Retaliation and Culpabilitygreenspun.com : LUSENET : Freedom! self reliance : One Thread
It seems that every radio show I listen to people are talking about bombing Afghanistan and Pakistan for harboring Bin Laden. I just think we really have to KNOW who did this before we go blasting people into eternity. What do you think? Should we just bomb the entire Muslim world because they hate us with a lot of good reason?
Which is another point, this was not a decent act by any stretch of the most insane imaginations, but the US through many of the UN policies of being the world military police force, and also the Sudan aspirin factory bombing, and others I can't bring up right now, has stepped on so many people and so many countries that we are very much hated by at least half the world...even though they like to take our money, they hate us. Do you think they have just cause? Do you think all of this calling for "global community" and restricting our liberties here for safety is going to help stop this kind of thing?
I am just sick over this. We will never be the same, although we will carry on because you still have to eat, and sleep etc...I just can't believe the hate I am hearing, though I share in the anger. just wondering.
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 13, 2001
I am torn between massive retaliation and the (paraphrased) quote by Ghandi, An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. To hunt down and kill the terrorists that did this horrible, horrible thing we would have to kill innocent people, but that is what happened to the American people. From what little I've read about the Islamic religion death in battle immediately propels them to heaven. The families of the terrorists are revered because one of their own gave his life for Allah. I'm not sure that I want to give any of these things to people who have killed my fellow countrymen-even if it's only an Islamic belief and I'm sure that they'll go straight to hell for the incomprehensible, totally dishonorable thing that they have done. I am very glad that I will not be the one forced to make the very, very difficult decision on retaliation.
I also agree that life as we knew it before Tuesday September 11, 2001, is over. Our freedom, and some liberities, will be curtailed- but I pray not denied. To what extent? Only time will tell... I won't complain about longer waiting times in airports, but that aspect doesn't really effect my life as I don't fly regularly. I will feel safer when Sky Marshalls are aboard planes but I also don't think that they will end terrorism.
We, as Americans, will survive this and become stronger-of this I am sure. As my Grandma used to say, "This to shall pass..."
Stacy in NY
-- Stacy Rohan (KincoraFarm@aol.com), September 13, 2001.
Totally agree ladies . . .
I too want justice for the damages given to us by these terrorists, but blindly striking out at "perceived" enemies will only make the U. S. hated even more. We must first determine who was involved, how much did they contribute to the action, then build a case against them.
The whole world is watching us . . . how we respond to us will determine if the world watches a spoiled child lash out angrily, or if the world watches a nation dedicated to justice seek out the same. Hope we can rise to the challenge, hard as it seems right now.
-- j. r. guerra (email@example.com), September 13, 2001.
Doreen, I sent you something that's been e-mailed to me twice. Maybe you know how to put it on this forum, really uplifing for Americans.
I wish all these well-meaning announcers/experts would quit telling us that the enemy will retaliate if we punish them, well, Duh! Isn't that what people do in a war.
-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 13, 2001.
Just something we should all remember at this time. If we don't do it ourselves, it won't get done. The following was sent to me by a friend who seems to know what it is all about.
TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES
This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of the world would realize it. We are always blamed for everything, and never even get a thank you for the things we do.
I would hope that each of you would send this to as many people as you can and emphasize that they should send it to as many of their friends until this letter is sent to every person on the web. I am just a single American that has read this, I SURE HOPE THAT A LOT MORE READ IT SOON.
-- Bob in WI (email@example.com), September 13, 2001.
Here's one to ponder;
I too believe that a measured response is necessary. But consider this. The size of the undertaking that will ensue will be enormous. Our current force is inadequate. There will have to be a draft enacted. This time it won't just be the underpriviledged that are recruited. The divisive wounds of the Viet Nam era are too fresh to allow that nonsense to reoccur. Those with sons that fall within a predetermined age will have to put it on the line. Even the Senators' sons won't escape this one.
Are we ready for what we will be called upon to sacrifice? I don't know. My son is not of the age that will be called upon. It's much easier for me to watch your sons shipping out. It's easy for me to take a bold stance when the debt is being paid by someone else. Prepare yourselves my friends. You haven't even begun to think through the ramifications that await our future actions.
-- Mr. Man (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 13, 2001.
I had been wondering about the draft myself. My husband and oldest son both came home from work telling me how many people they have talked to that are ready to volunteer. My husband heard on the radio that the recruiting offices are overwelmed with applications (not sure if this is just local to us or not). Might be possible that a draft would not be necessary.
-- Terry - NW Ohio (email@example.com), September 13, 2001.
Our three sons stand ready to defend the integrity of freedom in the United States. It is time for cowards and couch potatoes to be ashamed. So many folks in this country want to keep enjoying the freedom inherited by them as US citizens without putting themselves in the line of fire to defend the country. I am proud of our sons because they are willing to put their beliefs of freedom into action. If the military effort requires the use of middle-aged crippled females, I'll be one of the first to sign up. Who will stand and fight for this country? Are we truly the greatest bastion of freedom in the world or a populace of whiners? I guess we will find out soon. The only good thing I can see so far out of this is that the name of Almighty God is being spoken freely all over the airways without reserve..it's about time. God bless.
-- lesley (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 13, 2001.
I did not raise my sons to go to war. I raised them with thanks in my heart that we left Vietnam before their time. It would break my heart to have to send one, and I don't care what anyone says about that.
-- mary (email@example.com), September 13, 2001.
I don't have any children, if I had a son of that age....IF it would be American forces only and none of this UN garbage and he felt moved to do so, as horribly frightening as it is I would be proud of his courage. If it was UN garbage, I wouldn't want him involved at all.
Myself, I basically feel the oath of office covers it. I would have no trouble taking that vow with full and utter committment.
-- Doreen (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 13, 2001.
I don't think any of us raise our children to go to war. I don't have any sons, God blessed me with three daughters, but I have nephews, a son-in-law, a perhaps-future-son-in-law, and know some young men who are almost as loved as my own children. One of my nephews is already in the Army and stationed in Germany -- and I'm concerned for him. We can't spare our own and then call on others to send their loved ones into harms way to protect us.
I would go if I was needed, it's even slightly possible that my 45- year-old husband, a 10-year Air Force veteran, could get recalled if things got really bad. But there *are* things we can be doing here. Maybe it won't be needed, time will tell, but shouldn't we all be planning Victory Gardens, or whatever else we can do to make our communities a little more self-sufficient and prepared? Transportation may get very expensive, raising prices of food in the grocery stores. We all should have disaster preparedness training and regular drills so if something happens in our area we *know what to do*!!! In cold areas, winter is coming and if the price of oil goes sky-high, not only will the price of heating oil and gasoline go up, so will electricity, so plan now for supplemental heating, not only for your own home, but also check on your neighbors. Someone may be elderly or disabled and need help if it comes to heating with wood or having no heat at all.
I'm sure you all can think of a lot of other productive things we can be doing. Retired medical people could perhaps be teaching first aid classes and organizing home and community first-aid supplies. And so on. One thing we are going to do in our town (largely rural) is inventory the livestock, so if transportation gets expensive or is restricted, local people can find an alternative to that buck or bull that's fifty miles away, or can find someone to buy chicks from if they can't be shipped any longer. Or so people will know who to ask about buying meat or milk or eggs if they are in short supply in the stores. Perhaps others have other ideas of things that could be done by us stay-at-homes to prepare -- I suspect anyone who lived through WWII in Great Britain would have lots of ideas.
-- Kathleen Sanderson (email@example.com), September 15, 2001.
I have three boys, 20, 21, and 24, and one was in the process of trying to join the Air Force when this all came about. I will support whatever decision the three make as to what action they will take. If the women in the world made decisions of war and peace, we might see a difference. Carrying a child for nine months under your heart and then giving birth and nursing that child gives a different slant to the issues of war. As for me, I could harvest ben Laden's head on a plate with no regrets--if it is proven that he is behind all this.
-- Debbie in S IL (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 15, 2001.
I hear ya, Debbie. Well, I got to give my view to my nephew today. He is in an aviation program at college right now and has wrapped up national aerbatics amateur division after only having his license for 4 months. He says he is ready to go fly some F-16's if they want him to...my other draft age nephews haven't checked in yet.God bless, all.
-- Doreen (email@example.com), September 15, 2001.
At the dinner table today, I told my family "I'm 43 years old, 30 pounds overweight and I got a bum left knee - if my country needs a nurse, all they got to do is show me where to sign". Husband said he'd be willing to go turn some wrenches and reckoned he could still hit what he aimed at with a weapon; Pop said he drove an ambulance in WWII and figured he still knew how; and the kid wanted to know if we might need any nurse's aides, she'd be willing to join. We suggested that she finish high school and go ahead with her nursing school training first!
Before my Uncle Harry was killed in action in WWII, my uncle Ralph had tried to enlist in the Navy but the farmer he worked for went to the draft board and got a deferment. After the telegram came, both my father and Uncle Ralph (the only ones in the family old enough; and Dad had just turned 17) enlisted in the Army. Uncle Ralph ended up in the MP's and guarded the German war criminals at Neuremburg, while Pop served in a succession of MASH units. My grandma cried when they left, but she was proud of the stars in her window. They managed to carry on the farm with the kids left at home, ages newborn to 14. Have we lost the willingness to sacrifice?
I aksed friends on another forum - Do you think patriotism is nature, or nurture? What do you all think?
-- Polly (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 15, 2001.
And to think... we killed off over 2 million of our own potential armed forces through abortion over the last 30 years.
-- daffodyllady (email@example.com), September 16, 2001.
Patriotism is mostly nurture. Some folks may be more predisposed to it by their natural temperment, but it is something that needs to be fostered.
I sure wish I knew what the near term held!
-- Doreen (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 16, 2001.
Doreen, we can't know what the near term holds, at least not in any detail. We can only become as prepared as possible for the worst, and hope for the best! But long term, of course, this is all leading right into the end times, exactly as described thousands of years ago in the Bible. Too bad so many people have deliberately blinded their hearts to God, this could be prevented or as least pushed off a few more generations, if only people would return to God and to His Word as their guide for living.
-- Kathleen Sanderson (email@example.com), September 17, 2001.
Are we all that sure it was someone of the islamic faith who perpetrated this terrible action? I am told by islams that to kill even one innocent person is a ticket straight to hell. Islamic law supposedly calls for execution for this crime.And here are all these supposed christians who are all in favor of blowing away as many innocent people as "necessary" to get back at someone else, who may not even be responsible--we don't know yet.
I do know that, if we start bombing people to get back at Bin Ladin, he'll be in some cave or bunker laughing his butt off, watching us turn even more of the world against us. Justifiably.
So, Daffodillady, you are in favor of raising more kids to be good little soldiers. Great. Just great.
-- jumpoff joe (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 17, 2001.