which I have, in this forum.

Through the last day or two, I came close to over-saturating these threads on Islam. I began to contemplate at intervals my own responsibilities to be careful. I have an obligation not to elevate myself in these arguments.

For some reason I recalled the words of that envious nun-- in the old Song of Bernadette film. She asked Saint Bernadette, ''Weren't you just saying you saw her (Our Blessed Mother)-- to make yourself more important, more saintly, in the sight of all of us?'' Bernadette was on the verge of death. The older nun followed with: ''You are soon going to be dead. For your own salvation you must confess, if you made up all the stories of that ''Lady''. --Of course, Bernadette said truthfully, for the last time, ''I did see her. Yes, I did!'' And she died there.

Even so, I hold myself to the same question always. Am I in the argument for my own glory? Is the message a work that God wants me to do, or am I guilty of posturing before this forum? I'm human, and a sinner. I hope God will give me the grace to be humble even when I know I'm right. All of this must be for His Glory alone. There have been instances when I had to pause, and examine my own conscience. Sometimes I wasn't fair to others, and I'm very concerned now about it. I'm sorry, and I'll be more careful. My words aren't important, God's Will is all-important.

Let's all of us remember this. All glory and honour to Him, through Jesus Christ Our Lord, and the Holy Spirit. One God, forever AMEN!

-- eugene c. chavez (, September 13, 2001.



-- Ed Lauzon (, September 13, 2001.

Just received a note from the "Word Among Us" I thought might be worth passing on.

Dear Friend in Christ,

We are sure that you are all aware of the tragic events which occurred this past Tuesday in New York, Washington, D.C., and Pennsylvania. In the midst of this extreme suffering, we wanted to share a few thoughts which we feel God put on our hearts.

During a tragedy like this, we are all filled with incredible sadness for the victims who died and for their families. It is certainly understandable if we experience a loss of confidence in humanity and even feelings of depression. In the midst of our suffering, however, we need to hold on to the truth that somehow, even in the worst of circumstances, Jesus' love and compassion are still with us. God is in control. He is standing next to the victims, next to their families, and next to us. This is a time for all of us to draw close to Jesus and ask him to comfort our nation.

We may also have feelings of anger, vengeance, and hatred against those who perpetrated this horrible act. While we condemn these terrorist acts, we also believe that the best way to deal with our negative feelings is to try to stay in the presence of the Lord. Staying close to Jesus will help keep us calm, peaceful, and clear- minded. It will also move us to ask God to bless President Bush with the wisdom of Solomon as he tries to respond to the attacks on our nation.

For some reason, God allowed these tragic events to happen. We do not know why. However, we do know that God has a loving plan for all of humanity and that he wants to bring good, even out of this horrific tragedy.

Perhaps God's grace will use these events to draw America-and the whole world-closer to him.

Perhaps he will use this tragedy to help make us more grateful for our spouse, our children, our friends, our nation and our world.

Maybe the Lord will use this tragedy to move us to focus a little less on ourselves and a little more on loving and serving others. We all have been touched by the witness of so many in New York and Washington who have gone out of their way to help the victims. Their example inspires all of us to reach out to those around us who are hurting and in need.

This morning, our staff prayed for the whole country, especially those of you in New York and in Washington, and we would like to ask all of you to spend a little more time in prayer this week. Please join us in asking our Heavenly Father to show boundless mercy to the victims and to give a double portion of comfort to their families. Let's ask Jesus to give wisdom to our leaders. Let's ask him to show us how we can make America a better nation as we walk through this most trying and sad time.

Yours truly in Christ,

Jeff Smith President

Joe Difato Publisher

And the entire staff of The Word Among Us


-- Ed Lauzon (, September 13, 2001.

Thank you, Ed.

-- (, September 13, 2001.

Thanks, Ed--
All of us are heartbroken, yes. Many good people are grieving tonight, and will continue feeling this shock and sorrow for a long time. It's a cruel world we live in, and in our daily pursuits we tend to think all is OK if we bring home that income, get some job security and health care insurance. All the while aware of the bad signs all around us. Like a dark cloud, Hm?

It isn't too soon after this horrible week to begin searching within ourselves for the actual lesson we ought to learn. A great city like New York-- all exitement and fantasy, to the tourist. In Manhattan, a wealth of beautiful sights and great restaurants and everywhere PRIDE. Nothing but the finest; as long as you make big bucks.

A week ago, I read a review of some MTV celebration, in which a female pop star had performed on the stage of --no less than the Metropolitan Opera House; and strutted around singing smutty lyrics; calling herself and her friends (quite cheerfully) BIG WHORES. The fans ate it up; because they identify with a hedonistic lifestyle. Far from being ashamed, they are in our faces about this NEW show business.

Let's not forget, either: Mayor Juliani and others were castigated and called fascists for making objections to taxpayer's money which had been spent in New York publicizing and showing obscene paintings at a public art gallery. Among those works of art was the notorious ''Virgin Mary'' naked and all grossed out in elephant crap! --Yes, and the New York intelligentsia had it out with Rudy Giuliani, and brought a civil suit against him, for being actively outraged. Multiply all this by hundreds of other public outrages occuring over a long time now.

We must ask ourselves; why has God permitted the proudest city in the world to suffer like this? Did God abandon us, and allow the vile enemy to come against His own people? What have we done to deserve this? And more: What's in in store ahead; not just for New York City and Washington D.C. (Recall everything perverse that's been done there?). What is God telling the American people?
Most Glorious and Sacred Heart of Jesus! Have Mercy on us; Amen!

-- eugene c. chavez (, September 13, 2001.


I agree that there is an evil side expressed in America -- we have the freedom to do so. I don't think that's why why we were targetted though, I think we were targetted for our *beliefs and convictions*.

Washington D.C. is home to the most free government in the world, one that says all men are created equal and lets one practice any religion or belief (or none at all) that one wants -- the exact opposite of a country that blows up Buddhas and imprisons innocent people for "spreading Christianity".

Washington ALSO upholds the the rights of all disenfranchised groups, even the RIGHT to sin! That too is a part of freedom, and something diametrically opposed to what's found in Afghanistan where their version of a "moral code" is strictly enforced by legal punishment -- to the point of death. Can you picture the Taliban's debate on that Malathorpe guy's Homosexual and anti-Christian "art" (note the quotation marks here please!) ? While in my weaker moments I might agree that the Malathorpe could have used a good roughing up by a couple of Marines, I sure wouldn't want our country's policy to be shooting dissidents in the head!

New York is the symbol of our success financially, and is a beacon to the world as far as people wanting to come here to live and become citizens to participate in the above mentioned freedoms, and to live in a country where one can actually with work become a homeowner, practice their faith, get an education, and until now feel comfortable that they and their families will be physically safe while doing so, regardless of where they come from, or what they believe. In America *anyone* can pursue the "American Dream", that is what New York stands for, and what the people of the world WANT. In contrast, how big is the immigration line for people trying to get *IN* to Afghanistan? Not very big! ;-) I think that must infuriate these terrorists beyond all reason that their laws and enforced systems are so despised by the rest of the world.

To me it's not hard to see why these terrorists chose the targets they did, it's a hatred of our *success* at our way of life, and not the areas of evil here. Does this country have it's areas of frank evil and wantonness? Yes. Are they outweighed by the good found here - - by a long shot! I don't think these acts are in some sense a punishment or reprimand from God, rather these are only actions undertaken by clever, evil men. Just as our retaliation will be taken by determined *men*, and won't be a sign from God that Islam is the Devil's religion.


-- Someone (, September 14, 2001.

I love our country, and I agree with you, it is far the most worthy of trust and allegiance of any place on earth. I know God will never leave His people to their ruin, or deliver them to the enemy.

My concern is more with the seeming indifference, not from our good people, who realize that God is offended by our sins. This is unnecessary; good people need no sermons. I mean a growing number of senseless, directionless Americans. We are being surrounded by them, and our destinies are tied to theirs.

In past ages when God chastised His people, He sent them into bondage. He brought them to their senses in deep sorrow; they repented in foreign lands, realizing how their sin had lost them their freedom. Was God unjust? Of course not. He made the Israelites turn back to Him in repentance. Then He delivered them. It may happen again; don't be too sure it can't. We have to learn by events like this latest one. Saint Paul warned us: ''God will not be mocked.''

I truly hope and pray our society of 2,001 will mature and begin again to embrace the values and the faith which brought America to greatness in the first place. Good works have to start replacing evil works, if we expect God to help us. What has happened in New York and D. C. is not at all removed from His Divine Will. He could have prevented it all, with one word. Everybody should realize it and turn to Him now for mercy and consolation. That is mainly what I meant to convey; not a judgment on New York or our country.

-- eugene c. chavez (, September 14, 2001.

"While in my weaker moments I might agree that the Malathorpe could have used a good roughing up by a couple of Marines."

Just one more time for emphasis.

"While in my weaker moments I might agree that the Malathorpe could have used a good roughing up by a couple of Marines>"

Jackiea is correct in the other thread.

This place is a nut house.


-- Chris Coose (, September 14, 2001.

Chris Coose,

What was the point of your last remark? By Frank's own admission, he had these thoughts in his weaker moments. Please tell me you have never wished ill will against someone only to regret it later? Personally, I sin in this manner way too often. Mostly when the liberal left of this country allow trash like Malathorpe's Virgin Mary to be displayed as "art", gangsta rap to be considered artistic expression, and any other number of like examples.

What I try to do at those times is to remind myself to condemn the sin, not the sinner. However, sometimes it is hard for me to separate the two when the sinner is unrepentent.

-- Glenn (, September 14, 2001.

You said it, Glenn. Mr. Coose isn't the only one that thinks we're nuts. In many other hearts, it causes only loathing and scorn if someone calls them to repentance.

Frank's immediate message was about understanding:

'' a part of freedom, and something diametrically opposed to what's found in Afghanistan where their version of a moral code is strictly enforced by legal punishment -- to the point of death.[IS] --Can you picture the Taliban's debate on that Malathorpe guy's Homosexual and anti-Christian ''art'' (note the quotation marks here please!) ? ''

. . . But instead it pushed Chris Coose's button to spot anything about homosexuals; even about their equality under U.S. laws! His knee-jerk response: This is a nuthouse. But actually, Frank is standing up for Malathorpe's RIGHTS to be filthy! Is it any use to speak to men like Chris, unless God gives them the GRACE to ''Be still and KNOW'' --?

-- eugene c. chavez (, September 14, 2001.

Glenn & Eugene,


Chris C.,

You said, "this place is a nut house" in response to my statement. Look at the whole paragraph it was in (as Eugene pointed out). The point I was making is that America's strength is that we support the rights of people whose actions we find so loathsome as to want to squash like a cockroach that crawled onto our Thanksgiving turkey. Are you so accepting of every behavior that you NEVER get upset at someone whose actions are taken only to provoke people's anger? If so, why are you getting upset now?

For example, another of Mr. Malathorpe's "art" was a picture (not a painting) of a cross submerged in urine. Do you see that as ART, or just an attempt to provoke people (as I do)?

If you say it IS art, would you also think it art if he took a picture of something that might offend you, like some Nazi deliberately injecting homosexuals with the HIV virus? Would that be "art" because it evokes emotion, or would that be "just sick"?

To me your statement isn't so much a valid criticism of the forum, but rather an expression of

"Such pittiful self-centered arrogance. "

it's hard for me to believe. We all have motes in our eyes Mr. Coose, perhaps you should cut people a little slack when they have the honesty to express them.

Oh yeah, and in case you don't come back to read this, "Goodbye".


-- Someone (, September 14, 2001.


I hate to have to tell you guys this, but there is not just one lunatic involved here -- called "Mr. Malathorpe," above -- but three big ones thus far and (no doubt) many more to come.

The scandal involving sodomite photos more than five years ago was caused by a Robert Mapplethorpe.
The scandal involving the crucifix in urine (entitled "P*** Christ") was caused by an Andres Serrano.
The scandal involving the portrait of Our Lady, surrounded by photos of genitalia and smeared with elephant dung, was caused by Chris Ofili.

Besides the obvious pornographic and blasphemous aspects of these things, liberal morons insisted on forcing Catholics to agree that their tax contributions could go toward financing exhibitions of them.

God bless you.

-- (jgecik@amdg.ihs), September 14, 2001.

Serrano! That's right. My apologies to Mr. Malathorpe whose "art" I remember more for photographs like the one of the guy on his hands and knees with a bullwhip shoved up his butt. A true artist is Malathorpe ;-) , but in this case my beef wasn't with him after all. In your minds please read my post with "Serrano" in place of "Malaprop" hee hee.


-- Someone (, September 14, 2001.

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