Just a comment on two things that stick in my craw regarding this whole Islam debategreenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread
Through all of this most amusing foray into the world of misguided challenges, two things have really been illustrated repeatedly, but not appreciated.
First...does the Bible contradict itself? In a word, no. The Bible is the chronicled history of God's people as they have an increased understanding of God and what He desires from us. So it may seem there are conflicting incidents, but what has really be occurring is God's people growing in knowledge and understanding. I mean, you don't give birth to a child who can do much of nothing in the arena of mobility, and then two years later say that the child contradicts his existence because he can walk. The same is true of Sacred Scripture. It is a history of our walk of faith in learning about God. We began as infants, but through time and God continually revealing more about Himself when we could understand it, we began to evolve into children...then adults.
Second...does Christ say we should worship Him? Well, if you are not Christian, it may be impossible for you to receive our replies as valid...and you have not. You see, as Christians, we believe Christ is God incarnate. That means He became man. So when Christ speaks of obeying God's commandments and when Christ commands us to do as He taught us, He is God telling us these things. So, if our answers don't satisfy you, it is simply because you have not been raised with our Scripture and understanding. So, yes...God commands us recognize that He is God, and to worship no other gods. Because God took human form in the Son, that is Christ...we are told to worship Him. Seems like I may be beating my head against a wall in even trying to make sense of these fact to any Muslim who only wishes to insult over understand. But, I thought I would try. The Holy Spirit (who is also God...it's called the Trinity...God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit...all manifestations of one God) compelled me to air my grievances.
Peace and all good
-- Melissa (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 15, 2001
-- (_@_._), November 16, 2001.
I wanted to tell you, that I love to read your Posts. I think we could explain the Holy Bible to the Muslims on this forum, for the next 20 years, and, they still would grunt the same comments out. They actually remind me, of cattle. They do not use their own minds, and they are led to their own destiny, making the same noises. What strange people in this world !
God Bless You.
-- David S (email@example.com), November 16, 2001.
Thanks, David. I just feel like I have had enough with the lunacy, and go off like a shot sometimes. I get tired of seeing the same people answer the same questions to no avail. So to hear that my posts are enjoyed by at least one person makes my day.
-- Melissa (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 16, 2001.
Melissa, you are very wise for your age young lady! I hope you stick around for awhile, for I too, enjoy reading your posts.
-- Ed Lauzon (email@example.com), November 17, 2001.
I had the urge to pass this thread, because the Muslim argument has started to become plain bashing. It's a natural reaction since their remarks about our Christian faith have been for the most part unjust. It's natural to want to simply reject these people.
I've been quite confrontational with the last few Muslim posters. In my own way, I've had no mercy. But I don't want to fall to the base level of referring to them as cattle; nor condemning any individuals to hell for their obstinacy. They after all entered into our forum by God's own design. All they'll learn here (or reject completely) is what God wants them to know. So we ought to conduct our discussions with respect for them as human beings. It's called Christian charity.
There's no telling what our efforts might provide to one or another of these individuals in the course of his/her life. What seems to me at this moment the blunt ignorance and fanaticism of Larry's or Minasay's words might be a deceptive impression. God may be working to liberate them, as time goes by --from their captivity to Islam. We must have faith. Do our best to communicate with them in good faith, without insulting words; and letting the chips fall where they may. Tell it like it is, the words of the 60's activists. (Who sometimes told it like it wasn't !) But let's not be too overbearing. God loves every one of us. Not just the Christian and the Catholic.
-- eugene c. chavez (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 17, 2001.
You said, " But I don't want to fall to the base level of refering to them as cattle, nor condeming any indivual to hell for their obstinacy "
If I look back on it now, [like you are doing now ], I was very aggresive toward our Muslim Friends. And I, probably OVERSTEPPED my bounds. I am sorry if I offened You.
But, Gene, If someone talks, negative, about My God, I will get angry again. I can not help my nature, no matter what you think about me.
Please look in mirror at yourself before you judge me Gene . Because it was only a few days ago, when you told someone on this forum, that they would be in hell.
God Bless You.
-- David S (email@example.com), November 17, 2001.
Oh, Heck, David. Don't take it personally. Your good intentions are very apparent. You and I are on the same page, we have to give an answer when the faith is challenged. I'm often confrontational. But let me say that I always find a way of keeping it impersonal if I can. I have said some inflammatory things yes; but only about the ''prophet'' and about Islam the religion. Not about the followers themselves. They are not all our enemies. These folks who came into the forum lately are convinced they have the truth. It's OK to inform them of the error; but as friends. Not as if we hated them. You may read my notes to Minisay. In all of them I had a way of arguing that didn't try to belittle her/him? Just the things he/she believes. When I told him that he would be in hell, it was in stating how Jesus Himself said, ''I will deny him before my Father in heaven,'' (the ones that deny him before men.) I was saying, Muslims deny Jesus is the Son of God. This is the way to hell. But I'm hoping always that they will come to believe the Gospel. I haven't any right to declare this. It's up to them. Let's realise the seriousness of the mission we all have as good Catholics. We must help these people come to Jesus Christ! We ought to try to do it with persuasion, not with anger. God converts men, David. We have no power to convert them. All we're asked to do is give testimony to the truth. You've done it; and I hope you continue to do so. I'm not judging you badly at all. I know you're a good man. God be with you; let's pray for the Will of God to be accomplished through us.
-- eugene c. chavez (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 17, 2001.
Thanks for your kind words to me.I hope you have a happy Thnksgiving. Don't eat to much of that turkey, and take it easy on the wine.
God Bless You MR. Gene
-- David S (email@example.com), November 20, 2001.
"Do they not consider the Qur'an? Had it been from other then Allah surely they would have found much discrepancies within it" (Surah An- Nisa 4:82)
Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to (Allah) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah." He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?" He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed." So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!" But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee; And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee. So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to (Allah) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'" At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!" But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?" He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live"(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight. But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day! How plainly will they see and hear, the Day that they will appear before Us! but the unjust today are in error manifest! But warn them of the Day of Distress, when the matter will be determined: for (behold,) they are negligent and they do not believe! It is We Who will inherit the earth, and all beings thereon: to Us will they all be returned. 19.016-19.040 Qura'an
-- Meeda (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 09, 2001.
It's good sometimes to take a break from serious discussion to read a bit of fiction.
-- (email@example.com), December 10, 2001.