Another newcomer to the world of homesteading...

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Hello everyone, I've been "lurking" here for a bit so I should probably introduce myself. I'm Sarah, a college student in central PA. My boyfriend, Jonathan, and myself are both hoping to finish college within the year and begin our search for the land and the knowledge (and the money!) that we will need to build our homestead. I would be interested in hearing from anyone who would like to share their homesteading experience "from the ground up". I know there are many great books out there that can help get us started but there's no substitute for talking with someone who's been there. Our plans are by no means firm but at the present time they include buying a large parcel of wooded land and building our home out of stone or stovewood. We hope to be as self-sufficient as possible and get most of our food by foraging, gardening and hunting: we don't have a definite location in mind but seem to be leaning towards the Minnesota/Wisconsin/upper Michigan area. We aren't sure what we'll do to earn money, but I suppose that will depend on what is available in the area we end up in. Our main concern at the moment is how best to utilise the time between now and when we are financially ready to buy our land, so that we have the knowledge and skills we need to get started as soon as possible. I grew up on a small hobby farm and so have a basic (but by no means comprehensive!) understanding of gardening, beekeeping, raising chickens, maple sugaring, and other potentially useful activities, and Jonathan will have a degree in Environmental Science which includes lots of information on trees and plants and animal populations which may turn out to be helpful. Other than that we've been reading everything we can find about homesteading and wilderness survival. We try to put what we've learned into practice as much as possible but since I live in a college dorm and his parents take rather a dim view of such "unrealistic" dreams it's difficult to find opportunities to do so at the moment. In the spring when I have my own apartment we can really get started! If anyone has thoughts or advice, I would really appreciate anything you have to say. There is so much to learn it seems overwhelming at times! It's very heartening to read all your posts and know that our "impossible dream" is possible and many people are living it! Thanks in advance.

-- Sarah K. (ladynuala@hotmail.com), October 03, 2001

Answers

Sarah, It's my opinion (and everyone has one!) that there are very few souls in today's world that are happy or capable of existing entirely off their land and wits. However, the people who incorporate as much of that dream as possible into their lives seem to generally be very happy and fulfilled. Every year, we work to make our hobby farm more and more self-sufficient, but there are always going to be things we just don't want to do....or can't make time to do, or simple luxeries we just want to have. I think starting a homestead from the ground up on strictly cash, barter and hard work is a wonderful priniciple and one you should adhere to as much as possible....I also think it's realistic to not to be able to expect for that to happen in it's entirety. Do the best that you can, but if you have to work a real job while building that dream, do so...and hold on to your dream! Just keep in mind that if you are going to do everything for yourself, there will be little time left to work a "real" job if that were to be a necessity. Good Luck!

-- CJ (cjtinkle@getgoin.net), October 03, 2001.

Sarah, your real earning income years are ahead of you. Rent yourself a nice little apartment near both your high income jobs. Save your money and take vacations to find your homestead, paying for your homestead, building on your homestead, then if you want to ditch the city for the homestead when you have a stable marriage, want kids or have a few already, you have your dream waiting for you. Maintaining your homestead when you are debt free, and it is already established is one thing. Moving with no job, and no prospects, with no idea of what you are doing, I can guarantee you will either loose the homestead or want to leave in 3 years. This happens every year out in our woods. You have to have money to start, period.

We were in our late 20's when we moved, husband still communted over 100 miles every day to work, once the house, barns, fencing were completed then he quit his job and we started our business. There were months on end during the winter that we only had my goat business (selling stock and milk) to survive on. Now in our early 40's the business is good, and I still do my goats.

Looking back it would have been dooable if we would have purchased our land while still living in the sub-burbs. Then with the sale of the house we could have used it for the house material, as it was we built out of pocket, living in a travel trailer while building, took 3 years. Sit down with pad and paper, and really see how much this move is going to cost you. And unless you already have a good working knowledge of electricity, plumbing, etc. than purchase an already established homestead that you can simply fix up as you go is a much better idea than raw land. Otherwise like our neighbors you end of loosing your property or worse, having to timber and iron ore the land to pay your taxes. Then your little 10 acres of woods is nothing but tops and stumps with a big ole crater in it!

Look passed the romance of all of this :) Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), October 03, 2001.


Once you pick your area, begin contacting lending institutions in the area to get the financing particulars for their land loans. And I mean contact every one of them for 40 miles in every direction. You would not believe the differences that exist between lenders when it comes to land loans. On our 20 acres we were quoted everything from 10% to 50% down, 10 year to 30 year amoritization timeframes, APRs from 6.8% to 8.9%, and on and on and on....

We had our best luck and most flexibility with small local state banks. The bigger banks just weren't interested in accomodating any of our needs and desires. We used one state bank for our land loan because they had the deal that suited our needs the best. Were using another (a little more local) state bank for our construction/mortgage loan because they will do just about anything I need them to do short of just giving us the money.

-- Steve in So. WI (alpine1@prodigy.net), October 03, 2001.


Sarah, you never mentioned your degree. What will it be?

Vickie gave you GREAT advice. I doubt you'll like it or take it just because at your age it's difficult to see around those rose colored glasses. While money isn't the answer to everything, it is the answer to more things than whatever comes in second place.

If you want to try homesteading that's wonderful. I'd think first getting real jobs that will pay you enough to save for what you want ought to be your first priority now. If you get established with jobs someplace you might want to look at buying a small house with a little land (maybe an acre or two) where you can have a large garden and maybe a couple animals. If history is any indication that real estate should appreciate while you're living there.

With that and a few years' savings from two good jobs you might be in a position to step up a bit. I'd guess you're probably at least one or two homes away from your 'dream home' here. Again, I know no one your age wants to hear that (and everyone my age wants to say it), but it's true. Good luck to you in your quest. I hope this helps.

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), October 03, 2001.


Sarah-no reason why you can't start "homesteading" right now. When I lived in a college dorm, I cooked meals for myself-pretty much from scratch as I didn't have much (any) money-I cooked on a hot plate and in a crock pot. Our college had garden plots you could sign up for. I learned crocheting, quilting and sewing skills. I started bartering my sewing skills for different things-mostly rides home or to the grocery store-I didn't have a car. I learned to make over clothes from the thrift store. I persuaded sombody to get me a subscription to Mother Earth News-I didn't know about Countryside. I voluntered time at the local food co-op and in returned got a substatial discount on food, plus tons of info on how to cook, store stuff-so, a friend of mine did the same deal at the local vet, and learned tons about animal husbandry. I don't know what type school you are at, if possable go hang out with some AG students. Start now!

-- Kelly (markelly@scrtc.com), October 03, 2001.


Sarah.... I beg to differ with lots of this advice! Don't take off your rose-colored glasses! Don't put a damper on your dreams until you're older! And I wouldn't suggest earning as much as you can now while you rent an apartment!

Too many homesteaders are "wannabes" who spend their lives wanting to do something else and working at jobs they DON'T LIKE. Life is too short to do that! I will be 50 in May and my husband is 58. We've worked hard all our lives and through no fault of our own, we don't have any savings and we're still making a huge $550 monthly payment on our 13 acre homestead and house.....

We wish now we had followed our dreams to begin with! Husband has had a very successful handyman business for a little more than a year! Now he wishes he'd done that 20 or 30 years ago....when the kids were still small so he could have spent more time with them instead of commuting one hour EACH WAY to a high paying job.....

Find jobs that will satisfy your hearts!!!! I write from a home office....with your educations your lives will only be limited by your fears!!!

Realize that you will need money but also realize that a high-paying job DOES NOT buy happiness!!! What if you rented an apartment and worked at a high paying job for 10 years and then suddenly died of a heart attack!!! You can't always be planning for the future, each day should be lived to the fullest!!!

My advice is: don't go into debt a lot. IF you can buy land, buy the land and put up some kind of shack on it (to save RENT!!!) and slowly build your home. And once you get your homestead paid for, don't borrow on it for ANY reason!!! Write for magazines about the environment....write about your experiences....teach lessons to youngsters....possibilities are endless!

Go where your heart takes you NOW!!! suzy

-- Suzy in Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), October 03, 2001.


Hello Sarah, Take a look at my webpage. I started it when I moved here to the Ozarks. It is a progressive history of how Meli, Caroline and I began our homesteading. If we could do it I believe anyone could. Sincerely, Ernest

-- http://communities.msn.com/livingoffthelandintheozarks (espresso42@hotmail.com), October 03, 2001.

Thanks to everyone for all your help! I really appreciate hearing all the different viewpoints. In response to a few people- my major is French, with a German minor, although I don't plan on pursuing a job in that area, at least not right away. Jonathan wants to be a field biologist and as most jobs like that are for short periods of time we may be moving around a lot, at least at first. So although I appreciate the optimism of those who mentioned our "high paying jobs", we probably won't be as well off as you anticipate. However, we plan to develop our homesteading skills by making a little go a long way so we can keep putting money aside, and we are both lucky enough to be graduating debt-free ( I heard another student say the other day that she plans to be paying $300-500 a month for the next 10 years on her college loans!) Kelly, you mentioned working at a local co-op, how do I find out if there is one in my area? What kind of work does it involve? I'd also be interested to hear how many of you have "normal" (e.g. not related to homesteading) jobs and, if you don't mind sharing, how much your expenses are for a month. Also, how much should we plan to have set aside (aside from what we will need to buy our land) when we get started? I'm sure it varies considerably but some idea would be helpful. Thanks again to everyone!

-- Sarah K. (ladynuala@hotmail.com), October 03, 2001.

Sarah, You have gotten a lot of good advice and dog gone it, I just have to put in my two cents worth too. I have a couple of suggestions. 1 get a small town newspaper subscription from the area you are interested in living. Read not only the real estate and job ads, but check out the rest of the news, like the crimes and arrests records, and the grocery ads too. Then find a place to rent and live there and talk to your neighbors and the folks at the feed store and local cafe. You will know very soon if you really want to buy propery and live there. Also, most of the real estate, or the cheap places are sold by word-of-mouth and you just might get a good deal on the place of your dreams. Good luck to you and do not give up on your dreams.

-- Karen in Kansas (kansasgoats@iwon.com), October 03, 2001.

French major well you can work at the many border crossing with Canada .Lots are located in very "farmie" places.Biology , St . Lawrence seaway come to mind .I am talking of upstate near Massena Ny .I also second dont wait to start .Find a small place even to rent on the outskirts of town .I really wish we had done it from the beginning instead of waiting 10 years.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), October 03, 2001.


Suzy now be honest. Think your husbands handyman company would have taken off when he was 20? Doubt it seriously usless it was some sort of speciality like finish cabinetry and he had some excellent references. I know the reason our company does so well is because of my husbands grey hair and his personality, a personality he surely didn't have at 20. I wouldn't even trust a 20 year old to remodle my bathroom, let alone give them the keys to let themselves in and out, something we do all the time. Without good paying jobs, living somewhere they can afford to save, not spend, they will be living in a single wide trailer, with the grass growing around them for a very long time. Jobs they will be able to get in a small town like near me, will not pay them enough to build much of any dream. A very good marriage indeed they will have to have to put up with the stress of being poor. Add some kids to the mix and they will never be ahead.

Bet the good job, save the money, then go about your dream without having to go into debt.

I did like the advice of the smaller homestead to start with, gardening and small animals, something that we did. Then moving onto the larger place. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), October 03, 2001.


Dear Sarah,

-- Liz Rhein (merhein@shentel.net), October 03, 2001.

Sarah-Any vegetarian should be able to tell you where the co-ops are! The one I worked at(Greensboro, N.C.-and I know Durham,N.c> and Knoxville Tn has similar clubs) are basicaly health food type stores where people pay a Membership-about $20 a year and are able to buy food in bulk-sometimes prepackaged. Sometimes the fee is waived if you work a certain amount of hours-it varies from place to place. Sometimes you get discounts if you work. The one I'm involved in now, is quite different, we order only what we want-we go pick it up of the truck-no store frount. Our buying club is Fedration of Ohio River Co-ops (FORC)I don't think they cover PA-I can try to find out if you want. First, just look in phone book, under-(I don't know! I guess under grocery stores and see if a "healthy" name jumps out. Good luck-follow your heart. My husband was a carpenter in his twenties, and we lived in a battered mobile home for longer than I care to think-we're doing just fine.-Two fine kids, also!

-- Kelly (markelly@scrtc.com), October 03, 2001.

Oops! I must have hit the SUBMIT button before I was ready. Sorry! The advice given is good advice. Now you have to choose which advice to take. I would recommend that you avoid making major purchases and sharing life-long dreams with someone who is not willing to make a life-long commitment to you in marriage, too. It makes more sense (for a variety of reasons) to embark on a major venture such as you describe with a spouse than with a boyfriend. Much success to you in your endeavors....

-- Liz Rhein (merhein@shentel.net), October 03, 2001.

Sarah...if you can "dream it" than you can do it! Sometimes if you wait til you have the money, you'll NEVER have enough money!! Hubby and I were in our mid-twenties with a 3 yr. old when we moved to our homestead. Lived in an 8x30' trailer for two yrs. (half of that with no running water or electricity) while we paid off the mortgage on our 100 acres. Then we built our log home...a little at a time to avoid a huge mortgage on that!! Now...in our 50's...we are comfortable with hubby's auto business and my dairy goat business. If you can do it without going deeply into debt, then just do it. Good Luck!!!

-- Marcia (HrMr@webtv.net), October 03, 2001.


I also agree with the advice not to wait! If you wait for everything to be perfect you will never do it, and life will pass you by. If you do get a good job you will be afraid to quit because you won't want to do without the money. We were only 20 and 26 when we bought our place in the late 80's. My husband made $6 an hour and we saved $6000 in 2 years with 2 kids (had one when I was 19. 21, then when I was 23, and 25. The initial $6000 got a roof over our heads and we were able to move here and stop paying rent. We had rented for 4 years exactly at $100 a month and we still hate the fact that we wasted $4800 on rent!!! so I was 22 when I move here and we didn't have much money and still don't, but we are certainly happy, and can do a lot with the money we do have. We have one of the nicest houses I have ever seen, we did all of the work ourselves. I realize that many people probably feel you are too young to really apply yourself, but if you can make a decison when you are young and stick to it, You will gain so much in the years to come. Especially peace of mind,

-- Melissa (cmnorris@1st.net), October 04, 2001.

Sarah... I would suggest, since you are wanting to move to a very snowy and cold climate (during the winter), that maybe you satisfy some of your homesteading desires by stocking up on cold weather clothing and investing in a good 4 wheel drive truck. I've heard of people going for months in the upper pennisula of Michigan without venturing any farther out than the woodpile.

-- Harmony Bullington (harmonyfarm57@hotmail.com), October 04, 2001.

Sarah, you have gotten a lot of good advice to your question, but I would like to add some of my own. You basically get two things here , do it now, or wait. What about doing it a little bit? We live in a poor area, the starting wages around here are between 5 and 6 dollars, and don't expect to ever get over 9. We started out both working fulltime and living in a trailer, but I had a garden, and we raised a pig in a little shed. That year we were 25 and 23 years old, and had a three- and one-year old. We learned , with little help, how to raise ,kill,butcher that pig. Every year since then we grew a little bit bigger. Now we have a nice house on 96 acres , we raise our own beef, pork,lamb ,goat, we have milk, butter, vegetables, and we custom raise meat for other people. We are now 33 and 31, my husband still works for the same company he startedat 4.75$ an hour eight years ago, and he doesn't make 9 $ an hour ,yet. I work only parttime now because it was more important to spend time with the kids. The point is , live the way you want to live AND the way you have to live. As long as you have that dream , you will always do some homesteading, but if time or life decides, that it isn't for you, then it is a lot easier to do a change without being in over your ears. Go slow, and enjoy the process.Good luck Karin

-- karin morey (www.wind_crest@hotmail.com), October 08, 2001.

Hmm. I would suggest doing it a little bit at a time, myself. I tend to agree with Vicki. You both have the power of earning income very soon. Perhaps one of you could get a "serious" job for a while. I do think you should buy your own place (yes, start small and cheap) as soon as you can. Perhaps you could trade off who is working the "serious" job if both of you want to stay home most of the time.

Mr. S. and I worked at "serious" town jobs for the last 20 years. In that amount of time, we have mostly achieved our original goals. Except for the hellacious commuting stuff, we had the quality of lifestyle that we expected while earning not only our land and house payments, but investments for retirement to boot (hard to think of at your age, I know, but when you're in your later years with health issues, etc., you'll likely be grateful.)

We also had many sets of friends (one set in particular sounds very much like you) who started homesteading right out of college. Interesting that one couple has just gone *back* to college (both of them in their early 50s) so they could finally get jobs to earn enough money to be comfortable. They call it looking for "real" jobs. They have lived on their land in their hand-built house with their sheep and gardens for years. Now they find it kind of tough to keep up with rising costs of everything they don't grow, no vacations, and steep medical insurance costs. Another couple divorced a few years after their very sincere and successful (in other ways) homesteading effort. They got lonely out in the boonies and started having affairs with the few other homesteaders around. Yes, it could happen anywhere, but isolation does play a big part. Trust me, that has been a real issue of many folks that we know, especially just after the kids are born or when the adults start turning a little grey...

Just anecdotal stuff here. You probably know in your hearts what you want to do, anyway. At any rate, the best of luck to you.

-- sheepish (WA) (the_original_sheepish@hotmail.com), October 09, 2001.


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