What is the best "pocket gun"?greenspun.com : LUSENET : Freedom! self reliance : One Thread
After a long debate with the local's I've decided to bring the question to the knowledgeable here. "What is the best pocket gun?" So far I've been advised that the bigger the better.
Somehow I've always thought that the only gun that'll save you is the one on you when you need it. My neighbor swears by his Walther ppk in 32-auto, my brother thinks in terms of a Springfield 1911 .45 auto, My wife is partial to a Feg .380. Me I like a Colt Gov. Mod 380 or S&W 38-snub. The local preacher carries a Davis Arms Derringer in 32-auto. One of my brothers co-workers still carries a FIE 25-auto. That's a pretty big difference in calibers.
So What do you think is the best pocket gun? Why?
-- Kenneth in N.C. (email@example.com), December 03, 2001
I go w/ the bigger is better idea. .38 special would be the smallest I'd want. W/ a +p round it has good enough knockdown power and won't just p*** them off. I worry about aim and accuracy during stresstime. At least w/ a big caliber, if you hit somewhere in the trunk it's at least likely to stop the advance. Hollow point or a ballistic type round that's going to expand and not penetrate (= more shock power)is a good idea when you aren't target practicing too. .357 is my personal favorite. Cheepie .38special practice rounds make it affordable (well, kinda anyway) and also fit the .38sp that the wife feels comfy with. My 2cents worth.
-- John in S. IN (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 04, 2001.
If I thought I was going someplace that called for a "pocket gun" , I wouldn't go there. A good double barrel shotgun at home and horse sense about where your going to is best. If I had to pack a pocket gun, a hollowpoint .22 lr mag derringer.
-- Jay Blair in N. AL (email@example.com), December 04, 2001.
Jay, how right you are!......why head into harm's way?
Kenneth, you know the caliber thing will be debated on & on & on...
That said...that little ole 22 sure beats nothing!!
-- Jim-mi (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 04, 2001.
Well I like the 7 round semi auto 22 pistol. Literal pocket, not too heavy, and a 22 is a much better answer than no anwer whatsoever.
-- Doreen (email@example.com), December 04, 2001.
Why not go the whole hog and get a pocket battleship?
-- john hill (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 05, 2001.
John Hill Where can I buy a pocket battleship? Hmmm or a working Star Trek type phaser?
Jay: I know a lady that went to her office at 7:00 p.m. at night. When she turned on the lights she was attacked by an intruder. Her Beretta Tomcat 32-auto was all that saved her. Her Office is downtown and on the "good side" of town. I hope that you and anyone else that feels like you never encounters a "bad" situation. But according to the latest reports by our Government your odds of a violent encounter has risen to 1 in 3. Rapes are up, house breaking/entering are up 35%, robbery in mall parking lots are at an all time high. I know some here live in very small towns. Maybe it's safe where you are. I thought here in our small town it was safe. This year we've had 17 murders, 100 robberys, 45 rapes and over 300 assaults. Thats in a town with population less than 10,000. To me thats scary.
Hey I like a 22 too. In fact I own several. And yes a 22 or 25 is better than nothing. A cool head is your best weapon.
I guess I was just talking to ya'll like I would any group of friends.
-- Kenneth in N.C. (email@example.com), December 05, 2001.
anyone here own any guns by taurus? I am purchasing my own first gun, and am looking at a taurus 5 shot SS .357mag revolver with a 2 inch barrel. Would this be a good buy? The price is very reasonable, and it is from a trusted friend.
-- Clancy (firstname.lastname@example.org), June 18, 2002.
IMHO, and many others, the Seacamp is the finest pocket gun available.
-- Brian Harvey (email@example.com), July 04, 2002.
Sorry, I hit post too soon. The BEST firearm is the one you have with you when you need it.
-- Brian Harvey (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 04, 2002.
small 25 autos are not good in a rush situation. the slide can do as much damage to your hand as the front end may do to an assailant. My Dr. told me he hates to work on 22 wounds because they wander in the body so baddly due to their low mass. A good snub 38 with +P for very close range with hollow points will be a good reliable choice. There are better technical calibers for longer work. H&K makes no bad models.
-- mike carlyle (email@example.com), July 06, 2002.
I recommend a .25 and I suggest that you practice with it as the value of a .25 is accuracy in aim. This hg will fit in most pockets, your spouse can use it easily and should have one for herself as a back up piece. Accuracy is the key point. Size should not be an issue, just what you do with is the value. Accuracy is paramount. A snub .357 would work as well, you can use .38 rounbds for target practice and it has a decent stopping power, so you get two calibers for the price of one; not a bad deal eh?. Again accuracy with aim is what gives the weapon it's value, no matter what size caliber it is. Accuracy and a few extra mags. And if you want a Hg that can be used by your spouse as well as you, that is of a larger caliber then try a .40. I would think that you can rent one to see if you like it. That's my million dollar answer for you. have a good day.
-- jonathan (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 06, 2002.
Handgun Stopping Power : The Definitive Study by Evan Marshall (Author), Edwin J. Sanow (Author) is a great book; they do impressive research. Opinions are grounded in the data from police reports. (not anecdotal BS)
I was surprised with the data in the tables in the back, because it shattered some hard core notions I had, but you really can't argue with numbers. According to the book, the gun is important but there is a HUGE difference in the rounds that go through it. Some rounds through a .380 were more damaging than my beloved .38 OR my new 9mm.
By the same token, my Dad has been a cop for 30+ years, and his opinion is that ther more rounds fired into a bad guy, the less likely they are to keep coming, regardless of what the caliber is (volume is a good thing...)
My suggestion is this: find a firearm you like and are comfortable with, that fits your hand well. Go to the range and SHOOT A LOT. Be able to clear a fouled round or reload in your sleep. Then carry a caliber that is the most distructive for that firearm. Every 6 months, swap those rounds (shoot 'em) and put in new; I was told once that Gun Oil can foul a primer if you carry the same rounds for years (as most of us do)and although I'm not sure that this is true, better safe than sorry.
Hope this helps,
-- Maggie Ahrens (email@example.com), August 26, 2002.
Its been fun reading about what people choose as a "pocket gun". For myself, I chose a Kahr MK9 in 9x19mm. With Cor-Bon hollowpoints it will have adequate stopping power, yet recoil is light enough for quick follow-up shots. Its only 5.3" long and 4" high and holds 6 rounds in the magazine. The feel of the DAO trigger is excellent - I consider it to be on a par with a good double-action revolver. Most importantly, its very reliable with 200 rounds so far and not a single jam. Now that I'm past the 200-round break-in period, I plan to start trying hollowpoints.
-- Joe Gonzalez (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 04, 2002.
I carry a .22 LR 6 shot dual action 2 in. barrel. It's small, and concealable and in action gives no kick and since its so reliable I never have to worry about it.
-- Scott Bender (email@example.com), October 16, 2002.
If you want something small and usefull while still maintaining stoppoing power, I would choose a bazooka, but if you don't have a BATF license the government will frown upon you. Your best bet is a .25 auto semiauto: it maintains good acuracy, stopping power, and is cheap and has little recoil.
-- David Summers (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 15, 2002.
"I carry a .22 LR 6 shot dual action 2 in. barrel." Hollow points, of course. I concur. .22 ammo is as common as BBs. Revolvers don't leave incriminating litter behind. .22 cal. pistols are common and cheap. They will sink as fast as a $500 Glock. If you MUST shoot someone, DON'T WOUND THEM! ("I was mindin' me own business, I was, an' this crazy bloke shot me for no reason.) You want only one story: yours. Do I sound brutal? If you are going to carry a gun you better damn well be willing to be brutal.
-- anon. (no email@example.com), November 17, 2002.
I carry a NAA 5 shot .22WMR. It is smaller than a pack of smokes, weighs what my wallet does, and with CCI's TNT +V Hollow points it is very destructive for it's size. With a 1" barrel it comprimises accuracy for practical pocketing. Easy enough to hit a man sized target at 10 yards on the range but that is on the range. This gun is available with a 2nd cylinder for shooting .22 short, long, LR for really cheap practice. I keep 1 shotshell loaded as I have shot a few snakes at the fishing hole. Overall very compact, more stopping power than many .25 or .32 rounds, and simple revolver in single action. About $300 new.
-- Brad (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 29, 2002.
i purchase the baretta 32 tomcat stainless. it is a VERY reliable gun. best gun made.
-- joemac (email@example.com), December 15, 2002.
Doesn't anyone know the art of using a Machete for defense anymore.
Everyone wants a gun.COWARDS
-- Max (MaxT@yoohoo.com), December 15, 2002.
A better alternative I think is to pray to be spared from evil. Try soul travel to Heaven (I am a gifted guide)adn seek protection from the Holy Spirit while your soul is in Heaven.
-- Juan Magalang (firstname.lastname@example.org), January 10, 2003.
I just bought a thunder 380. I shot almost 100 rounds with it, no problems. It is small enough to fit in baggy pants or a jacket pocket or cargo pants. with corban hollow points it is rated approx. 70% in knock down. pray you don't miss when it's your life or your family's life some low life would try to take away for his own meager gain.
-- bubba (email@example.com), March 09, 2003.
personally i carry a Walther P22, it fires a .22LR. the grips can be changed in no time to fit any sized hand, it has nice volume 10rds per mag + 1 in the chamber. its deadly accurate espicially with follow up shots. all you have to do is point and hold steady and continue to pull the trigger till the clip is empty or the assilaint can no longer stand. its compact with a 3.5 in barrel and interchangable barrel up to 5 inches, comes standard with an accessory attachment under the barrel, has an adjustable site, and can be ordered on line or from a local gun shop for only 250$. not to mention it comes factory with a threaded barrel, the ammo is cheap and many diffrent kinds of ammo may be used to meet any given situation. shot shells, sub sonic ammo, Hollow points, and HV ammo
i would much rather have a gun and not need it, than need a gun and not have it.
any gun of any calibur is going to be deadly. stopping power is an important factor. but knowing how to use your gun in any given situation, is much deadlier than stopping power alone. go to the shooting range OFTEN. i go once or 2x a week.
things to look for in a Defense Pocket weapon: (1) accuracy (2) high ammo volume (3) how well you can control the weapon ie: rapid & accurate follow up shots on a target at variable distances (5) dependability (6)consealable (7) stopping power..
either way a couple shots to the head with a .22 is will stop an attacker just as well as a couple shots to the head of a 25, 357, or 45.
-- a kremin (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 19, 2003.
In my response to this I would like to remind everyone that a attacker may be on drugs, therefore the stories are true. When a person is on certain drugs they can appear to be unstopable. So in my opion I'd prefer a firearm with enough know-down power to kill an elephant...lol. I myself carry 2 pocket guns, one is a snub nose .44mag. S&W armed with HP. the other is a double barrel "side-by- side" .45lc or .410 The .44mag is a bit too much for some people, but I would recommend the .45lc/.410 double barrel in anyone. This handgun comes in several barrel sizes, from 1-1/2" up to 11", the price range on them run between $75 too $179. they also come in a single barrel model, which either in the 2" barrel near about fit in the palm of your hand. I rarely use the .45long colt rounds in this pistol"being that they are pretty expensive and hard to find around here" but 1 barrel with .410 00buck and the other barrel w/ a .410 slug will stop near about anything at close range.
p.s. aim for vital areas, "or if just wanna injure, go for the knees"
-- Robert (email@example.com), March 20, 2003.
Derringers,minirevolvers, .25's .32's are TOTAL bs. The first two lack the necessary speed into action and speed of repeathitting, and the last two have no more power than a .22 has, so why pay 20x as much for the ammo, hmm? The .32 still needs to be fired many times at the head,hoping to strike the temple, base of skull, nasal or eye cavities, so that it can actually penetrate to the brain. Doing so takes a lot of practice, so the 22 wins out in the "mouse gun" category. The 357 is way too big and heavy for pocket carry (muchless the .44. The airwt versions of the .38 are way too hard to control in rapidfire, much less the mags. The steel framed Kahrs are too heavy, but the PM 9 mm Kahr, in polymer compact format is pretty good. 6" long, 16 ozs, single stack, and it offers good power and control when loaded with Cor Bon 90 gr jhp's.
-- Bill Nicholson (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 10, 2003.
Boys !!!! the best is the smith 649 bodyguard..the first round is my homemade CCI shot cap filled with 8 steel BB's and some #7 to keep them together....the rest are silvertips +P......I shot a pit bull from about 2to 3 feet..the shot load stopped his attack..and I didnt have to kill him..would work on humans just as good...did a little balistic tests and my BB mix up to 7feet is plenty stong...may even load the first 2 rounds...try it on some old magazines...you'll be shocked at the damage....like a mini shot gun....in case of something going wrong in the dark...you may save the life of some drunken neighbor...remember shit happens
-- bill johnson (email@example.com), April 24, 2003.
I carry 3 pistols depending on the time of year a .22cal mini- revolver and .25cal berreta semi for summer time carry and a .40cal Glock 27 for the winter. It all depends on comfort and concealability or you will quit carrying your gun.
-- Chris Marshburn (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 04, 2003.
Boys my personal favorite for twenty some years was a H&R 9shot 22 snub.Man I never felt alone or outgunned with that little roscoe in my pocket.I shot it so much and often that I never worried about any weaver stance. No Masaad Ayoob stuff! all that nonsense.A good man with a good 22 like the H&R snub or High Standard snub was plenty of gun.I hope old Ayoob is a out there.All that fancy sillyness.You ever seen or read his story's in them gun books.I could put 8 out of ten shots in a 10inch pie plate with one hand at 15 feet every day....and PS...don't ever think that the 22 won't put you down..Buddy the 22 is the best protector....besides by 18inch 12 guage double..stevens 311
-- bill johnson (email@example.com), May 05, 2003.
WoW I really learned a lot from your answers. Seems ya'll are just like our shooting group We all agree being armed is best just not on the what with. Here's what I've learned this past year. A 25 auto with regular ammo will not penetrate a hub cap or a skull. However it will have the same effect as a ball bat to the head. A 22 pistol will jam (semi-auto) if rounds have been in your hot sweaty pockets for days and you forget to change out the ammo. Rattlesnakes are still dangerous even if you fill them full of lead and most importantly "If you leave your "mouse" gun at home You Will Need It on that Trip"!
Oooh yeah my BIL learned that a Beretta in 25 auto Is a deterrant to a bully/robber in a dark parking lot. Saved his life and the bully/robber. The loud bang, flash of light from the muzzel made the would be bully/robber piss his pants and run off.
Still would like a Phaser pistol for concealed carry. :o)
-- Kenneth in NC (firstname.lastname@example.org), July 06, 2003.
This is the question to which there is no RIGHT answer! The BEST pocket gun is the one that feels right to you and that you can EASILY hit the target AGAIN AND AGAIN in all cases. It must be small for easy of carry, it muse be thin as not to "print" itself in your pocket, it must be light because a pocket gun does NO GOOD unlessit is IN YOUR POCKET and it must pack enough punch to get the job done. As a Police Officer most confrontations are within 15 ft so you MUST KNOW your firearm and how it shoots. And last but not least dont carry unless you have the ability to use the weapon when the chips are down. My choices for the ultimate pockets are the Glock 23 in .40 or if your a little smaller the Kel Tec in .380 I have had MANY and these are the 2 of which have been the best.
-- C. Simonds (Simondsperf@juno.com), July 30, 2003.
I carry a Glock 19 9mm... nice size, good accuracy, hasnt jammed on me ever and its plenty of "stopping power", but then again is you shoot often, stopping power whould matter as much.
-- Dann in NH (NotTellinYa@hotmail.com), August 19, 2003.
Well I've been doing some intense research on the subject of which is the best gun to carry and it really depends on what aspect you look at. 22LR is very popular and in fact kills more ppl than any round out there. Probably because the guns are so inexpensive and ammo is cheap and people underestimate their power. I carry a gun in the mountains for mountain lions and bear. I'm a 45 ACP fan myself and carry a Taurus Millenium Pro. It is reliable, accurate, easy to shoot, fits my hand well, and is the highest capacity (10+1), lighest weight one out there. I wear baggy jeans and carry it in my front pocket, in a belly band or in my winter coat pocket. It's a bit large for summer carry and I would like to get something smaller (that's why I'm researching the subject). I really like the Taurus P22 in chrome/pearl/gold! Or the Kahr PM9 but these guns don't fit my hand well since I have a large grip. I don't trust a small revolver rolling around in my pocket. I prefer to rack when I draw. I think 25 ACP is too weak and have heard stories of people shooting trees and the lead just bouncing back at them! Don't forget that if you want to get a loud 'crack' when you fire you have to move that bullet past the sound barrier of 1100 feet per second. I do have a Walther P22 for backup but is still a bit large for what I want. I think overall, for my second gun, to backup my 45, I'm thinking of a Kel-Tec P3AT (380 Auto). It's relatively cheap, only 6 ounces, and is VERY small. Not the prettiest thing I've ever seen though!
-- ~BadddDoggg~ (email@example.com), December 11, 2003.
Im to young to leagally cary a pistol, but if i were i would prolly cary one of the glow i think model 37 in 45 auto. very thin very light weight and a great shooter. you have less magazine capacity than with say a 380 or a 9mm but with a 45 you dont need extra rounds. I was carrying one the other day on my deer lease and shot a hog right behind the ear, he went down with one shot and i was sold on the gun.
however if your recoil sensitive then i would go with a 22mag revolver, or a snub 357. both have great stoping power and are fairly easy to find.
also i was wondering if anyone has every carried a desert egal for self defence seems like a lot of gun yes. but with that 50cal bullet and minimal recoil due to the guns weight it seems like a great choice.then again you would be lugging around a very heavy gun so mabey its not a good choice.
I personally think the most important thing when carrying for defence is to be calm. know your gun and how it shoot. and be able to get into the mind set that you may have to kill someone, once you can handel that then you will be fine no matter what situation arises.
-- Robert Delephimne (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 03, 2004.
I have a Kahr Arms PM9. Reliable, accurate and concealable. However, if you are not the tallest person, something smaller would be in order... Look at some of the handguns from North American Arms, at naaminis.com The 2" Black Widow (.22mag) WILL be my next purchase... By the way, my house gun is a Taurus 4" .357mag, my most dependable and trusted gun.
-- Steve T. (email@example.com), February 12, 2004.
The 22 caliber Baretta is the best pocket pistol a person could ever own. Too many pros to mention them all but does include price, size, definite personal protection, fits in your pocket, and deadly accurate especially at medium and shorter ranges. All around great gun!
-- Joe Gunn (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 14, 2004.
The best weapon is one you can use well and present with confidence. Moreover, your mindset is critical; just like dealing with a dangerous animal you can't show fear even if you are feeling it.
-- Binky Jones (email@example.com), February 15, 2004.
Hi! This is something that veries A LOT from person to person... What I'm telling u is just my personal opinion...
The best pocket gun is the one you can handle... The bigger the caliber, the more u have to practice with it(specially with small guns). If u buy a 45, u'd better be training every week... And if u do have to use in a stress situation, you'd better not miss because de recoil will give the bad guy a lot of time to use his gun.
I would go with a Taurus .40. Cheap, reliable and well-balanced between stoping power, portability and recoil.
-- Eduardo Silveira (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 18, 2004.
for my applications I carry a Baretta 950BS in .25acp . I know ,all the readers just said "What an idiot". let me explain, I carry in the strong side front pocket in a unc.mikes holster to keep it clean and the magazine is stoked with "MAGSAFE' pre-fragmented rounds. my 2nd mag is loaded with "PPS Copper/berrilium" Hollowpoints for more penetration through bone. and my third mag is full of "Hornady Gold dot Hollowpoints. I do not feel "underarmed" or "outgunned. I have spent the money to assure that these rounds all have the same point of aim and according to the Strassbourg tests all the ammo described are the "Best loads for the caliber. I know that my "Mouse gun"WILL do the deed if called upon.
-- Mick Ladner,Sr. (email@example.com), February 26, 2004.
Like the rest of you large cal. is better. However, where do you put it if you weigh 100 lbs. Also, while you deal with the recoil of a large cal. the small one has shot all its rounds with no aiming just point and shoot. I maintain that an attacher with 7-9 rounds of a small cal. is going to have a heck of a time catching me. My wife and I each carry barreta's, with no jams. We have shot well over 1000 rounds in each. She carries the .25 and I carry the .32. With the large cals. where do you put them when your wearing shorts and you live in the south.
-- don mcgriff (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 08, 2004.
very interesting and still no "correct" answer...I need to carry because of my business...I have fired several of my friends guns and I really liked the Colt Jr. 25acp / FIE Best however I keep coming back to what people say and that it really lacks any stopping power....however it fires so well, I hit the target well, and in firing never had any jams etc, the weight feel are nice just to slip into a pocket... I could also go back to a S/W bodygard small 38 revbut then I am thinking I might not always carry it.... any other thoughts / options...email me if you have any ideas??? PS: I enjoyed this thread...
-- Jon (email@example.com), May 03, 2004.
Too many people are obsessed with having a big hole at the end of their gun barrel. I call it the "penis syndrome". Those same guys like loud boats and fast cars.... bigger and louder makes them feel like a tough guy. Get over it. Here's the deal. Of course I would rather have a .45, .40 or 9mm in a self defense situation... and I carry my 9mm when I can. But those guns are big and bulky and you WILL leave them at home sometimes because of what you might be wearing on a particular day (I know because I have had a CCW for years)... and a gun in your night stand does you NO good when you are at Walmart. Does anyone really think a mugger is gonna look down the barrel of your .25 ACP and say "gee, that's only a little .25, I'm willing to take a few of those in my chest"?! Nobody want to get shot with ANYTHING! A gun is a gun is a gun and will stop an attacker when brandished 99% of the time. I know a guy who had his car surrounded by some local thugs in a bad part of New Orleans years ago. He rolled down his window and fired a few rounds of his .25 in the air and he said people were diving behind trash cans and could NOT get out of his way fast enough. Such is the power of a brandished gun of ANY caliber! I mean think of it this way - a .25 does not knock a man backwards like a .45, but it does punch a quarter inch hole about 10 inches into a man's body. Would you consider getting stabbed 10 inches deep by a quarter inch piece of steel rod a minor incident? Hell no! Reliability and ease of carry are the two main things you need to worry about. Do your research. Find a totally reliable gun that you like and carry it ALL THE TIME. Oh... and vote Republican or you won't have a choice in this matter anyhow. Semper Paratus.
-- Bill (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 24, 2004.
that last dude nailed it.
-- will (email@example.com), June 21, 2004.
Just reread this thread. Hmmm ok I agree with big caliber for knock'm down in fact I own a 1911 clone 45 auto BUT it won't fit in my pocket. Since I started this thread I have bought a Kel-Tec 32 auto and a NAA mini-revolver in 22 mag. I'm still waiting on that perfect pocket gun. While gold panning I was glad to have the NAA loaded with shot shells. It put the water moccasin down in one shot.
I believe that Kel-Tec should make a 22LR version of their small pistols. This would make an excellent Pocket Gun. :o)
-- Kenneth in N.C. (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 05, 2004.
No, .45's don't knock men down. 12ga shotguns can't reliably knock men down. They COLLAPSE when shot (sometimes) but they are NOT knocked backwards. Nobody has enough personal experience to amount to anything at this subject, but I"ve shot hundreds of animals, with modern ccw pistols and loads. See, it's pretty commonplace to get 6 straight heads or tails in as many coin tosses. Who's shot 6 men in the chest with a pistol, hmm? It takes 20 coin tosses to estabilsh the true 50-50 probability of a heads or tails coin toss (ie, pure luck which you get) A stop or a failure to stop is the same "two possible outcome" sort of thing. So it takes 20 shootings of men (in the chest) to know that a given load's performance wasn't just luck. (or it takes 12 straight successes or failures, at least)
I can tell you, tho, you do NOT want the slowness of having to cock a dinky little hammer on a derringer or mini-revolver. Such a thing is WAY too slow, and likely to be fumbled when you are under lethal stress. A .25 hits no harder than does a .22lr. A .32 hits so little harder that it is meaningless. .25's and .32's are semirimmed cases. they tend to "rimlock" in the mag, when you use hollowpoint ammo. Nobody shoots either a .25 or a .32 enough to KNOW if it's durable or reliable. Hell, it's commonplace to fire 500 rds per visit to the range with a .22. Very few guys will fire 500 rds of .25 or .32 in 5 years.
-- John Russell (email@example.com), December 26, 2004.
why just bip a man on the nose, or make him grunt, when you can make him collape, hmm? The 16 oz Kahr PM9 9mm is smaller and lighter than the .38 snubs that millions have pocket carried over the past 40 odd years. I once forgot I had my .38 snub on, and walked into a Police Dept with it in my front pants pocket. that's small and lw enough, in my book. So why settle for less power? Nobody with much real combat-experience considers the 9mm or the .38 to be mcuh of a manstopper. 4 out of 4 .38 special, Plus P 158 gr lhp's, from a 4" barrel, at a range of 3-6 ft from the muzzle, failed to penetrate the skulls of Platt and Matix in the FBI shootout in Miami, 1988
-- John Russell (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 26, 2004.
I've seen many a small critter run off with a .45 military ball rd thru it's chest. Such a load is nothing much. A Stinger, from a .22 rifle, hits just as "hard" as does such a .45 load, and animal tests will prove me to be correct. The .45 has just had a lot of bs war stories told about it, that's all.
The .45 ACP was never used against the Filipino Moro's. The Philippine Insurrection was ENDED before the 1911 got to the Far East. The .45 revolvers did not stop the Juramentados. Neither did the 6mm Lee or 30-40 Krag rifles, unless they hit the head. That's a historical fact, not just a war story.
-- John Russell (email@example.com), December 26, 2004.