CAE question for Vickigreenspun.com : LUSENET : Dairygoats : One Thread
Vicki, you have mentioned sending colostrum in to some place(Pan Am?)to be tested for CAE. Is this more accurate than the blood test at WSU? What kind of false negatives or test negative but came up postive at a later time, have you seen with this testing method?
What I am wondering is whether I could draw some colostrum a couple days before the doe kids to see whether or not she can raise her own kids. I hate bottle raising. Also, I cannot understand how, a kid is supposed to get colostrum within 15 minutes of birth, yet the colostrum takes an hour to be heat treated! I guess most people stockpile it, but without a freezer I can't do that.
-- Rebekah (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 28, 2001
Hi just got in from Dallas, son was 10th in the nation at Nationals! NCA Cheerleading Nationals. Go Jake!
Yes I use and have used for years Pan American in Austin. WSU is fine for blood, problem is unless the virus is "active" it won't be in the blood. What is the number one mode of transmission of CAE? Colostrum! Why do you heat treat the colostrum? To inactivate the antibody or virus! So where would the test be most accurate for picking it up? The colostrum! We recently on the WSU site had a big brew-haha about this, problem is most of the info coming from folks is hearsay. I have tests that prove this works. WSU is the invogue site right now, and no I wouldn't use a facility who only uses AGID testing, but WSU is BY FAR not the only facility that utilizes ELISA!! And Pan Amercian uses ELISA. And bar none, Pan Amercian is more people friendly. Send in blood or colostrum in syringes, they don't care, yes they probably prefer blood tubes, and nice neat packages from the vet, but they love us anyway! They call and ask if their is a problem, bill you, call with results, will send tests back individually, like when the doe turned positive, I certainly didn't want my year end tests to show a positive doe! Especially since she was in quaranteen and not my herd name! So they resent me the tests with her on her own sheet! When folks tell you that this lab or that lab has bad tests, ask them for the proof, the paperwork never materializes, all labs are tested by APHIS, they wouldn't be in business, quite literally not allowed!!! to run tests if they weren't up to code. Though I have had a borderline test come back on one doe, with the colostrum test we have always had positive or negative. And ALL does test the same as their bloodtests later in spring. The colostrum test is best used as your first line of defense. We had a purchased doe with a negative blood test WSU at the breeder, routine herd testing, that then came back positive on colostrum at kidding, about 6 months later here at my farm. She then subsequently 12 weeks later tested positive on blood WSU. This is not some "I got took" story, but a reputable breeder who I have purchased from since. If my quaranteen and CAE prevention program hadn't been in place, even with this doe purchased from a friend, it could have been a diasaster for me! The doe lives happily at a new friends, who loves her CAE+ or not. I don't know about the false + or - routine, since I use prevention, colostrum and bloodtesting. I will send to WSU if it depends upon a sale, but I also charge 25$ above the sale price if she comes back negative, because WSU is a hassle!
Another great way to use tests is to pull blood on a kid or two in your herd. They should be negative, period! If they are borderline or suspect, than you have some CAE positive colostrum/milk being fed! This is an excellent way to do it when you purchase infants. If the folks are supposedly CAE negative, than this new kid, even if 8 weeks old should be negative, otherwise it has antibodies from CAE heat treated colostrum or pasturised milk in its system. Or worse yet, raw!
Babies need colostrum in the first 12 hours of life, certainly gives you enough time to treat it. Some multiples are barely getting their sea legs, especially when we had LaMancha's and those big 12 pound boys, to even nurse in 15 mintues! ;) But yes I do stockpile. The does of mine who kidded in July, their colostrum is heat treated and frozen in plastic soda bottles, for use on the March kids. All the colostrum from older does, that isn't used in March, is frozen for the next kids. I also sell alot of it. I also give it to new folks, or to people I am buying a doeling or buckling from, or getting one back. Keep it in a chest freezer that doesn't have an auto defrost and you can saftely keep it for a year if you only kid out once a year, even the Houston Zoo does this. Vicki
-- Vicki McGaugh TX (email@example.com), December 30, 2001.
Hi Vicki, thanks for replying! I can't freeze anything here except in the winter when everything is frozen (!), our fridge has a freezer box but it doesn't even keep ice cream frozen.
I have tested with WSU several times, sent in the blood myself at least twice and I never thought there was any problem. I alway test all the animals in the herd, buck, does, kids, everyone, because I figure that a kid could have CAE while her dam has sero-coverted back to negative. You know, my personal feeling is that I am much more likely to get widespread CAE in the herd by bottle feeding than by dam raising. BUT, with a recent outbreak of CAE in the herd ( from a purchased doe that was snatched at birth and fed heat treated colostrum and pasteurized milk), I want to be very sure that everyone in the main pen is still negative. It just seems like there is so much room for disaster with the bottle feeding and pasteurizing- I can't use a pasteurizer because we have solar power, all milk has to be pasteurized stovetop, this is a major hassle and an everyday deal. And if I slip up just one time, say the propane runs out part way through or something like that, or someone turns the heat down while I'm outside, all that work could be in vain if even one doe was positive ( though I only pasteurize milk from tested negative does). With the dam raising, it is usually just that does kids that get it, not the whole, entire lot! So I am trying to find a way to get back to the dam raising if it can be done safely with minmum risk.
Do you think that colostrum taken a few days efore the doe's due date would have the antibodies? Have you tested a lot of does this way? And have you had any come up positive later on when they once tested negative with Pan- Am? How long does it take for them to test it, ( how far in advance should I draw the colostrum and send it in, to be sure I know the results before the doe kids.) ? Sorry for so many questions!
-- Rebekah (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 30, 2001.
Hi Rebakah, I have never tested colostrum from before the kidding, mostly because only my oldest doe who gets terrible edema in her udder, is the only one I have milked before she kids. I just draw up the first colostrum, one squirt on the ground, the next squirts go for test. But I don't see how come the 1 week before would hurt anything. My oldest test I have here from Pan Am is 1992. So I would say at least a hundred test results. When we milked goat for sale milk, I didn't keep them negative. Their kids were snatched for resale, or for entrance into the show herd, but the milkers (mostly Lamancha's and crosses) were kept seperatly from my show herd, of Nubians and my middle daughters LaManchas, were milked first, and only their colostrum and milk fed kids, after it wasn't used anymore it was then used for sale, course they milked much less than the crosses did ;) 1-800-856-9655 is their number, I haven't used it in awhile so get back with me if it doen't work. I think the test run on Wednesday, so one day mail it on Monday, the results are about immediate, so have them call you with the results, then send the paperwork when it is ready, which is attached to the bill. 7$ last year. I have never had a pasturiser and wouldn't have one, the doe I bought that turned positive was part of a whole group, the pasturizer failed. I use two candy thermometers taped together and a large stainless pot. I see it so much differently, 12 weeks worth of work, bottle feeding and pasturising, and clean stock, tame stock for 12 years! From the beginning with my reputation riding on all of this, I have always done this part of the mangement myself, my goat kids were to starve rather than have someone else feed them, nobody fed the kids, unless I handed them the lambar to do it, only I heat treat or pasturise to this day. It does make sense to dam raise if you spend lots of time with the kids, or have lots of children to play with them, but I bet I spend less time out in the barn when it all comes down to it! Especially when it comes time for hoof trimming all them yearlings! Bernice knows that I was giving serious thought to dam raising this year. I went to a very well known Nubian breeders house who also dam raises, yes some of her girls were tame, but most where that wild eyed, ears raising, that yes she could touch but only with outstretched arms. Yes maybe some of it was because I was in the barn. All of that would hurt sales, my kids love everybody, though I do have a few older does who hate everyone but me, I think they know that when new faces come to the barn, someone leaves!! Vicki
I don't think anybody will convert back to negative. Once positive always positive least for us anyway. I do believe that does are passing CAE though negative on blood. If I was going to dam raise it would only be on tested negative does, which I raised with no breaks in management, from catching at birth all they way through weaning. The very best management tool you have is the negative blood tests of the does you have sold, probably the biggest stress your does will ever have. Vicki
-- Vicki McGaugh TX (email@example.com), December 30, 2001.
I'm a little behind here, been busy working on dog gone work work filling out Medicaid paperwork for their inspection this coming month YIKS! I can't believe I allowed myself to get suckered into this mess, but $ is $! LOL:):)
I test for CAE, but was really interested in Vicki's colestrom test information. I missed this apst yr for CAE with the move but its on the calendar for late spring. I plan on bottle raising the babies again this yr. In the past we dam raised the kids off the neg does, we only had 2 and they are both now deceased. I was so busy on our old farm with work that I even had the kids from those does nurse on the neg dams because it wa seasier.
then this yr we started bottle raising and got the lambar. now with 60-80 kids coming we definately can't bottle feed all with my schedule, so thats why our son and his wife and the 2 grandsons are coming. Our daughter in-law, who i never thought I would like (guess it was her love for goats that won me over) loves the babies and insisted that Josh join us in the madcapped dairy adventure as I call it lately! LOL:):0 But it was Josh many yrs ago that started us out on the road to here, he wanted a Nubian goat so badly when he was 10 for 4-H cause the kids in the neighboorhood where my hubby's homestead was had them. So I ended up falling in love, never had a goat before in my life til then.
Its a bit more work to bottle feed and heat treat the colestrom but if you do it saves a lot of work down the road. Besides, the kids are so much easier to deal with. There is a quick story i must tell about my valentine, she was 5th place sr kid at nationals las tyr and I was shocked. i was also shocked because the truth be know, she wa sdam raised and she had never been shown before and was sort of skiddish. She was sort of wild and we put her into the trailer and off we went. She really tamed down in the pen and was fine afterwards. But I would never want to go through that again, guess I am getting old *sigh*
-- Bernice (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 30, 2001.
Huh. I don't mind the dam raised kids, and it doesn't take but a day or two to get them to eat grain from my hand. After that the rest is easy! The biggest challenge is getting them to trust me again after I tattoo and disbud them- again and again and again. Hoping to perfect my disbudding skills the next time. :/
Now to be honest, they do not get sweet and lovey until they have kidded, but trimming hooves is no problem, kids or yearlings, as long as they're restrained! However, I can go up to all the does in my barn and grab the collar and handle the does. Some of the kids are friendlier than others depending on how well I like them (and thus, how much time I spent taming them!) They did well at the show, the only one they went to! I'm hoping to take some of them to the Nationals, I hope they'll do well there too.
-- Rebekah (email@example.com), December 30, 2001.
Well... had a few dam raised that were friendly, have one now who is a pest, so sweet and loving and follow ya all around! Hmmmm wonder if the skiddish behavior is related to my mean Alpine lines,
I too am going to nationals, good luck with your preparations. If ya ever need insights into showing at a nationals let me know, be glad to help. I didn't get back to you on your question on our e-mails about why i had to go to nationals, have to show, haven't shown in a competitive show and hope to bring back the magic of Valentine, yep, shes going to be there. But also because i sold a lot of semen from my bucks.
-- Bernice (firstname.lastname@example.org), December 31, 2001.