You all have given such good advice in the past that I figured that I couldn't miss asking again!

Here goes...I hurt my knee when I was a child in a very severe accident. They said that it wasn't broken, but it was deeply bruised and black from my thigh down to almost my ankle. Looked terrible and was hard to walk on for a while. When I would accidentally tap it on something, it would send me through the roof. Well, that was 30 plus years ago. It occasionally would bother me over the years when I would ski or do something to strain it. Nothing out of the ordinary. Well, a few years back it started telling me when the weather was going to change. Pretty mild, but let me know about the rain. Well, I fell on it about a month ago and then I fell again (roller skating of all things:~)!!) I was jumping down from the rail of the roller rink and my skate caught my hem of my dress and then kersplatt on my knees. It catches now when I try to stand up or sit down. It kinda grabs and when it finally bends it makes a noise and hurts. Not the usual snap crackle and pop, but more like a catch and then yowwy! It is not as bad when I am up and about, but it bothers me at night when I try to sleep. I called my uncle that is a retired doctor and he seems to think that I tore my Miniscus. I think I know what that is...but not sure. He wants me to go to the doctor. Well, I wanted to know what you all would do and if that has ever happened to you? Uncle doc says that it will keep getting worse if it is a torn M. What do you all think? Spend the money and go or rough it out? Ideas on alternatives to docs.?? We have tried horse liniment(hubby's idea..he works for a feed mill!), ibuprofen helps but don't like to take it indefinitely, and heat doesn't do much for it. Thanks! I appreciate you all!

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), January 31, 2002

Answers

About 3 years ago my knees got so bad I had to grab something to stand up, then I heard about Knox gelatin, the stuff you use to make jelly, taken inturnally helps regrow the padding between joints. So I started taking about half of a sewing thimbleful twice a week, no problems since. Everybody I have told about this got results in a few days, about 30 % got no relief, its an organic food product that may help. Disolve it in a liquid and drink right away, if you leave it for a bit of time you will have solid water.

-- mitch hearn (moopups@citlink.net), January 31, 2002.

I tend to agree with the first opinion you got. A 30 year old injury most likely has nothing to do with your current situation.

If you want an easy way to look at what the two menisci do and the cruciate ligaments in your knee do. Then get some ready to cook chicken legs and look at the knee joints of these chicken legs. The chicken knees joints will show you all the major structures that you can find in a human knee. Then take and damage one of the meniscus located on the chicken lower leg and see how that affects the movement of that joint. This link, Knee Meniscus Tears, http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/2000/03_00/bernstein.htm, will give you some guidance on this.

THE PHYSICIAN AND SPORTSMEDICINE magazine/web site has good articles and pictures on anything related to sports medicine injuries. The pictures will show you the basic parts of knee anatomy. Then by damaging different parts of your chicken knees, you will be better able to understand how that damage relates to your own situation.

-- BC (desertdweller44@yahoo.com), January 31, 2002.

Get thee to an orthopedic surgeon NOW! Your doctor can refer you. Chances are there is an orthopedic clinic in the nearest large city.

It is only going to get worse to the point you may not be able to put any pressure on it. Chances are they will have an MRI done on the knee, then go in with using arthroscopic procedures for a look-see. They may or may not be able to repair the damage. It may be too late to where all they can do is to minimize future damage.

In my case, I have lost most of the cartilage on the two knee bones and the underside of the knee cap was rough on one knee. Got to the point putting on a pair of socks was agony. He basically cleaned them up as best he could and said sometime in the future I might be looking at a knee replacement. (If I'm sitting, but a finger on one side of the knee, the thumb on the other and flex the knee, I can feel a grinding within the knee.) It was out-patient surgery and I was walking normal within a couple of days.

Worked great in my case since there was no ligament damage to repair. Have been about 99% pain free for about three years. And yes, it does bother me a bit when the weather changes. At this case, I may never need to have the knee joint replaced (about an eight-week recovery period).

Remember athletes have knee surgery done and go back to playing professional sports.

Both my orthopecic surgeon and chropractor have me taking three tablets a day of Double Strength Glucosamine Hydrochloride (1,500 mg) and Chondroitin Sulfate (1,200 mg). There is increasing evidence, primarily from Europe, it helps retain cartilage in joints (including the spine). Cost is about $.015 per tablet - or about a nickel a day.

My insurance covered almost all of the cost.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), January 31, 2002.

Nan, I would suggest that you go to the doctor. I have a bum knee also from playing basketball at age 13. My doctor says to put a cold pack on it for the pain. My problem right now is a Baker's cyst on the back of my knee that only bothers me when I do things like gardening that means a lot of ups and downs. Since you fell on yours you have probably damaged something that should at least be checked by a doctor before it gets to the point that you can't walk on it at all.

Sheila

-- Sheila Smith (nannie@intrstar.net), January 31, 2002.

This board has great advice on goats, chickens, ducks, cows, barns, heaters, and all sorts of things related to homesteading. Lots of poor folks don't want to spend money on a doctor...sometimes they simply don't have it. But...unless you expect medical advice from a qualified physician on this site....listen closely....GO TO A DOCTOR AND FORGET THE HOME REMEDIES OFFERED BY ANYONE ON THIS BOARD!! Do it ASAP.

-- Steve (smdann@swbell.net), January 31, 2002.

As one with a husband who could not afford to go to the doctor as he had no insurance, let me tell you: Go to an orthopaedic clinic (but go to one that is highly recommended in your area). My husband had a ladder collapse with him 4 years ago and we had no insurance. He hurt his ankle and couldn't walk properly. We got married and now he has insurance and has just gotten the ankle repaired (after a second accident reinjured it). Point is, had he not gone so long, he would probably have not damaged the cartiledge in the joint by walking on it without repairing the damage. So now he has arthritis in the joint and we just went through orthoscopic surgery ($4500) to fix it. But he will never really be ok to jog, or run again I don't think. So please, don't put it off but go to the doc and get an MRI. You cannot tell soft tissue damage by a normal x-ray. I talking ligaments, cartilege and stuff like that. Don't wait until you can't walk on it or bend without howling. I hope you feel better soon!

-- Cindy (colawson@mindspring.com), January 31, 2002.

As a couple others have already said, GO TO THE DOCTOR!! I first hurt my knee 18 years ago jumping off a loading dock - torn meniscus, sprained knee, sprained ankle, and chipped a bone in my foot. Had a cast for 3 weeks and then physical therapy. Two years later, it started bothering me, hurt to bend it, hurt to press the clutch in, and made that clicking noise when I walked. I had surgery to clean up the previous tear in the meniscus that was now hanging down and catching. About 7 years ago, I hurt the same knee roller skating - a bit worse this time. Snapped off the anterior crucia ligament and tore ligaments on either side of the knee cap. Had a cast for 7 weeks while the torn ligaments heeled then I had surgery to clean up the ACL. Had to wear a big robotic looking brace for about 6 weeks and had a lot more physical therapy. Point is - if I had not had the surgery and the therapy I would definately have a lot of difficulty walking today. I get pain in my knee anytime it moves sideways (like slipping on ice) or when I climb stairs and yes, I feel the barometric changes too. Since you do not have xray vision, please, please go to the doctor. You don't want to not do something now that could greatly impact your ability to get around in the future. Good luck!!

-- Cindy in NY (cjpopeck@worldnet.att.net), January 31, 2002.

Yes! Thanks! I think that cheapo me was just trying to make sure that I wasn't wimping out by going to the doctor! I usually tough stuff out...but this is getting harder to tough out. Why is it that Mother's feel guilty by going to the doctor, but we wouldn't feel guilty at all for taking our husbands or kids!?! Thanks for all of your comments. I will keep you posted on the report! So far we haven't been able to get me into the one that my Mom uses. We may have to go to another one. Certainly are a lot of good ones around! Anyone know of a good one in the OK City area or the Tulsa area? We are trying to get me into Dr. Tkatch(sp?), but he is usually booked forever in advance! Sure is nice to just have you all to talk to about it! Makes me feel better and a little less guilty for needing to go in!

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), January 31, 2002.

Nan, I'm a Physician Assistant (PA-C) and I treat MANY sports injuries. The questions I ask for menisceal injuries are: Does it click, pop or give way on you. "Yes" to any of these questions raise my suspicion for a meniscus/"cartilage" injury.. When did it swell up? If immediately or withinin 5 minutes-likely a ligament--ACL or MCL usually. If it swells by the next morning it is more likely a meniscus tear. Can you do a deep knee bend or, better yet, walk like a duck on your haunches, if so-it is probably not a meniscus tear. Is there pain directly on the joint line? Which side of the knee? Is the knee "floppy" when I check the ligaments. Does the swelling act "fluid-like" or is it "tight" These are just a quick idea of what your Doctor will ask/have you do. BY ALL MEANS go to a DOc and get it examined, but you will probably have to be referred to an Ortho. E- mail me if you have any questions and I'll answer to the best of my experience.

-- Jim NE Ky (Jedeweese@earthlink.net), January 31, 2002.

Dr. & also heard about black cherry juice very helpful with knee joints.

-- DW (djwallace@sotc.net), January 31, 2002.

Ken is right about the supplement I use osteo bi flex [ any drug store carrys it] and It works wonders on me. Sure can feel it if i skip it for a couple of days though.

-- kathy h (ckhart55@earthlink.net), January 31, 2002.

As the wise ones suggest, get thee to an orthopod and ask for celebrex or vioxx and other treatments.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), January 31, 2002.

Hate to be dumb here....But...YOOOO HOOOO WISE ONES!!!! Got thee another question!!....what are all of those names of medications?...Vioxx etc....are they all basically what Ken was telling me about except for differing companies? Are they all forms of that Chondroiton stuff? Is there one like the brex thingy...can't remember the name right now...that have the combination of all of them in it?

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), January 31, 2002.

Vioxx and Celebrex are roficoxib and celecoxib, respectively. They are very similar medications and work very well, as does glucosamine, but they CANNOT take the place of an orthopedic surgeon. You can use those things before and after the Doc. My Chiropractor says to use glucosamine sulfate rather than glucosamine hydrochloride (HCl) as the glucosamine sulfate is absorbed easier into the cartilage.

-- Debbie in MO (risingwind@socket.net), January 31, 2002.

DW: I thought cherry juice was good for gout, which is a form of arthritis.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), January 31, 2002.

Got 2 bad knees. Go to the dr. but they don't always have all the answers. I've had both knees scope'd and they were ok for awhile but pain and creakiness does come back. But word of warning - make the doc MRI your knee b4 operating. My doc didn't and got in there and found my acl was ruptured but it was too late once he was in there...oh well.

The meniscus(sp?) is torn & clicks - they trimmed it but not much to do about that they said. They scraped arthritis but it must grow back cuz my knees have hurt so bad sometimes I can hardly walk and I'm just in my 40's (doc said I had knees of 60 yr old - must have been all those aerobic classes).

Anyway at xmas time I had a terrible pain attack in middle nite after drinking a couple of glasses of some nice red wine (don't usually drink wine). Did some research and found more info on arthritis & gout (hereditary) & purines & problems with protein metabolic disorders (these are hints to search on google).

What worked for me: raw or lightly steamed veggies & fruit & omega-3 fish like tuna. Avoid foods high in purines. Started fasting during day and then eating lightly and notice if anything starts affecting my knees. Black cherry juice helps the pain alot cuz it alkalines your system. A couple of things I can eat that seem to help - tunafish with lots of chopped celery, raw garlic, broccoli, etc. Nice way to eat raw veggies. Also, vegetarian chili with celery & yellow squash. I notice if I eat more red meat, sugar, stuff high in purines my joints get creaky and inflamed. But those raw veggies and omega-3 make inflammation and pain go away.

Sorry for being so long winded...from what I read is that for people with this metabolic issue - uric acid crystals get deposited in your joints and can cripple you up. But just try changing your diet - you might find relief within days and it's alot cheaper than vioxx - plus some of those drugs have some real nasty side effects.

Good luck!

-- cg (wrangler@jridgeranch.com), January 31, 2002.

Gout is a build up of uric acid cryatals in the joints, usually first shows up in big toe or thunb. Several ways to increase the excertion of uric acid and reduce the symptoms of gout.

Recent research on sour cherries show promise in arthritis treatment and pain management.

-- BC (desertdweller44@yahoo.com), February 01, 2002.

One of the problems with tendons and such is they have a poor blood supply. Inflamation on top of that further prolongs healing. You might want to consider taking bromelain, pineapple enyme, as an anti-inflammatory.

I've found that over time it works better than Alieve without the potential side effects. I was taking it about every four hours during the day and it healed a joint problem I had for over a year before I saw an orthopedic surgeon. He told me I'd have the problem the rest of my life. After it went away while taking bromelain four years ago, it's never reocurred.

-- Darren (df1@infi.net), February 01, 2002.

Hi Nan, Your problem sounds exactly the same as the one I had this Summer. All I could figure I did to it was trying to get on a young horse, he started off walking with my foot in the stirrup--kinda twisted my knee. Anyway, started popping--which hurt like hell when it popped-- and giving out on the leg. I limped around for a couple of months with it catching and hurting, etc. Finally tried some DMSO gel on it. Worked miracles. THEN I went to the doctor but only had an x- ray which showed nothing. As it continued to get better with the DMSO, I started walking about 20 minutes a day up a grade. Kept getting better, and I could stand to get on a horse again with it. Now, it seems pretty well except for an occasional painless pop.

But, I am a medical transcriptionist so I do know the importance of going to the doctor. I just happened to be without insurance and low on funds at the time I hurt my knee. It sounds like we both have/had a torn meniscus, I agree, or something similar. You really should go. But the DMSO may help the swelling and pain.

-- Shauna in Oklahoma (shamelesscowgirl2001@yahoo.com), February 01, 2002.

Well, you are not going to believe this....my husband called all over Tulsa and found an orthopedist that had an opening. He came home from work early and took me this afternoon. They took x-rays and they didn't show much. He has me on an anti-inflammatory! Didn't some wise people up there say that:~)! He is not sure if there is a tear in the miniscus or not, but at this point he wants to see what this will do for 6 weeks. He is pretty sure that there isn't a tear and that this will work to minimize the swelling and pain. The x-ray showed some minor arthritis, but nothing major. I am going to look for Cherry juice! It sure couldn't hurt. I am also going to check out the other less harsh treatments too. You all gave me good advice. I am still shocked that we could get me in so quickly. You don't EVEN want to know what it cost! YIKES! It is only money! What would we do with it anyway? Just pay those pesky bills! :~) heeheehee! I do have faith that if it had been something that needed immediate attention that he would have taken care of it right away. At least that is what I am counting on! :~)! Thanks you all! You all are the best!!!!!!! FRIENDS are a GOOD THING! ESPECIALLY THOU WISE ONES! Thank thee kindly!

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), February 01, 2002.

Nan:

I am amazed just x-rays were taken. They don't show soft tissue damage. An MRI is required for that. Rather sounds like he is treating the symptoms and not the cause.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), February 02, 2002.

He said that my knee felt stable. Said that he wants to try this less harsh treatment first and see if it works. He said if I don't notice improvement in a couple of weeks that he wants to see me back in. He gave me enough anti-inflammatory for 6 weeks. It does help with the pain some, although it isn't gone, it's tolerable now. There was something to what he said that made sense to me......(my hubby would say that was scarey!:~)) If it is just swelling and inflammation of the tendons, then it will react quickly to the meds. If it is worse then we will go from there. Thanks for the "wisdom", I do respect your's and the other's opinions. Especially since a lot of you have been through the same things. I do hope that it isn't a miniscus tear. We will see! Thanks for helping me out and sharing your thoughts!

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), February 02, 2002.

This sounds real familiar. My doctor at the time would write off my knee pain as tendon and ligament pain.He had X-rays taken which he said showed nothing conclusive. Aspirin and a knee brace would help and I would keep going on. Took a couple of years but I changed doctors due to insurance changes. While being examined for something else I mentioned my chronic knee pain. She sent me for an MRI which showed a miniscul tear. After an examination by the orthopedic dr. I was against surgery because I'm tough and can treat it myself. Well when the pain got real bad I called the ortho doc again, this time he was real busy and I had to wait about a month in agony. It seems the miniscul tear creates fluid which collects in a syst. My syst was under the tendons on the inside of my knee. I could not sleep and could not drive at all. When I finally got to see the ortho. either he was going to operate or I was! Beside the small holes for the arthroscopic surgery I have a large scar on the side of my knee where the syst was removed. I am now pain free and happy with my knee. Talk to the doc, get an MRI, and if you need surgery to repair the problem if you feel confident with the doc do it. Being in pain is not necessary and doesn't make you tough or a better person.

-- Emil (eprisco@usit.net), February 03, 2002.

Nan, I'm glad to hear that you are seeing a doctor about this. The longer you wait, the more scarring can take place. I'm also suprised that the doc didn't have a look in there. With a month of pain, I'd be wondering. I guess he knows what he is doing. As was mentioned earlier, the joints have very little circulation, so they do not get medication as easily as muscle tissue does. Having had problems with my joints, I can tell you that a castor oil compress, does wonders for them. Rub warm castor oil into the joint, and place a cloth on the joint. cover with plastic. Heat with a hot water bottle, or a hot bag of rice. Do this once a month, or when it bothers you. Besides this you should try to strenthen the muscles that are around the knee, but don't cause yourself any more pain. Strenthening your muscles will relieve the strain on the joint, and allow it to heal better. You should be able to ski, or rollerskate next year without worry. Be satisfied by your doctor; if you aren't, find another one. Good luck.

-- roberto pokachinni (pokachinni@yahoo.com), February 04, 2002.

Don't worry, I will only wait a few more weeks with the pain and not enough sleep and if this medicine doesn't work I will get a second opinion! The MRI was put off because it is soooooo expensive and we are self-pay. He is hoping that because the knee felt so stable(he gave it a lot of twists and pokes and pretzel look-alikes!!!) that it is just tendon and ligament trouble. The whole time that he was examining it, it didn't do that catching thing that it has been doing! I was bummed that I couldn't get my trick knee to do it's tricks....but we will see if this works. If not, I will go see another doctor. I have too many things to take care of around this farm to be hobbling too long! I am tough to pain, but not one to like it much! It is...well.....A PAIN! heehee! :~) !!!! Thanks ya'll for caring about me! It is sure nice!

-- Nan (davidl41@ipa.net), February 04, 2002.

Nan - I hope the rest and the anti-inflammatory does the trick. When it gets to feeling better, do leg lifts (yes, just like you had to do in gym class!). The dr and physical therapists told me that this was the best exercise for strenghtening the muscles on the sides of the knee. When my knees are bothering me, I do some legs lifts. They initially feel worse but then very quickly feel better. Good luck!

-- Cindy in NY (cjpopeck@worldnet.att.net), February 07, 2002.