Investigators find signs birds may have caused crash of Flight 587 Foreign debris found inside engines By Scott McCartney THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

Nov. 13 — Investigators examining one of the separated engines from American Airlines Flight 587 found foreign debris inside, indicating that the engine may have ingested a flock of birds and then caught on fire.

THE ENGINE BURNED internally, people close to the investigation said. But its parts appeared intact, except for the damage from what is known in aviation as “foreign object debris,” or “FOD.” That would suggest that the engine didn’t suffer a catastrophic failure from some mechanical breakdown, but from sucking in birds, these people said.

Bird strikes aren’t uncommon, especially at seaside airports like New York’s Kennedy International Airport. Airports, including Kennedy, have programs trying to keep birds clear of runway areas. But typically even if ingesting birds causes an engine to fail, a twin-engine plane like the A300 can fly on its remaining engine. In simulators, pilots repeatedly practice the tricky maneuvers to keep planes under control when they lose an engine at takeoff, the most critical time for an engine failure. CHAIN OF EVENTS

In this case, people close to the investigation see the finding of foreign debris in the engine as the start of a chain of events. Most likely, the burning, damaged engine somehow caused damage to other parts of the plane. Because debris has been found at various locations in Queens, it’s clear that pieces of the plane came apart in flight. Another possibility, these people suggested, is that both engines possibly suffered bird strikes.

Witnesses reported seeing the plane’s left engine on fire, then fall off the plane. The wing appeared to be on fire as well, witnesses said, most likely because of ruptured fuel lines or fuel tanks. Engines are designed to shear off a plane if forces on them become great so that they break away before tearing the wing off. But an engine breaking away can itself damage a plane if pieces hit the fuselage, wing or tail.

The National Transportation Safety Board says the cockpit voice recorder recovered from the wreckage shows that the pilots encountered an aviation-related problem, and not some act of terrorism. The NTSB has yet to say what problem the pilots were talking about, however.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

Answers

The National Transportation Safety Board says the cockpit voice recorder recovered from the wreckage shows that the pilots encountered an aviation-related problem, and not some act of terrorism. The NTSB has yet to say what problem the pilots were talking about, however.

aviary-problem? "DAMN THOSE F(%*^&ING BIRDS!!!!!"

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

I'll believe this explaination if they can explain what would've caused the explosion.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

BBC Safety fears over crash jet's engine The pilot's nosedive averted a worse disaster

US aviation officials issued a safety notice a month ago for the type of engine that powered the passenger jet which crashed in New York on Monday, killing more than 260 people on board.

The Federal Aviation Authority called for more frequent inspections because it said an "unsafe condition" had been identified in the engine, but the order had not yet come into force, it has emerged.

Preliminary results of the investigation into the disaster involving American Airlines flight 587 indicate that it was caused by mechanical failure, not a terrorist attack.

The plane was bound for the Dominican Republic when it lost an engine and nosedived into the Rockaway Beach residential area of the borough of Queens four minutes after taking off from John F Kennedy airport at 0913 local time (1413 GMT).

The crash has shocked New Yorkers, who are still trying to recover from the 11 September attacks, when two commercial airplanes were crashed into the World Trade Center in suicide hijackings, killing more than 4,300 people.

New York's grief

About 500 dazed, grieving relatives of the crash victims gathered at the Ramada Plaza Hotel at the edge of JFK Airport.

"Today is worse than the 11th," the manager of an airport cafe, Leonidas Araujo Quesada, told AP news agency.

"On the 11th, there were people crying, but it was for everybody. Today it is for Dominicans," he said.

About 150 of the passengers on the plane were Dominican citizens. The country's president has expressed his deep sorrow and announced three days of national mourning.

There were similar scenes of grief in Santo Domingo's airport when relatives of passengers there heard the news.

The General Electric CF6-80C2 engine that powered the plane has been under close scrutiny since the spring of 2000, when failures in it were reported.

Last month's FAA warning called for tougher, mandatory inspections of possibly worn parts of the engine.

The US National Transportation Safety Board had also warned that failure of these engines during flight could send hot metal fragments tearing through important control systems or fuel lines, and could cause a plane to crash.

The American Airlines plane had gone through routine maintenance tests overnight on Sunday, and investigators were checking who had access to it during those hours.

According to US law, the FAA must give a 60-day period for public and industry feedback before ordering more extensive and frequent inspections.

The 60-day period set by the FAA was to end on 4 December.

The engine is used on more than 1,000 aircraft worldwide, including the plane of the US president, Air Force One.

General Electric says it believes the engine is "phenomenally reliable."

Investigation

Officials said the cockpit voice recordings, which yielded good quality data, indicated that the co-pilot had been at the controls. The search is continuing for the companion flight data recorder.

"It is absent of any extraneous noises or acts that we would not associate with a normal aviation environment," NTSB investigator George Black said of the recording in an interview on CBS television.

But he added later on NBC that the evidence did not rule out sabotage altogether.

Emergency workers in New York have so far recovered 262 bodies from where the suburban residential area where the jet crashed. Up to nine people are still missing on the ground.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

It's possible. Birds. . . faulty GE engines.

I'm going to take a break and go do some paying work. Perhaps there will be more by tonight.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

More paying work or more break? LOL

I have to get ready for work too. btw, it's raining just now. A little shower, but I may be able to see if the roof leaks after all that work was done thru it for the electric.

See y'all in the morning. I'll be around till about 3 Pm eastern.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

Mind you, I'm not happy for it to be birds. The refuge is pretty important wildlife habitat. Can't be good for the refuge.

Redeye posted on TB something I think he picked up from Freepers? about the potential for these engines to explode if certain things went wrong. If so, an explosion could reflect mechanical failure.

There is still a question of why the plane, as I understand it, had such difficulty achieving altitude. I gather that was a problem from the time it took off. It would certainly increase the potential to intercept the birds hanging around the refuge.

So, even if birds are involved, I think it is only one problem the plane was facing.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

And, with everything seemingly ablaze, I wasn't expecting there to be any recognizable remains to incriminate tweety. I thought everything like that would have been pretty well incinerated.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

One last point, if TPTB want a cover up, I think birds will be part (but just part) of that cover.

(OTOH, if TPTB eventually would like to pin this on someone, they better not make too good a case at this time for accidental causes.)

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

Just realized!

I think we have narrowed it down to Foul Play or Fowl Play!

HA!

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

November 13, 2001

Flocks of birds are capable of bringing down big planes

By August Gribbin THE WASHINGTON TIMES

There was early speculation that a collision with birds caused yesterday's crash of American Airlines Flight 587. If so, it would be the worst such accident in aviation history. The Airbus A300 took off from New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport and broke into flames shortly after becoming airborne. An engine fell off the jet before the plane crashed into a group of homes in the Rockaway area of Queens not far from Jamaica Bay. All 260 on board apparently died in the tragedy. The number of casualties on the ground was still being calculated late yesterday. "It's entirely possible that striking birds can bring down a jetliner," said Richard Dolbeer, a Department of Agriculture research biologist. Mr. Dolbeer chairs the Bird Strike Committee-USA, which tracks bird strike incidents and helps find ways to avoid them. The group is composed of representatives from the U.S. Departments of Agriculture and Defense, the Federal Aviation Administration and the aviation industry. In fact, birds have demolished large aircraft, Mr. Dolbeer points out. A survey of press accounts reveals that the worst single accident occurred in 1995, when an Air Force AWACS plane flying out of Elmendorf Air Force Base in Alaska struck four Canada geese. The plane crashed, killing 24 persons. Statistics compiled by Mr. Dolbeer's committee show that a 10-pound Canada goose ramming a plane that's taking off or landing at 150 miles per hour exerts a force equal to 1,000 pounds dropped from the height of 10 feet. No jet engine made can withstand such impact, Mr. Dolbeer says. Some 33,000 bird-aircraft hits were reported between 1990 and 2000. According to the committee, however, 80 percent of bird strikes go unreported. Last year the Air Force reported that its planes had 3,100 bird strikes. U.S. civilian planes had 5,800 reported strikes in the same period. Among the serious bird-plane encounters this year was one at Oregon's Portland International Airport in January. A herring gull flew into a McDonald-Douglas MD-11 jet's No. 3 engine as the craft was taking off. The engine cowling blew away and the engine shredded. The pilot aborted the takeoff, blowing two tires, but the 217 passengers were uninjured. At Detroit Metropolitan Airport in April several snow geese struck the left engine of a Boeing 757-200 as the plane was climbing from liftoff. The engine caught fire and smoke entered the cabin, but the crew landed the plane safely. In June an Airbus A300 landing at Newark International hit as many as 10 geese but landed safely despite the damage. Likewise in June, a Canada goose swept into the No. 2 engine of another Airbus A300 shortly after the plane took off. The engine was demolished. That plane also landed without further incident. Airbus 300s are reportedly the most numerous mid-size airliners, which may explain why more A300s seem to be involved in bird-strike incidents than other kinds of aircraft. "Bird strikes occur at virtually every major airport — especially at coastal airports and especially at this time of year, when the bird population is greatest," said Mr. Dolbeer. He explained that in the summer the birds breed, bringing their population to a peak in September, October and November. After winter sets in, many of the older and less-resilient birds die, diminishing flocks.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

Fowl play! You're a card, Brooks.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

NTSB - No bird strike.

Well, guess that wasn't a bird in hand.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

TB had this to report...

FOX News, TV - At the NTSB press conference, they just stated that both engines appear to be intact and that there are no signs of engine failure, according to George Black, NTSB Boardmember.

Well, if it wasn't an engine failure and the birds were on their best behavior, aren't we back to Foul Play?

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

Found this on FOX... http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,38636,00.html

Rattling Noise Heard in Cockpit Seconds Before Crash; Second Black Box Found

Tuesday, November 13, 2001

NEW YORK — Less than two minutes into its takeoff, rattling noises were heard in the cockpit of American Flight 587, and the pilots began losing control of the plane within 20 seconds, investigators reported Tuesday, citing one of the jet's black boxes.

The details of the final conversations in the cockpit of Flight 587 were released at a news conference by George Black Jr. of the National Transportation Safety Board.

From takeoff to the end of the tape lasts less than 2 minutes, 24 seconds, according to Black.

The first portion of the flight to the Dominican Republic appeared normal, with the co-pilot at the controls. But 107 seconds into the flight, a rattling noise was heard; 14 seconds later, a second rattle was audible, Black said.

Twenty-three seconds later, the cockpit voice recording ends, he said.

[snip]

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

Sounds like someone forgot to tighten some bolts.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

How conveeeeenient! Wonder if this was a typical screw-up or an intentional one. How can we tell the difference...

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

Another one from TB...:

Former NTSB Official Doubts Accident Caused Flight 587 Crash

Aviation expert and former National Transportation Safety Board official Vernon Grose said late Monday that he's increasingly skeptical that the crash of American Airlines Flight 587 was purely accidental.

"I am backing away from the ready idea that this is simply an accident," Grose told Fox News Channel's John Scott. The veteran air crash prober said that he questions the sequence in which the plane broke up over Jamaica Bay before slamming into a residential area in Rockaway, Queens.

"Photographs you've already shown tonight [indicate] the vertical stabilizer of the aircraft with the American Airlines insignia right on it [fell into] Jamaica Bay long before the engine falls off in Queens," he told Scott. Grose said that if the vertical stabilizer detached from Fight 587 over Jamaica Bay, which the plane traversed before plummeting to the ground in Rockaway, it suggested that catastrophic engine failure alone may not have caused the crash.

"No, I don't think that's the situation at all, "he told FNC.

"The engine that came free, which apparently was the number 1 left engine, crashed on land. That was well after the vertical stabilizer was detached from the aircraft, and that tells me that somehow ... the airplane was progressively disintegrating, not just losing an engine and then diving into the ground."

"Earlier today I thought it was simply the loss of an engine that caused this," Grose said. "But I'm not convinced now. ... I am becoming more skeptical."

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

It may not be engine trouble, it could have been another part of the plane, such as the cargo door, being ripped off. If that managed to sever the tail...

Will be interesting to see if they find any other parts near the tail's location, or at least away from the final impact site.

-- Anonymous, November 13, 2001

The theory posited last night on one of the news channels, MSNBC maybe, is that the tail fin came off and the resulting vibration caused the engines to fall off. I forget why he thought the tail fin might have come off. It's getting very confusing with all these experts speculating and hypothesizing--and that's all it is, no matter how experienced and educated they are, speculating and hypothesizing. Be a hell of a thing if the tail fin had been messed about with.

-- Anonymous, November 14, 2001