Recently we have been discussing how the meat in the US might not be the healthy thing to eat. We don't really want to go vegatarian but we were wondering how organic is organic and do any of you buy organic meat. Also, how healthy is the feed that we feed our chickens and goats and then we eat and drink the prodcuts from them. If the feed is all chemical..ed up how really healthy is it for us. Was surprised to find out that most of all the fast food places serve meats from other countries and in supermarkets too. South and Central America's being the first. Even though they are USDA inspected what does that do but say that the meat and the animal look healthy but doesn't tell you how it was fed and with what. My husband is a meatcutter in a local chain store here and he was surprised to find this out too. That sort of upset me...so how does a homesteader raise or buy healthy meats and feed for their table ?? Any help ???

-- Helena (windyacs@npacc.net), October 17, 2001

Answers

If you don't want to raise your own meat, ask around and buy 1/2 beef or pig. It is a large outlay for meat all at once, but if you have a good freezer that will be the meat you need for the year. Organic meat is very expensive here. I have found that small farmers in my area don't use any checmicals or hormones, simply because they can't afford to. I have been really happy with the meat I have gotten from local folks.

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), October 17, 2001.

Hi Helena, If you are lucky, you have an organic feed dealer near you. :-) My sister does and gets that for her turkeys and chickens. I have been buying cracked corn, oats, oil sunflower, etc. and mixing it up myself. When I buy the occasional chicken feed, it has animal protein in it. :-( Now, the cracked corn may still be GMO, I am not sure(like BT corn). Since I live away from any good feed dealers, I try to make do. I am growing my own Mangel Beets (chop up to feed to chickens), I have some corn, wheat, etc. seed that I hope to start a poultry garden. I know Mangel Beets are also called Stock beets, and they used to feed them to stock like cattle or pigs I think. My birds get MOSTLY organic. :) I use the extra eggs, boiled and crumbled, for any extra protein. There are all kinds of mixes from scratch out there, but see what you can provide from your place. Give it a couple of years. The first year I grew Mangels, they were eaten by rabbits or something, and weeds choked out the rest! UGH. Doing much better now.

-- notnow (notnow05@yahoo.com), October 17, 2001.

Yes, Helena, I know the problem. Back in the early 70's I was employed on a formula fed veal operation. The feed was medicated but even so we dumped more antobiotics in the mix. The game was, and is, to make money. "Oh ! your health ? your childrens health ? .....well, uh, we gotta make money." Memorial day weekend of 1997 was the last time I at meat. I decided enough was enough. Fortunately I always liked a variety of foods and didn't have a problem with, "what do I eat now !" I do eat haddock or tuna about once a week, so I'm not a "purist". Just no beef, pork, or poultry. My weight has dropped over 25 lb. , my blood pressure is now a 'low normal' instead of borderline high, my energy level is higher and in general I just feel healthier. Do I miss meat ? oh yeah. This time of year I used to make homemade bacon , sausage, jerky, etc. Lightly smoke some of the sausage. ( I am salivating as I read that last sentence!) Talk about great stuff! But I've surprised myself that I had the will power to change my eating habits. It has been a bit awkward socially. We no longer go out for prime rib with friends. People, at least some of them, think you're wierd. "Don't you feel weak" by not eating meat ? "Don't you miss it?" I'll let you know in 30 years when ( IF !)I'm still healthy and riding bike, skiing, etc. If you don't hear from me then....well then, maybe I should have done the Epicurean thing ! :)

-- Charlie (kneedrop@triwest.net), October 17, 2001.

I would like to ask you folks if you are willing to pay the price you get at the grocery store for organic beef? Our neighbor raises organic beef and did not do well. It is something we could easily do. We do not spray our pastures and We have access to organic grain. We have never used hormones or antibiotics on our beef. Yet we really wonder if we could sell it as organic beef if our neighbor can't do it. I don't have any idea what price he tried to sell it at. Personally I think a lot of this organic stuff is over priced. REmember as producers,we don't get the price you pay at the grocery store.

-- Cindy Herbek (dh40203@navix.net), October 17, 2001.

Helena, We raise our own chickens for meat and eggs. I also hunt for game as it is plentiful. Sincerely, Ernest

-- http://communities.msn.com/livingoffthelandintheozarks (espresso42@hotmail.com), October 17, 2001.

You might try hunting wild game! I don't think you could get anymore organic than that.

-- r.h. in okla. (rhays@sstelco.com), October 17, 2001.

Helena,

I'd try to find a small local farmer that will sell you what you need. Most farmers will sell either a whole or half animal and you have the meat cutter cut it the way you want it. Some small farmers also sell their meat by the cut although it would be much more expensive that way, it is difinately more convenient.

Even if the farmer is not strictly organic, most small farmers feed mostly grain and hay, or silage, and don't usually pump their animals full of hormones and antibiotics. Their animals certinally shouldn't be fed ground up animal parts and chicken manure the way they are in many of the huge confinement operations. When you find a farmer, take a look at his or her animals and see if they appear to be healthy and in good condition and then just ask the farmer what type of things the animals are fed and how often they are medicated. Most of the small farmers I know would be glad to tell you. In fact, many of them would be glad to have a customer that is aware of the differences between what is available in the grocery store and their home grown products.

-- Murray in ME (lkdmfarm@megalink.net), October 17, 2001.

Cindy Herbeck, I think if you would raise meat the way Joel Salatin does, on pasture rotated daily, you would be able to turn a very good profit. In fact, I am today canning 50 lbs of the 1/2 beef we got from Joel Salatin this fall. We picked it up from the butcher shop this morning. He has no problem selling all he can raise. But you see, he doesnt sell it to any middlemen. He simply sells to people he knows, and word has spread, so that he can charge a good price per pound on the hoof, and the local butcher will cut it up and freeze it according to each person's preference.

It's the middleman that takes the profits out of farming, whether you farm organically or conventionally. There is really no way a farmer could bypass the middleman farming conventionally, because customers would rebel at the sight of how the animals are treated so inhumanely. We who treat animals right have a great advantage when it comes to direct marketing.

I would simply let people know you are open for tours, to see how you raise your animals. (You could charge a nominal fee.) Many people, especially homeschoolers, are looking for field trips like this. The public schools wouldnt be a bad idea, either. Nothing like educating youngsters with the truth!

After such tours, you are liable to get a number of orders for healthy meat, from people out there that are just as worried about meat quality as you are.

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), October 17, 2001.

Helena- I've been concerned about meat for some time and while I was willing to go veggie, my family was not-at least not all at once. We're doing this gradually, sort of step by step. We have succcesfully given up fast food. Not wanting to make too big a deal, I agreed that the kids could have a Happy meal as part of a schoolbased outing/treat-they really didn't care for them! I've cut out most processed meat-lunch meat ect. We are trying to get as much local meat as possable-while increasing our vegetarian meals-One thing that worked for me is not give it up completly, but to cook meals that used lttle meat-for example stir fry and chili with beans as opposed to pork chops and hamburgers and I've gradually decreased the amount of meat in those dishes. We also started raising our own chickens for meat and eggs. We're not quite ready to take on the big animals. I've found that I've gotten much less resistantce by being gradual and also not hard and fast rules-I allow the occasional hamburger for example. Hope this helps some.

-- kelly in Ky (ksaderholm@yahoo.com), October 17, 2001.

I am a newspaper reporter and I have visited some plants and sights that would make ANYBODY not want to eat commercially prepared meat!

But I stopped eating meat back in January for an entirely different reason....once we really got into raising animals big time and I realized how even what is supposed to be the "dumbest" animals all have unique personalities, I couldn't eat them anymore! I know some of you on this forum think that's dumb and that's your right but that's the way I feel.

I'll still continue to subscribe to COUNTRYSIDE, small stock journal, and be active on this forum because I've learned so much and still think I have a lot to share. I raise my Angora rabbits for fiber, not meat, so I can enjoy the little pets and not have to eat them!

-- Suzy in Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), October 17, 2001.

I forgot to mention that my doctor has discovered I have developed a high blood pressure problem and one of the things he told me was to cut out red meat. I told him that was no problem because I hadn't eaten ANY meat since January!

-- Suzy in Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), October 17, 2001.

Suzy, sounds like your doc is behind on keeping up with late research. Actually, LEAN red meat is very good for your blood pressure!

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), October 17, 2001.

Helena,

You said

"how healthy is the feed that we feed our chickens and goats and then we eat and drink the prodcuts from them." end snip

Does this mean you raise chickens and goats?

-- westbrook (westbrook_farms@yahoo.com), October 17, 2001.

We raise our own meat, so we can be sure there are no growth hormones, questionable animal proteins, and unnecessary antibiotics in it! All our animals are on pasture - no chemical sprays, of course. Even my rabbits are fed primarily on pasture - grasses, flowers and weeds which my girls and I pick for them, and hay and veggies. All our chickens, ducks and turkeys are free range. Now, I'm sure they're not 100% organic, but they're close enough for us.

Suzy in Bama - I don't think you're dumb. All animals do have distinct personalities, and it's certainly your right not to eat them! I also appreciate you not blasting those of us who have chosen to eat meat. It seems that so many people who have chosen to be vegetarians become downright nasty about it. Glad to see you're not one of those!

-- Cheryl in KS (cherylmccoy@rocketmail.com), October 17, 2001.

I was amazed to see just last night on CNN that heavy meateaters are at an increased risk for stomach cancer. Something about the colestrol. No mention of the 70 or 80lbs of chemicals animals are fed to reduce health problems or increase growth rates. Yet another example of how it pays to know what your eating and what it ate.

-- Rog (rw285@isoc.net), October 17, 2001.

I agree with Suzy!!! After hauling cowhides out of the slaughter houses for many years, and seeing how and what they process, that alone would have stopped my eating red meat of all kinds!!! But, like Suzy, after raising all types of critters on the farm, I now realize that I don't want my food to have a face. They are living, breathing, pain feeling creatures that deserve as much as we do to share this Earth with us.

I used to have HBP and elevated cholesterol too, before I went lacto- ovo vegetarian, no longer now!!! My cardiologist says that if all his patients ate like I do, he would be out of business in a hurry, and would have to find another speciality.

Heart disease kills one in five Americans, it is by far the leading killer in the developed countries of the world. Sadly, it would be the easiest to "cure", but folks would rather take a pill or have open heart surgery than make a lifestyle change. They don't understand "You are what you eat, and eventually, it will kill you".

Also, even the leanest of red meat still contains at least 20% fat, way too much for a heart healthy diet, and chicken meat contains 20% fat too, there is no "healthy" meat.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), October 17, 2001.

One thing that is of concern is a possible link between processed meats with hormones and the early onset of menses in girls.

Cindy, whether you do well or not probably depends on the area you're in. California is really big on organic everything (kind of an attitude thing), whereas your state may not be. Also, what you might try doing is hooking up with say a local restaurant that wants to provide organic meals.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), October 17, 2001.

I can't keep up with the requests to be put on a list for my free range chicken even though I am not strictly organic. I use unmedicated feed and buy organic when I can afford it. People that buy it don't mind that its not organic but they do like that its raised as naturally as possible and not in some big chicken factory full of disease and meds. The same with the pork and lamb we raised this year. The organic feeds really put costs up but as a family we felt it was worth every penny. Buyers however don't always care for that increase so to keep my purchasers happy I did feed some commercial unmedicated feed. I dither whether to raise totally organic and devil take the hindmost or try and make others happy. And having just written that I think I know where my heart lies! :o) Now, would I pay another for organic meat? Probably not because of the mark up and at least by raising it myself the costs is spread out over months. Last time I saw the price of organic chicken it was $6 a pound and I cannot afford that!

-- Alison in N.S. (aproteau@istar.ca), October 18, 2001.

I am a cattle farmer so am somewhat familiar with practices. Almost no one feeds their cattle grain on a regular basis. It simply isn't profitable. My cattle get almost nothing but grass and hay. Only grain is an occasional range cube as a treat. I would say if you buy a steer or something at the local livestock auction for the freezer, changes of their ever having tasted grain are slim. I don't know of a single person in the local area who puts growth hormone plugs in the ears of newborn calves. Simply too hard to catch them and hold them down to get the plugs in.

It's what comes out of the feedlots which has the problems. See below: Study Finds Tainted, Drug-Resistant Meats Common

By Gene Emery Reuters

BOSTON (Oct. 18) - Harmful bacteria in meat and poultry are becoming more resistant to antibiotics due to the long-controversial practice of feeding the drugs to cattle and other food animals, according to research published in Thursday's New England Journal of Medicine.

The practice of giving healthy livestock antibiotics to promote growth and profits makes salmonella and similar organisms that sometimes can cause severe diseases immune to the drugs and should be scrapped, according to an accompanying editorial.

The new research, along with previous studies "represent the proverbial smoking gun" that demonstrates why it is time to stop feeding antibiotics to livestock, said Dr. Sherwood Gorbach in the editorial.

Gorbach, of the Tufts University School of Medicine in Boston, said antibiotics should only be given to individual animals that have been examined by a veterinarian, and even those animals should not be allowed to receive antibiotics that are important for curing human disease.

In addition, he said, the practice of giving antibiotics to animals to promote growth should be banned.

Researchers have been trying to raise the alarm for years about the widespread practice of feeding antibiotics to food animals.

The Union of Concerned Scientists, a science-based advocacy group opposed to the use of antibiotics in livestock, estimated earlier this year that while 3 million pounds of antibiotics are given to humans each year, 26.6 million pounds are given to animals.

About 24.6 million pounds of that goes to animals that are not sick.

Doctors may play a role in breeding antibiotic resistance because they overuse the drugs in humans, but the widespread use of antibiotics in animals contributes to the problem, Gorbach said.

Proponents of animal antibiotic use contend the drugs make food production more efficient and profitable, Gorbach said.

However, he said, "there are alternatives, as shown in Europe after the use of these drugs was abandoned. The economic losses could be minimized and even neutralized by improvements in animal husbandry, the quality of feed, and hygiene."

Nearly 1.4 million cases of salmonella poisoning occur in the United States each year from eating contaminated beef, pork, poultry, eggs and milk. The risk is highest among the elderly and people whose immune systems are not working properly.

In the latest study investigators from the Food and Drug Administration found that 20 percent of the 200 samples of ground chicken, beef, turkey, and pork purchased at three Washington D.C.- area supermarkets contained salmonella, which causes food poisoning.

In addition, 84 percent of those salmonella bacteria were resistant to at least one type of antibiotic; 53 percent were resistant to three.

Another study in the Journal tested chicken products in four states and found 17 percent harbored drug-resistant bacteria.

01:47 10-18-01

As noted above, if you buy from a known source, you are far better off.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), October 18, 2001.

I stopped eating meat 6 years ago, not for my health, but for ethical reasons. I suggest finding a local processor, the animals are generally local, trucked in by a farmer, had fewer chemicals and antibiotics and are slaughtered humanely (as possible) I object to animals being trucked hundreds of miles, deprived of food and water (this is done by local farmers as well, but not for a prolonged period) and slaughtered cruely, sometimes gaffed and gutted while they are still concious. You'll want to stay away from ground meats. There is such a hig demand that the local butcher has to bring it in from the big slaughter houses, increasing the risk of e- coli, etc.

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), October 19, 2001.

I live in one of the major pork producing states (Iowa) and most all of the small hog operations are gone. Today it is raised in "hog confinements" which are nothing more than concentration camps for hogs, long single story barns where the hogs are injected with chemicals to make them grow faster and receive little if any exercise. Pork is one product to avoid unless you raise it yourself or know its source.

-- fred (fred@mddc.com), October 21, 2001.

Please consider reading a book called 'Mad Cowboy-plain truth from the cattle rancher who won't eat meat" by Howard F. Lyman. I came across it accidentally in the book store the other day and it is frightening.Amongst other things,about how thousands of pounds of euthanized cats and dogs from shelters,road kill and chicken excrement are used in modern cattle feed.

-- Alison Abbott (akabbott0@yahoo.com), December 24, 2001.

I have read the Lyman book. Most of us on this forum are well versed in the idiocy of conventional agriculture, and have long avoided buying 'food' from grocery stores. Lyman's choice to express his disgust at factory farming by refusing to eat meat,and encouraging others to join him, is , IMO, not only silly, but short-sighted and futile.

Raise your own meat. Buy from neighbors you trust. Buy organic, if you can afford to. Support sustainable farmers. The system doesnt care if you stop eating meat, they'd just as soon feed you phoney food like chemical-laden, GMO soyfoods anyway, but it will start to notice when a critical mass of us are acquiring our animal protein outside the conventional loop. Small farmers are the salvation of the planet, pure and simple. You can make your very important contribution; let's put our money where our mouths are, and educate ourselves about this issue.

Peace

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), December 24, 2001.

Good points earthmama,what food I can't grow for myself in my small backyard I purchase from the local food co-op that I'm lucky to have 1/2 a mile from my house,or from our farmers market where vendors are only allowed to sell what they raise themselves.I am able to make these choices because of where I live-people in most towns in America rely solely on the local Kroger/Piggly Wiggly/Food Lion etc...what choice do they have? Also,with the sheer volume of meat and animal products consumed in this country do you think small farmers could ever really meet the demand? I seriously doubt it,reducing the amount of meat we consume is a necessary part of changing current farming habits. I don't think encouraging people not to eat meat is silly or short sighted.We need people like Lyman to present the truth so that people can make informed choices about what they eat,some will choose not to eat meat,some will decide to continue to eat it,but put more care into finding out how it was produced.Some will change nothing,but without the information things will not change at all.

-- Alison (akabbott@yahoo.com), December 25, 2001.

Do I think small farmers could replace the polluting food giants? You betcha I do. We'd need thousands more small farmers, each growing food for 50 to 100 families, especially surrounding big and medium sized cities.

Do the people in small towns have a choice where they buy their food? Sure they do, same as you and I do. They can just as easily hook up to a local farmer or CSA for most of their food needs, with very little effort. Sad fact is, though, most people don't care enough to bother. They want convenienence and cheap "food." We can't change them, they've chosen these priorities over the health of their families and of the planet. But any movement only needs a small critical mass to be effective, only needs those of us who see the big picture, who are willing to put our money where our mouths are, and who would rather die than shop at Krogers or their brethren.

As far as Lyman sharing the 'truth', well truth is a relative term, it seems. His spiels about vegetarianism are anything but truth to me personally; all can be easily refuted. There is absolutely nothing environmentally sound about wide-scale vegetarianism; in fact, it is a direct recipe for planetary disaster. Small-scale, grass-based, sustainable farms that incorporate livestock in the natural cycle of life are what can save the eco-system. No, I do not see eating less meat as necessary, or even desirable to 'change current farming habits'. Animal protein, raised naturally, on grass or forbs, is still the best way for low-income people the world over to nourish both themselves and their environment.

Peace,

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), December 27, 2001.

-- Alison Abbott

This must be a new one from him. I am familiar with his, 'Beyond Beef' book, and attended a lecture he put on.

I would not trust him to give me change for a dollar bill.

If you have reasons for not eating meat, that's cool. But please don't let it be the rantings of people like Lyman or the others who use fear & lies to sell their books & sell their speeches.

They don't let facts get in their way. Bad people.

--->Paul

-- paul (ramblerplm@hotmail.com), December 27, 2001.

OK,I agree I should not have recommended a book that I had only read a couple of pages of,that was foolish.However,setting that aside for a moment earthmama is definately getting into ranting here and extremely poorly informed ranting at that. As the wife of a Phd ecolgist,and the sister of a physician I have access to enough soundly researched information to be sure that eathmama has enough of a personal agenda to accept misinformation that fits into her firmly held beliefs. just to be sure,when everyone gets back to town when the semester starts next week,I'll take the postings read here to our regular 'NEWAG' (New age agriculture) meeting to try to iron out the facts from fiction presented here.Two of the organizers of these meetings are the leading sustainable agriculture researchers in the world,so they should be able to shed some light.Also,one of them vegetarian and one of them is a died in the wool carnivore,which helps keep things balanced. I'll let you know what I find out.My only agenda is to get as close to the truth as possible,whether I like what I discover or not.

-- Alison (akabbott@Yahoo.com), December 30, 2001.

Earthmama,could you please provide some background on your statement about widespred vegtarianism leading to global disaster? I would love to know what data this assumption is based on.

-- Alison (akabbott0@yahoo.com), December 30, 2001.