Well, it had to happen. Our first real conflict in eight years of operating the sanctuary. I do need advice. Long story short: A lady called me in August to ask us to take a pregnant pony and her year-old filly. The woman lost her job and had to down-size her farm. We took in the pony and the daughter, with a verbal agreement (I know, I know, first mistake!) on three things. First, that we would not seperate mama from her daughter, as they are very bonded. Second, that we would not "work" the ponies, but only keep them as pets. And third, that if the unborn foal was a black spotted colt, the lady wanted it back. All went well for several weeks. On 9-25, a pure white filly was born. The lady visited twice and then never again. Did not respond to my e-mails, either, in which I reported to her how the trio were doing, etc. She basically just seemed to have lost interest, which was okay, as it frequently goes that way. We had a couple conversations prior to her dropping out of the picture, in which she alluded to possibly wanting the baby even though it was not a black spotted colt. I kinda blew her off, since it would be months before the baby was ready to wean, anyway. Just figured we'd have plenty of time to deal with that later. Then, suddenly, a week ago I got an e-mail from her, saying that I should "prepare myself" becasue she planned on taking the baby! I e-mailed back that I really hoped she would change her mind, since the three ponies are EXTREMELY bonded, and the family should not be broken up. I even offered to buy the baby. She said nope, she wanted the baby. I then told her that if she really had to have the baby, then she would have to take back all three ponies, because I would not be responsible for breaking up the family. She said okay, she'd take all three ponies back. Then, I got to thinking. If she did take all three back, I'd basically have boarded these ponies for free for about 5 months! I called around and got an idea of the fees. I then prepared a statement and e-mailed it to her, informing her that she could pick up the ponies when she had $1500 cash for me, for boarding. Of course, she objected to my proposition. We e-mailed angrily for a day or so, then stopped. Sunday morning, she pulls up to my house with a big horse trailer and a state cop, and jumps out of her truck with an armfull of halters and lead ropes, all set to load up the ponies. She AND the cop both tried to buffalo me into believing that it was a foregone conclusion that she would be able to take the ponies. The cop was a real jerk, actually, and almost had me believing that they could do this. Finally, I simply asked if I had a right to refuse to allow them on the property, and he reluctantly admitted that yes, I could do that. He then took my name, b-day, etc. and then they all left! It was very strange. OK, so my questions are: first, is the fact that she never gave me the registration papers significant? Do registration papers indicate ownership? The ponies were given to me, not sold. No paperwork was exchanged. Second, if no boarding arrangments were discussed, and no possibility of the ponies being returned or taken back was discussed, is it reasonsable (legal?) to ASSUME that boarding fees will be a factor if the return of the ponies becomes an issue later? In other words, no one keeps someone else's horse for free, and then simply gives it back upon request with no compensation, right? There's an assumed financial factor, correct? The ball's in her court, since she'll have to file the complaint, hire an attorney, etc. I guess I'm just waiting to see what she does next, and I'll do something if I'm served papers. Sorry this is so long, but I really would appreciate input from someone who has been in a similar situation.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), December 18, 2001

Answers

Sorry don't have an answer , but boy people stink {nice word used}.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@hotmail.com), December 18, 2001.

I don't have an answer, either, but it seems to me YOU own the ponies the minute they were loaded onto your truck and taken home, with the stipulation that she would get the foal if it were the black spotted colt. Heck of a difference between white filly and black spotted colt. When that filly hit the ground it seems like your full responsibility towards that woman was finished. The sign on your farm gate says animal sanctuary, not boarding stable--this woman seems to want it both ways. I'd say she has no leg to stand on at all.

However, if you just look at it from the point of view that the animals have been taken care of for the last five months and might have suffered hardship otherwise, well, maybe your job is done for these animals and you could let them go back to her. It's not like you make money on them, right? I mean, you wouldn't get the $1500 if you continued to keep them would you? And once they are gone you will have room for other needy animals. Something to think about doing, anyway. I know it would grind the ____ out of me to let her get away with it, but it's a lesson well learned and you sure won't let it happen again. Sure wish I had some answers for you. Here you are being nice to people and then they do this to you. Hope it turns out ok for you.

-- Jennifer L. (Northern NYS) (jlance@nospammail.com), December 18, 2001.

What does your state laws and your lawyer say; this is where this is going.

-- mitch hearn (moopups@citlink.net), December 18, 2001.

Shannon, please forgive the stupid question, but do you run a no-kill animal shelter? The name gives me that impression, for some reason. If so, I think once the animals were on your property they were yours to do with as you pleased.

I think the woman is being very selfish not to pay you. You did her a HUGE favor taking in those animals, otherwise they might have been what--sold, put down, whatever?

Gather your witnesses and keep copies of all your correspondence (email and paper)--I think it would be a great case for Judge Joe Brown or Judge Judy.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), December 19, 2001.

Boy, this one could be sticky! I had a friend who free leased a horse to another friend of hers with no written contract. The gal had the horse about a year and when my friend decided she needed the horse back the other lady claimed that she was owned board & training fees. I real mess & ended up in court! My friend had to post a bond to get her horse back and I believe she did end up paying some of the board, but not the training fees. In the end the lawyer fees and other costs were almost more than the horse was worth anyway.

The fact that the pony lady did not give you the reg papers may or may not mean a thing. In my state (CO) reg papers are not proof of ownership and a state brand inspection is the 'real' proof of who owns the horse. In my state you would probably be stuck giving the horses up if you do not have the brand inspection papers. However, if your state does not do brand inspection the reg papers could be used to show ownership. You have obviously learned your lesson about not using a contract! I won't even do a cash sale on a grade horse without one. One thing I can say is that I am not certain why you would be unwilling to 'break up' the horse family? Horses are heard animal and will always bond, esp mares to their daughters. And you will have to wean the filly sometime anyway. However, they will adjust fine after a few days if you seperate them. Does it really matter if the foal was the wrong color/sex? The gal obviously wanted it and you would have gotten to keep the other 2. Now you are trying to say that she should get nothing while you get 3. I don't agree with her dumping them on you, but you knew she was possibly interested in the foal. I think that could be the real sticky part.

-- ellie (elnorams@aol.com), December 19, 2001.

Guess i should say that i was trying to say that you could avoid a lot of possibly legal action & headache by just letting her have the foal. Of course, that is assuming that she will care for it properly. If she brought the ponies to you in bad shape that would be a different story.

-- ellie (elnorams@aol.com), December 19, 2001.

The old saying used to be that possession was nine tenths of the law. I wouldn't neccessarily count on that, I'd contact a lawyer, since laws governing livestock vary so widely from state to state.

It is very likely that this woman has discovered that she can get money for the filly and wants to do just that. When she said that she would take the animals back as a group, it is not unlikely that she would be selling the other two off somewhere else either.

There have also been a good number of scam artists in recent years who show up at boarding stables and the like with a hard luck story (can't afford to keep the horse, big divorce, or any other big boo- hoo that will do the job) and wheedle the soft-hearted owner into taking the horses in, usually because they are half starved. Usually they don't hear from the owner again until the horses are well fattened up again and up to date on shots, etc. at the boarding stable's expense, before showing up abruptly to 'reclaim' their animals. They often get away with the horses, and leave the stable owner to foot the expenses and move on to another victim. It's possible that she has just been scamming you.

I have had offers of 'free' horses a number of times with strings attached (such as they can come and ride the horse whenever they want. Yup, after I've paid to feed, vet, and shoe it, you get to ride whenever you want on my facility. I don't think so.) and I turn those down flat and give them the address of the hooved animal humane society where they can give up ownership to the horse. Horses with less strings attached are only accepted with the papers signed over to me -- even in the case of 'free' horses, it is a good idea to sign a piece of paper and pay a dollar for the horse. I haven't had to try it in court however, but in this case it's too late anyway.

I think you really need to start looking around for a lawyer ASAP (tomorrow morning). Also take pictures of the animals NOW if you haven't already in case you need to identify them if she shows up under cover of darkness and takes them. In most cases that I have heard voiced by other stable owners in our area, in cases such as this, it is usual (at least in our state) that a judge will require that the boarding stable be recompensed. Getting printed boarding rates from other facilities in your area to add to your case will help you get a decent figure in settlement at least if it goes that route, otherwise most judges have NO idea as to realistic costs in these cases.

Don't forget that most facilities that handle the foaling of mares charge extra fees for this, as well as a higher rate of board for mares with foals and don't underprice yourself on this. Chances are if you have to wrestle this woman over it, in worst case that the woman gets the horses back, but the judge awards you recompense, as long as you can prove what other facilities charge, it helps your case.

-- julie f. (rumplefrogskin@excite.com), December 19, 2001.

I would just give her the foal. That was part of your agreement when you took in the ponies, and I don't think color is a reason to not give it to her. You did say you would give her the foal, and when she contacted you about picking it up, you tried to talk her out of it. Then you told her to take all 3 back, and did not mention money. Seems to me you either give her the foal, or all 3, for free. If this was all in emails, she probably has a copy.

Lots of folks around here sell the foals at weanling age, so the new owners can bond with it. Foals don't stay with their moms for life. I would tell her you are sorry, and tell her you will give her the foal. People come on hard times, not really by their own choice, I feel sorry for her having to give up her ponies. The foal is just now weaning age, it wasn't old enough before to take it.

When she gets the foal or you take it to her, first, make her sign something saying the others are yours now and she has taken ownership of the foal as per agreement. Hope it works out.

-- Cindy in KY (solidrockranch@msn.com), December 19, 2001.

I've never ran into this situation, I've always been very careful to get everything in writing, except one free lease with a friend of my oldest daughters that was going to college--it worked out but I ended up purchasing the horse.

I do know that registration papers do not mean ownership, at least in NYS. Like Julie said, most facilities will not take a mare in foal so price your board accordingly. Most facilities don't differinate between horses and ponies either so find out what the board is in your area, add to it reasonable costs for foaling out the mare and make sure you consider all three ponies. Gather your receipts for worming, supplements, grain, hay, shoeing, and any Vet care. Were the animals in poor condition when you received them? Did you have them Vet checked when they arrived at your farm? If they were, have the attending Vet write up a narrative letter regarding their condition. As far as I know most judges will at least consider a verbal agreement.

I believe, not positive on this, that since the Officer of the State told you that you didn't have to release the ponies you don't have to release them without a Court Order signed by a Judge. I feel that since the ponies were given to you, with stipulations, and you followed the stipulations to the letter, she is trying to get out of your original verbal agreement you can legally charge board. Most attorneys will have a free inital consultation, check the yellow pages for one that offers this, call and explain the situation.

Good luck in this unfortunate situation.

Stacy in NY

-- Stacy (KincoraFarm@aol.com), December 19, 2001.

Jennifer:

Although much of what you say is true, I do think it would be very unfair of this woman to expect the care that has been given to these animals should be for free. I know Shannon well and they go to great expense to take care of these animals (much of it is from their own pocket and they personally go without a lot in order to care for these animals properly). Shannon and her family have put funds in to caring for these three horses (farrier, feed, vet) since the horses were turned over to the sanctuary. No, keeping the horses will not put $1500 in to Shannon's pocket (the $1500 will not go in to Shannon's pocket anyway.....rescue is not a money-making venture), but who out there is in to taking care animals for people for free? I certainly wouldn't! Even the animals that are able to be adopted out require an adoption fee.....this money goes to help offset the funds needed to care for the animal while it was at the sanctuary or to help out the other animals that will inevitably follow....rescue is a never-ending revolving door (a VERY expensive revolving door). No, board was not discussed originally. These horses were not brought to the sanctuary for boarding....they were turned over to the sanctuary. The situation has now changed and I believe it is only fair that Shannon ask that if the horses are to be taken back that she be compensated for their care.

This person was also not interested in assisting Shannon in paying for the vet bills, vet or farrier care of the foal when it was born and has been unresponsive to Shannon's updates of the foal's progress. I've also had dealings with this woman as she wanted me to take the sire of this foal (she claims she needs to reduce the number of mouths she has to feed and just doesn't like him), but I refused as I just didn't trust her (this was even before the situation started with Shannon). I know Shannon has leared a valuable lesson about getting things in writing, but its sad that it was a lesson that even needed to come up.

-- Lisa (lambrose@summitpolymers.com), December 19, 2001.

Cindy:

You say that color is not a reason to not be willing to give the foal back to this woman, yet the agreement was regarding color to begin with. The woman wanted to reserve the right to take the foal if it was a black, spotted colt. As I see it, the foal is not a colt, is not black and not spotted so according to the verbal agreement is that Shannon keeps the foal. Shannon is not a mean or "stingy" person. She truely feels that this foal is closely attached to her sister. This woman recognizes that the mare and sister (her first foal) are very bonded and has required that the two of them stay together for life. As this foal is closely bonded to the sister Shannon does not feel it fair to seperate the foal from her sister and if the sister goes with her than the mother has to go too (according to the woman's requirements). Although Shannon will be sad to see the three of them go she's willing to do that if its the best thing, BUT I don't see why she should have to be stuck with the feed, farrier and vet bills that have built up during the 5 months these horses have been cared for by Shannon. To expect that is very unfair.

-- Lisa (lambrose@summitpolymers.com), December 19, 2001.

I was in a similar situation last year. Free pony, no paper work, original owner wanted him back..... Julie F is right find a lawyer. I call quite a few animal rights places to see if they had a legal team. One place give me name and number of a local attorney that helped me. Not free, she did charge me less than the going rate but it did cost me around $1500.00 before it was all done. I would find out what you can do legally with this situation. I did pay to have a brand inspection done on our pony so I had some paper work to say he was mine. Reg. paper do not mean ownership. Our pony's papers was never switched from the people's name she bought him from. Do you have anybody that wittnessed the very first exchanged with the ponies? Keep all paper work. Do not e mail or talk to her until you have talk to a lawyer. Be prepared that she might sever you papers for replevin (give her back to ponies)Put up on evry gate NO TRESSPASING signs.Our situation ended good for us. We got to keep the pony. I did sign an agreement on a few points to make her happy and they were conitions my family could live with and it avoided going to court and possibly loosing the pony. Good Luck I will pray that things work out best for you and the ponies. Let us know what happens. Remember knowlegde is power. Learn everything you can about the legel system and don't let her bully you!

-- Pamela (pmsmith@hevanet.com), December 19, 2001.

Hi Shannon,

Boy oh Boy, do you have a problem. First of all, get a lawyer's advice if you want to keep the ponies. Many times you can pay an attorney to write a letter to the lady requesting payment for back board, vets fees, prenatal and perinatal care, farrier fees, etc. Use a reasonable fee (do not overcharge just because you sat up all night waiting for the baby, but do not undercharge either). My boarding fee for the above would have been: Pregnant mare: $200 per month including stall and full feed; Other pony: $150. per month full board. Once mare foaled: $7.00 per day for first 45 days, then $5.00 per day thereafter until foal was weaned. Upon weaning of foal, back to $150. per pony or a total of $450 per month for the three. Not included in that fee: vets or farriers, special supplements for the mare. That board was in 1992 when I closed my stable, so you can add a considerable inflation rate. Check with three of the stables (reputable of course) in your area. Get their prices and average the three. Present this cost to your attorney and have him write the lady a letter demanding payment for the five months board if she wants all three ponies back.

In my very humble opinion - this lady will probably badmouth you to hell and back and probably won't come get the ponies. To smooth over the situation, offer her the foal (does it really matter that it is not black spotted?) in return for full ownership (signed and delivered) for the other two. Have your attorney make the proposal to her in writing. He will know to send it certified. If she does not respond, then you have a choice of pursuit in court to gain full ownership or just give the animals back.

I will bet that one letter from your attorney and either she will back down and take the one colt, or you will get the full ownership complete with bill of sale. You can assess whether the lady will have the wherewithal to fight this in court. I don't know about your attorney, but ours charges 150 an hour. You might have to pay the attorney for a couple of hours of work, but I believe that if you get no response, your state may allow you to post notice in the local paper stating that she has abandoned the livestock and you are taking possession. (I had to do that once as a lady left a pony in my care and just disappeared and did not pay board). Our attorney sent a letter to the last known address and as she was no longer there, we then had to post a legal notice in the paper that she had abandoned the livestock. Something similiar may apply in your case.

However, in light of all this - I know you don't want to just free board these animals and you probably can't afford to. Can you afford a legal battle to retain custody? Or would you rather just get the board? If it is the board you want and you are willing to fight to get it, you have the option of suing in small claims court for a nominal fee. Usually that is a good option for amounts less than $5,000. Just be sure you have witnesses who are willing to come to court on your behalf, and that you have all receipts for expenses. If the lady doesn't appear, then you will have won by default. If she does, you can plea your case to a real judge.

After many years of dealing with horse people, I have only had a couple of bad situations like you have. In our state if you are boarding a horse and the owner does not pay board, you are legally obligated to keep feeding the animal until a court determines that the animal is yours. So the 10 day demand letter to the owner is followed by a public notice, and then all the evidence is presented to a judge who then deems the animal belongs to the boarder. This process takes about 60 to 90 days (more feed bills) before the boarder can take legal possession and then sell the animals for the back board. Unless the horse is a real doozy, the boarder generally gets stuck for most of the board as we generally try to work with owners for several months before we decide that we are getting stiffed.

I hope that you have witnesses to the fact or it is in an email that these horses were free - otherwise you have a "my word vs. her word" situation. I am in a similiar situation right now with one of our mares - my girlfriend gave me two mares over ten years ago. My girlfriend died this past summer and now her husband wants to come get one of the mares for his granddaughter. I have fed the horse for well over ten years, taken care of her feet, vetted her, etc. But I told him that if he really had to come get the mare, then I wanted full ownership (completed bill of sale) on the remaining mare. In other words, I am not going to fight about it. I don't think my girlfriend would approve of what he's doing - but then again, maybe she would want her granddaughter to have the horse, so I am giving the benefit of the doubt and releasing the mare to him. It will break the other mare's heart as these two were raised together from birth and have never been separated. They are now 14 and 15 years old. I agreed to keep them until death, but things change.

You may have to consider what will this lady do with these ponies, etc and could you use the money it will cost to fight for them for the benefit of your other animals.

good luck and let us know how it comes out,

-- Cindy (colawson@mindspring.com), December 19, 2001.

If this goes to court the judge will decide who the horses belong too. If he says the lady is the owner then you should get compensated for boarding and expenses etc.... I agree with previous posts document your expenses if it goes to court. Bring along other stables lists of boarding fees. You should not be expected to have watched these horses for free for the past 5 months. Personally, it sounds to me as if she gave ownership to you and they are all yours.

As someone that used to run a rescue I learned very quickly to have the owner sign a form reliquishing rights to the dog.

-- anita in NC (anitaholton@mindspring.com), December 19, 2001.