Thinking out loud..Well posting anyway :-)

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What if the terrorist decide to attack our power grid? Talk about the USA coming to a halt. No power would be devastating to the manufacturing community as well as residential. While some airports have back-up generators how many night flights do you think they would allow? Then there's the hospitals, hmmm traffic lights, I believe most banking is done electronically thus E-L-E-C-T-R-I-C-I-T-Y

Now on the other side of the Coin. Our Government is cracking down and starting to treat US like were the enemy. I've read (hope Doreen will confirm) that some sort of Emergency Powers Act has been signed by Bush and sent to Congress for approval. As I understand it after getting passed. Bush only needs to deem that the public is at risk and Martial Law can be placed in effect.

From several sources I've heard that many folk are stocking up on ammo. WHY? I have yet to see many stand up for themselves much less for their "beliefs". Whom would we fire upon? Cops? USA Troops? Uniformed Civilians? Any passerby that happens upon our property?

I had a friend that was fishing at a locale backwoods lake. 3 young guys came up talked to him for about an hour then with-out warning beat him helpless and robbed him. Now he's afraid to go back fishing. The attack on the Tower's has him afraid to Fly. He is one of the neighbors that I know has stocked up. His wife is very concerned because of his fear. She's scared he'll do something foolish. Sound like anybody you know?

For over 30 years I've thought about it. In a "serious" situation Where do you draw the line?

Doreen I agree with your idea that all foreigners should GO home. (Those on temp visa, etc.) I have a friend that is planning just that. He's selling off his home here in NC and moving back to Canada. We will miss him and his family. But If it is to be War then He is doing the right thing.

O.K. I have ranted enough for a while. Next...->

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), September 20, 2001

Answers

The power grid is too expansive to dirupt. Ypu can take out a switching station, but you can easily re-route it around that station. A major attack on all the power grids is not likely. Also, the events that took place on 9/11/2001 succeeded because we had grow complacent. We viewed ourselves as unbreakable. We may still see oursleves like that, but we now know we can take a dent or two. Sorry about your buddy who is stocking up. I think he is being irrational. That is exactly the type people we don't need around in a time like this. We need American's who are proud to go back to their daily lives, one's not afraid of the thought of dying. Let your buddy go back to Canada. He's ignorant if he thinks that Canada can't be attacked.

-- Bill (bill@bill.com), September 20, 2001.

Hi Bill, I have to disagree with you on some points.

"The power grid is too expansive to dirupt. Ypu can take out a switching station, but you can easily re-route it around that station. A major attack on all the power grids is not likely."

Why is California having so much difficulty? I think your being way to optimistic. Look what Hugo did and that was just a storm. Not a concentrated effort.

"Also, the events that took place on 9/11/2001 succeeded because we had grow complacent. We viewed ourselves as unbreakable. We may still see oursleves like that, but we now know we can take a dent or two."

Sorry Bill but I think your understating the issue. WE were attacked. Neither YOU nor I nor the USA can prevent terrorist attacks. In fact Bill YOU can not protect yourself at all. And I guarantee You that all the Law Enforcement Personnel in the entire world can't protect you. (Nor Me, or anyone for that matter) All LEA are reactionary forces. They come AFTER the damage is done.

"Sorry about your buddy who is stocking up. I think he is being irrational. That is exactly the type people we don't need around in a time like this.

Are you sure Bill? I admit I think he may be going a bit overboard. But consider his Point Of View. HE was attacked. In it's on way he is a victim of a personal terrorist attack. And it worked. His fear is limiting his ability to do things he used to take as normal activities.

"We need American's who are proud to go back to their daily lives, one's not afraid of the thought of dying.

Bill, If America had done that after Pearl Harbor there wouldn't have been a World War. Hmmm Is that what your trying to communicate?

Let your buddy go back to Canada. He's ignorant if he thinks that Canada can't be attacked.

Ah Bill, Now there's the rub Terry is very smart. I can't think of anyone (Other than you, Bill) that would call him ignorant. I'm sure Canada can be attacked. But it wasn't, It was the USA that was attacked.

Font color=red>Either the terrorist attack was a act of war or it was just another of those things that happen. I agree with those here that have stated that either we keep the rage at being attacked or we Forget the whole thing and Go back to work and resume our NORMAL Lives.

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), September 21, 2001.


Ken, I am not cowering in any corner afraid, as I really am not too terrifically threatened by the thought of dying. I don't want to see our nation die through a massive police state with digital fingerprints being taken at airports and facial recognition cameras for driver's licenses and on street corners. Because of the last two things I do have an inclination to head for the hills as it were.

Honestly, I think we should expect a massive assault from China. They practically own us and our sorry consumeristic, couch potato head, population anyway. They absolutely, positively do NOT like us. They like our money as it aids their war machine, and we are dumb enough to continue to give them more of it. perhaps that answers in part your question of where that ammo will be used? I HOPE not.

For myself, there is no going back to normal. This country and world was changed forever. We have lost many rights already to legislation as a reaction to this attack, and we will lose all of them, I fear (yes, fear.....nothing is as frightening as police on power trips,imo). So it's time to draw your line at how far you will go in giving up your God given rights to be "safe". This *is* the war as I see it.

I cannot believe how many emails I am receiving telling people to spend an extra $50 or $100 per week to pull us out of this. I don't have that in cash, and I would bet that most folks don't have that to spend frivolously every week until the market comes back up. grrroooaaannn.

Does any one know what the total number of lay offs this year is at? Before all of this it was in excess of 1 million, so I don't think that spending stupidly is advisable.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), September 21, 2001.


I don't think your friend is acting unwisely Kenneth.

As far as stocking up supplies, what can that hurt? Spending money on hard goods that you will need regardless of what happens in the future (extra food, ammunition if you hunt, medical supplies you need, etc.), seems to be much more wise than having a bank account full of cash and empty store shelves to spend it on. If he should lose his job, that extra peace of mind not having to worry about what his family will eat in the meantime is nice to have.

But having "Big Brother" come to life might very well happen; FDR's actions during World War II, in our present time, could be seen as very dictatorlike. Got to keep your ear to the ground on that scenario. The Commander in Chief executive orders (THANK YOU DOREEN!), are pretty comprehensive in their total control over our lives, in an emergency situation. Would the person in charge give back our freedoms after the "emergency" is over . . . not completely sure on that one.

As far as your other friend leaving the U.S. because of the threat of war, I don't see the reason for doing this. If his reasoning is that Canada will be left alone during this upcoming war I think is faulty. I think most of the first and second world countries will have to publicly pick a "side". Than their citizens will have to deal with what that action brings them.

Scary times people. You take care of yourselves. And Kenneth, I hope your mom's prognosis continues to improve.

-- j.r. guerra (jrguerra@boultinghousesimpson.com), September 21, 2001.


Thanks j.r. She's had a minor relasp. But we hope she'll do ok. The Doctor said she's living on her will to live and hopes and prayer.

Doreen I agree if the "police state" mentality happens we WILL NEED AMMO. bUT i WOULD ALSO RECOMMEND WE have a PLAN of action. When I say we I mean those of us that frequent the BB's. We have a bug out plan but that's in extreme situation. It would be better if a somewhat less drastic plan was in place.

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), September 21, 2001.



I will take them one at a time: 1.) The power grid is too expansive to completely disrupt. I work at an energy trading company and happen to know a little about the transfer from one place to the next. Storms and a few missing stations can temporarily disrupt service to some areas, but it would not be long term. That is not being "optimistic", it is being practical. 2.) I did not understate the issue. Wether or not we got attacked is irrelevant. We got attacked because they hate our way of life. The attack came in that form because we allowed it to happen. We allowed it to happen because we have become complacent as a society. We bitch and complain when we have to walk back through the metal detector at the airport. We complain abou the loss of certain libirties. I NEVER said we could prevent the attacks. If airport security was tighter, then they probably would not have been able to take four commercial airplanes. Nowhere in my post did I say that it was preventable. 3.) People who stock up their places and retreat from society is abnormal (IN MY OPINION). I think it is the wrong example to set. I as an American was attacked too and I am not freaking out. I even got on a plane to do some business the other day. I refuse to let those faceless cowards affect my life. 4.) Ken, forgive me for asking this, but didn't America shed it's isolantionist fears after Pearl Harbor? We lost the fear to die, so we could preserve our way of life. We did not retreat to Canada to ride the storm out. 5.) Smart people can be ignorant. Thinking Canada is safer than America IS IGNORANT. Forgive me, but isn't there a large population Muslim population in Canada? Didn't the terrorist slip into our Country from our neighbor to the North? So Ken, I guess by your rational Muslim extremist's can live in America, and assimilate into the population. Then one day strike at the country they live in, but the people of Canada are safe. Why you ask? Because they don't like American's. Forget the fact that the Extremist Muslims have said will carry out the same acts on the people who support America. Oh yeah, one last thing. The terrorist have repeatedly said that they are hell bent on bringing down the WEST, but I never heard them throw out the disclaimer that they did not mean to lump Canada into that category. I really expected the discussion to take a different approach, but I am more than willing to argue my points. Also, you posted that you want "all foreigners should GO home." I think the Indians were thinking the same thing when a couple of boats approached Plymouth Rock.

-- bill (bill@bill.com), September 21, 2001.

Anyone considered the possibility of the "powers that be" pulled off this attack in order to get us to rally around the flag, and accept a loss of our civil rights?

There has been some discussion, I heard on the radio, among some u.s. legislators to put some sort of "sunset rule" on the emergency orders, in order to prevent someone in power, who I suppose would be Bush, from retaining martial law after there is no longer any need for it. (if there ever was)

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), September 21, 2001.


Bill , Being part Cherokee and Scotch-Irish and wife is Cherokee So OK, GO HOME Bill. :-)

I can agree that power disruptions can be fixed over a short period of time. PROVIDING that there is not a continuous effort to keep disrupting the grid.

AS for people being abnormal? (Have you been reading the post here?) Safe bet is that 90% of homesteaders are considered ABNORMAL!

As far as Canada goes. Who Cares? I don't. Terry is going home. So what that's his choice. His mom & dad and 2 brothers live in Canada, His wifes folks live in Michigan. They made a FREE choice.

Now as to the complacency. Yep, USA has done that. But why shouldn't it? AS pointed out over 136 years and no problems here. (well there was Pearl Harbor) I've already noticed a lot of citzen (sheep) falling back into old routines. I guess it will be more noticeable on a large scale over the course of the next few weeks.

Bill, I too will have to go back into "normal" mode. Survival mode doesn't allow much room for Business. But I think the bug out kits will remain in "ready" state for some time to come.

By the way Bill, Thanks for the discussion.

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), September 21, 2001.


Ken - No hard feelings. I enjoy the friendly bantor. I did ask a few questions that I think are fairly decent questions. At least we have the ability to discuss this freely.

-- bill (bill@bill.com), September 21, 2001.

Yes, JOJ. I have indeed considered it. I am convinced Geo. Junior was not in the least aware of it's occurring......beyond that I am unsure. We trained these folks, the hijackers that the FBI said it was are mostly alive and well in UAE, we recruited moslems here and trained them in sabotage of technical systems and guerilla warfare with Osama Bin Laden at Camp Perry. So there are a number of things.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), September 22, 2001.


Bill...No hard feelings. Your questions were welcome. I hope there never comes a time we can't agree to disagree.

JOJ My thoughts exactly. Not the PC version Either!!!

Doreen. WHY NOT? The wheels are most often turned against those close at home.

Big Brother Is Watching You

War Is Peace

Freedom Is Slavery

Ignorance Is Strength

How could someone in 1949 have had such ideas?

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), September 23, 2001.


Hi Doreen,

Haven't chatted with you in ages. :) So, you said...

"Honestly, I think we should expect a massive assault from China. They practically own us and our sorry consumeristic, couch potato head, population anyway. They absolutely, positively do NOT like us. They like our money as it aids their war machine, and we are dumb enough to continue to give them more of it. perhaps that answers in part your question of where that ammo will be used? I HOPE not."

You really have it in for the Chinese, don't 'cha? Why on earth would they attack a country that owes them soo much money? (trade deficit). Ever read the story of "The Goose that laid the Golden Egg"? They're not stupid. They're sitting on a gold mine of free trade. Why would a Chinese capitalist warlord risk war when there's so much money to be made? Making war is expensive. Making money is fun. We may have taught the Afghanis how to wage war, but we also taught the Chinese how to wage Capitalism. Now why would they go and spoil a good thing?

And don't tell me it's OIL. Look at a world map and locate a country called Kazakhstan. It's on the western border of China. They have LOTS of oil and are building a pipeline to China. Sure as heck beats sending a Chinese army of 200 million (yeah, right) rampaging across central Asia to the Middle East. Do you actually think the Chinese and the camel jockies would get along? Guess again. Besides, the Chinese can build a fleet of tankers with the money WE owe them.

I STILL haven't heard a good explanation of how all those Chinese are going to get here. Somehow, the image of a fleet of Chinese junks storming the West Coast just doesn't cut it. I know Speilberg would never make a movie of it. :)

(:raig

-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), September 26, 2001.


There is no US power grid. There is an grid of power transmission lines between various power distrubution points and users. Most of the power line distruption you hear about due to weather are fallen tunk lines that bring power to your home, NOT the "grid" from the power generators site. More and more places are putting in backup power.

-- Gary (gws@redbird.net), September 26, 2001.

Doreene,

Why is California having so much difficulty? I think your being way to optimistic. Look what Hugo did and that was just a storm. Not a concentrated effort. California is not having a power distribution problem, They are having a power avaliability problem. Most of the CA problem is CA polictal stupidity. What Hugo knocked out was distrubution systems. Not the primary grid. Granted to the home owner, its appears as the same.Hugo problem was reasonable isloated. I.E. It didnt affect me in ohio, or anywhere off the coast.

-- Gary (gws@redbird.net), September 26, 2001.


Hey Craig...it has been awhile!.....slummin' it???-------(smile)-----

No, I do not have it in for the Chinese. The Chinese government however, is in no way a friend of the united States. Just check how many times in the past four years they have given us military threats that weren't too veiled. Communism is diatmetrically opposed to capitalism, and the Chinese are using the money to enhance their war machine not to improve their people's way of life. Isn't capitalism bred with communism something friendly called fascism? Seems I remember that from PoliSci... Why do you think the Chinese would like us? Do you think you can buy friends?

As for how they are coming here, a whole slew of them are coming up through Mexico under Panamanian passports. We had 50,000 Chinese troops in Alaska three years ago, and have had Chinese generals checking out our amy base of Fort Hood here in Texas. Maybe we will just send them plane tickets?..smirk.. You might just go and check out that we are training 10,ooo Chinese in American banking practices in SF (a plan that is part of Gorbachev's group, can't access it right now, sorry) ...Why? Because they are such good friends and we like them knocking our planes out and all that fun stuff. (never been more sarcastic) Honestly, I believe WE are afraid to pull out of China because WE like the slave and cheap labor so well, and all those cheap organs are good, too!

Did you know that you can still buy pencils made in America? They cost $1.68 whereas the Chinese ones cost 68. And then you might try to check how many Chinese immigrants there have been in the past 10 years. Who knows??? I know in Alberta Canada they are having massive problems with Chinese gangs. Guns and all and they aren't even allowed there.....the handguns, that is.

As for Spielberg......I am really not a big fan, although I have liked some of his stuff, just not a movie freak.

Gary, I don't think I know what you are talking about......are you sure it was me you were meaning to address?

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), September 27, 2001.



Craig, do you think china will still be "our friend" when the bottom falls out of our economy and we no longer buy their cheap junk? Will they still have a use for us then?

How will they get here? Take a look in our harbors out west. How many of those ships are Hutcheson Wompoa? I would say that 8 out of 10 are controled by Red China. Believe me, these container ships are carrying container loads of Chinese and are being unloaded all up and down the west coast. The rest of them will be coming over using the Lockheed and Los Alamos technology that Clinton sold to them.

China would love to see us throwing our diluted resources at the mid- east and leave our western states vulnerable.

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), September 27, 2001.


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