Greetings group..

I never quite introduced myself when I posted a few goat questions last month. So here is a snippet. I am a 40mumble woman living in northern New England. Last spring I sold a super insulated house I built with lot's of help and I am now in my final project house. It is, umm, old and airy. :-) It's about 3500 and was abandoned for ten years. All plumbing was blown. Electric is, amazingly, up to date.

I got an electric water heater in a month ago..after gypsying it to friends houses for a few months. Tomorrow I pick up and finish paying for a ventless propane heater. Then I have to get it installed, etc.

I have been trying to research foamed in place insulation. I've got the sites for a few of the major manufacturers and am awaiting further info from them.

I've got open ceiling situations, flat attic situations, and closed ceiling and closed wall situations. My situation seems perfect for foam. Upon researching foam installers in VT, however, I've only found one in the whole state. And, they want drawings and plans, etc. and charge to come and see a site for review.

I'm nickel and diming it. And I will hunker down in two or three rooms if need be. But, when I spend money on the new glorious hovel I want it spent on products that I can install myself and save on labor. Has anybody here done foamed in place insulation? From what I've read it seems pretty straightforward. Like epoxy. A and B mix at nozzle. Voila. C. I certainly know that companies would be scared to sell this stuff to somebody who might be more clueless than me. Liability and all.

Thoughts?

PC

-- pc (pcha@ludl.tds.net), October 09, 2001

Answers

I am not in the construction business, but have been hearing some bad stuff about foam insulation. The major concern in this area is that the foam not only reduces ventilation (or commonly known as 'allowing a house to breathe'), but will allow moisture to build up and promote mildew growth in the house. This moisture is also promoting rot and in studs, windows, etc.

Another problem with foam, as I hear, is that running new electric lines and the like is EXTREMELY difficult if the foam has been installed in the walls.

Very few homes, if any, in this area are being built with foam insulation for the above mentioned reasons.

-- clove in Indiana (clovis97@Yahoo.com), October 09, 2001.

Not to be contrarian Clover..

But, I'd rather have an 'as tight as possible house within reason' and then open a window or put in an air to air heat exchanger for fresh air.

Air exchanges and moisture problems are far easier to deal with, IMHO. Contractors who tout 'we won't build tight because you will have problems' should be avoided!

Per the electrical lines..while this a concern, most added electrical loads come off an in house panel and are then run through the house. Not exterior walls. No foam. No prob.

I suspect that very few homes are being built in your area using foam for a variety of reasons. New housing can be closed in much cheaper.

I am doing, redoing an historic house however. Foam is, nowadays, used in commercial and high end architechtural projects it seems.

Anybody have any other insights?

Thanks..

-- pc (pcha@ludl.tds.net), October 09, 2001.

We just built a new super tight house-we do have an air exchanger and we do often open windows-we have two children so doors are always being left open....Three of us are very allergic to molds and mildew and it hasn't been a problem-in fact our health is better in this house than any we have lived in. We went with the standard pink Corning fiber batts up in the attic and flat walls-though we used insulation with a higher "R" rating than is typically used in this area much to the consternation of the lumberyard who claimed to carry it then had to special order it for us at thier expense. We did use the foam around plumbing areas, between heating ducts, -those hard to reach places. Its pretty safe-a Professor of chemistry uses it in a demostration he does for school kids-"Hey look! I can mix two liquids and make a solid!" This is a type that Lowes carries-I think its called "Neat STuff" -some funky title, but its pricey. Then there is, I believe, a kind of celulose foam insulation that can be blown in, but I think you have to have someone with equiptment come out and do that-I'll try to ask my husband-he knows tons, but it may be a day or two before I can get back to you-we are on "nasty Schedule week"

-- Kelly in KY (kasderholm@yahoo.com), October 09, 2001.

Do a lot of research. Foam is often used in new costruction in special caes. Its about 2x the price of batts or blown in insulation. YOu have to be very carfull and get low expansion foam or you will blow a wall out. You may want to look into a blown in material. Much more of a do it yourself project. Materials available at your home center and they usually loan you the equipment for little or no charge.

-- Gary (gws@redbird.net), October 09, 2001.

Beware of blown cellulose. Mold hazard.

-- Rose (open_rose@hotmail.com), October 09, 2001.

I'm not sure what you're talking about would adapt to a closed wall situation. Every time I've seen it used has been in open wall areas before the drywall or whatever interior wall material is installed. I can't even conceive of how I'd use it in a closed wall with any degree of effectiveness.

That having been said, have you looked into rental companies in your area to see if they have the equipment you'll need to do this even on your open walls and ceilings? That might be a good place to start. I see ads in a construction trade magazine all the time for what I think you're looking for but doubt if you'll save any money over having it done if you have to purchase the equipment even if you're able to resell it when you're done. I hope this helps.

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), October 09, 2001.

If the house you are restoring has wood siding in already poor to so- so condition, here is something to consider. Doing one side at a time as your finances permit, remove the old siding. You should now see your wall studs and the inside of your interior walls. Make any additional plumping or electric work desired, such as putting in additional electrical outlets on the inside of exterior walls. Now put in fiberglas batting with the paper side to the inside. Over this put the 4'x8' insulation sheets you see used on new construction, over that put air-seal wrap and then new, no- maintenance siding, such as vinyl. If two story, you might do the top floor first, then the first floor.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), October 09, 2001.

Thanks for the discussion folks..

About the blown in cellulose..I've thought about it. It certainly would be less expensive than the foam. But the new blown foams are just so cool. And they have a significantly higher r value than the cellulose.

As with any blown in insulation, one has to be careful about overfill in a cavity. But, the thing I like about the foams is that they can be used in all different situations. I could spray the foundation walls [1/2 the house has limestone slabs, 1/2 has rock walls] without having to stud a wall out. And I could use it in open and closed and vertical and horizontal applications.

Anyways, I've read the technicals from the two companies that seem to be the leaders. The procedure seems pretty straight forward. I'll start adding up footages and email them for prices. It's nothing I can afford in the near future. The roof is the number one priority this year. This winter I will just hunker down with my propane heater and plastic on the windows.

Ken, that's basically how I built my last house. Post and beam first floor, two by six second floor. Inside to out was 1/2" sheetrock, 6 mil poly, 6" fiberglass, 1/2" plywood, tyvek, 1 1/2" polyisocyanurate, siding. It worked out very well. Here in this glorious hovel I plan to use vinyl siding. I'd rather not have to remove the old siding. But, I've never had vinyl before so I don't know what my choices are. Hopefully I can fur out, add some foam board, then side.

But, this is my twenty year project. So, I have time to think things through and ask lots of questions. As far as I can see, this will be my last house. And I want to be as comfortable in it at eighty years old as I am now [or plan to be soon, I should say]. So, things like energy efficiency and ease of maintenance are important considerations for me.

Anyways, thanks again for the thought folks..

PC

-- pc (pcha@ludl.tds.net), October 09, 2001.

our house is about 75 years old the people we bought from put 1/2 inch foilbacked styrofoam under the viynl siding it is not bad considering that we live in the icebox of the world

-- (yorel_56714@yahoo.com), October 11, 2001.

Handi-Foam® SR (Slow Rise) Pour-In-Place Foam is a multi-purpose slow- rise polyurethane foam. It is formulated to slowly rise and fill, insulating large enclosed spaces and deep cavities. Typical applications include filling openings in boats and pontoons; insulating refrigerated trailer floors and walls; and strengthening vinyl and aluminum extensions. Handi-Foam® SR Poured-In-Place Foam is a two-component foam that cures tack-free in 60 to 90 seconds. Handi- Foam® SR is also available in larger refill systems for commercial/industrial applications. Additional product application information is available in the Handi-Foam® SR User Manual. Please contact us if you would like to receive this manual.

P10709 II-100 Handi-Foam® SR (Slow Rise) • Consists of two cylinders, dispensing system & nozzle pack • Free-Rise Density = 1.75lbs per cubic foot (28kg per cubic meter) • In-Place Density = 2.0lbs per cubic foot (32kg per cubic meter) • In-Place Yield = 91 board feet or 7.6 cubic feet (0.22 cubic meters) • Meets Coast Guard specification requirements for flotation in Title 33 Code of Federal Regulations, paragraph 183.114 o Non-CFC; contains no formaldehyde • Packaging information: 24 units/pallet 41lbs (18kg)/unit

-- Greg in Indiana (hogwarrior21@aol.com), January 08, 2002.

I wanted to clear up one of many insulation myths by a earlier post.

I don't know where the previous poster got the idea that blown in cellulose is by itself any kind of mold danger. This is Not the case and has not been shown to be true.

All standard types of insulation can have mold when there is standing water from leaks in them(which means you have a bigger problem than insulation). However the fact is that fiberglass is a bigger problem for mold than cellulose. Cellulose manufactured in the last 30 years has borate solution in it that is for fire prevention & fungus/mold protection. This is done to well known standards.

In addition cellulose is much more energy efficient than fiberglass.

Michael C

-- Michael C (noemailon@webpost.com), January 20, 2002.

DIY Foam Insulation Links & Resources

Remember that even as do it yourself, foam is many times more expensive than standard insulation. The best compromise seems to be for installed blown in sticky cellulose at about 50% more than standard. It also fills in all the small gaps and prevents air infiltration.

Heres over a thousand links on this for you:

http://www.contractorlocate.com/diy/insulation/foaminsulation.html

-- Michael C (noemailon@webposts.com), January 20, 2002.