Strawbale for TimberFrame infill in Maine

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Greetings! I'm new to this forum but have found it to be a great resource. I am about a year or two away from building a small timber frame home (which I have a good deal of experience in doing commercially)in central Maine. My problem is this: I absolutely refuse to use stress skin panels. I have worked for a company that makes them and they are very bad news. I have given some serious thought to various enclosure systems and have come to these conclusions: Cordwood- good thermal mass, easy, native material, LOW R VALUE. Stress Skins- not an option, completely unsustainable. Cob- again, good mass, LOW R. And on and on.... It keeps coming back to strawbale which has a nice thermal mass/R-value balance but about which I have these concerns: 1.) No local straw source, have to go to Quebec. 2.) Will it hold up? I have done reams of research on strawbale structures in moist climates and know that a good structure CAN be built but I have yet to meet or talk to anyone who has firsthand experience with this in Northern New England (or areas of similar climate). I would love to hear from folks with their ideas on this question, including alternatives and possible resources. I'd love to visit some New England Strawbale Structures. Also, any ideas on sources for grants related to alternative construction methods in New England? Thanks for your help.

From the Merrimac River Watershed in NH,

Jeff

-- Jeff Cantara (jeffcantara@hotmail.com), February 01, 2002

Answers

Jeff, could you explain why you would not use SIPS? I would really like to find out as I reading about them lately, and they read great.

-- Carol K (ck7951@bluefrognet.net), February 01, 2002.

At the bottom of the question page there is a catagory named construction, could be some answers there.

-- mitch hearn (moopups@citlink.net), February 01, 2002.

My personal concerns with polystyrene based structural panels (and these are just my opinions) are: First, I can't think of anything that is further from a native material than expanded polystyrene. Granted, the R-value, structural benefits, and ease of installation are great. However to me it is important to build with materials that have a low embodied energy ( the energy that went into their manufacturing- all the way from rawest materials to delivery). An argument could possibly be made that overall household energy savings in the longrun will offset the high embodied energy quotient in panels, but energy efficiency can also be achieved with "green" materials. The same is true for the OSB (oriented strand board) sheets laminated to the foam core. High embodied energy. Yes, OSB does create a use for mill waste and low quality timber. There are some good things to be said for engineered wood products. But again, to me, personally, the bad outweighs the good. OSB is bonded with formaldehyde and other nasty solvent-based glues. Really nasty stuff. I just don't want it around me. Which brings me to my biggest health concern. The company that I was formerly employed by had employees with chronic rashes, respiratory problems and headaches due to exposure to the glue used to bond the OSB and/or sheetrock to the foam core. This despite following OSHA guidelines.

I think its great that there is such interest in timber framing and energy efficiency. I just feel that there are at least as many negatives as there are positives with panels. I know that some companies are attempting to develop danels with an ag-waste core. Might be worth looking into. Good luck in your research and I'd be interested to hear more of your thoughts on this topic.

-- Jeff (jeffcantara@hotmail.com), February 01, 2002.


Straw bales for home construction need to be made differently than those normally baled by farmers. We use three string and 42" long bales x 18" wide & high. They're also packed tighter, hence the use of three string.

Using them in wet areas of the country creates it's own problems, mainly weed growth and the obvious. We wrap the bales in 3-mil black plastic to inhibit such from occuring. We build 'em for the tribes on occasion, b/c we get the family involved and they have a good payment plan already guaranteed to us.

I agree with you on SIPS and OSB. I hate the stuff. It gives off odors, I'd rather not breathe. I'd rather have an R-45 wall than an R-30 anyday, esp where I live.

Good luck. Matt

-- matt johnson (wyo_cowboy_us@yahoo.com), February 01, 2002.


Also...http://www.cedn.org/strawbale/crashc.html references at bottom in your area too.

-- matt johnson (wyo_cowboy_us@yahoo.com), February 01, 2002.


We live in a post & beam strawbale house in NW WA, in a VERY wet county. But we don't get the deep freezing temps you get in NH. A radiant concrete slab floor -- which we only just got running last month. We used two-string bales of long wheatstraw - not chopped - nice and dry from eastern WA. About 1600 sq ft, footprint 36'x36', with the second storey about 50% of that plus an exterior deck (also above the first floor.) We had volunteers for a good bit of the bale raising, but we had a couple of paid ringers who never lost energy or enthusiasm and without whom we could not have done it. We used chickenwire and expanded metal lath. We had stucco sprayers come in and spray on cement stucco in 2 coats -- my god, did that part go fast and furious! -- while volunteers trowelled. That night, it began to rain, and didn't stop for 4 months. We have a steel roof and 30in overhangs. The inside was unplastered for 3 years. We just did it this past summer. We also did a thin coat of Thoroseal on the outside, after which I did the entire exterior colour coat of Thoroseal by hand myself. (We talkin' BUFF forearms...! The house is a deep chocolate brown, if anyone wants to know.) On the interior, we have two coats of plaster, all hand trowelled on.

Running out of money takes away your momentum,and it is hard to get it back. Try not to do that. It will cost more than the books say, if you do a code house, and it is A LOT OF WORK. All the books and videos speak so lightly of how quickly and easily it all happens "in a couple of weekends" with a bale-raising party... Don't you believe it! If I had known how much work it would be, I might not have done it. Not that I don't love my house, not that it isn't warm & beautiful & quiet & solid & better for earthquakes and fire... but then, I've never built any other house before, so maybe they're all that much work!

As for wrapping the bales in black plastic, I think that is unecessary and defeats the purpose of a breatheable house. So far, we have no evidence of mold, and like I say, this is a wet county, and we're in the woods, to boot.

One of our bale-boys lives in NY state now, and when you get closer to building it, contact me and I'll give you his number -- he knows everything about building strawbale and if you could get him to work on yours, you'd be in great shape.

As for wrapping

-- snoozy (bunny@northsound.net), February 01, 2002.


Snoozy - they're all that much work, if not more. With a stick built you just have thinner walls when you're done!

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), February 02, 2002.

Jeff, I too have been schooled in Timberframing, and on the use of stress skin panels, and I feel much the same way as you do. Not only does the environmental factors of the foam not appeal to me, neither does the 'wood' coverings. I live in sawmill central, and the way the forests are treated to create these new fashions in housing is appalling. I questioned my teachers about using other infill structures, and gave them some ca ca for not mentioning them to the class in the first place. I agree with you about the low R value of Cob; good for a mud oven, but not for insulation. I disagree with you, though, on the low R value of cordwood. If built properly a cordwood wall can have whatever R value you want, as it has insulation between the two mortar "walls". The logs can be cut at any length; the longer they are, the greater the R value. I have built structures of cordwood, but not out of straw. This is not because I don't like the idea of straw bale construction. Where they are plentiful, they are cheap. I might consider it, except that their is very little straw any where near where I am, so the price is high. Straw is easy to build, especially if you have a timberframe holding your roof up. as for thermal mass; I wouldn't say that straw bales will provide a real lot of thermal mass. They are primarilly insulative, with some thermal mass due to being compacted. If you want thermal mass, go with stone, brick, cob, or containers full of water near your heat source I have friends who built straw bale in Manitoba, and in the Rockies. they are fast to build, and as simple as legos. Get a book, just to get all the facts though. I am planning to build cordwood, because there is plenty of free salvage wood where I live, and I'm confident of a high R value. If you want some good advice and info, check out Daycreek.com. There is a lot of great info, and ideas there. Also somewhere in there is a warning about the cordwood@yahoogroups.com board. The warning is signed by many in the cordwood, and alternate matterials workshop industry, with e-mail addresses-so you can contact any of them personally, if you choose. Also, you can use your own judgement, and join the yahoo board, and listen to cordwoodguy, he is very knowledgeable, and will try to give you the best answers he can. A few last bits of advice: build your timberframe to have a serious overhang on your roof. Consider a wrap-around porch, then your bales never get rain. Moisture is your enemy. Keep your bales dry. Build a tall foundation 24" at least. Keep the rodents, and insects out of your bales at all costs. Best of luck. Let us know what you decide, and how it turns out.

-- roberto pokachinni on B.C. N.Coast (pokachinni@yahoo.com), February 04, 2002.

Unfortunately Snoozy doesn't know shit about building strawbale. She did one house, I've done thirty (30). They were designed and built in semi-arid and arid areas, so no "tyvek" or 3-mil black plastic wrap was needed. Weed growth and bugs were minimal.

I'd recommend this site http://www.bagelhole.org/article.php/Housing/143/ AL

-- al (yr2012@hotmail.com), February 11, 2002.


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