Is there a good way to sedate an animal for emergency surgery at home?

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OK, I feel very cowardly hiding behind a fake name and email; I'm sorry, I'm afraid some might be upset by this topic. My question is, if we were to need to sew up a wound or set a bone on one of our animals (goat or dog), is there something we can give the animal to calm it or sedate it. Such as whisky, valerian, ??? Specifically, at this time we have a very large 10 month-old male Livestock guardian dog who needs to be neutered. We are familiar with the neutering process and have successfully and uneventfully neutered about 4 cats and 3 dogs in the past, but none so large as this one. He's very gentle and submissive, but, well, BIG. So we'd like to have him very zoned out and relaxed for the procedure. What sort of substance can we use to accomplish this that will be safe and effective? Thanks, Anon

-- anon (anon@hiding.com), January 23, 2002

Answers

We have a mobile vet who will come to our house and do such procedures he actually nutered our cat on the kitchen table he used p.c.p. (angel dust) thats what he told me it was. It was terrable watching the cat go through this and comming out of it. I don't know what you would use at home I would call the local farm store and ask them. ronda

-- ronda (thejohnsons@localaccess.com), January 23, 2002.

your right about hiding.we doctor our animals when we can and see fit to.but not surgery. just because you have had luck before. thats all it was. whatcha gonna do if infection sets in and then you have an astronomical vet bill??can you pay it?what if your pet dies??giving your pet whiskey ,especially enough to get it drunk will damage its liver and kidneys.would you consider having a few shots of booze and getting circumsized?? i'm all for self sufficency, but that boarders cruel and inhumane treatment of your wonderful pet.what did you use to "sedate" your other dogs and cats?you obviously know its wrong or you wouldnt be hiding behind a false name. GET A VET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- cody (urbusted@alltel.net), January 23, 2002.

I think it`s Outrageous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- steve (homestead@110.net), January 23, 2002.

Well, I'm not averse to you castrating your dog (although if I were forced to do it in your circumstances I'd probably think about rubber rings to do the job and a plastic collar to stop him getting at the "affected area"). If you really want to make it a surgical procedure, and want an anaesthetic or sedative, then the only one I can think of that doesn't require prescription by a vet would be alcohol. I'd suggest vodka rather than whiskey, unless you can get access to a clear tasteless moonshine. I'd also suggest thinking real hard about how much the alcohol would cost. Discounting the best price you can find of a discount neutering by the cost of a half- bottle of vodka might give you a fresh outlook on whether you can afford a vet to do the job.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), January 23, 2002.

Well, I read through my original post and see that I really worded it badly. I never actually thought to use whisky, I only tossed it out there to show I hadn't a clue what to use. I don't want to actually anesthetize the dog, merely relax him, and I've found my answer: Benadryl. It's safe for dogs and makes them drowsy and relaxed.

I don't think it's outrageous at all and there will be no more risk of infection than if done by a vet. We don't intend to use a rusty razorblade. I'm not hiding behind a fake name because I feel guilty, but because I don't want angry outraged emails sent to my inbox.

This is a very simply slit and cut procedure that has never overly bothered an animal we've done before. One cat went right on purring after opening his eyes for a moment in surprise. This dog we want to neuter would likely be as bothered by the trip to the vet and the strange people and the needle used to anesthetize him. It would cost us nearly $100 to have a vet do it, because of his size. I am not going to come back and read any more of the answers on this thread and wish I could have the whole thing deleted. I am embarressed for my stupidity in starting it, but I am doing nothing wrong in neutering my dog myself. You who are outraged simply haven't witnessed the procedure to see how quick and easy it is.

-- anon (anon@hiding.com), January 23, 2002.



if its that big,, and dont need it knocked out,, I would think a codine pill (T3) would be fine

-- stan (sopal@net-port.com), January 23, 2002.

I'm guessing since you've done this in the past, you very aware of the need for sterile conditions. Having said that, I'd go along with the post suggesting alcohol except get grain alcohol, Everclear is one brand, and mix it with something sweet like juice, kool aid or the like. You can get a fairly good concentration of alcohol and it should be tasteless. If you can't tase the alcohol, I doubt the dog will either.

Good luck.

-- Darren (df1@infi.net), January 23, 2002.


You asked about EMERGENCY surgery. Neutering is NOT emergency surgery. I have stitched dogs who have gotten hurt hunting but would never consider surgery like this on an animal. As someone said, that is animal abuse.

-- Karla (kdeithorn@earthlink.net), January 23, 2002.

I think you guys are funny. I thought this was a forum for people who were open minded about doing things in alternative ways, like people did for thousands of years, before a person had to have a so called "expert" for every situation they came across. I feel more comfortable with the unnamed person doing this procedure on her beloved animal, than a vet who has NO emotional attachment to her animal and who has a very vested interest in promoting the idea that "experts" are the only ones who can learn how to care for our animals (or our humans for that matter) and that interest is MONEY. Those college debts never stop screaming in your ears. Sure a person needs to educate themselves, but we CAN take back control of our lives and care for our loved ones.

-- openminded (lllll@noplace.com), January 23, 2002.

I've sewn my dogs up on many occassions. This was actually at the recommendation of my vet that told me not to waste my time taking the dogs in to be stitched and to do it myself. She taught me how to do it using a clean large gauge syringe needle and regular sewing thread. I've seen in lots of the vet-like catalogs that you can now purchase a proper needle and thread (cat gut) for sewing up animals. My vet explained to me that dogs do not feel pain the same way as us and that their nerve endings do not go all the way to the top of their skin - ours do, which is why it hurts to get a tattoo.

Personally I wouldn't neuter my own dog but I really can't see much difference between doing the dog yourself and doing your livestock yourself - other than dogs are viewed as pets and sheep, pigs etc.. are viewed as livestock. I mean people do their livestock (sheep, pigs, goats, cattle etc...) all the time and no-one thinks anything of it.

I would also like to point out that having your animal neutered at a vets does not mean complications will not happen. As someone who used to run a dog rescue of which ALL the dogs were spayed or neutered I've had many that had complications. Such as infection, swelling, pulled out stitches, adverse reaction to being put under, dying while under, etc... One vet even cut the urinary tract, had to redo surgery to fix the problem, than while catherizing the dog repoked a hole in the urinary tract - that poor dog ended up being at the vets for 2 weeks.

-- Anita in NC (anitaholton@mindspring.com), January 23, 2002.



Perhaps I should answer this with a fake email addy :) I think the humanizing of the animals is the first problem. Take your poodle to the vet to be castrated, but a livestock guardian dog? If you are lucky you can even get them to leave the stock without sedation :) A broken leg, stitches for a laceration, disbudding and castrating are all things that can be done, and in the case of some animals, goats, you are playing with fire sedating them. You can take the edge off with things, aspirin, banamine etc. I think the benedryl idea is a good one. But it really isn't the question that bothers me the most its the lack of basic info from some of you with stock or pets. We have a goat guru site for all meds for goats, all sedation techniques from lidocaine to aspirin saanendoah.com I would bet there are these same types of sites, and folks who could answer these questions for you, for all classes of livestock, just stay away from the heavy emotional pet type lists, and of course those belonging to PETA etc. And in the case of your dog it isn't slit and cut, its slit and scrape. Tetanus vaccines, temperature taking, preshaving and betadine for the site, and of course having penicillin on hand for the rare infection. An elizabethian color will help him from pulling the sutures. All things that are easily purchased from jefferslivestock.com and jefferspet.com Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), January 23, 2002.

Wow Anon! You must have missed the big cat neutering debate back in November! You should have seen the fur fly! IMHO some people know how to take care of their animal's needs and some don't. Good luck!

-- cowgirlone in OK (cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), January 23, 2002.

Dear Anon,

We have also done our share of neutering (cats) at home over the years. Our vet taught us how to do this and we do use anesthesia, prescription only, and we are comfortable with this procedure. We have also sewn up a number of animals in emergency situations, both livestock and pets, when a vet was unavailable. So I understand where you're coming from, and I don't think it's abuse. That said, I think you are taking on more than you can handle trying to neuter this dog yourself. Too many potential problems, and I'm afraid you would, as mentioned above, cause yourself to have a huge vet bill or even lose your dog. I'm also unaware of any non-prescription method that would sedate this dog adequately, and would be afraid to use it if there was. This is one situation where I would take the dog to the vet, even if you have to pay full price.

I don't know where you are located, but many areas do have low-income spay/neuter clinics, or even just a low rate spay/neuters regardless of household income. We don't qualify for the low-income clinics, yet have always been able to find a "special" put on by the vets or local animal groups, that allow us to have our spays and neuters done at 1/2 or 1/3 of what a vet would normally charge. There is also one vet clinic here that always charges a considerably lower fee. Call around to every available vet to compare prices, and also contact local humane societies and animal welfare groups...someone should be able to tell you what's available at a reasonable cost. BTW, my animals get equally good care at the low cost clinics as at any of the regular vets. We've had many, many animals done at these clinics and not had one loss or even one case of infection. This one time, please reconsider and don't attempt to neuter this dog yourself.

-- JJ (none@nospam.com), January 23, 2002.


Wow! I was amazed at how quickly and emotionally charged this question brought out the men in the audience. I agree, if you can do this sort of service on your other farm animals, what is the big deal with a dog? I personally am not qualified by knowledge or experience to do this sort of thing, but if my neighbor was, I'd called him. Heaven's sake, Homesteaders help deliver all kinds of babies all the time! You don't hear us women screaming about it.

-- (Me@fakeaddy.com), January 23, 2002.

it is interesting that this is a homesteading site and one can't ask a simple quesiton about a common homesteading practice without having to use a fake name!

I ditto what Vicki said!

and I do hope anon in hiding comes back in to see what Vicki posted.

-- LurkyLu (lurkylu@yahoo.com), January 23, 2002.



I'd be interested how many of the people who answer these questions are really farm people who make their entire subsistence on their farm. Our older relatives who were considered the best dairymen around never used a vet--couldn't have afforded it! You learn, yes sometimes even from a vet, but if you are very far from such amenities or can't afford it--that's what you did.

I'm glad you asked this question. I guess everyone is used to their opinion, but I wish we could get answers to questions/rather than straight criticism. Please ignore the criticism.

What is so unique about Countryside magazine and this forum is that ALL views are invited and you may pick and choose what you will. Most people who own farms do so because they love and respect animals. There are a million ways to feed, breed, and care for animals--let's share and not silence anyone. It's ok to say, I do this differently--heres how I do it... Rather than.. You are foolish to do it that way.

I'd say that neutering seven animals successfully says something-- like you know what you are doing. My relatives have been dairymen and cattle people for generations--I've never heard of them using a vet to castrate or neuter. Do people really think dogs and cats-- because they are in our homes(sometimes) are a different story? I say this, even though I myself use a vet for this procedure. So I think this is a valid question--thanks for asking it. Your safety is a valid concern too.

-- Ann Markson (tngreenacres@hotmail.com), January 23, 2002.


this is a subject (surgery) that has been on my mind lately and I've learned a couple of things from those who attempted to answer the question that was posed here.

my dog recently tangled with a neighbor's barbwire fence and showed up at the door with what amounted to a "shortsleeved" front leg. fully exposed muscles, tendons, arteries - you get the picture. as it happened I had a (mostly) adequate first aid kit on hand and was able to dress her with clean bandages and get her to the vet. I wasn't in any way up to a sew job of this magnitude (technically or squeamishly) but it got me to thinking about what should be on hand for emergencies and what skills along those lines I should possess as a minimum. I've since increased my first aid response capability (still a work in progress) and have plans to beef up my library to include a good vet manual as well as books such as "Where There is No Vet". Maybe next year "Where There is No Doctor" (which covers emergency surgery for humans - hmmmmm)

would I try a home neuter job? no. do I think it's impossible or unethical? no. (I picture a long line of young bulls waiting their turn at the vet's office). the care of animals is a subject most of us here spend a good deal of time thinking about and dealing with. open discussion of same = good in my book.

"Sparky" the sighthound is doing fine now. I'm going to have some Everclear on hand in case it ever happens again - FOR ME!

-- B. Lackie (cwrench@hotmail.com), January 23, 2002.


Something I was thinking of but forgot to mention in my reasons for taking THIS particular dog to a vet rather than doing the procedure themselves, is the danger to the owners. We have used lidocaine, etc on livestock, but had facilities to restrain the animal well enough to prevent injury to ourselves. As I stated earlier, I am unaware of any non prescription meds that would SEDATE this dog adequately. Nor do I know of any method of properly restraining a dog this size for this type of procedure, lidocaine or not. We once had a well mannered 45# dog get a faceful of quills on a Sunday morning. Despite using local anesthetics, using a muzzle, trussing the dog up like a turkey and thoroughly duct-taping all his limbs, and 2 adults anchoring him down, he came close to ripping into someone's face. We decided the vet was cheaper than a trip to the emergency room. I have serious doubts about restraining a dog the size of a LGD for a painful treatment without risking injury to those working on him.

-- JJ (none@nospam.com), January 23, 2002.

Trolling, Trolling, along the internet way?

-- Gary (gws@columbus.rr.com), January 23, 2002.

Please stop taking needle and threads to patch wounds. Super glue was first made for humal plastic surgery.

-- mitch hearn (moopups@citlink.net), January 23, 2002.

anon, you do what you think is best, it is your dog(unfortunetly). As it is a large breed and not all that young anymore for this surgery, do tie off the blood vessels and for heavens sakes you all, Everclear kills people so don't use it on your animals. Well, not orally anyway, I guess you could pour it on to help with disinfecting but an antibiotic powder would be better and wouldn't be so painful. Ouchie wa wa! That said I hope you will let us know how it went. Whether you and your helpers(you will need a lot of them)still have all their body parts after you are done and how the dog does. LQ

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), January 23, 2002.

I'm going to say that I think learning to do what needs to be done is good amimal care, when you know, you can make the best choices, [and benadryl doesn't make my dogs drowsy, I got some Acepromazine 25 mg. 20 pills cost me $20 in OKC,] I have wondered about topical anesthetics I've used the sore throat spray with Phenol for getting spinters and glass out without pain, I've wondered about novocane too but haven't been back by the vet to ask lately. The super glue is good to use and healing is faster, and if you go ahead your self, look very closely for veins that would cross the cut, larger animals have more in that area that small amimals, trim the hair before hand too. if you get a bleader stay calm, and pinch it HARD or burn it with ciggaret the animal will jump but then its over, and what ever don't let the lick at it until you see healing check it several times a day, look for and odd or uneven swelling any oozing, any odd odor of color. After all if you've done it before you know more than the first time a vet does it, don't you!

-- Thumper (slrldr@yahoo.com), January 23, 2002.

I was thinking about the post(s) about holding the dog down, if you don't already have him trained to stay down while held, give him some lessons so he will know to accept it no matter what your doing. I teach all my animals to accept ANY thing I do to them, [With time I can get a horse to go down with halter pressure and tone of voice, but it is alot easier to teach them from babyhood]

-- Thumper (slrldr@yahoo.com), January 23, 2002.

Take this for what it is worth -- I had my kid (goat) taken to the vet for disbudding and castration. He died on the operating table-- he was allergic to the anesthsia. They tried to revive him to no avail. I was heartbroken. :^(

-- Sharon (spangenberg@hovac.com), January 23, 2002.

Wow, That hit me, and made me feel sad for your loss Sharon, I don't usally react that way, I'm sending you a hug. .....It's odd how some things just get to you.....I'll bet, you still had to pay the vet bill?

-- Thumper (slrldr@yahoo.com), January 23, 2002.

Dear anon, You have received a lot of help to sift thru, but I had to tell you, I know what NOT to use. Starting fluid for a car saturated on a kitchen towel wrapped around the dogs nose! They go out like a light. I did this with only small children to help, we had three big dogs needing immediate assistance, no money, no transportation, living in the back woods of Alaska, something had to be done so I did it, but a Vet. later said it was a miracle at least one did not die and all three might have had lung damage. They lived a long life after that and did not show signs of damage, but I do not advise this method. Good luck, Maureen

-- Maureen Stevenson (maureen@mtaonline.net), January 23, 2002.

I want to humbly apologize to all of you for posting without thinking last night. I knew it would upset some people but I needed the info I was looking for. Well, I really thank you all for your responses. I've given this a lot of thought and have found, in the next county, a low cost spay/neuter clinic where he can be neutered for just $40.00 plus a $10.00 deposit for an Elizabethan collar; when I return the collar, they give me the $10.00 back. That's just too cheap for us to pass up and he's worth it. I wasn't worried that we would get hurt; I just wanted the dog to be comfortable. Once again, thanks.

And guys, don't be so quick to be so judgemental, and to condemn others' actions based on what you know. None of us know it all or have seen it all. I still think our poor dog will be more traumatized by the strangers, the shot, spending the night away from the only home he's ever known. When I leave him there he won't know he's not being abandoned--where is the righteous indignation at the mental suffering he'll experience, thinking I might not come back for him? I'm very serious about that. How can you call my neutering him myself animal abuse and not my leaving him at a strange place by himself? Sometimes things aren't cut and dried. Well, I didn't intend to write a tirade, it just happened. I'll let you all know how it went.

-- anon (anon@anon.com), January 23, 2002.


The test of a "true homesteader" is the ability and willingness to doctor ones own animals, including necessary castration.

-- Beentheredonethat (B2@aol.com), January 23, 2002.

I think it says alot when this person cannot sign ha real name for fear of nasty emails. Alas, I guess homesteaders are no different than anyone else when it comes to getting in peoples faces.

I for one do not see a problem in castrating this dog. Have I ever done it? No, but if I had the knowledge I would. I have castrated hogs and cattle. This large dog would have less chance running into problems than some of the cats. My vet said he would much rather do dogs. I am not sure of the method being used, but restrainsts are as easy as a rope around each leg tied off.

Its not that I mind alot of views..heck that is what makes forums like this great! Its the snottiness and down right rudeness of people that gripe my butt. This person asked for help...if you do not have help to offer...keep your keyboard quiet. Its a bit of that do onto others thing...ya know?

Have a great day one and all.

-- Sher (riverdobbers@webtv.net), January 23, 2002.


i think that the negative responces including my own came from the fact that this person seemed totally in the dark about doing this procedure even though they said they had done it before.it also leads one to believe that since he was unfamiliar with sedation but had neutered 7 animals in the past, that he has done this procedure to his animals with no pain killer at all.stuff like that gets people stirred up. the issue for me wasnt all animals should be taken to the vet for everything. as i believe if you can do something as well as a pro then by all means do it.but when you act like your clueless.. well thats another story. alot of damage could be done. thanks

-- cody (urbusted@alltel.net), January 23, 2002.

Cody, Sorry to disagree with you, but I reread the original post and it is stated that because of the large size of this particular dog...they needed some ideas on calming/sedating it. See, they still know how to perform the op..just trying to be cautious for the dogs well being. Other than not knowing how to achieve this particular problem, I did not note that they were confused or clueless as you have stated.

I have an open mind here...have I misread something? Sher

-- Sher (riverdobbers@webtv.net), January 23, 2002.


Hi "Anon"

Folks who keep livestock on their land eventually face the right of passage known as doctoring.

For us, we began with intra-muscular injections of flu vaccines and occasional anti-biotics for our horses when ordered by a vet.

When we raised laying hens, ducks, turkeys and meat chickens, we lived through many more indoctrinations. We were given anti-biotic doses per pound by our vet. We purchased Betadine Surgical Scrub, antibiotics, suture needles and thread from our farm supply store.

To date, we have stitched a little adopted pigeon who encountered an irritable hen, a duck injured by a coyote, a goose injured by the same coyote, a 20-lb Cornish Giant rooster who was attacked twice by a neighbor's dog, and our border collie's front foot injured by barbed wire. All received antibiotics in their water and/or by injection.

When necessary, the most accessible and inexpensive anesthetic is... an ice cube. We hose the area liberally with ice-cold water for about 5 minutes, then apply an ice cube for a minute or so, then surgical scrub, then a stitch or two. Repeat as needed.

Drugs like Aspirin and Tylenol are toxic to dogs and cats. Aspirin is safe for horses in an emergency like colic, but ask a vet to recommend the dose based on weight. We ground up 10 x 500 mg for our mare who weighed about 1000 lbs. and mixed the powder with molasses to give by mouth.

I can see the benefits of being able to do basic triage vetting on the farm, but when our turkeys got Blackhead, we had to find a vet who knew her parasites. I had a crash course in stomach-tubing to help keep the rest of our flock alive.

When one of our older hens suffered stroke-like paralysis and blindness, we consulted with our vet and worked tirelessly for several weeks to nurse Rhoda back to health. When one of our newest pullets arrived with an old leg injury, an x-ray at the vet revealed that she had no hip joint on that leg. Angelina is now a beloved house hen who uses her "backward foot" to balance and steer.

I'm happy to hear you found a vet who would work with you. It helps to know you are following some sort of basic protocol and "doing no harm" as you try to facilitate the health of your birds and animals.

Let your heart guide you.

Elisabeth

-- Elisabeth Dowson (silverspiritfarms@yahoo.com), January 23, 2002.


I am pretty totally clueless about this, but this is exactly what I mean about people being quick to judge: *I* am clueless but my husband is not. He asked me to find out about something to calm this dog. Pain killer is not necessary; as I said, he has done this many times and knows how to do it very quickly, and the animals have not suffered. If someone asks a question, why can't others just answer the question asked without assuming so much? You make a judgment about our situation based on the fact that I seem to be totally in the dark, but judgements weren't called for, only information. I was gathering information for someone else and didn't know enough to sound like I knew what I was about.

-- anon (anon@anon.com), January 23, 2002.

sorry, that last response was meant for cody! Yes, we are going to do things by the book with this particular dog, but I think it may be 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other as to which way is really best for the dog, given that we love him and my husband knows what he's doing. What's the difference, a shot of anesthesia? When I had our baby my midwife stitched me up without anesthesia. She said the shot hurt more than the stitches. I wouldn't hesitate to let her do that again.

-- anon (anon@anon.com), January 23, 2002.

Is it possible and safe to use an elastrator on a big dog, like you would on a bull?

-- Michelle (stay@home.com), January 23, 2002.

Anon, Just a thought - I don't like to stress my animals any more than necessary by leaving them overnight at the vets either. ALL the vets who do the low cost spay neuters, and for that matter, nearly all the regular vets also, let the owners take the animal home that night unless the animal has not come out of the anesthesia properly. I haven't had to leave one yet. I always take them in early, 7-8 a.m., and the vet does them right away and lets me pick them up by 4 or 5 p.m. Again, don't know if this is possible for you, but you might ask the vet you'll be using.

-- JJ (none@nospam.com), January 23, 2002.

dear anon,ok.. with all that said. your original post was maybe not enough info and frankly seemed a little scary. i realize that not all details can be given when asking a question. if i made you feel bad or mad it was not intentional.its just the way the question was asked.as you said yourself when you went back and read it ,it wasnt presented right. good luck to you and GOD BLESS..CODY

-- cody (urbusted@alltel.net), January 23, 2002.

"it wasnt presented right"

Guess you really are the countryside police, Cody. LOL

-- LOL (laugh@outloud.org), January 23, 2002.


Yep, I knew it! They are going to file this thread along side of the big cat neutering debate from November. It is sad that people can't ask a simple question without getting views thrown back at them. If you don't have an answer for the question, it's best to just pass it by and let the people that DO know the answer, take over. I still think that SOME people know how to take care of their animal's needs, and SOME don't. Best wishes!

-- cowgirlone in OK (cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), January 23, 2002.

A couple of things wouldn't the gum medication work to reduce the pain of a local? I can't think of the name right now but it is sold otc to work as a local and a lot of denists use it to reduce the pain of their injection. Another thought is do you use a vet or does one of your neighbors which knowing that you know what you are doing might give you a prescription med to sedate the animal maybe even give you some to keep on hand for the emergencys that do arise and maybe the dosing instructions for different animals. I know my vet trusts my judgement and unless she has to only sees my dogs once a year for their rabies shot as she has to give those to keep the state happy. For example I had a dog attacked by my other dogs on saturday while he was having his monthly seizure. My vet doesn't want to medicate him as he only has one a month or so. At any rate when I called I was even willing to pay for a house call as I have no transportatio but she felt I was able to do the things needed but did feel that antibiotics were going to be needed to be safe so she mailed me some. But back to this thread maybe you could get a sediative to use in the future not to knock out completly as the vet might do while doing this proceedure but something that might work at home. Ive rambled enough so will close.

-- gail missouri ozarks (gef@getgoin.net), January 23, 2002.

Dont have an answer for what to use..just want to add my 2 cents worth. I agree that we only need to give an answer for what is asked not a SERMON about doctoring animals. I lost a nice doe and baby a few years ago because I didnt do a C section to save the baby, Cant justify the cost of vet bill,could have saved the baby. By not doing the C section I lost both. God Bless

-- Charles Steen (xbeeman412@aol.com), January 23, 2002.

Well, I'm glad the question was asked. Amazing the things you've heard, even know, but don't remember. I think the answer found is most likely to be the right answer, but you can't always count on having those resources available when required. Benadryl as sedative, ice as anaesthetic. Remember this, Donald. R.E.M.E.M.B.E.R.

What?

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), January 23, 2002.


you just bring one thing to mnd , DO NOT use an elastrator , i have seen dogs , literally chew thier own testacles off from this , if you do decide , that rather than surgery you want to band him , you MUST keep an elizabethian collar on FOR AT LEAST 1 week, 7 days!!!

if you do not the dog will lick and gnaw and "clean" the area , until , most often the dog chews the skin off, the testicles go back into the abdominal cavity , the 1 inch round hole heals , and the dog is stil "intact" , but generally infertile ..... i saw this at one of my vets offices , the dog had to be opened up , and the scar tissue cut through and re sutured , very nasty!

if you decide to castrate surgicly , you open up the testicular sac , and scrape the testicles out do not cut , it needs to be scraped so the blood vessals will close up.

you can (if you shave the area) use a butterfly tape to close the testicle pouch , or you can throw one stitch on there , if youre concerned , but , its not nessecary

-- Beth Van Stiphout (willosnake@hotmail.com), January 24, 2002.


Annon: A big thanks for nutering your dog its the adult responsible thing to do, you are very smart for exploring all possibilities. I grew up on a large grade A dairy it was my parents only source of income. Dad gave shots and small stuff but when it came to surgery stitching the vet was always called the animals were just to valuable to play fast and loose with. When you own a farm vet bills are just part on the whole picture, as are good fences, and enough land for your animals, proper care and attention. and good and proper food the animals health and welfare always came before everything. Thats interesting about the benadryl I have heard that before, I wonder how many mg. per pound of animal, it could come in handy the fourth of July we have a dog that is terrified of fireworks it's sad to see his eyes and watch him suffer.

-- ronda (thejohnsons@localaccess.com), January 24, 2002.

What an interesting discussion! Fun too! I am laughing at anon's Vet telling her that a dog's nerve endings don't go clear out to the skin like ours do? Where did that Vet go to school? Also fun was the suggestion that she train the dog to "stay", no matter what was done to him. Ask all the men on this forum. Would any of you "stay" while that was being done to you? And which would you prefer, have the surgery with anesthesia or without? This is great! Sorry, I just couldn't help it! Some good suggestions and stuff too. Love this place! LOL LQ

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), January 25, 2002.

Little Quacker, you might be suprised what a well trained dog will do. I have had one that I taught well enough that I called him off a female inheat just before the tie hooked them together, he was crying and humping by reflex as he was walking (probably cussing me in dog talk) but he came to heel at my left knee as he was trained to do, and he heeled just because I told him to, I didn't have to hit him to get him off of her.

and I do think there is a difference between "stay" and "wait" training and "I'm holding you down, don't get up, don't struggle, trust me, I will let you up, that's a good dog here's a reward" training that all dogs, esp. BIG dogs should have for medical treatment, even my cats learn to hold still, a fact that has saved some lives [once someone put a rubber band round a leg, on another a piece of bone was stuck in the back teeth, that one was not fun]

Perhaps most people don't teach their animals to trust them?

-- Thumper (slrldr@yahoo.com), January 25, 2002.


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