Biometrics and Christiansgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Freedom! self reliance : One Thread
Folks, today I have heard several people on the radio and a few on television talking about implementing a law requiring either your digital thumbprint on a national ID or passport and your retinal scan for entry into "sensitive" places such as airports. One lady even said on the radio that she thought this was a great idea and wanted it on her credit cards as well. Every caller said it was such a great idea and an easy thing to do, it would be dumb not to do it.
I have disagreements with my pastor about this.....He says that the mark is going to be a willful acknowledgement of the Beast as worthy of worship and the messiah. I do NOT see it that way. I have made up my mind about this stuff and I will NOT do it to participate in this system for any reason. In my study of the passages regarding the mark I do not see that it will be advertised as the definite worship of Satan, I see that it will be sneaky and made to look like a great idea. I think that first it's the thumbprints and retinal scans and then it's the chip.
What do you think? How do feel about biometric technology and it's relationship with the mark of the beast? Thanks much and God bless!
-- Doreen (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 23, 2001
I think you're right on...wouldn't it be just like the tattoos on the concentration camp prisoners in WWII? Is slavery to "world" leaders the next step?
-- Bonnie (email@example.com), September 23, 2001.
I am in agreement with you, Doreen. It is conditioning people to take the mark of the beast, if not the mark.
The biggest problem I see with this and Christians is the prevailing rapture theory that Christians will be raptured out before the world gets to the mark of the beast and therefore, Christians should feel free to accept any mark offered to them.
The creator and promoter of Digital Angel claims to be a Christian.
-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), September 23, 2001.
Do you guys remember years ago when there were many saying your social security number was the mark of the beast? There were preachers and bible quotes etc. to back this up. It just fizzled out as something new (information strips on credit cards)came along. What may be next?
As far as the government having my thumb print it really doesn't matter. I was in the military, so they already have my prints. They claimed that the prints were taken for identification in case of death, but I have always had reservations about that after it was done.
One of the churches that I have studied said that it was not a real mark, but rather an inclination in your mind (head) and in your actions (hand)to follow evil. I have also heard the opposite side saying that it will truly be an actual mark. Obviously people are not in agreement on this. I am sure there are many other explanations that I am not aware of regarding this. I am amazed that it seems that when ten people read a Bible verse in Revelation they can come up with 10 different explanations, all of which seem to make some sense in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps it is something we will not understand until it has transpired. But that is not to say we should not try to understand. If we give up trying to understand, we are truly lost.
Talk to you later.
-- Bob in WI (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 23, 2001.
Hey Bob, I remember hearing that about the SS many years after I had already been given one. I do think it has some merit in the conditioning aspect. There are four times according to law that it is allowable to inquire after the SS# of any person. These times are 1) when applying for a driver's license (many states have exemptions for this on religious grounds) 2) when registering a motor vehicle (same as above) 3) To apply for and receive public assistance 4) for tax purposes.
Also, there is no law requiring anyone to have an SS#.
That's just for general info;}.
Revelation really requires a very solid knowledge of the rest of the Bible and I probably don't have that as well as I should. I've read it so many times, and studied it for a full year and read others books on it, and I still can't tell you I know it and what everything means completely. So maybe I am wrong, but it really jumps out at me and has for years. Like the verse that says that "if thine hand offends thee cut it off, and if thine eye offends thee pluck it out". Mirrors the thumb scans and retinals very well, no? Seems like a whole lot of hand-eye coordination to me. Also the fact that all of this stuff literally breaks down to numerical codes from what my puter friends tell me. Maybe someone here knows something about that?
Food for thought.
-- Doreen (email@example.com), September 23, 2001.
As far as *interpreting* the Bible, don't! Unless there is a specific indication that the passage is meant to be taken symbolically or is a parable or something, always read it literally. God didn't write it to confuse or fool us, He doesn't play head games!
I think that the marks of the beast are something specific having to do with worshipping the beast. I've just started re-reading Francis Schaeffer's How Should We Then Live? If you haven't read it, he starts out with several chapters of history review, and I was reminded that for the last few hundred years of Rome's history, they were worshipping their emperors as gods. The reason Christians were killed was not because they worshipped God, but because they refused to *also* worship Ceasar as a god. In other words, they weren't tolerant of other religions! Sound familiar?!? (And, for all those who like to claim that Christians are hate-mongers akin to the fundamentalist Moslems, remember just who was getting killed here.) Back to the point, though, keep in mind the Bible passages that tell us that the Antichrist, or the Beast as he's also known, will be one who suffered a deadly wound and "came back to life". We also know that the one-world government he controls will be some form of revived Roman Empire. So I suppose what could happen is a revival of the old emperor-worship. As far as allowing the government to do retinal scans or anything like that, I will wait and see -- and pray about it. Hopefully they won't be in a big hurry to try to implement it. But, folks, now is a good time to make sure of your own relationship with the Lord, because surely He's coming soon.
-- Kathleen Sanderson (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 24, 2001.
As many of you are probably aware, I'm not big on the bible. However, I've read parts of it, over the years, including Revelations. It is clear that 666 is the number of the mark of the beast. I don't believe in the beast-not at all.
Therefore, I find it very strange that whoever set up the UPC chose to incorporate 666 in almost all (not all, though) UPC marks. I figured out almost twenty years ago that this was encoded in this way, and could explain it, if anyone's interested.
Has anyone any explanation of having 666 in the UPC's? Maybe some fundamentalist christian's idea of a practical joke? Or an atheist's idea of one? Or perhaps someone's way of "proving" the bible prophecy?
-- jumpoff joe (email@example.com), September 24, 2001.
JOJ, I had heard that, too, and would be interested in the explanation. I have never heard a reason for it, would like to hope that it was someone's idea of a joke. But, if you don't believe in the Beast now, wait a few years, you may change your mind.
-- Kathleen Sanderson (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 24, 2001.
Regardless of whether this fits into Bible prophecy or not, I am not in favor of a national ID for one big reason--I should not have to have "papers" to travel or do business in my own country. That is not what the USA was founded for. In case anyone cares to remember this was a big thing in Nazi Germany cerca WW II. Let's not repeat past mistakes. ...Besides, no matter what is invented, it can be circumvented given a fertile mind. No safety there.
-- Sandra Nelson (Magin@starband.net), September 24, 2001.
According to Revelations, folks will be commanded to worship the beast and given his mark. National IDs, retinal implants or scanners in somebody's hand is not asking folks to worship anything. I like the idea of requiring this of all foreign nationals myself. The idea of any government requiring its' CITIZENS to have an artificial device implanted in their bodies for ID purposes smacks way too much of "control" to me. No way I will ever let this happen to me...period...but it has nothing at all to do with my beliefs as a fundamentalist Christian.
-- lesley (email@example.com), September 24, 2001.
Dang, don't know where that old bible went. Somebody refresh my memory. Doesn't the Bible say that folks are going to be required to have the mark of the beast on their forehead or wrist in order to "buy or sell" anything?
Kathleen, or anyone else who's interested, in order to understand this, you'll need to go grab a few cans of food, cereal boxes, etc.
Now, look at the UPC. There are almost always (the only exception I have seen is some older magazines, and such) two sets of six numbers. Look at the numbers, and examine the bars above them. There are also two sets of bars- one set for the left side six numbers, and a different set for the right hand numbers.
Forget about the left hand set of numbers; I don't know why they are different, but bear with me and look at he six numbers on the right. Each number, from one to zero is represented by two bars up above it. Therefore, there are six pairs of bars above the six numbers (twelve bars in all.) If you compare a whole bunch of different items, you will note that each number is represented by two specific bars, and they never change. For instance, I'm looking at a box of Poulain brand Chocolatier, "Noir et Noisettes a la Truffe et eclats de cacao, which my wife brought back from France for me recently. Apparently they have the same codes as those used here (UNIVERSAL Price Code, right?) Looking at my box of chocolates, the number on the right is 023916. The bars, reading from the left, in pairs, are a fat bar on the left and a thin bar on the right (0), two fat bars (2), two FAR APART thin bars (3), a fat on the left and a thin VERY close to the thin bar, on the right (9), then two fat bars, but farther apart than the 2, (1). Last are two thin bars, close together (6). If you get some more items, and compare, you'll see that these relationships between the numbers and the bars do not vary. Ever, in my experience, and I used to look for exceptions, trying to find them, with no success.
Anyway, if you look at any bar code (with the rare exceptions mentioned above), you'll find three pairs of thin lines, close together (representing sixes), but with NO number below them. They are always placed just to the left of the left set of numbers, in between the left and right sets of numbers, and just to the right of the right set of numbers. These three sets of bars (6's) are also just a scosh longer than the other bars. So every (almost) bar code (EVERY bar code with the two sets of six numbers) has 6-6-6, prominently placed, and bracketing the two sets of numbers.
Check it out. It will most likely be necessary to count the lines off in pairs, to make out which pairs of lines go with which numbers, as they are pretty close together, and sometimes it APPEARS that a line goes with the line on it's right, when it actually is a part of a pair, with the line on its left. It's pretty obvious, though, if you count the lines off in pairs.
Again, I don't know who, or why, but only that this is so.
I'd be most interested in hearing what you think after checking these out.
-- jumpoff joe (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 24, 2001.
I had heard a long time ago that the codes wouldn't work dependably without the seperation of sixes you described so thouroughly, Joe. I can't remember where I heard it but it was some time ago.
And yes, it is in the head or the hand. Lots of speculation has been bandied about over that. If you want, I will gladly sens you a Bible so you can check these things out, Joe!!! (Knew you'd like that;}, but........ a n y w a y, I would.)
-- (email@example.com), September 24, 2001.
But more importanly, Joe, what do YOU think of the upc code and Bible prophecy?
-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), September 25, 2001.
Biscuit, I'm sure I could get my honey to dig up her Bible, if I need to use it, for some reason. I'll bet that I could even find one on line (but wouldn't know which version to read)
Laura, as far as my personal beliefs about the UPC and the Bible, I think the UPC is an effort to eliminate all money, and thereby gain a lot of control over us all. I think that the chapter of the bible called Revelations must have been written by someone who had early access to LSD. Very interesting, but very halucinogenic qualities in that chapter.
But I'm only guessing. Certainly I don't think it can be taken literally. I'm scared of monsters with seven heads and all that stuff. At least I think I WOULD be scared, if I actually encoutnered something like that!
-- jumpoff joe (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 25, 2001.
Biometrics scare me. What if someone stole my laptop? I would be upset but I would live. Now imagine the same situation but this time the thief knows they need my finger print to access the laptop he just stole from me. Whatís to stop him from holding me at gun point while his partner cuts off my thumb, so they can access the laptop to change the access print and sell it? Now thanks to biometrics Iím missing a laptop and a finger.
Ok maybe that doesnít sound too realistic. Considering there maybe be safeguards in the system to stop this from working. Even if it doesnít work however, there is only way for the criminal to find out, and thatís to try it.
Hereís a simpler question. What if someone accidentally got their thumb cut off. Considering all the factory workers in my family has at least one finger missing. Itís not bad enough that theyíve lost a finger, now maybe they canít access their $3,000 laptop.
What scares me most is if biometrics becomes main stream. Everybody thinks itís a great idea to walk into a supermarket and pay for your groceries with your thumb print but itís not. The computer has to turn your thumb print into a digital signal and send it back to a server to compare against I would assume, copies or at lease digital hashes of your thumb print so the server can vouch that it is you.
What if, in transit, a hacker steals that digital signal? They wouldnít have to cut off your finger, but thatís where the problem gets really complicated. If theyíve stolen the digital copy of your finger print, and biometrics are mainstream, there is nothing that can stop them from using modified equipment at home to use your fingerprint to buy goods off the Internet. If someone steals my credit card I can report it stolen and they can assign me a new credit card number. If someone steals my digital fingerprint thereís nothing I can do. Nothing in the world is going to change my fingerprint. Then the hacker can buy stuff in my name for the rest of my life, and I have no protection from it. It is not like I can say thatís not my fingerprint. Iím the only person in the world that is supposed to have it.
So not only will I have bad credit, Iíll have no legal recourse and will actually have to pay for all the goods that the thief stole from me, for the rest of my life. Even filing for bankruptcy protection wouldnít help. The thief could continue to buy goods in my name before, during, and after I filed. It would still be on my credit. My finger print will always be my finger print regardless of how many legal papers I sign. Couldnít they just send me a better credit card?
-- Matthew C. Sims (email@example.com), May 18, 2003.
fuck you all!!!!!!!!!
-- Mat Ranillo III (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 27, 2004.
It's amazing the ignorance that the general public has about biometrics. I have a degree in Biometric System Engineering, and one of the main goals is to bebunk all of the myths floating around in cyberspace regarding biometric technology. The main appeal of using biometrics is to increase the level of security, not to replace it. There will still be passwords to back up your computers, entrances, etc.
When a biometric (face, iris, fingerprint) is measured by a device, it is converted into a mathematical template and compared to a previously stored template of your biometric (face, iris, fingerprint). One unique thing about doing it this way is you cannot recreate the image from the template. Imagine baking a cake, you mix all the ingredients (eggs, flour, etc.) and get the final result. Now you send that cake to your friend, there is no way he can "un-bake" that cake and extract the exact same separate ingredients that you initially started with. Same goes for biometric templates and digital images of your face, iris, etc.
People tend to shy away from biometrics because they are afraid of change, and that is understandable. But in today's society, with identify theft and terrorism, there is a desperate need for more security and biometric technology is the clear answer.
On one hand, biometric verification can stop someone from illegally making a purchase in your name. On the other, biometrics systems are already leading the fight against terrorists. A terrorist can easily change his name or get a false id (which has been their greatest strength), but he cannot change his fingerprint, face, or iris (without serious mutilation). Check out the US-VISIT program.
Unfortunatly for all the folks out there worrying about the "mark of the beast" there is probably nothing I can say to convice them otherwise. Thankfully, thats not my problem, they'll have to conform or move to a third world country (I hear Sudan is nice this time of year). I would like to bet that the same people worried about biometrics being the "mark of the beast" are probably the same people who said that Y2K was going to be the start of armageddon (I wonder if they are still waiting on those computers to crash and planes to fall out of the sky).
For those of you who are rational thinkers, I can assure you, biometrics is here to stay and you are going to see a LOT more exciting things in the near future.
-- aric N (email@example.com), August 12, 2004.
The trouble with your viewpoint (biometric man above, sorry I missed your name) is that you seem to believe that technology actually will make you safer. Life is not safe, and the control; of humanity through computers only sells the illusion of safety while destroying privacy and freedom. While the interesting and entertaining things that can be done with computers are enjoyable, I believe they have only increased frustration and dependence on a system that is easily tampered with. In otherwords, I don't want them running my life.
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 13, 2004.
Wow! Its really amazing how easy this is going to be for anti-christ. He has the world thinking the mark is the greatest thing since money and the saints kinda baffled though we are supposed to have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us, who is also called the Spirit of Truth.
As far as the world is concerned the Bible says they will deceive and be deceived. That's a no brainer. Just as credit cards were a trojan horse so are the baby steps biometrics have taken towards the end result---the literal mark. The fact is the beast will have caught the entire world in the "web" and the "net" through debt and greed. Debt and greed are the covert names for credit card. Credit is a fool's paradise, imagine banks giving you the option of getting loans 24/7 with interest attached which you must pay back every month. All transacting will be done on the computer. People's lives will be at his mercy through clicks on a keyboard.
Fear ( terror ) was the first emotion satan profited from after the fall in Genesis. In the Bible that word fear is translated "terror" and what war is the world fighting today that will cause the world to give up all freedom for safety, security, peace? A world war on terror (fear)
People will give their permission to be literally marked by anti-christ out of fear (terror). Anything to keep them safe and secure. But it is a planned illusion because satan has always been behind it. He is the prince of merchandising (trading: Ezekiel 28) and that is the spirit that the unbeliever has so of course they won't have a problem with any of this.
But I believe those who are and even those who will be saved someday will not be able to take the mark or even be scanned in hand or iris. I think October 2005 is the dead line for the new passports in the U.S. Iris scanning will be compulsory to travel out of and into the U.S. Iris scanning is as close to taking the mark in the forehead as anything gets. It should be an interseting year.
As far as 666 goes it is the number of a man and represents three ages having passed since Adam sinned in the garden on the sixth day (6000 years). (6) represents the number of man. Six, three times is 666. It means his time is up and the age coming is the culmination of his rejection of God and the mark represents his absolute decision to reject God for all eternity. So instead of looking for the actual number 666 think of it in terms of man proving his loyalty to satan and final rejection of God by allowing the mark of the beast "in" his forehead or "in" his hand not on them. Since it will be in his hand or forehead, taking any method of biometrics is already having the mark. The new translations of the Bible do not say the mark will be "in" but on the hand and forehead. Nope!
Adam to Abraham 2000 yrs. Abraham to Christ 2000 yrs. Christ until now 2000 yrs Adam is the beginning of man as a sinner and now we are at the end of time and all who rejected Christ as their Savior from Sin through God's Grace will take the mark. It is the number of a man.
2000 years per each age counting from Adam, to Abraham, from Christ to the end of the church age. Jesus came as a man and God to forgive and save man from Sin. 666 represents the completion of man's day in the earth and the end of man's time to repent.
The only people who will soon be left in the earth are those who rejected Christ, rejected God's mercy and longsuffering of the evil in the earth. Those left in the earth will be those who rejected the Savior of man from the Sin he committed on the sixth day of Creation. His Sin (Adam) was not believing what God said. Mankind is still doing that. Like satan (the serpent) saying, "hath God said?" Yes He did even if we do not understand it all, He said it. The Bible is what He said.
I wonder how long our kids could live in our houses questioning our authority every day, literally calling us liars---well that's what we did as sinners, living in God's house (the world) and doing as we please and calling him a liar. When you think of the wickedness man commits and blames it on God who created him it boggles the mind.
-- Vanessa Alexander (email@example.com), September 12, 2004.