Questions About Building a Shed

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Ann and I will be buiding a resident friendly shed :< 0

Yes we will live in it for a couple of years.

I know that a square building will use the least materials, but I need to decide the most practical size to build.

We need one least 16' by 16', but would be more comfortable in one that was 20' by 20'. This size would also allow for the best solar gain. One consideration that I have, is keeping pests OUT! I will use screen and Hardware cloth to accomplish this where neccessary. We plan to build a slanted, flat roof, not a gable type.

My questions regard the placement of the posts, and type of floor/ foundation and post and beam sizes to use. We may well be getting our materials to the site by some primitive methods (dragging or pulling by winch on a sledge):<(

Are 2x4's strong enough for this (our city shed and house are built with them), and for a 20' by 20' size can 2, 10 foot beams be joined in a parallel run? Would/ can the beams be bolted to the posts? Are 2x4's strong enough for the beams, or are 2x6's or 2x8's a wiser choice?

I have a neighbor who sunk PT posts in concrete (we want to avoid PT as much as possible). It seems like I have heard of posts being set on top of a slab on metal "post rests" (Ann wanted me to call them "thingies" but I have my dignity).

Building a raised wooden platform seems like it would require hauling the least amount of weight up there, but also seems like it would entail more, and expensive beams, and I have a feeling that the gravel and concrete would cost considerably less. I'm thinking that renting an ATV to haul concrete materials might solve that problem.

If we go with a floating slab,( for a shed), does the gravel need to be below the frost line? If not how many inches of gravel are necessary, and is a 4" slab thick enough (there won't ever be a great amount of weight in this building). Would a 2" slab be way too thin?

-- Rick (Rick_122@hotmail.com), January 20, 2002

Answers

Rick, if you're going to live in this place for even a couple years and then convert it to a shed you really have two sets of needs here. If frostlines are a concern, make sure you put a footer down below that level. I might suggest a 4" floor of 4,000# PSI and a 24 x 24 building so you can use it as a garage later. Consider putting some styrofoam insulation on the outside of the footers and slab, too. That would allow you to efficiently run hot water heating through the floor. It'll be nice enough to live with and fine for keeping vehicles in the 50 degree range in the wintertime to prolong engine life, too. It's also a nice temp in the winter if you want to do some work in your shed/shop/garage. The 24 x 24 size will allow you to put two vehicles inside with room around them. The 4" slab will support them. If you can't or don't want to use clear span you can put in a bearing wall or supports with headers in the middle and still later use it for two vehicles or one and a nice shop area.

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), January 20, 2002.

We just finished building a 16X16 building..alot of what you do depends upon where you live...since we are in the deep South, we needn't concern ourselves much with snow loads on the roof, or frost heaves..My husband took down a 100+ year old barn and we used the lumber from that for this building..where are you located?

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), January 20, 2002.

Risk, your going to find that 16 X 16 gets real small real quick. Have you priced pre-fab sheet metal buildings? That small should be $2500.00 to 3000.00 complete, just bolt together in 2 days or so on your slab. Mental health experts recommend 450 sq. ft. per person miminum; 16 by 16 is only 256 sq. ft. totally sub standard for 2 or more people. You might pull it off, or you might be alone after a short while.

-- mitch hearn (moopups@citlink.net), January 21, 2002.

As to the posts and avoiding presure treated lumber, this is what we did. We dug deep post holes, then put 6" pvc down them and filled the pvc with concrete. The top of the PVC post footings were about 6" above grade. Immediately after the concrete was put in we inserted two long)12" or more" L shaped pcs of metal. They had two holes torched or drilled in them large enough to accomodate a good sized lag screw which we later used to attach to the posts. When the L was inserted into the wet concrete the short side of the L went into the concrete and about 6" of the L was above the top. You don't necessarily have to use PVC either. 6" stove pipe will work too. Basically its just a form for the concrete.

The use of 2 x 4's should be limited to wall studs as they're not strong enuf for use as floor joists or roof rafters. Another design consideration I'd think about is to design the bldg in increments of 8'. This will help to reduce scrap and waste.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 21, 2002.


John Rhaabe has the following web page. The forum is great and the archives have dealth thorougly with foundations. John freely responds to questions. Good site.

www.countryplans.com/bbs/index.html

-- charles (cr@dixienet.com), January 21, 2002.



First let me take the time to thank every one for their responses. Our homestead is located in Roane County West Virginia.

We will get a book on building construction. What would be considered a good slope for a flat roof, 60 degrees? We had planned to use a floating slab (gravel to the frost line) as a floor. Can post and beam be done without footers and foundation. Does a footer surround the entire building along the perimeter?

I have no Idea what this project will cost. Once we have decided on a size, we can begin to estimate what the materials might cost. We are going to do anything we can to minimize costs, as long as it doesn't leave the shed prone to fall down.

Gary, Re: 4000# PSI rating, are the psi given in specs on the bag? How does one insure that a concrete contractor is giving this good of a mix? Would a clear span be a span not touching a load bearing wall or support along the way?

Leslie we are hoping we can find some cheap lumber for siding. We have a 20 year old barn that we don't really intend to use, but it is in too good shape to take down for the lumber.

Mitch, 2500 dollars is more than we are hoping to spend.. Regarding mental health, I guess we'll have to take turns inside (ha ha). Actually we will spend much of the time out of doors, but I want it to be a pleasant space for us when we are inside.

Hi John. How deep is deep? My hole digger will dig 36 inches, maybe slightly deeper. The holes are about 8 inches wide to go that deep. Were the L's huge angle irons? It sounds like the short part of the L sat flat parallel to the diameter of the PVC, and the long part of the L was parallel to the length of the pipe. Is this the case? Do we still need to install footers using this type of post?

Charles: Rhaabe's site looks like it might be quite helpful, thanks.

-- Rick Roane County WV/Stranded in Suburbia (Rick_122@hotmail.com), January 21, 2002.


Rick: Around here the frost line is about 4' but the "soil" I had to dig in was very hostile to digging so I wound up with my post holes about 2 1/2' deep. I'm not real concerned about it tho because the drainage is really good and its been there for over three yrs now with no evidence of heaving etc. I would think in Va 3' would be plenty due to your much milder weather compared to N Wisconsin.

The big L were nothing more than some bar stock about 1 1/2" wide and bent to shape with a hammer and vise. As to the rest of your questions I only have some ideas but I'm not a builder so I'll refrain from answering till I get a feel for what the other more experienced folks say.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), January 21, 2002.


Rick,here's a suggestion.Large army tent. They can be found at army surplus stores very reasonable.Can be set on wood floor, Can be made very comforable inside.Then build as you want.

-- David R In TN. (srimmer@earthlink.net), January 21, 2002.

Rick-heres another thought-what about a used mobile home? They are cheap to almost free-We had a hard time selling ours-we were at the point of donating it to a charity, for a tax write off. I really don't want to sound mean or anything, but I hope you have a very sound marriage-or perhaps a friend who is a marriage councilor? There were times when we were in cramped quarters, and building that would would have gleefully sold each other to the gypsies. At very least, keep a good grip on your sense of humor!!!!!!

Another thought-check out used bookstores-we found several good books on small buildings these were written during 70's back to land movement and had lots of good ideas-and were cheap!

-- Kelly(KY) (homearts2002@yahoo.com), January 22, 2002.


Rick, many small cabins and sheds in Minnesota are simply built on top of loose concrete blocks. The topsoil is removed, the subsoil compacted by hand with a 4x4 post or similar device. Then one or two or sometimes three blocks are placed on top of each other in these shallow holes. Then the holes are backfilled....very simple. These concrete block pillars or piers are locate at the buildings corners and about every six to eight feet around the perimeter of the building. Of course, you may get some shifting or frost heaving during the winter if you live where the soil freezes. What people do then is in the spring, they simply jack the edges of the building up next to each block pilllar and slip in some wooden spaces (generally only an inch or two is needed) on top of the concrete block piers to level the building. --Happy trails, CF

-- Cabin Fever (cabinfever_mn@yahoo.com), January 22, 2002.


Kelly

Actually we have been at each others throats the last couple of years, and were hoping a new place to call home and hang tools in would smooth things over!!!

-- Rick (WV) (Rick_122@hotmail.com), January 22, 2002.


But Seriously Kelly et al, we consider our marriage to be strong, but after all we're biased. Our minds are in the same place, and I am the one who will suffer if it is too cramped. This is actually why we are avoiding a camper. We also won't have local access to any until we move, or begin spending our weeks there this year. (Our homestead is 7 hours away from where we currently live.

David, do you think we could stay comfortable (50 degrees) inside the tent with some form of heat at a worst case scenario of 0 degrees? My gut felling is.... brrrrrrr.

CF thanks once again for a tip.

This is most likely what we will do. Also, What size blocks would we be talking about with a 2 foot frost line?

-- Rick (WV) (Rick_122@hotmail.com), January 22, 2002.


Rick, since you have little money for materials, need to move things on your back or a sled and don't have much building experience, why don't you check this url out? You would only have to buy and haul bags and a minimum of cement for the plaster and maybe some used windows and doors. Looks odd, but if you are that remote, probably it wouldn't matter. You can start with one unit and keep adding until you had enough of them. Luck, kim http://www.calearth.org/emergshelter.htm

-- kim in CO (kimk61252@hotmail.com), April 03, 2002.

Thanks Kim!

I'm peeking at them now, and boy are they weird.

If they hold heat though...we just spent 3 out of 8 nites at 35 to 40 deg F (INSIDE our newly acquired Motor Home), and it was early April. It was 20 to 28 deg F outside the Home in our valley.

-- Rick in SW West Virginia (Rick_122@hotmail.com), April 07, 2002.


There was an article in the local paper here today on these shelters. Down south of here there's alot of migrant worker camps for the avocado and flower farms. You wouldn't believe how many people are living in them. Primitive homesteader style too ; ) Some organization has just started building these shelters to replace the shacks in their camps. They're hoping the local governments will allow these shelters to stay, since every so often the govt comes in and levels these camps. They're using the same exact dome concept of the sandbags and barbed wire and coating the outside with adobe. Cement floors. Don't know how these would work in wetter climates, my guess is not good.

It looks like a decent idea but looks like to me that it'd be more work than building with wood once you start getting bigger than about a 10' circle.

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), April 08, 2002.



Good point Dave, and a 10 foot circle ain't that big. I guess it would do for a bed in the cold Winter.

-- Rick in SW West Virginia (Rick_122@hotmail.com), April 11, 2002.

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