In connection with Mitch's question on child abuse. I have been thinking about how I handle my own children in public. I don't abuse them but I have been known to spank them in public. Do you think this is a good idea? I need advice from seasoned veterans. They are usually at their worst on the bus ride home. We have to take two buses from child care and they are usually tired hungry and restless.

-- mindy (speciallady@countrylife.net), November 09, 2001

Answers

In my day (my kids are 34 and 31)I would have spanked lightly or threatened punishment when we got home. In today's climate, I wouldn't touch them. With both girls, a threat was usually enough. On that busride home, would it be appropriate to give them a spillproof snack to occupy and take the edge off the hunger? Maybe apple slices, granola bar, dry cereal. If they are old enough, sight games are good, too. Onelike "Slug Bug". I don't know if that's a real game or just one that the grandkids made up over time. First one to see a VW bug shouts out red slugbug, or green slugbug, depending on the color. They can really get competetive. Or find the colors or count the trucks, etc. And with those snacks, maybe one snack on the first bus, then a second snack on the second bus. And so what if it is an appetite spoiler? Make it nutritions and don't worry if they don't eat a big supper.

-- melina b. (goatgalmjb1@hotmail.com), November 09, 2001.

In my day (my kids are 34 and 31)I would have spanked lightly or threatened punishment when we got home. In today's climate, I wouldn't touch them. With both girls, a threat was usually enough. On that busride home, would it be appropriate to give them a spillproof snack to occupy and take the edge off the hunger? Maybe apple slices, granola bar, dry cereal. If they are old enough, sight games are good, too. One like "Slug Bug". I don't know if that's a real game or just one that the grandkids made up over time. First one to see a VW bug shouts out red slugbug, or green slugbug, depending on the color. They can really get competetive. Or find the colors or count the trucks, etc. And with those snacks, maybe one snack on the first bus, then a second snack on the second bus. And so what if it is an appetite spoiler? Make it nutritions and don't worry if they don't eat a big supper.

-- melina b. (goatgalmjb1@hotmail.com), November 09, 2001.

My children ages 31 and 38 still laugh at "THE LOOK"! That was what they got if they misbehaved at public. It meant "Stop that or when we get home you will be spanked"! And, if they misbehaved they did get punished!

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), November 09, 2001.

The look doesn't even phase my kids they just give me the look right back and go on doing whatever they were doing.

-- mindy (speciallady@countrylife.net), November 09, 2001.

I personally have rarely used spanking as a punishment. In truth the effect seems to decrease the more it is used, you have to spank harder and harder to get the same effect. I have found that through a method of extra chores, sitting in their rooms alone (they hate this) and with-holding special privleges that spanking is just not needed. I think that if you are spanking kids who are over 12, especially, you probably did something wrong when they were little (not being consistent with discipline) Please don't be offended by this anyone, I know children are all differnt and parents have their own methods, this is just my thoughts. I have taught my children to do the right thing because they love us, and want to be good people. Also using Bible-based instruction from the time they were born!!

For the bus ride homne, the children need to be taught to sit quietly in their seats. Just tell them this over and over and do not accept any other behaviour. You will sound like a broken record!!! But be firm, and make them do what you want them to. When they are behaving properly, praise them to the heavens. (All of the people on the bus will probably praise them too!!) which will make them feel proud of their good behaviour, and strive to fulfill others expectations of them.

Have you ever heard of self-fulfilling propecy? If you repeatedly tell a child how "bad" they are, guess what? You will have a bad child. But if you consistently tell them how good, grown-up, kind, smart, fun, etc... they are, that is what they will become!!!

When my kids mis-behave we usually, in a mature way discuss why we did not like what they did. Try to make them walk in the other persons shoes, and explain tht we want them to be good people that the family can be proud of. We never tell them they are bad, or insult them, but try to make them see what they need to change to become a better person. As they get older, the need for these talks seems to decrease. In my experience most mis-behaviour seems to peak about the ages of 7-10, before that they want to make you happy, so they are usually pretty good, and after this they have heard all the talks and really are striving to live by the Bible based principles we have taught them!!!

I know it is hard for you Mindy, being a single mother, but a few years of very strict discipline will really pay off in the long run.

-- Melissa (me@home.net), November 09, 2001.

Mindy~ I am just now reading a book called "Creative Discipline" written by Lisa Whelchel (she was Blair on the old"Facts of Life" show) in cooperation with Focus on the Family. She gives excellent scripture references for different behavior, i.e. whining, or acting out. I am not finished yet, but it was recommended to me by my SIL. So far, I have been impressed with what she has to say.

One thing to try is to discuss what behavior will or will not allowed on the bus, BEFORE you get on the bus. When someone does what is allowed, praise and remind them that this is what you agreed upon before the ride. I also think the snack idea is good. They probably are hungry after daycare all day. Also, if you can find an inexpensive tape headset, music really does sooth my kids and helps us a lot on long trips.

I will pray for you, that your children will respond better to your discipline on the bus. Prayer is the best defense of all.

-- Ivy in NW AR (balch84@cox-internet.com), November 09, 2001.

On a few weeks you can send the oldest two to grandma's :~}and then when you get the youngest potty trained, you can send her too. After a few days the middle one doesn't need aspanking any more, well rarely

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony@countrylife.net), November 09, 2001.

And to add to that. Spanking is better than screaming or talking down to, just don't spank in public unless it's for something that puts the kid in danger.

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony@countrylife.net), November 09, 2001.

If 'the look' doesn't work, you can apply pressure with two fingers, on either side in the muscle just above the collarbone, near the neck. That gets their attention and it is not real obvious like spanking is. The problem is that my son has learned to collapse at the slightest hint of pressure and fall to the floor screaming OW OW OW MOM, you HURT ME! You almost KILLED me!!! (sigh)

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), November 09, 2001.

My son know's how far he can push me in public.If "the look" doesn't get to him, a short trip to the bathroom does. If I have to spank in public, I will take him to the bathroom. If there is no bathroom, I will talk to him about what he's done and tell him he will get deciplined when we get home.Then when we get home he has to tell me what he did, why it was wrong and why he is getting in trouble. I do have to say, God did bless me with a very good baby and toddler. It's just now we are getting into the talking back and hateful stage.I go to Wal-Mart about once a month.On one of my trips a couple months ago, he talked back and got into big trouble when we first got there. The talk did not seem to promote reflective thinking so as he continued to be naughty, I left my cart,picked up my purse and walked out with him. We came home and he got deciplined when we got home.I was mad,because this meant I would have to make another trip,but I do think it has paid off. He know's I am serious and will follow thru with what I say. Needless to say he hasn't acted up in public since.Praise God!Good Luck!

-- Micheale from SE Kansas (mbfrye@totelcsi.net), November 09, 2001.

Micheale, I admire what you did! It took real mothering to take him home like that! Some mothers would have made everyone around her hear their child be naughty. When I see a naughty child getting away with it in a store, I want to ask the parents what they are going to do with their kids when they are teenagers. God help the parent who doesn't insist on good behavior in children when they are small.

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), November 09, 2001.

I hit the "submit" too soon! I have another thing to share. When my daughter tells me about any discipline problem she might have I ask her one question: "Who is the parent and who is the child?" When my children would question me about why I made them behave, I'd say cause I am the mother and you are the child!

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), November 09, 2001.

I never spanked any of my children..do not believe in it. My kids were extremely well-behaved because we taught them that if they mis- behave, nobody will lose more than they will..time outs, privileges taken away, etc......the trick to getting the children to behave the way you want them to is to be forever consistent..if yelling at your sister is a no-no on Monday, then it is a no-no every day of the week..if a parent says "You will NOT stay up and watch TV after supper, then they must NOT allow the child to stay up..I don't care how cute they are (believe me, they can be wonderfully cute when sulking)....you are not their friend ot their confidant, you are their loving, caring parent whose job it is to educate them to become adults......you know you've lost control when the behavior does not change......The bus ride could be a time of FUN for all of you..be creative...it'll work!

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), November 09, 2001.

There is nothing wrong with a little spank to get your point across.My Mom used to squeeze my hand in the store if I was not good.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), November 09, 2001.

My mom used to say,

"If you had asked me after my first two how to raise children, I would have said,'Do this, and this, and this, and it will work'...And then I had Cathy!"

Yes, I was quite the independent little woman from the first day. My mom says I potty-trained myself at age one. As I grew, she tried this and that and the other thing to get me to do what she said, but she was never really consistent with any one thing. I knew I could get away with just about anything if I was sneaky enough or stubborn enough. My mom never really did get it across to me that she was the boss, but my dad did! I knew he meant what he said and although I pushed him sometimes, I usually did what he said right away. Funny thing, my dad and I ended up VERY close during my teen years, while my mom and I drifted further and further apart. I was several years into my marriage before we began to heal our relationship.

Okay, I'm rambling a bit here. Sorry! My point is, whatever you set as consequences for wrong behaviour, STICK TO IT! Don't slip, even once, or your word won't mean a thing. Someone said to me once that if you say you will do a thing (whether threat of discipline or promise of reward) and then don't do it, you are lying to your kids. I had never heard it put so strongly before, and it really made me think.

-- Cathy N. (keeper8@attcanada.ca), November 09, 2001.

As I Dad I think that Cathy has it nailed. If you say it, mean it, and be careful of what you say. My wife, a great mother, finds it hard to be consistent and the kids pick up on this and drive her to frustration sometimes. Still, its harder for her since she has to hold down the fort the entire day against darlings that have lots of free mental time to test her and come up with ways around her. At those times when I've had to have the onslaught for a few days it has nearly worn me down - you can get just too tired to punish a minor offense at the end of the day.

It is a lot easier to come home and lay down the law with a stern voice and follow through. The darlings are easily awed and hop to it. Of course, this can further frustrate wife as it seems so simple.

Together we have it worked out pretty well though. And the kids know that if they disobey their mom then they have me to deal with.

In my unreconstucted neoprogressive southern state public spanking is highly accepted. I have noticed that they kids will get the clue and become uncontrolable if you refrain from spanking in public situation. However, it only takes a couple of demonstrations for them to reappraise the reality when you follow through.

-- charles (clb@dixienet.com), November 09, 2001.

While I agree in principle with those who choose not to spank, I remember an old "Happy Days" episode. Ritchie was trying to face down some bullies. He wanted to know Fonzie's secret. Fonzie told him, to have a reputation of being a tough guy, sooner or later you gotta hit somebody. While I never advocate hitting hard enough to inflict injury, talk can take you just so far. There are strong willed children who will push you to the edge everytime, knowing you won't do anything. Compliant children are easy. You can reason, bribe, whatever. The strong-willed ones sometimes need a little more. And everyone here is right on when they mention consistency. Your yes must be yes, and your no must be no, every time.

-- melina b. (goatgalmjb1@hotmail.com), November 09, 2001.

Melina reminded me of the old Teddy Roosevelt policy: Speak softly and carry a big stick!

-- Cathy N. (keeper8@attcanada.ca), November 09, 2001.

Melina reminds me of what I sometimes tell my daughter in regard to discipline: "Sometimes one spanking is worth a thousand words". I think that sometimes parents hammer and hammer at children with words until the kids are thinking "Yadda yadda yadda". In other words, they've heard it all before and nothing came of it, so why bother.

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), November 10, 2001.

I was never spanked, not one time. Too bad, you'll never convince me that I wouldn't have been better off with a spanking now and then.

-- Cindy (S.E.IN) (atilrthehony@countrylife.net), November 10, 2001.

I have a friend who has her children so well trained!! If they are in the public eye she will tell them when they get home they better get her the belt and remind her to spake them for what they done. Believe me those kids are angelsand ARE NOT mistreated in any way. If they "forget" to remind her they get twice as much. They are raised by the Bible, they are not scared of them. they raised them that way from small ages. They are now in teen age years and may get one or two spankings a year

-- Sandy(N.E.FL.) (REDNECKGIRL32@prodigy.net), November 10, 2001.

Melinda, when my children were small I did not hesitate to swat them on the bottom in public if necessary. Today is a different story. You can be put in jail if you look at your own kids wrong now a days! I would certainly spank them at home in private but only when you can do it when you are not angry. If you are angry, you may go overboard. Children need consistency. If you tell them you are going to punish them when you get home, do it. They need to know you mean what you say. It may take a few times, but if you stick to your guns and don't give in, they will soon learn you mean business. I realize some kids are stronger willed than others but they just need a little more discipline!

-- Barb in Ky. (bjconthefarm@yahoo.com), November 10, 2001.

I've never spanked my kids(6 and 8) but once in a great while I dish out a little smack on the back of their head to smarten them up ; ) I'd never do it out in public though because of the way the world is now. I've also mastered 'the look' that Ardie mentioned and that's usually all it takes. My daughter rarely has a problem but my son can get a bit hyper at times. I've found that witholding priviledges, confinement to their room, rewards for good behavior works for me. An example is "if you two are good and quiet for the next hour, you can have a treat", or 'if neither of you mess up for the next 3 days, we'll go to the beach'. Unless it's xmas or their birthday, I pretty much make them earn everything. I've had strict rules on how to act in public, etc since they could walk so they really never give me any problems when we're out. I've always pointed out that just because they see other kids do things doesn't mean it's ok for them to act that way. In the house I also have strict rules, mostly to preserve my sanity. Rules like no running, no yelling, no toys outside of their room, clean up after themselves, etc. Since I'm a single parent and was quite overwhelmed at first, I made up alot of routines my kids follow. I find that the repetition and doing most things in a strict order makes things run alot smoother. Like in the mornings getting ready for school from the time they wake up to going out to the bus stop it's the same exact routine every day. Same routine when they get home, same before bedtime. My kids don't watch tv and I think that's helped their behavior also. I also keep sugar and candy down to a minimum and they seem to be fine with apples, banannas, etc for treats most of the time. I notice particulary with my son that alot of sugar leads to him getting out of hand. I don't think I would have made it through the past 3 years if my kids acted like I see alot of kids do so I feel grateful quite alot.

-- Dave (something@something.com), November 10, 2001.

Sounds like you are doing a good job, Dave. Glad to see you posting. Being grateful is a "good thing"!!!! I am so happy to be a mother, and I want to enjoy every second of my children's lives. Good sound discipline makes this easier in the long run.

-- Melissa (me@home.net), November 10, 2001.

Thanks Melissa. I agree with 'the long run'. Alot of what I try to teach my kids isn't for the present time but to help them in the future. Also, it's not just for them but for me too. I've seen some kids totally overrun their parents and the house they live in. I seriously think I would have had a nervous breakdown if I let things get like that. I don't get frustrated and give in. I see parents do that and all that teaches the child is that if they act up enough mom or dad will give in and give them what they want.

-- Dave (something@somewhere.com), November 10, 2001.

I'm not sure how old your children are but how about reading to them on the bus? Let the kids take turns (maybe the night before) picking out the book they want to read on the bus the next day. If they are old enough to read, let them each bring their own book or they can bring one book and each read a page. Make it something they will enjoy doing. You could even say if they read a book (or listen to the story quietly) each day on the bus ride home, at the end of the week they will get a small treat. Make a little chart to keep a log of how many books they have read. Let THEM put a sticker on the chart when they get home etc.

Also I would make it a point to praise them for their good behavior whenever and wherever you happen to be. Another thing kids like is to feel that they are really special to you. I have often seen children misbehaving in stores etc. and I am quick to point them out to my son (who is now 7) and say to him, "I sure am glad you don't behave like that when we go places." Or I might say, "Thank you for being such a good boy, it makes Mommy proud to take you out with me." You know, something along those lines. Before you know it they will be going out of their way to make you notice their GOOD behavior. I also make it a point to say nice things about my children to others when my children are within earshot. They really feel good when they hear me telling Grandma on the phone how good they were today or how proud I am of them etc. They LOVE to hear you tell other people good things about them.

The snack is probably a big plus as well. When little folks (and big folks too) are hungry, you get all sorts of ill-temperaments to deal with.

Talk to them about their day. Ask them to tell you what the BEST thing about their day was. Or what they liked the best today etc. Tell them how much you missed them while you were apart today and how glad you are that your all together again now.

I think the main thing is to just keep them busy for the ride home. Keep their minds occupied and on positive things and they won't have time to think about getting into mischief.

Good Luck - Let us know how things work out.

Blessings,

-- Grenthumbelina (sck8107@aol.com), November 10, 2001.

I've always believed that spanking should be reserved for defiant behavior. If your kids are not defiant the you don't have a problem, but SOME kids...!!!!!! Spanking should be done in private not only for your family's protection, but because of the humiliation to the child. If they are going to be spanked, they at least deserve to have it done privately. I have asked at the grocery stores if they had a "time out" room where I could discipline my children. So far, all the stores have offered me the employee break room. One clerk offered to get me the official store spanking stick. (none of my kids misbehaved in that store again)

When we go shopping, it is a long marathon day with kids. I am not in so much of a hurry that I forget to respect my kids. We take refreshment breaks and look at things they want to see. I try to remember to reward good behavior. When they were little, it was riding the "quarter" horse in front of the store and yes, I would have to buckle a screaming, thrashing munchkin into their carseat because they were not going to get to ride the horse. Often times, the kid sat in the carseat and the rest of us took a break outside the car. Just because a kid is screaming does not mean I have to listen!

So many of the new parenting theories and methods seem to be nothing more than psychological and emotional abuse. I read through some of these methods with my kids and asked their opinions on preferred discipline. Their answers? "Just spank me and get it over with, Mom."

Oh, and you know those kids that are screaming their heads off in the stores and get louder when their mom tries to quiet them? (she will give in) I walk up to them and say, "Hey kid, look around, nobody else is acting that way." They always stop. These kids need to see that there is a world out there beyond their noses.

I don't know if my methods are the best ones or if they would work for other families. It works for us and I can take all my kids anywhere and expect them to be themselves and behave.

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@hotmail.com), November 11, 2001.

I believe in spanking as long as it is spanking. Mainly I strive for the punishment to fit the crime. Don't forget to hug them frequently and tell them that they are special and that no matter what that YOU love them. I think that this helps them in the long run to realize that you was trying to do what was best for them and you were not just being mean.

-- Tom (Calfarm@msn.com), November 11, 2001.

This is a good forum. I check it now before Countryside. I very seldom ever spanked my children. Even if I did, it was just little swats to get their attention. I have never hesitated to tell them when I think they are acting inappropriately, even in front of their friends. It only takes once in front of friends. Also, my kids have always tried to avoid my being upset with them. The look also works wonders for me. I have homeschooled all of them. They are now:23, 19, 16, 14, and 13. I'll sound like a "bragging mom", but they are very good kids. Raise them like you want from the beginning, and you will have very few problems when they get older. Winona

-- Winona in MO (thompsonwin45@hotmail.com), November 12, 2001.

Hi Winona, bragging is certainly encouraged here! I love to hear all th good things that young people are doing, not just the bad things! so to everyone if your child does something you think is great, first let them know, then let us know!!!!

-- Melissa (me@home.net), November 12, 2001.

Mindy:

Your ride home sounds like a nightmare. The kids are just being their age and cannot sit that long(as you have guessed) at the end of a tiring day. Plus--I am sure you are tired.

Can you find child care closer to home? Can you move closer to child care? If not, and this is the only way you can do it, here are my suggestions.

Every couple days pack a different backpack with toys and paper and crayons. Yard sales and thrift sales are great for these. I picked up millions (litterally) of cassette tapes with kid's songs and stories on them. Churches also have alot left over from vacation bible school and would be willing to donate (esp. if you explain your situation). Get some really cheap cassette recorders with headsets and let the kids listen to different tapes and songs.

Don't bring things to draw EVERY day--just sometimes. You can say, "We will open the "magic bag" after the first 20-30 minutes and we'll extend the time five minutes for every time you misbehave (this only works for kids preschool and older). The key is to change the contents of the bag.

Bring cards sometimes--even very small children can learn to play WAR and it is a great way to teach numbers. How about a chapter book that they would enjoy hearing a few pages of each day when you get to a certain landmark. It makes it fun for the kids to look for the landmark too. Play the alphabet game (looking for each letter of the alphabet in order on different signs). Play the rhyming game. etc,.etc.,

As to spanking--I won't say I don't believe in it, because I have spanked young children for doing UNSAFE things like running into traffic or putting things in electrical sockets--and it did work, they didn't do that again.

You are in a poor situation there on that bus to spank--or even to threaten spanking. Why? Because its unreasonable to expect tired kids on a long bus ride to act like an adult.

It's also a bad idea to spank when you are mad--which you certainly would understandably be after a long day at work riding on a bus with cranky children. I grew up in an abusive home (beyond spanking) and I still have nightmares about it. Spanking leads to more when you are angry.

Starting when my kids were small and I was beginning to lose my cool, I started a habit of praying with my small children while holding hands. Often, we were holding one another so I doubt anyone knew what we were doing. It calmed all of us down so we could feel better and deal with things. My kids are older now, but they have a tool they use daily when frustrated or scared.

I am thinking of you because I know you are in a hard situation.

-- Ann Markson (tngreenacres@hotmail.com), November 12, 2001.

Thank You every one for your responses. Actually in the past week I have tried a couple of your ideas and they have helped tremendously.

-- mindy (speciallady@countrylife.net), November 14, 2001.