Hmmmmm...nude witches...needing a place to hold their retreat...

I don't have anywhere *near* as much land as where they currently hold their current retreat but I'm almost positive I could make room for them here at my place...

Note to self: Look into the feasibility of developing a southern Minnesota Gaea Retreat Center. :-D

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Camp for Nude Witches Fights Closing

LEAVENWORTH, Kan. (Reuters) - A Kansas retreat that caters to witches and pagan rituals is fighting for survival amid community talk that naked witches may be weaving magical spells in the moonlight.

The owners of the Gaea Retreat Center, a 168-acre camp west of Kansas City that is home to such annual events as the Gaea Goddess Gathering and a ``Heartland Pagan Spiritual event'' filed suit on Monday in Leavenworth County District Court after county commissioners effectively put the retreat out of business by denying it a renewal of its land use permit.

``They say they're afraid of us, what we do here, the sound of drums. ... They don't know how lucky they are to have us as their neighbors,'' caretaker Wanda Roths said. ``We're very quiet, very peaceful. There has never been any trouble out here.''

The Leavenworth County commissioners denied the renewal for the permit, issued six years ago, in late October after a community petition raised accusations that the retreat fostered public nudity, pedophilia, and illegal drug and alcohol use. Neighbors also expressed concern about devil worship.

The suit claims the commissioners' denial is illegal and unconstitutional, as well as violating laws protecting freedom of religious expression and practice.

Lawyers for the county declined to comment.

The retreat denies any illegal activity, and county officials say there is no evidence of any.

Roths said there are ``clothing optional'' locations on the retreat grounds, and witches, Wiccans and other pagans do sometimes hold nighttime meetings around bonfires. But the retreat at times also attracts more traditional religious followers, she said.

Gaea, which means ``Mother Earth,'' offers sanctuary to a variety of alternative religions and lifestyles, according to Roths. ``We accept anybody,'' she said.

Before its current incarnation, the sprawling site was a church camp.

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

Answers

You know how to pick an attention grabbing thread title, don't you, Jim! :-D

Witches do not worship the devil. Satan is not in their pantheon. Satan belongs to the Jewish/Muslim/Christian groups. I do not understand why this doesn't seem to penetrate.

Lady Liberty League will probably be getting involved in this one. If the persecuted are willing/able to fight these sorts of things, they almost always win. The grounds for denial of use are usually found to be discriminatory and unconstitutional and often, falsified.

I've been to a number of these clothing-optional gatherings {NO, I did NOT take that option -- that is too scary a picture to contemplate!}. It is not a sexual thing for the participants. Some people can't see a woman's bare FACE without it being considered a sexual temptation -- it's in the eye and mind of the beholder. Or perhaps in this case, the real issue was that the complainers COULDN'T behold what sights there were to see!

Heh, at one that I attended, the porta-potties were serviced by a local company, who sent people each day to pump out the potties. One memorable (and not in a good way) day, one of the drivers was not attending to business -- i.e. staring at a barebreasted woman (didn't he ever get to see National Geographic?) -- ran off the dirt road and tipped his pumper truck over, spilling the contents all over the road. P-U! It was subsequently requested that all participants cover themselves up at pumping out time. [sigh]

Oh, and Jim, there were AT LEAST as many men running around nude as there were women, perhaps more. Are you ready for THAT sight? :-D

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

And this from the man who still uses the word "hooters" :-)!!! Very interesting article, Jim!

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

Jim, let me see if I'm keeping up with things. There is a thread someplace that is talking about men with AIDS, in some third world country, raping virgins, believing that it will cure them. I couldn't believe that they really believe that but I guess it's better than believing that soaking in a boiling tub of oil would cure you.

Then, last night on T.V. there was a story about a place where the people believed that sacrificing a puppy to some mountain would do something or other for them. Who cares what they thought it would do? I think it was in Mexico. Still a third world country as far as I'm concerned.

Then, you come along, telling us that there are people in Kansas that actually believe that witches are casting spells and they're worried about it? Kansas isn't a third world country, is it? I guess Dorothy forgot to tell them she was back, do you reckon? I could kinda believe the people living in the third world countries would believe these things. Well, not really, but it's a lot easier than believing people in Kansas are worried that Witches are casting spells.

I'm on 300 acres with my nearest neighbor about 2 1/2 miles away. We have thousands of uninhabited acres around us. I'll try my best to outbid you for their "company". But I'd just as soon that the people who didn't take their clothes off not come. In fact, I'd just as soon that the men didn't come either. And maybe some of the women. Come to think of it, why don't you go ahead and take them and I'll just come over and pick out the ones I want?

Wildman (salivating)

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

Joy F.,

I guess it hasn't penetrated because the information I have seen seems to be different than what you said. For instance, in our World Book Encyclopedia it shows a picture of a star with a goat's face and says it is a symbol used in witchcraft, and represents Satan. I understand that not all pagens are witches and read that not all witches believe they have to deal with evil spirits but can inherit powers from their parents that are witches, but aren't there some witches that do worship Satan and do make blood sacrifices?

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

People who "worship Satan" are Satanists, which has nothing whatsoever to do with Wicca. If your encyclopedia tells you that the symbol you described is a symbol of Satan that is used in witchcraft, it is just plain wrong! Wiccans would have no more use of a symbol of Satan than they would of the Pope or Zeus or David Koresh, cuz these individuals simply dont enter into their religious belief system at all.

As far as belief in having to deal with evil spirits, I would say the Catholic church has a very close tie to this belief system, and even though the Protestants are less enamoured of this line of thought, when they think of it they usually equate it to witchcraft. There are people, surely, who practice the 'dark arts', just as there are people in the Christian community like Fred Phelps who is decidedly filled with venomous hatred and exercises it publicly. But please do not make the mistake of judging pagan religions based on the few individuals who operate from a position of fear, just as we should never judge Christianity based on the actions of the vocal extremists. Authentically they should both come from love. No doubt Joy and Sherri and others can expound on this much better than I.

By the way, Terry, its wonderful to see you back; I really mean that.

Oh and Wildman, I love you dearly, but I totally disagree with you on this one: "men with AIDS, in some third world country, raping virgins, believing that it will cure them. I couldn't believe that they really believe that but I guess it's better than believing that soaking in a boiling tub of oil would cure you. "

I personally would rather see them boil, given the above choices.

Blessings,

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

Oh, and Jim, there were AT LEAST as many men running around nude as there were women, perhaps more. Are you ready for THAT sight? :- D

Well, you know what they say... you have to take the bad with the good. :-)

And I have to agree with Auntie EM, the men boiling in oil is preferable to any of the other options - at least the person(s) in question is/are hurting only themselves in that instance.

-Jim (hoping and praying that this thread doesn't become a spark for a major flame war)

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

Earthmama, You said: "There are people, surely, who practice the 'dark arts', just as there are people in the Christian community like Fred Phelps...".I know this is probably going to sound like a stupid question but I hope you can follow me here. Would you say that if someone following the "dark arts" refers to herself as a witch that she is a considered a "bad" witch by other witches as opposed to the a good witch? (no, I am not trying to be funny here - just don't know how exactly to ask the question). Or, are you saying that someone that follows the "dark arts" is not even a witch but something else?

I don't really know how to make sense of what I am trying to ask. Let me try again. Are people who practice "dark arts" only Satanists or are there groups of witches doing this that would be considered by other witches to be off their rockers and way out of line?

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

Aaah, yes EM. When I read the boiling in oil part again, I can see that it didn't come out like it was meant! Put it down to my inability to get what I was thinking onto paper. I had the proper thinking, just the wrong execution! Boil them in oil! Profuse apologies. I assure you, if my wife had read it before I sent it, I would have changed it.

Wildman (embarrassed)

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

Re the goat-satan thing. Actually the goat or more properly Ram is Baphomet, loosely related to the Egyptian God Amon and even Brahma, but is NOT to be confused with satan. That convention came from some misinformed "church" spinmasters.

Alot of people making judgements about these things are getting their info from biased, poorly informed contemporary sources who haven't even worked their way up the scholarly ladder to dilletante.

-- Anonymous, November 29, 2001

Oh my, an invitation to expound! Thanks Terry! Seriously, I appreciate your interest in hearing "another side" and the tactful way you've phrased your questions. I have lots to say, but don't know if I'll have time for it all tonight. This may be in installments.

There are many pagans working on getting erroneous definitions in reference books changed. Is that World Book a recent edition? If it is, I'll have to pass that along as another one to contact as an erroneous source to be corrected.

That star is called a pentacle, Terry. Pagans mostly use it upright (one point up), although there are some occasions for using it upside down (one point down). To pagans, it represents the four elements (air, fire/sun, water, earth) and spirit. It IS true that Satanists have appropriated the pentacle, wearing it upside down. I've forgotten what that is supposed to symbolize for them. They're just as likely, if not more so, to wear an upside down cross. Did you know that the swastika was a Amerindian (or Native American, if you prefer) symbol, appropriated and perverted by Hitler and his Nazis? That symbol has such a NEGATIVE meaning for our society I don't know if it can ever be viewed dispassionately. Probably because we could never be certain of the intention of the person displaying it?

Yep, definitely going to be installments. I'm tired and must go to bed. More tomorrow. Unless someone else beats me to it! :-D

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

OK, I'll tag-team with Joy. :)

Terry, can you do me a favor and check the copyright date on the encyclopedia you're quoting. If it's recent I'd like to pass the information along to my contacts in the Pagan Education Network. They've been working for many years with dictionary and encyclopedia publishers to try to clear up this sort of misinformation.

The largest Pagan retreat center in Indiana was put out of business 2 years ago by the same tactics going on in KC. Here in Indiana the local member of the state House of Representatives even testified before the zoning commission that a vote for the retreat center was a vote for Satan. One thing that this article mentions but kind of glosses over is that in the 6 years that Gaea has been open, not even one complaint has been filed against them by the local police. You would think that if there was all this illegal activity going on someone would have noticed before now, wouldn't you?

As for the Satanist thing, in my experience there are three types of Satanists. The first type is made up of rebellious teens and mentally disturbed individuals who get all their information about Satanism from the media and tabloids. These are the idiots that are out vandalizing graveyards and chopping the heads off squirrels in "blood sacrifices". They are scorned by both Pagans and the real Satanists. The second type are the real Satanists. They don't actually worship Satan as as god, rather they use Satan worship as a metaphor for the pursuit of personal power. They do not worship Satan or any other gods because they believe that they themselves are gods. The third type falls in the middle. They worship the god Satan as the source of their personal power. None of these groups would be considered Pagan because Satan is part of the Christian pantheon.

There are some Pagans who could be considered as "bad witches". They are said to be "following the left-handed path". They are a small minority and most other Pagans don't want to have anything to do with them. They are similar to Satanists in that they use religion as a means to feed their egos and gain personal power. They are usually very scornful of other Pagans and in general are just all-around jerks. Most, if not all, of the Pagan Interfaith groups that I know of have written their charters in such a way as to specifically exclude anyone following a left-handed path.

Oh BTW, the official Pagan term for worshipping in the nude is "skyclad". I do have friends who participate in skyclad rituals and I understand their philosophy for doing so, but it's not something that I do myself. I can't stand to wear anything that doesn't have pockets, so going nude would be a real problem! :)

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

Thanks for your answers Joy and Sherri.

I know I stumbled around trying to ask the question in a way that made sense but Sherri's comment - {There are some Pagans who could be considered as "bad witches". They are said to be "following the left- handed path". They are a small minority and most other Pagans don't want to have anything to do with them.} - did answer my question.

I do have another question though. Are you saying that someone is just now, after all this time, trying to get correct information into reference books or that this information at one time was correct but a faction of the group evolved into something different or removed themselves from the "dark arts" as Earthmama refered to it? Does this question make sense?

Our World Book Encyclopedia has a 1985 copyright. I have not checked any articles from the encyclopedia that's on our computer. I always still gravitate to our set on the bookshelf. We do have the updated yearbooks through about 1997, but they are still in a box somewhere so I haven't checked to see if any of this info was updated. I just quickly grabbed the ole "W" last night when this discussion began.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

The information is incorrect, and we are just now getting sufficient strength in numbers to get our requests heard. Twenty years ago if a group of Pagans went to the World Book folks and told them that their info on Witchcraft was incorrect, they probably would have been laughed out of the place or worse. It's kind of like the situation in the southern US back in the 1960s. The segregation laws were wrong, but it wasn't until the civil rights movement gathered sufficient numbers and attention that anything was done about them.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

I think that I've posted these links before, I hope that they'll help clear up any confusion of questions. This information comes from the Pagan Educational Network.

Modern Paganism

Modern Witchcraft

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

Still don't have time to post anymore, but I may not HAVE to, since Sherri covered it pretty well. I might think of more to say later today -- gotta do some baking right now.

Terry, I deleted your duplicate post -- I kept the one that had the extra question in it, which is something I want to get back to later. Unless Sherri does if for me again! :-D

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

Terry, I sure don't know much about the witch and witchcraft reference material, but a whole lot of our history as a country was perverted and whitewashed by people and when you try to teach the truth it is called "revisionist history". I have all sorts of letters written by my ancestors that conflict with history as taught when I was a child. Reference books are only as good as the writers and what is "referenced" is certainly not always the whole truth.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

Marcia, in Jim-Bob's defense, I most recently made a reference to "hooters" in a thread I posted, it WAS there primarily for Jim- Bob's and Wildmans's "enjoyment" however, (laughing wildly, unable to even type.....)

Sherri, that worshipping skyclad was always a problem when I was a praciticing pagan, where, oh where, to put my pocketknife.......

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

My apologies for contributing to a bit of thread drift but has anyone seen this poem before? Pretty funny, IMO.

Boob Poem
Author Unknown

For years and years they told me,
Be careful of your breasts.
Don't ever squeeze or bruise them.
And give them monthly tests.

So I heeded all their warnings,
And protected them by law.
Guarded them very carefully,
And I always wore my bra.

After 30 years of astute care,
My gyno, Dr. Pruitt,
Said I should get a Mammogram.
"O.K." I said, 'let's do it."

"Stand up here real close" she said,
(She got my boob in line),
"And tell me when it hurts," she said,
"Ah yes! Right there, that's fine."

She stepped upon a pedal,
I could not believe my eyes!
A plastic plate came slamming down,
My hooter's in a vise!

My skin was stretched and mangled,
From underneath my chin.
My poor boob was being squashed,
To Swedish Pancake thin.

Excruciating pain I felt,
Within it's vise-like grip.
A prisoner in this vicious thing,
My poor defenseless tit!

"Take a deep breath" she said to me,
Who does she think she's kidding?!?
My chest is mashed in her machine,
And woozy I am getting.

"There, that's good," I heard her say,
(The room was slowly swaying.)
"Now, let's have a go at the other one."
Have mercy, I was praying.

It squeezed me from both up and down,
It squeezed me from both sides.
I'll bet SHE'S never had this done,
To HER tender little hide.

Next time that they make me do this,
I will request a blindfold.
I have no wish to see again,
My knockers getting steam rolled.

If I had no problem when I came in,
I surely have one now.
If there had been a cyst in there,
It would have gone "ker-pow!"

This machine was created by a man,
Of this, I have no doubt.
I'd like to stick his balls in there,
And see how THEY come out!

Author Unknown
Submitted by Kara

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

Oh Jimbo...........you are so bad!!! ;>)

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

For what its worth the swastika has been in use in India as a symbol for many millenia. It was also know as Thors hammer from Norse mythology.

-- Anonymous, November 30, 2001

In Leavenworth KS huh? Well, its nice to know what the neighbors are doing. I live just down 7 Hwy from Leavenworth in Bonner Springs!

-- Anonymous, December 02, 2001

Okay, although I have never had one of these, and never intend to, I have talked to enough people who have to empathize, so to add to Jimbo's "boob poem" theme, I dragged this out of my humor file........ THE MAMMOGRAM

This is an x-ray that has its own name because no one wants to actually say the word breast.

Mammograms require your breasts to do gymnastics. If you have extremely agile breasts, you should do fine. Most breasts, however, pretty much hang around doing nothing in particular, so they're woefully unprepared. But you can prepare for a mammogram right at home using these simple exercises:

Exercise 1: Refrigerate two bookends overnight. Lay one of your breasts (either will do) between the two bookends and smash the bookends together as hard as you can. Repeat three times daily.

Exercise 2: Locate a pasta maker or old wringer washer. Feed the breast into the machine and start cranking. Repeat twice daily.

Exericise 3: (Advanced, requires a partner) Situate yourself comfortably on your side on the garage floor. Place one of your breasts snugly behind the rear tire of the family car. When you give the signal, partner will slowly ease the car into reverse. Hold for five seconds. Repeat on the other side. :)

-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001

Yeah, that's about it . . . >:-( Don't forget to mention, doing it all again because it didn't come out right the first time! double >:- (

-- Anonymous, December 07, 2001