In the Demiurge episode, Trevor is sitting in his office after the battle, and the radio/TV is on behind him. We hear a female voice over read

" of dreams the rites of youth fade like pale smoke, on embers dust of bloods of loss, we ask, whom serves this vantage of hideous strength? To reap another harvest "

And Trevor switches the thing off. AeonFlux has alot of wonderful original lines, but this feels older then that. Can anyone help me find the rest of this and where it is originally from? (IF it is not originally from aeon-flux.) IT has been driving me mad since I first heard it!!!

-- GreyGhost (gryghost@opcnet.com), October 18, 2001

Answers

I don't remember that and I intend to watch it to hear it. It is lovely.

-- Barb e. (Suesuebeo9@cs.com), November 03, 2001.

That Hideous Strength?

-- Eternal Triangle (foo@bar.com), November 12, 2001.

If it's the CS lewis book, I can't find the quote in it, but on the other hand I don't have the time to read it in depth. I have looked through it for the quote, but no luck. I think it's from somewhere else..............

-- GreyGhost (gryghost@opcnet.com), November 12, 2001.

Yeah I was thinking "That Hideous Strength" Perelandra trilogy; Second Volume, by C.S. Lewis), too.

Chung should know for sure because he wrote that one with - GGoddamnit who were those two guys that did "Miracle Mile"? -dangerboy UNTETHERED (or, LISTLESS at the least)

-- dangerboy (artian@earthlink.net), November 12, 2001.

Response to Help with with a quote from the "Demiurge" episod

Miracle Mile... I loved that movie, man. Coolest thing to come out of the 80's. You're thinking of DeJarnatt (the writer+director), who I've just gotta say, is a cool cat - a bit nihilistic maybe, but cool. Check out his X-Files ep, "Fearful Symmetry", if you get the chance.

-- Inukko (nadisrec@worldnet.att.net), November 12, 2001.

Response to Help with with a quote from the "Demiurge" episod

Why does it put that "Response to..." thing over my post?

-- Inukko (nadisrec@worldnet.att.net), November 12, 2001.

Inukko, it's cause you are responding to my post, and don't seem to actually seem to be in context.

Everyone, is there any way we can ask Chung?

-- GreyGhost (Gryghost@opcnet.com), November 13, 2001.

THE DEMIURGE is this unqualified anomaly of television cinema or something - you get on it and you're spun without any warning into this Rube Goldberg-designed pinball machine that you don't know has already gone totally out of control in its own malinear/ absurdist narrative-imperative, mercenary supermission to retrieve some soon any tether or trace or at All - (unin)teleologistical associative or elsewise - after every algorhythm rhyme or reason.

Just a piece of gaffer tape should do - take a card, any card. You learn how everyanysomething nothing happens for a reason is you try sometimes you improvise - say Y2K-sera-sera!! Yuh git watcha Instant Dogma!

This woman on a mission to assassinate God!

NOTHING could be further than a Truth....

-- dangerboy (artian@earthlink.net), November 13, 2001.

Response to Help with with a quote from the "Demiurge" episod

GreyGhost, we go off topic so much in this forum, it'll blow your mind. In my case, I'm just thrilled to find another person who knows that film. I haven't seen Demiurge in a while, but that quote sounds awfully Victorian to me... anyone familiar with 18th/19th century lit?

-- Inukko (nadisrec@worldnet.att.net), November 13, 2001.

Response to Help with with a quote from the "Demiurge" episod

Oh yeah, if you want to ask Chung about it, go ahead and email him. His address is on all of his (recent) posts here. I'm sure he won't mind.

-- Inukko (nadisrec@worldnet.att.net), November 13, 2001.

Don't worry you know. Man be riding this one out. He see

Is he going to have a field day riot with our little shit or what

-- dangerboy (artian@earthlink.net), November 13, 2001.

Hey Greyghost,

I actually study english literature (specializing in Romantic/Gothic literature) and I've never been able to put a finger to the origins of that line. Sounds something William Blake would say...

As for Lewis...it could be..but I can't draw a parallel to any of his works. Nevertheless..I will agree that it is a beautiful line

-- Ron (Seldszar@hotmail.com), November 23, 2001.

1) Slam "poetry" is for suckers; slam is to poetry what William Shatner is to acting. Dangerboy, this means you. Someday you'll thank me.

2) From an online Catholic dictionary:

DEMIURGE "The word means literally a public worker, demioergós, demiourgós, and was originally used to designate any craftsman plying his craft or trade for the use of the public. Soon, however, technítes and other words began to be used to designate the common artisan while demiurge was set aside for the Great Artificer or Fabricator, the Architect of the universe. At first the words toû kósmou were added to distinguish the great Workman from others, but gradually demiourgós became the technical term for the Maker of heaven and earth. In this sense it is used frequently by Plato in his "Timæus". Although often loosely employed by the Fathers and others to indicate the Creator, the word never strictly meant "one who produces out of nothing" (for this the Greeks used ktístes), but only "one who fashions, shapes, and models". A creator in the sense of Christian theology has no place in heathen philosophy, which always presupposes the existence of matter. Moreover, according to Greek philosophy the world-maker is not necessarily identical with God, as first and supreme source of all things; he may be distinct from and inferior to the supreme spirit, though he may also be the practical expression of the reason of God, the Logos as operative in the harmony of the universe. In this sense, i.e. that of a world-maker distinct from the Supreme God, Demiurge became a common term in Gnosticism. The Gnostics, however, were not satisfied merely to emphasize the distinction between the Supreme God, or God the Father, and the Demiurge, but in many of their systems they conceived the relation of the Demiurge to the Supreme God as one of actual antagonism, and the Demiurge became the personification of the power of evil, the Satan of Gnosticism, with whom the faithful had to wage war to the end that they might be pleasing to the Good God. The Gnostic Demiurge then assumes a surprising likeness to Ahriman, the evil counter-creator of Ormuzd in Mazdean philosophy. The character of the Gnostic Demiurge became still more complicated when in some systems he was identified with Jehovah, the God of the Jews or of the Old Testament, and was brought in opposition to Christ of the New Testament, the Only- Begotten Son of the Supreme and Good God. The purpose of Christ's coming as Saviour and Redeemer was to rescue us from the power of the Demiurge, the lord of the world of this darkness, and bring us to the light of the Good God, His Father in heaven. The last development in the character of the Demiurge was due to Jehovah being primarily considered as he who gave the Law on Sinai, and hence as the originator of all restraint on the human will. As the Demiurge was essentially evil, all his work was such; in consequence all law was intrinsically evil and the duty of the children of the Good God was to transgress this law and to trample upon its precepts. This led to the wildest orgies of Antinomian Gnosticism."

There's more and it's good stuff. See: http://www.newadvent.org/

3) I don't know anything about gnosticism, but I did see that episode and it was heavy on the gender politics. At the time, I thought the people who wrote the script chose the term "demiurge" because it sounds cool, but after looking at the etymology of the word I'm not so sure.

-- Arctor (abuse@utexas.edu), December 29, 2001.

I've heard the Demiurge described as, among all the things already mentioned, the artificer of the material universe. In this case he can be distinguished from God in that the Demiurge represents the knowable universe while God is fundamentally unknowable. The show deals with these issues in very interesting ways. First of all you have a reenactment of the battle between order and chaos taking place between Aeon and Trevor. Trevor naturally represents the Demiurge because the Demiurge represents absolute knowledge of tangible forms. Aeon, on the other hand, wants nothing to do with good old, knowable reality. She represents the unpredictable and the unknowable aspects of the universe. What's interesting is that in mythology the Demiurge is an inferior deity to God, and in fact in some cases, the Gnostics being one, he/she/it was an agent of God who's duty it was to fashion the material universe out of chaos. So who do we expect to win this fight, eh?

I also love the way the Demiurge is depicted in the episode. He's got the halo, the robes, and the magical powers of a spiritual holy man, yet circling within his chest cavity is tetrahedron, which is one of the five Platonic Solids. And Plato was the founder of Western thought as we know it; formal, logical thought representing order, as opposed to the more artistic chaotic thought. It's also cool how the Demiurge's conflicting mythological roles are replayed in the way he brings about so much death and destruction in the show, even though he is trying to save people.

-- Logo (Vosepherus@aol.com), December 31, 2001.

Actually... if yu are searching fr the origions of the demiurge concept... think greek. Plato, specifically. He used the term some time before that silly dictionary was about.

as for the quote, I don't know. but it's defenately from, or in the stile of victorian english... shakespereian almost...

and I am sure that nobody checks this board anymore... but there you have it... and perhaps a clue?

-- PaRaDoX (paradox999@yahoo.com), February 01, 2002.

what is peter chung's email address?

-- bill higgins (intro2philosophy@yahoo.com), February 21, 2002.

There is just one problem with the Catholic Dictionary definition of the Demiurge: Never trust a Christian to define Gnosticism.

Remember the Spanish Inquisition ? Guess who died and was tortured in it as well.

To Christianity, Gnosticism is heresy. Therefore, I have trouble trusting any subsequent definitions of Aodabaoth, Sophia, the Demiurge, or the Archons or whathaveyou.

In many ways, according so some definitions of the Demiurge (both good and evil) Trevor matches the definition most.

But the key thing about Gnosticism is that everything and all definitions should be questioned. The crap they teach you in school about "Faith Alone" is crap!! Gnostics weren't exclusively interested in faith. That's more of a Christian concept.

Even the term Gnostic is inappropriate when you start comparing actual concepts of so-called Gnostics and non-Gnostics. There's much more than the European-Judeo-Christian stuff, but most definitions just stick to that.

Given that Peter Chung's heritage is not limited to that, I assume that his concept of Gnosticism is likewise more sophisticated.

Feel free to ponder this.

-- Day of Brahma (DayOfBrahma@aol.com), October 26, 2004.