Catholic vs. Christian?

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In another thread (Is the Bible self-contradictory?), George Lamb raises the question of the advantages/disadvantages of being Christian vs. a specific Christian faith. He said, “...Still that is only my preference based on my belief that becoming a Christian is the most important thing rather than becoming a Catholic, Anglican, Baptist etc.” I believe as Catholics, we disagree with this statement. If we do disagree, then I believe we owe George an explanation as to why we feel the way we do about this issue. It might also be informative for all who visit the forum if we address this question from a Catholic perspective. We have said many times before that to be Catholic (and not Christian) is to be in possession of all (not some) of the tools necessary for salvation. While being Catholic does not guarantee salvation, Catholics believe they have a distinct advantage over fellow Christians.

My question then to the forum (Catholics and Non-Catholics alike) is this: Is there an advantage in being Catholic as opposed to being Christian in our pursuit of eternal salvation, and if there is, what are those advantages?

Peace!

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), November 14, 2001

Answers



-- _ (_@_._), November 14, 2001.

Dear Ed, This is my personal belief and why I believe that for me, the only answer is the Catholic Church. I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He came to earth to give us the "Good News" and to start His Church before He died for our sins and redeemed us, then He returned to heaven. In founding His church, He gave authority to Peter to carry on His work. I believe that Peter had the authority to deem how that succession was carried on after his death. In other words, Peter was the representative of Jesus here on earth and his successors had the same authority. If I compare the Catholic church to the Christian churches I find one glaring difference in their foundation. The Catholic church was founded by Jesus (God) and the Christian churches were ALL founded by a man. You don't need a bible to get this info--just check in any encyclopedia. For example, the Anglican church was founded by Henry the VIII because he couldn't get his own way in obtaining a divorce. He never professed to having divine authority conferred on him by God- -he just basically said that he didn't like the rules of the Catholic church so he would form his own where he could get his own way. Now, given my choice of whom to follow, Henry VIII (or others like him) or Jesus (God), my choice is Jesus. I'm not saying that there aren't good people in other Christian religions, I'm just saying that it is only logical and rational for me to follow Jesus (God) and not a man. I don't want to get into a war of words or quotes from the bible because I think you just lose a lot of people in the process. The pertinent words in this situation are in both versiions of the bible--ours and the King James version--'you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my church' and if you are to believe the words of Jesus, it's quite clear that He gave the authority of the church to Peter. I do understand that the many translations of the bible have left some wondering how each translators own personal ideas are reflected, but in this case, Matthew seems to be pretty well intact no matter which version you read. I have never found anywhere where Jesus gave authority over His church to anyone except St. Peter--not to Henry VIII or Martin Luther or Sylvia Browne or anybody else. So for me the question isn't why follow the Catholic church but why not, when all the proof is there right in front of your face or in the case of other Christians, right in your own King James bible? Ellen

-- Ellen K. Hornby (dkh@canada.com), November 14, 2001.

In your responses to this discussion, you may want to address how and why you believe that the Catholic Church is different than/superior to the Orthodox Church which shares 1,000 years of the same apostolic foundation and beliefs as the Roman Catholic Church.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), November 14, 2001.


Jmj

I have to assume, David B, that you and Ellen posted almost simultaneously. Her post was centered on the primacy of Peter and his sucessors, the men we now call popes.

The bishoprics (sees or [arch]dioceses) that we now call the Eastern Orthodox churches formerly recognized the primacy of the popes (bishops of Rome), but chose to stop doing so, making a formal break (schism) in the mid-11th century. They have retained all seven valid Sacraments, the divine liturgy (Mass), and almost all Catholic doctrine. The Orthodox are our closest separated brethren. I'm sure that the pope and Catholic bishops consider the Orthodox dioceses to be equal in dignity to their own (not inferior). A few of the Orthodox dioceses are the most ancient Christian sees in the world.

I am one of hundreds of millions of Catholics who long for the reunification of Catholicism with Eastern Orthodoxy. The first step was taken by Pope Paul VI and Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras, around 1970, with the lifting of mutual excommunications. Subsequent steps have been slow and difficult, but we will never give up. Obviously, full reunion can only occur when the primacy of the pope is recognized again and when a certain few theological errors are removed from Eastern Orthodoxy. These things, in my opinion, are unlikely to occur in our lifetime. However, I said the same thing about the Berlin Wall coming down.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 14, 2001.


Hi, Ed.

Ed, As we read the Scriptures, it is very clear that Jesus intended to found only ONE Church. And He wanted it to be united. Jesus promised that He would be with His Church forever. Jesus selected the Apostles, with Peter as their head, prepared them and sent them out to spread the Good News to all the World.

The Acts of the Apostles describes how much effort Paul and Peter spent in keeping the Church united.

We Catholics believe history shows clearly that our Church, is the Church that Jesus founded. Ed, Most Mainline Protestant Churches, were formed only 500 years ago, around the time of the Reformation. Most of the fundamentalist sects started up during the past 100 years.

Ed, Protestant Churches, and some fundamentalist sects, only have a few pieces of the "pie". They believe in Jesus, the Bible as the word of God, preaching felloeship and moral living. But Ed, Catholics have the, "whole pie". Plus we have the great Holy Blessings of the Eucharist,or the Mass, which is what FORMER Catholics miss the most.

Ed, We also have the Sacraments of the Church, mentioned in the Bible and insituted by Jesus. We have important slices of the pie, which we call the Magisterium, the Holy Father and the Bisops who are succesors to Peter and the Apostles. KNOW that Christian revalation is INCOMPLETE unless their is a place for The Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of Jesus, who is mentioned at all of the important moments in the life of her Son. We also have the "slice" which we call Tradition, the distilling of the riches of the over 2000-year-old heritage of the Holy Catholic Church.

So Ed, By being part of the universal Catholic Church we have the "whole pie", and not just a, "slice of it "

God Bless you.

David S

-- David S (asdzxc8176@aol.com), November 14, 2001.



Great answer, David S!
Since you covered all the things that occurred to me right away, I stopped for a moment to think about what I could add. The first thing that occurred to me is the subject to which I have been devoting a lot of time here in the last couple of months: the saints -- and more broadly, the Communion of Saints!

Within Catholicism, we have a great tradition of commemorating the lives and love (for God and man) of thousands of people of heroic virtue, the closest friends of God, the saints who are in heaven. They are our role models, our patrons, our elder brothers and sisters in the faith, the Church Triumphant. They pray for us constantly. Yet, outside Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, very few Christians have any belief or understanding of these things.
But at the same time we Catholics do not forget another segment of the Communion of Saints, the suffering souls in Purgatory, for whom we have the privilege of praying and making sacrifices -- and who in turn pray for us. Yet, outside Catholicism (and some in Eastern Orthodoxy), almost no Christians have any belief or understanding of these things.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 15, 2001.


Do any of us suppose a protestant, a born again Christian, be it Adventist, Baptist, Methodist, Christian Science follower: Did these receive forgiveness of their sins in the sacrament of Reconciliation at some time? Or are they exempt from this provision of Our Lord?

Oh! Yes!!!

They can all absolve themselves of sin, in the privacy of their own bedroom. Forget Jesus. He has to accept them this way! Very convenient for Alex Jr!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 15, 2001.


ED,

For a non-catholic and non- christian point of view,I would suggest that there is disadvantage in both. While both catholics and christians alike tend to believe in the same God, they both will fight and argue over issues about each other.If you believe in the same God then how can you have confusion? Now , if you look at a jew and a messianic jew there is only one difference (one believes that the messiah never came and one does) Satan loves confusion, thereby, thats how he decieves people.I was a once lost sheep in the teachings of what others wanted to teach me, being baptist first as a child, then a non-denominational bible church next ,then, I totally left religeon for a while then was persuaded to the catholic church by a friend at the time ,and I later realized that "hey" no one gets me to heaven but my own actions/beliefs in what I do in life. So, I then decided to read the bible myself ,instead of having others preach it to me. Jesus NEVER said "lets pray for someone to get them eternal life" It is there own actions/beliefs that will get them there and only sometimes by the help of others If, a person needs help...But if you need help, ask for it, God will hear you....but if you arent asking honestly and with sincerity he will not answer....but seek the truth and you will find it. I am with out a doubt NOT a bible scholar, but I have read the bible on my own without a church telling me what this and that meant, and when I tried to find a church that fit what the bible teaches there was one and only one that fit all the pieces together without leaving a shadow of a doubt in my mind. Which has finally led me to religious peace and love for God and an enthusiastic joy in bible prohpecy and waiting for the return of the messiah. To get to your question(sorry I got a bit wordy) but, arent you really asking, "Is there an advantage /disadvantage in what others think you should do/be to get eternal life? I would definately say a big Disadvantage. Read the bible in its whole, it will teach you what questions you need to know....some say you can throw out the Old testament, but if you read the first part of genesis you will find the messiah there(he is the tree of life)...with the new testament alone, how can you find God? where was creation? where is the prophecy that is talked about that was fullfilled in the new? where is the prophecy that hasnt been fullfilled in the old testament?....so, simply read and learn it all,and go over it many times, sometimes it will not come to you and othertimes it will.I would purpose one thing to you and ALL THAT READ THIS LETTER, simply visit this website.

http://www.yeshuatheking.org

To those here that are bible scholars, go to this website and get involved in the disscussion forums....I cant find even one thing that a messianic jew cant find in the words of God(bible-old and new alike) ,and get rid of this terrible confusion that Satan has put in this world....forget about a verse hear or a verse there that can be twisted and manipulated(funny word isnt it...MAN ipulated)or mistranscribed from language to language and a religeon or two or three etc., of the world believes in. Find the religeon of truths, the belief in one and only one God and his comandments that werent MANipulated.....So, I bid you farewell catholics/christians/ and whatever others are reading, test my faith, get a close look at a messianic jew....looking for answers to your questions? "knock knock" the door is here to walk through, but time isnt...hmmm, I cant leave without one bible quote...."he that leadeth into captivity, will go into captivity, he that killeth by the sword will die by the sword." Now thats wisdom!....but what does it mean? Does it take a brain surgeon? Oh, the parables of the Lord! Arent they great!, yet so simple.......If one leads one to hell, surely they go there????

May the Lord thy God be with you all, may you find his simple truth. The house of Israel is scattered, are you not a sheep lost? Who is the lamb? Come, his door is open. For we have seeked the truth ,and as prophesized, we are here..."come out of her my people" the Lord thy God has spoken, it is time.

your in my thoughts, Mark

-- mark (ukerne1@yahoo.com), November 16, 2001.


Mark,

Do you believe that an orthodox Jew and a reform Jew don't have any areas of disagreement? At all? What are you trying to say here?

This is the same scenario (Catholics & Protestants) only we have an advantage, in that for a Catholic Christ's church has an authoritative head, who can state for ALL the faithful what the truth is, and speak it infallibly! The same can not be said of current day Jews, unfortunately.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 17, 2001.


I don't know why Mark and so many others have it that reading the Bible is the only neccesary avenue to being with God and correct in your beliefs. The Holy Bible has nothing within its pages that states you ought only to read the Bible. In fact, Jesus the Messiah had nothing at all to say about searching the Scriptures. The ones that DID say this were His own opponents. Jesus often quoted from the Holy Scriptures. But by and large, His main teachings didn't promote Bible reading. In His holy Sermon on the Mount, Jesus never said, ''Blessed are the Bible readers, for they will never be asked for more than this.'' He cured ten lepers; and in so doing His command was, ''Go, show yourselves to the priests.'' --Maybe He was behind the times, Mark. Having subsequently founded the Church Himself, it stands to reason He would say today: ''Go show yourselves to the Catholic priests,'' as a proper avenue for His own salvific work,--the Holy Sacraments. As much as we must love and revere the Holy Bible for the Word of God; Jesus didn't equate reading the scriptures with the spiritual life. I will gladly agree with all your arguments for the great advantages offered us by Bible reading. But nobody was ever saved by simply reading the Bible. The devil was fond of quoting scriptures. We must never forget this.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 17, 2001.


to Frank:

I think you must have read too quickly what I had written...you say orthodox jew and reform jew...the truth is a messianic jew does not necessarily have to be either.I was never an orthodox jew so how can I be a reformed jew?...I am simply a messianic jew(grafted in jew). As for your question, I did simply state that they are the same except a messianic jew believes in the messiah, how much plainer do you need it spelled out for you?(not being harsh here) So, as I said the area of disagreement is one believes in the messiah the other doesnt....does this sound familliar? When christ the messiah was on earth was he not a jew just like his apostles? Did he not call the jews that believed not in him the synagogue of satan? Now catholics will say they are the first church, but would they not be jew if they were? Peter, who you like to call the first pope was a jew....then why dont you call yourselves jews? I must clearly state and without any doubt the messianic jew does have an authoritive figure, that being GOD and GOD only, we have NO man above us, that clearly would be placing one before God and breaks the commandment"thou shalt have no other gods before me" You say that the pope is infallible...No man is infallible on earth, we are all with sin , born into it. If peter was the ,as you say first pope and being infallible, then how could he walk with christ the messiah?..and After the catholic so called time where he was made the first pope..."upon this rock I will build my church" in Mathew...He later proceeds to deny christ 3 times...simply showing his sin or Fallibility as a man, therefore no MAN is infallible and the pope is no more righteous than any other righteous man on earth. You must simply learn more about being a jew before you can say statements like "we dont have an authorative figure" We will put God as our authoritive figure before any MAN, and we love and fear him enough to place our eternal life in his hands rather than a MANS(pope).You have your traditions that through time you believe to be of some merrit....We have the covenant that God gave to us, preceeding far and far before Peter, that covenant from Abraham. Christ himself said he was the root and offspring of David the king of the jews, thus meaning,the begining and the end(youve heard it many times"the alpha and the omega")his chosen people, the lineage of the jews is his people and are the ones that believe in him (not orthodox jew/non messiah believer). My heart cries out to you, I hope that you can see this....all gentiles can be grafted in jews (messianic jews).

your in my thoughts,

Mark

-- mark (ukerne1@yahoo.com), November 17, 2001.


Dear Mark,
I guess no one has ever explained the meaning of infallibility to you. I'm not surprised, since your acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah has come about without the Holy Gospel.

The Church has Jesus for her founder; and Jesus is the One who appointed Peter as the Rock, her foundation. Peter of himself is really only an Apostle; which means someone who is sent. Sent to announce the Gospel, the Good News. But as the Rock, or Pope, Peter has an assigned task, which is to clarify what is unclear to the followers of Jesus. Jesus' words are: ''I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven (My authority), and what you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (this is Jesus' authority, passed on to the Pope). Peter didn't have this authority until the Son of God gave it to him. It matters not that Peter was a sinner. Infallibility as the doctrine teaches is not ''perfection''-- Why would Peter have to be equal to Christ in order to be infallible?

Infallible in the proper sense only means Peter will never err in matters of faith and morals, as the teaching authority. Peter may have indeed sinned, but he never taught the Christian community anything but the truth. The truth as a grace extended to the Church from the action and indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The succeeding Popes through history have varied as to their personal holiness. But due to this same grace, and the promises of Our Lord (they take no credit for themselves,) they haven't taught the Church any error either. They may be in error on points irrelevant to faith and morals, but where it concerns these two matters, no one can convict any Pope of ever having been fallible in judgment. It is Jesus who has guaranteed it to him. Not men, and not the Church.

Who taught YOU that you could inform yourself completely and infallibly by simply reading the scriptures? Nobody. You decided this for yourself. Even the ancient Israelites depended on the Prophets. They claimed no separate source of knowing God's Will. Are you more fortunate than they were? Simply spoken, the plan of God for our salvation is hierarchical. We are ruled and saved from above. Not by consensus, nor private interpretation of the Word of God. You must accept the authority of the Holy Apostles and their legitimate successors if you will follow Yeshua. It's the way He demanded it.

The Holy Bible as New testament is a work brought to us by them. No word of Jesus reached the modern world that didn't come by way of the Church in the beginning. The original texts of the NT were meticulously produced and copied by hand, by Catholic monks and priests and scholars. The first printing presses didn't exist until the 1500's-- so the Bible you claim is your rule of faith didn't enter the picture until then. How did the faith go 1,500 years without any larger editions of the scriptures? You know the only answer there can be is: by the preaching of the apostles, and those ordained in unbroken succession after them. The Catholic Church, still working for Jesus until the present.
All praise to Our Divine Saviour, All glory and Honor! Let all Creation, not just Jew and Christian adore Him. Amen!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 17, 2001.


Eugene:

Wow, how can you say that? Christ quoted the scriptures many times to PROVE to the jews who he was through the prophecy of the old testament.And yes he sent them to the priest of the synagogues to do what?....prove who he was so they would know, yet many of them did not believe, thats how you have the modern day"orthodox jew" they never believed him to be the messiah.Why would he send them there if they believed he was the messiah, there would be no gain in that action to prove who he was.The scriptures are very important, one part of MANY reasons is,its a tool to test who people are.If you want to throw scripture to the side and weigh heavilly on tradition of man, then tarry on your way.God spoke many times(directly) in the old testament to the jews....did he speak to the catholics? NO...The christians? NO...The gentiles?...No. The scriptures have the laws of God, and, yes, you dont need them if you obey the laws of God.Traditions of man are made up by man and can be changed and can be found to be false in latter times.For instance, you are told that santa claus will bring you presents on christmas as a kid, then when you're older its found to be false(unless you still believe this, sorry if I spilled the beans.LOL)Therefore by the scriptures we know who we are"the chosen people of God whom he made the covenant with", the ones who keep his commandments and don't make any changes to it.I would assume that you think catholics are the chosen people i.e. Peter, papal sucession etc. This is seriuosly and quite simply a wrong tradition of man....you are not a jew therfore you are not his chosen people therfore you are not from the root and offspring of David and therefore you are not the "catholic wanna be" so called first church, and this is easily found in the scriptures, and thats why we as messianic jews know this, and through the Torah and the TNK we find this and through the prophecies spoken of in the latter days , we know who you are....you may decieve many , but you wont decieve us.

Mark

-- Mark (ukerne1@yahoo.com), November 17, 2001.


Eugene:

Why must you side step the issues? Was Peter a jew? Are catholics jews? you like to go off on these ramblings about who wrote the bible and say it was the catholics, but I never stated that only the NEW testament was important..... the OLD testament is as much if not more important...Do you catholics take responsibility for the creation of the old teastament too? Or, do you say that you can throw the old out?...please answer these questions Eugene!

-- Mark (ukerne1@yahoo.com), November 18, 2001.


Hello, Mark.

Before trying to have a fruitful discussion with a Catholic like Eugene, it would have been good for you to know some basic things about Catholicism. Apparently you did not do your "homework" before coming to this forum. I say this because of your foolish example of Santa Claus as a "tradition," as if that is what we Catholics mean by Sacred Tradition.

In Latin, the verb "tradere" (from which "tradition" comes) literally means "to give across" -- i.e., to give something across the generations, to hand down. Now what is "handed down" can be simply a custom or "tradition of men" or (as is true in the case of Christian Tradition) the spoken word/teaching of God, in Jesus, through his Apostles. Thus you will also hear of Sacred Tradition as Apostolic Tradition. The Revelation of God to mankind comes in the form of two "font" that complement each other and never contradict each other -- the written (books of the Bible) and the oral (Sacred Tradition). Not everything that was handed down orally was written down. The Catholic Church and certain Eastern apostolic churches (Orthodox, etc.) are the only Christian bodies that preserve and revere both fonts of God's revelation. That is one of the reasons that you cannot find the fullness of the truth in any form of Protestantism, including the one in which you have immersed yourself, Mark.

St. Paul himself speaks of this:
2 Thessalonians 2:15 -- So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
1 Corinthians 11: 2 -- I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 19, 2001.



Eugene,

You wrote: Do any of us suppose a protestant, a born again Christian, be it Adventist, Baptist, Methodist, Christian Science follower: Did these receive forgiveness of their sins in the sacrament of Reconciliation at some time? Or are they exempt from this provision of Our Lord? Oh! Yes!!!

They can all absolve themselves of sin, in the privacy of their own bedroom. Forget Jesus. He has to accept them this way! Very convenient for Alex Jr!

My reply:

Eugene, did I miss something here? Did Alex reply here, and it was removed by the moderator? That is the only case that I can think of for you to write such stinging and sarcastic remarks about Protestants.

Eugene, your question about Protestants and the sacrament of Reconciliation is a valid question, and to answer it: no, we all know they do not have this sacrament. They, if they were baptised, did receive forgiveness through their baptism. It seems though that you meant your question not to be a springboard for discussion, but rather a way for you to write sarcastic, generalistic, bashing comments about Protestants.

It makes me very sad when such things are written about Protestants. Why? Because anyone baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, whatever their denomination, is our brother or sister in Christ. In the Creed it says, "We acknowledge one baptism, for the forgiveness of sins". No, Protestants do not have all the sacraments, the fullness of grace, "the whole pie". But by their baptism they are in a certain, but imperfect communion with the Catholic Church. (From section 838 of the Catachism).

So many people come here and bash us Catholics, and yes, we should stand up for ourselves and rebuke that person as need be. But please, let us not for our own part bash our brothers and sisters in Christ by such generalistic and sarcastic remarks.

Thank you.

Carolyn

-- cksunshine (cklrun@hotmail.com), November 19, 2001.


Well, well, well, how ironic that someone comes along Catholic bashing right after my last post. I don't think that this person even wrote this himself, rather copied it from something (jugding by the format, etc).

To the Poster who signed himself "Jesus is the truth": Well let me say this: You sign yourself "Jesus is the truth" and then fill your post with lies. I was told recently at a seminar that evil never shows its true face; it offers a piece of the truth. It tries to convince us it is all of the truth. Satan is the father of lies. Well, you profess Jesus but work for the father of lies. GO AWAY!! We do not tolerate evil here!!

Consider you and the father you work for rebuked.

Carolyn

Dear God, please bless this forum and protect it from evil. May it be a source of discussion and learning and may it bring glory to Your name. In Jesus holy name we pray. Amen.

-- cksunshine (cklrun@hotmail.com), November 20, 2001.


Carolyn,
It's "Rude Alex" Ruiz. He copied the same trash from some e-mail he received and actually started a new thread with it too. Fortunately, the Moderator deleted that thread, but has thus far overlooked his message above.
If Alex had a brain, he'd be dangerous.
JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 20, 2001.

In response to jfgecik:

first of all plaese dont tell me to do my homework here,I have stated that I am NO bible scholar, but dont blaspheme me by calling me a protestant.....you might try doing your homework on that one....a messianic jew is not a protestant thank you. Also, my discussion here began with ED not eugene nor you, but like a wolf you like to creep up on people who tell the truth to others, but I'm game for it, lets carry on......You quoted 1 corinthians chapter 11 verse 2,ok thats nice out of context....so how about I give you one out of context...try 1 corinthians chapter 11 verse 3: "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is christ;..."very next verse you quoted to me!....A good reason here to Not make holy this man you call pope and exhault him over anyone, dont you think? Lets move on to 2 thessalonians chapter 2 ...who do you think Paul is speaking of in verse 4 here? the pope obviously,as prophesized, you know , the abomination of desolation where the pope(false prophet)exhauts himself above all and makes his seat in the temple.... By the way, Why dont Eugene answer for himself here, I asked him some questions as to if a catholic was a jew....Can you answer this for me since you want to delve into the conversation here?.....Maybe he's busy trying to find the one verse he can take out of context and twist to his benefit, do you think?....how about coming up with verses that are from the Old testament only to prove your points? Would that be so hard? Coming from a church that believes they are the first (catholics) wouldnt it be fitting to find them in the old testament? But wait, you know as do I that its all about the generations of the jews and the covenant that God made with them.But I would assume you will say that christ made a new covenant and thats for the catholics,right? but , you see, here is where you are wrong ...he came NOT to destroy the law but to Fullfill it, and how does he do this?...Love thy God with all thy heart....so, the new covenant is what? LOve God, believe in the messiah and take the holy ghost,...Meaning one God who came to the earth in the form of man and left in the spirit..NO trinity here, not 3 beings, just ONE...you then take of the holy ghost as did peter and the other apostles by believeing in him with all your heart.Here is where you get to the sabbath, the sabbath being the lords day as it was called in the begining...the day of rest(eternal life as we know it)you know, where you dont work no more, feel no pain , and live an honor our lord forever and ever. You see the plan that God laid out before us is as simple as a circle....the story gets told over and over from the very begining to the end,and keeps continuing...there's no reason to MANipulate it and make it out to be more complicated than it is.God Never gave man power to change his laws, you change one you change them all, you manipulate one you manipulate them all.I could go on about alot of things here but since peter is your First pope as you call it. ...After he denied christ the messiah 3 times , Did christ tell him to go confess his sins to a priest? Nope. He wept.Now if thats the catholic thing to do when you sin ,why didnt he?

May God give you the eyes to see!

you're in my thoughts, Mark

-- Mark (ukerne1@yahoo.com), November 21, 2001.


Mark,

Hope you don't mind me butting in, but I can answer this

I asked him some questions as to if a catholic was a jew

for you *easily*! The answer is "NO". At least as I understand it, Jews do NOT believe Jesus Christ is God, Catholics DO believe that. You cannot hold both positions concurrently, no matter how much sophistry you apply.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 21, 2001.


Frank,
You are right, if one speaks simply of being "a Jew." One can't be both "a Christian" and "a Jew" at the same time.

But Mark might quote his earlier statement: "if you look at a jew and a messianic jew there is only one difference (one believes that the messiah never came and one does)." [His intention was to say, "One (the Jew) believes that the Messiah has not yet come, while the other (the Messianic Jew) believes that the Messiah has already come."]

In other words, Mark says that a Jew who comes to believe in Jesus can call himself a "Messianic Jew." I believe that this a term favored by converts to Protestantism.
Some converts from Judaism to Catholicism call themselves "completed Jews."

I could be misunderstanding Mark, as his messages tend to be disjointed and very hard for me to read (especially because my eyes have trouble with huge posts that are not broken into paragraphs) ... but it appears that he is calling himself a "Messianic Jew." This is quite strange, since he introduced himself as having been a Baptist (Protestant) as a boy. Maybe he is only telling us about "Messianic Jews," without actually claiming to be one.

Mark is wrong in saying to me: "a messianic jew is not a protestant thank you." [No doubt he would say that a Baptist or "non-denominational Christian" is not a Protestant either.]
He is mistaken because, in common parlance, there are three groups of Christians: (1) Catholics, (2) Easterns [almost all being Orthodox], and (3) Protestants [who reject (or "protest" against) some of the Catholic doctrines]. By default, Jews who convert to Christianity, but fail to become Catholic or Eastern, are called "Protestants." Mark started out as a Baptist, a member of a Protestant ecclesial community that was founded in the 17th century.

[Mark, I'm sure that Eugene will be back to answer your comments/questions. I am not interested in fighting with you. I just stepped in momentarily to provide you with that information about Sacred Tradition, since you were unfamiliar with it.]

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 21, 2001.


Mark,

Be wary of casting your pearls before swine! Most on here are hard core satan worshipers lying in bed with the whore. They have been seriously seduced. Sadly, Yeshua could beat the door down and they still would not come out of her. Such a sad sad story. Their pride and boasting has gotten the worst of them. They will go searching their books for the answers yet Yeshua shouts in their ear and they still don't hear. Be careful Mark! The wolves will attack you! They'll start by giving you twisted words that they don't know the meaning of and then quickly, after you have breathed the fire on them, attack you personally. You know, like your grammar or your mother etc. When you get their backs to the wall with the word of truth, they just delete your posts! Nice fruit! Kill the truth satan!

The Lord thy God is one!

The truth will prevail!

-- Michael (non-catholic Jewish brother) (mdroe@erinet.com), November 21, 2001.


Michael,

No one is forcing you to read this site or to post here. If you don't like it, why not try leaving?

John,

I hear what you're saying, but it's a lot of effort to keep up with protestants' definitions (they're all different, like their ideas of what being a "Christian" are). I figured I'd try giving a nice, easy *common* definition of why a Catholic can't be a Jew, and then if he feels like he wants to say, "well, by my definition, a Jew is someone who believes that Jesus is God", I could say "o.k., by your definition, Catholics may be Jews, but that wouldn't apply to anyone else's idea of what Jews or Catholics are". A straightforward definition seemed like a better starting point than trying to figure out what his post meant!

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 21, 2001.


Here is a mystery for you satan worshipers.

If Jesus was a Jew and all the apostles were Jews, and thousands of new converts from Judea(feeding the thousands with bread and fish) were Jews.

Where are the messiah believing JEWS today that were decendants from these people?

Just a hint to get you started: They lost their Jewish identity, WHY?

-- Michael (non-catholic Jewish brother) (mdroe@erinet.com), November 21, 2001.


Michael,

Where are the messiah believing JEWS today that were decendants from these people?

Just a hint to get you started: They lost their Jewish identity, WHY?

Again, Michael, EASY question, EASY answer! The people who call themselves Jews today are the descendents of the Jews who REJECTED Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Catholics are the descendents of those Jews who accepted Jesus. Pretty simple, really.

Frank

P.S. "by their actions will you know them". When you call someone a satan worshipper (without provocation, I do make exception for things said and later regretted in a heated debate), you pretty much declare where your heart is.

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 21, 2001.


Frank,

Not such an easy answer. First of all, the Jews today should not be categorized as those who reject the messiah. Yes there are those that do reject him, BUT their are also many that do accept the messiah. Do a search on the web for "Messianic Jew" and you will find many who do believe.

Secondly, catholics are the decendants of "GENTILES" not JEWS. Since catholics are so into tradition, if they were Jews they definitely would keep the traditions of their fathers. Example the sabbath and all the feasts days given to them. You are right, "by their actions you will know them". The catholic "fruits" are not the same as Jewish.

Lastly, this IS a very easy question/answer(mystery) but not if the answer leads one to know the truth about ones false religion.

Need another hint: Who hates Jews? God or man/satan?

Now don't say that catholicism doesn't teach hatred of Jews. Who?, never said a word concerning Hitler slaughtering God's people? Who's gold was found in catholic chuches after WWII?

Wake up! The "times of the "Gentiles" is about up. God's chosen are back in the land and the earth is about ready to shake. The Lord thy God of Israel is one! Choose your side wisely.

-- Michael (non-catholic Jewish brother) (mdroe@erinet.com), November 21, 2001.


Jmj

Hello, Michael.
What a distinct displeasure it has been to read your idiotic posts! I'll be darned if I'll allow an ignoramus like you call us decent people "swine ... satan worshippers ... wolves."
Why did you crawl back out from under your rock, Michael. I recognized your e-mail address right away. You used to come here long ago -- perhaps in the 1998-to-early-2000 time frame. You were a trouble-maker then, if I recall correctly, but you are much worse now. You must have fallen in with an even worse crowd than before. In fact, I don't think that you were pretending to be Jewish back then. Did you flip out for "Jews for Jesus" and convert to Judaism so that you could join them? Whatever the case, you are in really sad shape now. Mark got in trouble, so he called on you for reinforcements?

A few rebuttals to your errors:

(1) Today's Catholics are not just descendants of Gentiles, but also (a) recently converted Jews and (b) descendants of 1st-century Jews. Remember the thousands baptized on the first Pentecost? They went back to their homes, all over the ancient world, and became some of the first Catholic missionaries. Many of their descendants are Catholics or Eastern Orthodox today.

(2) People's posts are deleted here when they are grossly abusive or when they are posted by a banned person. They are not deleted "when [Catholics] get their backs to the wall with the word of truth," because that can never happen. Catholics have the fullness of "the word of truth." We take on all comers -- all shades of error, including yours.

(3) Catholicism does NOT teach hatred of Jews. You would know that if you had the guts/brains to read the Catechism. You would know that if you had watched the pope visiting Israel last year, embracing the old Polish Jewish neighbors/friends of his boyhood, being honored by rabbis and Jewish political leaders, praying at the Western/wailing wall, apologizing for the sins of Catholics against Jews through the years, etc..

(4) You know ZERO about what Pope Pius XII did or did not do during World War II. Many Jews, in Israel and elsewhere, praised him to high heaven for what he did for Jews. He is credited with saving nearly a million of them by his actions and decisions. The Jewish-owned New York Times praised him, as did Golda Meir (who became Israel's prime minister). After the war, the chief rabbi of Rome became a Catholic and took the baptismal name, Eugenio, because that was the Pius XII's name prior to becoming pope. Michael, GROW UP.

God bless you.
John


-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 21, 2001.


John,

Just as I told Mark, they will attack you personally-(ignoramous) Wow,can read you like a book. I wonder how fast you can get my posts deleted and me banned? Sad, sad, sad Time will tell. "swine, satan worshippers, and wolves", yep thats the church of satan. God called me a sinner but I don't have to be one. Am I a "Jew for Jesus"? Nope, just a believer in the real Messiah, the Jewish Messiah. My new crowd hides under the same rock as I do, the rock of truth. Sorry to displease you so much John, but you know why you fear my kind. Catholicism is dependent on the supremacy of Peter being the "first". But woe, when Jews become believers in Messiah the tables are turned. The Jews have supremacy written all over them that no catholic can touch. The gospel was given to the Jew "FIRST". This is why Jews must be exterminated so that Peter doesn't lose his power over the people. Heed my warning the God of the Jews is Messiah(salvation) and his prophets are beginning to wake up, the end is near. The papacy will have no other option but to try and kill them again. Sorry, this time God will not allow it unnoticed. The Gentile days are numbered. God is about to speak to his people again like he wanted to in the days of Moses. When he thunders the earth will shake and Israel's enemy will be annialated! Prophecy is unfolding before are very eyes these days and repentance, the commandments of God and the testimony of salvation are of necesity. The truth hurts, it is a sword of flaming fire.

You are right John, I was here a few years ago and I did need to grow up. I was trying to let my branches grow but didn't water the roots. Those roots are Judaism and that is where all truth and Messiah come from. When the seed is planted in good soil the roots take hold firmly and the branches flourish with the fruit of truth.

Despite what you may think John, I do not hate you. I hate the devil. I hope to meet you in the kingdom of God. I had a few weeks ago a very interesting conversation with a catholic in a live chat room. He asked me if I would give him 30 mins that he could convince me of the faith. After about an hour I had to stop him about explaing Mary and not one mention of Messiah. We continued and I showed him where Messiah was in the garden of Eden and he was baffled. He couldn't believe that God's salvation(messiah) was there asking us to just reach forth our hand and ask. Sometimes the ignorant can discern the mysteries with such simplicity.

The holy one of Israel is the salvation of man.

-- Michael (non-catholic Jewish brother) (mdroe@erinet.com), November 21, 2001.


Frank:

Well you are sort of butting in , but if you want to respond to me, please understand thoroughly as to what I am.....this is for the rest of you too that seem to be confused to what a messianic jew is.

1)First of all I am in NO way a christian/protestant or a catholic 2)I NEVER was an orthodox jew 3)I am a messianic jew-I believe in God ,and that God lived on earth in the form of a man called Yeshua and that Yeshua came to the earth and died a manly death to save us from our sins, so that if we ask forgiveness from him thru the holy ghost we will be granted eternal life, and that we must obey all of Gods laws. I await his 2nd coming with great enthusiasm. How great and almighty is our Lord God!

*I hope this can make it clear to you people.*

Now, you see why you're statement of me holding both concurrently is a wrong judgement on your behalf, for I am Not a christian/protestant /catholic/muslim or what have you.

I in No way proclaim to be a christian and a jew(orthodox) at the same time, that is a ridiculous thought, but yet aren't you catholic and christian at the same time?

John: It seems you want to talk about me and my beliefs, although Not directly, through other responses.I respond to you here in your statement:

***But Mark might quote his earlier statement: "if you look at a jew and a messianic jew there is only one difference (one believes that the messiah never came and one does)." [His intention was to say, "One (the Jew) believes that the Messiah has not yet come, while the other (the Messianic Jew) believes that the Messiah has already come."]***

Now , John , correct me if I am wrong here , but isnt your reply to what I said essentially the same exact thing that I quoted? I guess we are gonna play the "I am a more educated and eloquent writer and the need for correct grammar and proper paragraphing HAS to be done here kind of game?" Woe to them that are dumb , they might not make it to heaven"...is this your stance John? You know I might actually be the fastest 2 fingered typer you ever met! I would hope that you dont have any children that you would raise in this manner.....So, as you like to quote"LETS GROW UP HERE JOHN"

Lets get back to more of your remarks here....you say I dont claim to be a messianic jew, well, HELLO WORLD! I AM A MESSIANIC JEW! Because my parents were baptist and thats what I was preached to about as a kid does NOT make me a baptist. It only forced that belief on me, as like catholics do to their children, right? What a ridiculous statement to say ***"by default I am protestant"*** thats simply a form used by catholics...if this was so then I would be able to say you are a protestant, because you protest against my religeon, isnt this correct?...If you are trying to play the intellectual in this response at least use some intellect. I am sure it would be hard for a pompous ridiculing fool as yourself to do though. Well anyways I do hope that any further correspondance with you will be a bit more tactfull and would be nice if you could use any credability in your statements and just stick to the issues at hand and not side step and judge others. I do hope that God will enter into your heart and enlighten your knowledge of a messianic jew, but in the meantime I must say it has been quite amusing to hear what you people think.

your in my thoughts, Shalom, Mark

MIchael: Wow, you were right. Its nice to see a brother out telling of"the good news" Shalom, Mark

-- Mark (Ukerne1@yahoo.com), November 21, 2001.


Mark, You remind me of Lance. It is something about your typing! If you are not happy, than please leave!

David S

-- David S (asdzxc8176@aol.com), November 22, 2001.


Michael,

You say Christians should act like Jews. That's not what Jesus said, in that he said "you don't put new wine in old wineskins". In fact the Jews of His day reproached him for breaking their laws like working on the Sabbath, etc. Not to mention (most important of all!!) Jesus' command to ***literally*** eat his body that caused some of His followers to leave him, and is definitely wrong for a Jew.

The Catholic church has held consistent postitions (which one would expect when preaching the truth) on this for 2000 years. Each week someone like yourself shows up with their own interpretation of what is true and starts screaming about it. Unfortunately, Michael, all of their interpretations are different. Even if I wanted to believe one of you, whose version of "truth" would you have me believe, yours, last week's, or next week's?

Frank

P.S. I'm sorry Michael, but you can't be both something and it's opposite. Please pick one: Be a Jew, or be a Christian, but don't insult both faiths by claiming to be both.

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 23, 2001.


Frank,

You wrote

"P.S. I'm sorry Michael, but you can't be both something and it's opposite. Please pick one: Be a Jew, or be a Christian, but don't insult both faiths by claiming to be both."

Very interesting. Your first Pope was a Jew and a Christian was he not? Hmm...

I think Paul was a Jew and a Christian?

I wonder if all the disciples and apostles were Jews and Christians??

It is interesting to note that your first pope Peter was trying to Judaize the new converts and would have them circumsized also if James did not teach him otherwise. I wonder what Judaism they did allow to teach the new converts?

-- Michael (non-catholic Jewish brother) (mdroe@erinet.com), November 23, 2001.


Michael,

Sigh. I can't believe that anyone can misunderstand like you do, without deliberately trying to.

Peter et. al. were Jews *culturally*, as that's how they were raised, just like one can be an American culturally and still be a Jew or Catholic. They became Christians *religiously* when they started believing Jesus was the Son of God, and STOPPED following religious Judaism. So for someone raised in a Jewish household, one could be a cultural Jew, but a religious Christian or a cultural Jew and a religious Jew, but NO ONE can be a religious Jew and a religious Christian. How many times does this need to be explained?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 23, 2001.


Frank,

Maybe you'll have to try about a thousand more times. By your thinking if no one can be both then all bible prophecy refering to Judah has been fulfiled. Can you please explain in detail to us ignorant people where when and how the prophecy of Ezekiel concerning the regathering of the tribe of Judah has occured. Explain to us also when this war with Gog happened in history and the earthquake(felt all over the world) that follows and the 7 months of clean up. BTW, replacement theology doesn't work here. Ezekiel's temple does not measure the same as the one in Revelations nor are the tribes named the same. The prophecy also states that Judah will be scattered throughout NATIONS(plural), so this can not be a one nation such as Babylon.

Hey maybe when your done explaining the above, you can let us ignorant people also know why that in Revelations there are 12 tribes mentioned. Can you explain to us why Ephraim and Dan are not there? And why is Levi and Joseph named? It seems odd that when Moses numbers the 12 tribes he does not count Levi as a tribe and counts Joseph as the split tribe of Ephraim and Manaseh as one.

-- Michael (non-catholic Jewish brother) (mdroe@erinet.com), November 24, 2001.


I've seen non-sequiturs, but Michael, your meanderings take the cake.
Frank, your previous message was clear, convincing, and correct -- and should not even have been necessary (which is why you sighed).
JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 24, 2001.

Michael,

If there's one thing I'm sure of in life, it's that if I wait six months you'll be able to come back here saying how Messianic Jews have fufilled battling with Gog and Magog and all the other good stuff you can dream up.

Apply yourself Michael, you can do it!

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 25, 2001.


Going back over this thread, I found the following posts. I had not answered because I was out of town.

''Eugene: Why must you side-step the issues? Was Peter a Jew? Are Catholics Jews? You like to go off on these ramblings about who wrote the bible and say it was the Catholics, but I never stated that only the NEW Testament was important..... the OLD Testament is as much if not more important...Do you Catholics take responsibility for the creation of the Old Testament too? Or, do you say that you can throw the old out? Please answer these questions Eugene! -- Mark (ukerne1@yahoo.com), November 18, 2001. ' --AND >>>

''1)First of all I am in NO way a Christian/protestant or a catholic 2)I NEVER was an orthodox Jew 3)I am a messianic Jew-I believe in God ,and that God lived on earth in the form of a man called Yeshua and that Yeshua came to the earth and died a manly death to save us from our sins, so that if we ask forgiveness from him thru the holy ghost we will be granted eternal life, and that we must obey all of Gods laws. I await his 2nd coming with great enthusiasm. How great and almighty is our Lord God! *I hope this can make it clear to you people.*'' (Also by Mark.)

Good Grief !!!It seems that Mark, much more readable and coherent than poor Michael, thought I'd side-stepped the questions. OK; here's a couple of stabs:

Peter is a JEW. Today as before. Mary and Jesus (properly his name, Latin for Yeshuah) also are Jewish. They all descended in blood from Jewish stock.

What's the problem? They are also in the Catholic Church from the beginning. We accept that. The Holy Gospel was spread mostly by Galileans, Mark. But it isn't a Galilean church. It's Catholic, or Universal.

It was founded by Jesus; but in the New Covenant, or Testament. The Testament He ratified by His own Precious Blood.

The fact He was Israel's Messiah has not been lost on us as Catholics. We celebrate His Messianic identity just as much as you do. He is also as Messiah a Light unto the Gentiles. The Prophets told us He would be so.

The Gentiles (us) are under no obligation to enter Judaism out of our faith in Jesus the Holy One of Israel. Judaism is under the obligation of coming to Him in His Mystical Body, the Church. In order for this to be, the entire nation of Israel will someday convert to Him en masse; it will do that in the fulness of time. You are already a believer; but you are resisting the call to membership in His Body. The Catholic Church, and Baptism.

I'm losing concentration now, because I have errands to run. (My wife is a slave-driver.) If you read this, remind me again which question I've side-stepped. If possible I'll try to answer this evening. Goodbye. --Gene

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 27, 2001.


Gene,

Read your message you posted here on 11/15. I do think it was anybetter, than what you are "complaining" about in the Saint thread. Do you ? It was only 2 weeks ago today.

God Bless You.

David S

-- David S (asdzxc8176@aol.com), November 29, 2001.


David--
I'm not on the defensive. If you see anything uncharitable about:

They can all absolve themselves of sin, in the privacy of their own bedroom. Forget Jesus. He has to accept them this way! Very convenient for Alex Jr!

Let me know. I meant simply, a non-Catholic doesn't have a priest for confessing to. He doesn't care; and it's Jesus who has to accept it. People like Alex Jr make it out to be a sin to confess to a Catholic priest. The title of that thread was ''Does it make any difference if you're Christian or Catholic?'' (Or something similar.)

My post showed one clear difference. The absolution of our sins by the appointed minister, our Catholic confessor. I didn't attack anybody; I only showed the counter-argument they use; that they confess privately to Jesus.

I will admit, there've been other posts when I got more insulting. It was always to an anti-Catholic who tried to smear our faith, however. Or to insult the Pope or Our Blessed Mother. Not just anybody I didn't agree with. I've even gotten argumentative with Mr. Gecik; over some serious disagreements. I'm deeply sorry if I seemed to ''bash'' John. It wasn't my intention to do so. You and I, David, have nothing to argue about. We see pretty much eye-to-eye. I only suggest you take it easier on those that tick you off. For Our Divine Lord's sake, who loves us! God be with you!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 29, 2001.


Oh and let me answer Carolyn (cksunshine) as well, while we're on the subject.

Here's her words: '' About Protestants and the sacrament of Reconciliation is a valid question, and to answer it: no, we all know they do not have this sacrament. They, if they were baptised, did receive forgiveness through their baptism. It seems though that you meant your question not to be a springboard for discussion, but rather a way for you to write sarcastic, generalistic, bashing comments about Protestants.'' --I was employing a ''distant'' and disapproving manner. It's not from superiority; I just find the notion some anti-Catholics have, that all you need is to be ''Christian'', and you've bought the whole franchise; I find this appalling. Ed asked if the Catholic faith offered any advantage opposed to just being a free-lance Christian. Let me say, this was a great springboard for discussion. But no one took me up on it.

I answered it with a little too much vehemence for cksunshine. For this I apologise. Nothing in my makeup is perfect. I sometimes like to fire from the hip; and most of all whenever I know I'm right. (THAT statement will probably disgust somebody. TOO BAD!)

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 29, 2001.


BTW, I would very much like a chance to reply to Mark the Messianic Jew on the over-all contents of his postings. It's better to wait until he makes new contact with us, if he's going to. Mark has been missing for a while, and I don't care to devote an half hour or longer to posting something he'll never read. If he's in here now, he can comment.

Maybe then we can begin a new thread relating to the Messiah, the Jews, and the Catholic faith. I would welcome his contributions, and maybe we can each of us help him come to terms with his role as a believer in the Son of God.

The other fellow, Michael, wasn't motivated by any hope in Jesus Christ, I think. He wasn't very kindly disposed to Catholics is all. Can't you just see Michael now? His head butted up against his monitor-screen (PCU-?) He has a picture of the Wailing Wall there that he loves to smack his head on. Let me see how that feels: --Thump!!!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 29, 2001.


Eugene,

You know, when you weren't posting for a bit you almost made it into our prayers list for the MIA. Seems like it wasn't necessary though... ;-)

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 29, 2001.


Frank--
You can still pray for me; I'm always eligible for mercy. Took a drive down to San Diego from Nor Cal; a harrowing trip each way. We visited my in-laws for the holiday. My sis-in-law has a new computer, but it ties up the phone line. I tried to post, but for some reason, couldn't. You need a mail-box separate from the owner's etc., with a password and all that. I just gave up.

My birthday was also Thanksgiving. Turkey Day-- why is that apropos? I'm home again, in God's country: Just west of Napa, and it's rainy season. Oh, well. Thanks, Frank!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 29, 2001.


Feliz cumpleanos to Eugene "Pavo" Chavez!

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 29, 2001.

If the shoe fits, I guess I have to wear it. Did you know one of my names is Pablo? Yup. Higinio Pablo Cecilio Chavez. Gene is what my dad was called and it was passed on to me. Higinio is the name of a very saintly Pope. Saint Higinius? Pablo is my grandfather's name. He was a cousin of the senator from NM in the 50's, Dennis Chavez. A poor relation, I'm afraid. El Pavo is close; but I survived Thanksgiving, thank God /

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 29, 2001.

So "Eugene" is an anglicized version of "Higinio," your baptismal name, Gene?

Perhaps you have an early Greek Pope, St. Hyginus, as your patron saint?

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 30, 2001.


Yes, Hyginus. Oh, the Eugene has a phonetic similarity. My dad was employed as a boy by Italian grocers. They started calling him Gene. He went to using the ''Eugene''. It passed to me in Catholic school. The sisters wouldn't accept ''Genie'' which is the awful name I carried my first 8 years!!! I've been grateful to them ever since. Lol!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 30, 2001.

Dear Eugene,

Apology accepted. One of the drawbacks of posting messages, etc, is one is not able to hear the tone with which something is said. As everyone knows that can make a huge difference. From getting to know you through this board, particularly with some things that you've just written in the last few days, I am coming to better understand where you come from and your "style". Thank you for understanding that you came off rather strong. I understand much better now what you were trying to say.

BTW: Happy belated birthday!

Carolyn

-- cksunshine (cklrun@hotmail.com), November 30, 2001.


Thank you, Carolyn. You are a ray of sunshine here, don't go away, OK?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 30, 2001.

Why does a church even matter isn't it just about jesus. Love jesus with all your heart and follow his word and be saved isn't that how it goes or am I off ?

-- ryan (modestxmouse@yahoo.com), December 03, 2001.

The Church is important for one principle reason. The Church is Jesus Christ Himself. It is also within the framework of the Catholic Church that we find the physical presence of Jesus. We mustn’t look at the Church as an institution or collection of buildings. We must look at the Church as the living, breathing Body of Christ and then and only then will we begin to understand what Jesus accomplished when He gave Peter all authority to make decisions on His behalf. All Christians make up the body of Christ. Jesus is the Head of this Body, His Church. Readers would be well served to refer to another thread placed recently entitled “Communion of Saints - Body of Christ”.

I opened this thread by posing a question. I would now like to give my answer to this very important question that I feel differentiates the Catholic faith from other Christian faiths. Catholics believe Jesus and His Church have given them all the tools necessary for salvation. We believe that other Christian faiths have put themselves at a decided disadvantage in rejecting some of these basic and rudimentary tools.

The most important tool that God gave us was Himself in the form of Jesus Christ on the Cross and by extension, in the Holy Eucharist. Jesus commanded His apostles to celebrate the Eucharist until His return. The apostles became the first priests of Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church. They were ordained by no less than Jesus Christ, Himself. The Eucharist doesn’t represent pure charity and love, it IS pure charity and love. It’s Jesus Christ truly crucified for love of us.

We know that God is present everywhere, He’s omni-present. We know that Jesus is present in His Word. He is present in His people as the Head of the Body of Christ. But in a very special, unique, magnificent and substantial way, Jesus Christ is present in the Eucharist. If you have Jesus physically present with you, if you are in the presence of the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings what more could you possibly need for salvation? The Catholic Church has “Emmanuel - God among us!” As the only Church founded by Christ, the Catholic Church is the only one than can honestly make this claim.

Pope John Paul II quoting our Mother the Church has stated on many occasions that the Eucharist is the “source and summit of our Christian faith”. It is important to note, he didn’t say the Eucharist was the source and center of our “Catholic” faith. He clearly stated it was at the source of our “Christian” faith. Unfortunately, non-Catholics have discarded the most important tool Christ gave us for salvation - the gift of Himself!

In baptism we are initiated into Christ. The Eucharist completes that Christian initiation. Baptism made us one with Him. Confirmation strengthened us in Him and through the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice we are taken up in the high priesthood of Jesus and through, with and in Him, we offer our spiritual sacrifice, our whole life, everything that we are, everything that we do past, present and forever. That is what happens when we co-celebrate (as participants) the Eucharist at Mass with Jesus.

God has called us all to be saints. All a saint is really, is one who is purified or sanctified sufficiently to be allowed eventually into the presence of Almighty God - one who is without sin or the stain of sin and thus, in a state of grace. Outside of God’s will we have no sanctification. The Father wills that we become the living presence of His Son, Jesus Christ in the way we live our lives. What better way to accomplish this than to first become filled with the physical presence of Jesus Himself at Holy Communion. The Eucharist is the entrance into the paschal banquet, into the life of Christ. We know that one day we will share in the banquet of the lamb, the new Jerusalem; but we will only do so if we mirror the life of Christ in this world as His follower.

Many Catholics do not realize the tremendous gift Jesus gave us at the Last Supper. The Church teaches that if you don’t believe the central fundamental Catholic doctrine of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, quite simply, you are a heretic. You have lost your faith. This important fact bears repeating - If you are a Catholic and don’t believe that Jesus Christ is physically and substantially present in body, blood, soul and divinity in the Eucharist then you have lost your faith. People often confuse faith with reason. They try to understand that which is essentially mystery. We will never understand it! The greatest theological minds the world has ever known didn’t and couldn’t understand it but they gave ascent to it. The Saints didn’t understand it, but they believed it. Faith precedes understanding. We don’t walk by sight, we walk by faith.

The Eucharist is all-powerful. It has the power to heal, the power overcome evil, the power to sanctify, the power to build up the body of Christ, the power to unite. People often comment that if Jesus is really in the Eucharist, how come we don’t demonstrate our conviction of this by showing Him more respect than we do. One fellow said that if He believed that Jesus were really truly and present in the Eucharist, He would enter the back of the Church on His knees and crawl to the front out of respect and love for Jesus and never leave the sanctuary. The answer to his question is simple. Each one of us is disposed to receive Jesus in the Eucharist to varying degrees. Our minds and hearts are only open in varying dimensions to receive the pure grace that stems from the Eucharist. If we were completely open to receiving Jesus in the Eucharist, St. Pierre Julien Eymard, the founder of modern-day Eucharistic adoration, says we would surely die of instant happiness. He says we would be made instant saints. We would have to be - it’s Jesus.

Father John Corapi, a well-known U.S. Catholic priest agrees. He says The Eucharist is Jesus Himself - God. Infinite grace is made available, poised, waiting; but you don’t receive infinite grace every time you receive the Eucharist. Why? Because you don’t have the capacity. None of us have the capacity to receive infinite anything. We are finite. We have limitations. God has no limitations. He is infinite. But we can receive more or less of that grace made available depending on our disposition for it. Your entire life is oriented to being made ready, being capacitated, being disposed to receive the grace made available in the Eucharist. If you become properly disposed to receiving the Eucharist, if you pray fervently, if you do penance, if you truly begin to love your brother as you love yourself, if you begin to live the gospel in all of its’ richness as you have heard it proclaimed to you, the aperture, the channel through which grace flows will be gradually widened for you. Every time you receive the Eucharist you will be able to receive more and more of God’s sanctifying grace.

The first announcement of the Eucharist by Jesus divided His disciples, just as the announcement of the Passion scandalized them. Jesus was known to admonish his disciples when they misinterpreted His words. He was known to grow impatient with them when they failed to grasp the full intent of His meaning. He wasn’t shy about setting them straight when they were in error. However, at the Bread of Life discourse in John’s gospel we see that after Jesus had mentioned His body was real food and real drink, the disciples said, “this is a hard saying! Who can accept it?” (John 6:60) and so, many left. At this point Jesus did not say, “Oh, wait a minute, don’t leave, you’ve completely misunderstood what I was saying, I was speaking in symbolic terms only!” No, He didn’t say that did he? What He said to those who remained was, “Will you also go away?” (John 6:67) In other words, “I am telling you the Truth!” It has been clear for two thousand years, for anyone who has eyes to see and ears to listen exactly what Jesus was talking about. It is only the last 500 years or so that many have clouded Jesus’ words to suit their own agenda.

The word Eucharist comes from the Greek word “Eucharistein” which means “thanksgiving” or “an action of thanksgiving”. The word comes from early Jewish blessings that were proclaimed, especially during a meal, to describe God’s many loving works of creation, redemption and sanctification. Eucharist, means to give thanksgiving for! The Mass, the celebration of the Holy Eucharist is also called the” breaking of bread”, because Jesus used this rite, a part from a Jewish meal, the Passover meal, to show us how to recognize the new “Bread of Life” that would be given to the world so that all could be forgiven and saved.

In the very earliest of Jewish times it was the custom for many to place their sins upon a goat that was then driven out into the wilds. There the goat would eventually die and along with it, the sins of those who drove it out. It is from this custom that we have derived the expression “scapegoat”. As time progressed and customs evolved, the Jewish people came to place their sins on a lamb which was sacrificed to their God, on an altar. Jesus used Jewish customs many times to convey to those what He was trying to teach. Jesus became the new sacrificial lamb. Jesus was sacrificed on an altar, a Cross, and all of man’s sins were placed on Him and offered up to the Father for forgiveness. When we attend Mass and receive Holy Communion we join Jesus on the Cross with our pain and suffering and sin and are offered up to the Father out of an act of pure selfless love. What greater gift can you give a loving, living God whose only purpose of existence is to love you, than giving Him yourself? Non-Catholics Christians have cut off this most genuine form of redemptive prayer and worship and source of sanctifying grace. They don’t have the Eucharist! They don’t offer Jesus, the sacrificial lamb and themselves, up to the Father out of love, and seek His forgiveness.

It is amazing that while many Christians do not believe in the Real Presence of the Eucharist, Satan most surely does. Jesus called Satan a liar and the father of lies. He is the one who truly wants you to believe that Jesus isn’t really and substantially present in the Eucharist. Satan knows the power of the Eucharist! At the Crucifixion, Satan thought he had finally won. Satan thought he had finally put Jesus on the Cross once and for all in victory. Since Satan cannot foretell the future, it was only later as the Body of Christ began to grow and flourish that Satan realized what Jesus had accomplished and what a tremendous and powerful gift Jesus had really given us - the Holy Eucharist. It was only later that Satan realized Jesus had overcome death with death, the death of sin had been overcome with the death of a Saviour on a Cross. The Eucharist is the greatest gift a loving God ever gave to His beloved children. Its only the enemy of souls who wants us to believe that He is not really there.

At the Last Supper, on the night He was betrayed, our Saviour instituted the Eucharistic Sacrifice of His Body and Blood. This He did in order to perpetuate the Sacrifice of the Cross throughout the ages until He should come again. He gave His beloved spouse, the Church and its members, a living memorial of His death and resurrection, a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a paschal banquet in which He is consumed and in which we are filled with grace and a pledge of future glory is given to us.

At Holy Mass, in the Eucharist, we make present the sacrifice of Calvary. We reach into eternity and bring it forth into time and space. There is only one sacrifice, the sacrifice of the Cross. We enter into it, we don’t repeat it, we don't re-enact it. At Mass, we are there at Calvary! We are at the foot of the Cross with Mary and John and the others. And when we do this, we make present the saving power of God. When you eat any other kind of food you assimilate it, but when you eat the Bread of Life, Jesus assimilates you to Himself. You become one with Christ and with others who are in a similar state of grace. At Mass the priest mixes the water and wine and prays, “by the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled Himself to share in our humanity”. When we receive the Eucharist we enter into the Eucharistic mystery and we come to share in the divinity of Christ. We have the greatest gift God has ever given us, the gift of Himself! We have Jesus in the Eucharist and many Christians don’t even realize it.

It is for this reason, the Eucharist, that Catholics say they posses all the tools necessary for salvation. It is for this reason, the Eucharist, that Catholics believe non-Catholics put themselves at a decided disadvantage in acquiring eternal happiness.

St. James and Mary Our Blessed Mother pray that all will come to realize the fullness of Jesus’ gift to humanity - the Holy Eucharist!

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), December 03, 2001.


Hi everybody,

I found an article, that at first glance seems to go along with this thread very well, it's called: "Why Only Catholicism Can Make Protestantism Work"

It's located at: http://www.e3mil.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=2&art_id=10915

I'm sorry that I don't know how to make it a true link here, but if you copy and paste it should work (or just type it in).

Disclaimer: I haven't had a chance to read the whole article fully, yet, but found it interesting enough in just skimming it, to bring it to this thread. I hope to read it in depth this evening.

Carolyn

P.S. Eugene, you are SO kind! Thank you, and don't worry, I'm not going anywhere! :)

-- cksunshine (cklrun@hotmail.com), December 04, 2001.


Hi, Carolyn.
Thanks for that URL. I'm going to read the article too.

To make a link, insert the following kind of structure into the middle of your sentence, but substitute greater-than and less-than signs ("<" and ">") for the braces ("{" and "}").

{a href="YOUR URL"} YOUR DESCRIPTION OF THE LINKED PAGE {/a}

For example:

{a href="http://www.e3mil.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=2&art_id=10915"} Brumley article on Catholicism and Protestantism {/a}

should come out as:

Brumley article on Catholicism and Protestantism

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 04, 2001.


Who ever can give me suggestions, I have never been in this forum so please excuse my lack of knowledge dealing with religion. My dilema is this, I was born and I still am catholic. I may not practice it as I should but I was recently divorced from a catholic. I am now involved in a relationship where my partner is christian. We have had discussions regarding the differences and there seems to be some minor conlict. I am somewhat concerned because she seems to have strong beliefs in christianity and I have my beliefs in being a catholic. She felt very stuck when we were discussing the differences and how it could interfere with our relationship. This probably a woman that I could maybe marry one day but I dooo not want to run into problems when and if we decide to get married? I told her that I would not let religion come between me and someone I deeply care about. She was somewhat upset because the questions arose if we did get married what church would we get married in? I told her that if she wants to continue this relationship we could both find a median between our religions and work things out. Luckily she talked with an older woman who was christian and was married to catholic and she told her the same thing I told her inregards to not letting religion come between us,which was good but I still think theres more we need to discuss except I don't know where to start. Can someone help me out. An if anyone is wandering I'm 31 and she is 24!!!

-- troy (elizabeth@stic.net), April 27, 2002.

Troy,

First of all, all Catholics are by definition Christian. You are a Christian.

Second, could you post your question as a new topic? It would help you get answers if your question was on a separate thread.

God Bless,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), April 27, 2002.


To the original post,

"We have said many times before that to be Catholic (and not Christian) is to be in possession of all (not some) of the tools necessary for salvation. While being Catholic does not guarantee salvation, Catholics believe they have a distinct advantage over fellow Christians."

A good Christian is better than a bad Catholic. Jesus primarily came here to teach the moral life, not theology. Sometimes I get bothered by all the theology pushed by Catholics. When the disciples (not the 12) left Jesus side after his bread of life discourse, they were better for doing that than the one apostle who stayed with Jesus and remained living a lie.

Depending on a person's state of mind, it could be worse for a particular person to be Catholic. If someone can't accept the core, don't live a lie. Such a one could perish for remaining theologically a Catholic.

I also need to remind myself that Jesus told the Samaritan woman, at the well, in John's Gospel (if I recall scripture right), that salvation came from the Jews, it did not come from the northern kingdom of Samaria, who had been worshiping false gods for years. So even though the Jews of the southern kingdom, who claimed the central sanctuary, and who had their 300+ human laws to follow and the problem of arrogant leadership, salvation still came from them. Likewise, Catholics teach the truth, regardless of poor teaching methods or scandals, salvation comes from Catholics.

Christians use the bible, they are baptised, they don't worship false gods. Their salvation comes from the Catholics, through the bible, given to them by Catholics.

The good Samaritan parable tells what it means to live as the Jewish faith taught even though a person might not claim full technical membership with those people. Morally, the good Samaritan acted as a Jew, theologically he was on the outside. Similarly, someone might study Catholic teaching and not have access to a priest due to geography and shortages. Are they Catholic? Are they holy in God's eyes? Could be.

That's all I have, thanks.

-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), April 27, 2002.


Hi Troy,

I don't know if this will help or not but; My mother remarried to the most wonderful man, a very devout, and I mean devout, Irish Catholic. He is probably the most devout Catholic I've ever met.

My mom is protestant, very religious herself. Both being very particular in remaining in their own religion, they had to pick a non- denominational church to marry in.

The church they chose was beautiful.

My mother's now husband, has a very good friend who is a priest, he along with the pastor of my mother's church married the two of them.

They are both very happy. They attend service/mass seperatly, but this doesn't bother them because they are truly happy together, both living a very religious life, and both true to their own religion.

God Bless,

-- Kathy (nomail@sorry.com), April 27, 2002.


Top

-- - (@@@.com), July 31, 2002.

Hello there, I was just wondering if anybody frequented this forum any more, I found it very interesting to read all the posts here and I also found the other "Michael's" stubborn and ignorant views quite hilarious. I being a Catholic follower as well am pleased to see so many people standing up for the faith against those whose intent is persecution. God bless, -Michael Z

-- Michael Zubelewicz (QuasiM@Aol.com), October 17, 2004.

You will find this to be a quiet active forum, save for weekends, and soem weeks when its slow.

-- ZAROVE (ZAROFF3@JUNO.COM), October 17, 2004.

I think that many of the comments on this forum and hurtful, misinterpreted, hostile and uncalled for. This forum is merely suppose to be for discussion not argument. We are speaking of GOD here. Would he want this. Are you guys being spiritual when you are bashing others opinions. Everyone has the right to their own opinion. I think acceptance is the answer. Did we forget all of us are GOD's children and we should love each other. I don't think GOD would like the some of the pretense in this forum. I pray for each and every one of you.

GOD BLESS

-- Tracy J (tjardine@heenan.ca), February 23, 2005.


Thank you, Tracy. Our forum is infested these days, you must understand.

When a large farm is over-run with mice, a good farmer fights them. If he allows more and more of them, they take away all the food. Our forum is Christ's sheepfold; and we are His sheep. His sheep follow their good shepherds; those called by Jesus to serve Him.

But now we must combat other shepherds, NOT called by Jesus; but by Satan. He tells them the Pope is a BAD shepherd; tell Catholics not to follow him anymore. What would Tracy expect Jesus to say?

''My sheep can follow anybody they want; just don't ever be smart. Be dumb sheep, let new shepherds steal you out of my sheepfold.'' Is that how Jesus would want His people to be? Sweet and gentle, but DUMB? Was Jesus sweet, gentle and dumb, when the Pharisees accused Him of having a devil? No, He said to their faces, They were children of their father the devil; who was a liar and father of lies.-- Jesus didn't care for liars, Tracy.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), February 23, 2005.


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