Hello, I'm going to be creating a 40,000 sq.ft. building in the near future. Anyways, I'm unsure as to whether I should go with a Steel building design or a pole barn design? I need this building to be extremely energy efficient since I'm going to be using it for a fish hatchery and will need to maintain a temperature that is fairly constant. In addition, I'm looking to produce this as affordably as possible. Can anyone offer any suggestions? Thanks a lot! Steve

-- Steve Woznick (Jamma74@yahoo.com), November 27, 2001

Answers

Where? What sort of exterior climate? Are you worried about winter cold, or summer heat, or what? Is the building to be shaded - your contribution, or plants on a trellis, or trees? In winter, or summer? Can't help without LOTS more information.

-- Don Armstrong (from Australia) (darmst@yahoo.com.au), November 27, 2001.

I agree with Don, especially why an enclosed fish hatchery. Can't recall ever seeing one that large (200' by 200'), but then I have not seen any hatcheries where it gets really cold (like northern Canada).

-- Joe (CactusJoe001@AOL.com), November 27, 2001.

Thats an acre under cover. Pretty large area to heat and or cool. What kind of tempatures you need to maintain? Are you covering a large pond or are you going to be covering tanks? Do you need straight side walls or will curved walls (arched) work? How important is cost? Is there a realalistic budget? Can you live with several smaller buildings with connecting breezways?

There are lots of steel buildings that will work, some with vertical walls, some are arches. You might want to look at cast concrete walls. this would give you better insulation properties. Also a domed monolythic structure might work as well.

-- Gary (gws@columbus.rr.com), November 27, 2001.

Would you consider using an older structure that needs to be removed. There are many older chicken houses that would be somewhere around 60 by 400 that need to be moved. If you have never seen one, they are long narrow metal barns with chicken wire sides. If you could replace the chicken wire with corrugated tin they would be totally enclosed. They heat them with propane for the chickens. A couple of those would work if you wanted that shape. A friend of mine recently took one down and put it back up over at his farm for sheep.

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), November 27, 2001.

Steve, when a friend of mine needed a warm building for his piglets, he went with a steel building and used spray-on insulation on the inside. He also uses 2 gas heaters in the winter. http://aquanic.org has some great advice on hatcherys, maybe you could get some ideas from their discussion groups too. Good luck!

-- cowgirlone (cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), November 27, 2001.

STEVE....I`M IN ATLANTIC CANADA AND IT GETS FAIRLY COLD HERE.I`VE ONLY SEEN ONE ENCLOSED HATCHERY.THE REST ARE OUTDOORS. COULDN`T YOU KEEP THE LARGER FISH OUTSIDE AND THE SMALLER ONES MORE AT RISK INSIDE.HERE IS MY SUGGESTION.DO THE STRUCTURE AS A METAL FRAME BUILDING THEN USE CORDWOOD AS YOUR INFILL. YOU CAN GET AN R=90 WALL.PLUS WHERE THE LOGS BREATH YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO CONTROL MOISTURE.PLUS SOME VENTING IN THE SUMMER.A BUILDING WITH A LOT OF WATER INSIDE WOULD TRANSMIT ALOT OF THE MOISTURE INTO THE STRUCTURE.CAUSING MOLD AND MILDEW IN OTHER SEALED WOODEN STRUCTURAL SYSTEMS. NOW CORDWOOD IS SLOW TO BUILD BUT THE LABOUR IS YOURS AND LOCAL KIDS.THIS KEEPS COST DOWN.TO HEAT THE BUILDING I`D GO WITH AN OUT DOOR WOOD FURNACE.I`VE SEEN CORDWOOD STRUCTURES UP TO 18,000 SQ FT AND THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT CAN BE BUILT WITH CORDWOOD.AS LONG AS THE INTERIOR STRUCTURAL SUPPORT IS THERE FOR THE ROOF.[THE 18,000 SQ FT BUILDING I`M TALKING ABOUT IS A HOCKEY RINK.WHICH IS A DAMP BUILDING BECAUSE OF THE ICE AND BREATHING.] POLE BARNS ONLY HAVE A LIFE EXPECTANCY OF ABOUT 20 YEARS UNDER NORNAL SITUATIONS.BUT YOURS WOULD HASTEN ITS DEMISE BY THE AMOUNT OF MOISTURE YOU WOULD BE SUBJECTING IT TO.

JUST A THOUGHT CORDWOODGUY

-- CORDWOODGUY (cordwoodguy@n2teaching.com), November 27, 2001.

Thanks so much for all the great info! I truly appreciate everyone taking time out to respond.

Anyways, I wrote the message late at night and that is why I omitted some info. The building is going to be in northern Indiana and will thus have to be heated fairly well. Specifically, I'll need to maintain a constant temperature of about 72-75 degrees. I'm going to be utilizing passive solar and I've looked at various outdoor woodburning stoves as means of possibly heating this large of structure. I'm also going to be positioning various trees on the perimeter of the building to minimize harsh winds blowing against it.

I chose this region because of my distribution strategy. I also prefer the idea of an enclosed hatchery as this, in my opinion, better utilizes space within a fish hatchery.

I really don't have any preference as far as having arches or not. The aesthetics of the building are definitely secondary to me.

As far as a budget goes, I'd like to keep this building under $150,000 if this is possible at all. If not, I'll just be forced into making the building a bit smaller or possibly connecting smaller buildings.

I tried to answer all the questions but I'm going to go back and read all the posts a second time to see if I missed anything. Let me know if you have any more ideas. Thanks again for all the great responses!! Steve

-- Steve Woznick (Jamma74@yahoo.com), November 27, 2001.

I've seen advertisements for chicken-barns or whatever as well. Also old factory buildings or warehouses. Standing buildings go cheap because it then costs you to take them down and move them. I've also seen ads where people have taken down an existing building to rebuild themselves: not as cheap, as they've put in the labour. Keep an eye on classified ads from nearby large cities, and also big rural papers. As for heating, I'd be inclined to heat the water rather than the air. After all, that's what you want heated. Let the air be heated secondarily by contact with the water. Large buildings generally have high roofs, and that's a lot of air you don't really need to heat. Think about it, anyway.

-- Don Armstrong (from Australia) (darmst@yahoo.com.au), November 27, 2001.

Just a thought, but with water being a much better heat sink than air, would you not be better off finding some way to heat the water instead of the entire building? In ground heat pump, Trombe wall with transfer tubes into the growing tanks, wood burning boiler with heat transfer pipes through the growing tanks are all things that come to mind. Having your growing tanks at least partially buried should also provide extra insulation and lessened heat loss. Thermal covers at night? I'm sure there are many more ideas than this. Also look into raising fish that do better in cooler water, like trout. I know there is at least one former dairy farm here in WI that has converted to fish production, so it can be done in cold climes.

-- ray s. (mmoetc@yahoo.com), November 27, 2001.

I'd suggest looking into structural insulated panels. You can get them in various thicknesses and R-Values. Additionally, SIP structures are more airtight and maintain more consistent temperatures throught. I hope this helps.

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), November 27, 2001.

I'm guessing you're going for tilapia (because of the necessary temperature range), so outside tanks wouldn't be an option in northern Indiana. I would think about using the ground for starters (sunken building, rather than built-up), coupled with solar collector/covers for the tanks, like they use on some swimming pools. That with a greenhouse-type double-glazed plastic roof would probably have some significant impact. Also, wouldn't there be less cold air space if you made more, smaller in-ground buildings?

-- Laura Jensen (lauraj@seedlaw.com), November 27, 2001.

I don't know much about building or heating such a large building, but it does sound like an interesting undertaking. Will you please keep us informed with your progress on this project? I am sure that their are many here who have thought of small scale fish raising. Good Luck!

-- Mark in N.C. Fla. (deadgoatman@webtv.net), November 27, 2001.

You can buy a Steelmaster arched building, 80 foot long for about 8K. You could buy larger of couse, or add on anytime you need to. Spray insulation real thick on the inside. The Steelmaster has a 25 year guarantee, and is easy to put up. You would have plenty of money left for a super outdoor wood furnace. You can get a pallet sized wood furnace and just throw pallets in it. Pallets are free everywhere. Oak pallets. I used to have a wood furnace with a thermastat on the wall. That would work to keep it constant as possible. Have fun with your big project.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), November 28, 2001.

If it is practical for your location, why not just dig out collums, pour them with concrete then pour the top as a slab, go back inside and dig out the space you need. This would give you the space, earth insulation, foundation for greenhouse or space for solar water heating, basket ballcourt, tennis court, shop; what ever you wanted to use it for....

-- mitch hearn (moopups@citlink.net), November 28, 2001.