My husband was married(a very few months) before we met. At the time we were both Protestants who believed strongly in the sanctity of marriage and were troubled by the situation, but (obviously) chose to marry anyway. If I become Catholic, well, what are the ramifications of my marital status? Thanks.

-- cathy in slovenia (crossways@addall.com), February 04, 2002

Answers

It will viewed as living with a person to whom you are not married. Until the Church grants him a decree of nulity for his first attempt if it finds it to be invalid.

-- Br. Rich SFO (repsfo@prodigy.net), February 04, 2002.

1. What sort of things constitute an invalid marriage?

2. So, is it that I might as well not attempt to become Catholic unless my husband is willing to seek annulment? I could just divorce my husband, I suppose...

My original question seems awkward as I re-read it. It should state: My husband was divorced from his first wife a few months after they married. This occurred before I met him. At the time of our engagement etc.

-- cathy in slovenia (crossways@addall.com), February 04, 2002.

It is a difficult situation. I would suggest speaking with the pastor of the local Catholic church. The key to remember that to the Catholic Church a civil divorce does not break the bond of a valid Marriage. So he may not be free to marry someone else. That would mean that you cannot be married to him. You are not the only person that has found themselves in this situation. Being called into union with the Catholic Church but this unfortunate choice made 10 years ago blocks your path.

-- Br. Rich SFO (repsfo@prodigy.net), February 04, 2002.

I ask your forbearance in two areas: 1. for answering my own post :) 2. for my sarcastic remark in my last post :(

I read the archived posts on marriage/divorce/nullity. If I understand things correctly, my husband's first marriage is assumed valid unless proven otherwise because both parties were outside the Catholic church. If one of them had been Catholic, we'd be okay now, or if I had been Catholic when I married my non-Catholic husband, we'd be okay now. Hmmm. This seems, on the face of it, both illogical and 'unfair,' since we were without the counsel of the Church at the time of our marriage.

Boy, could I have used the counsel of the Church at that time, too. That was over 15 years ago, and I was living and working at a Baptist mission in inner city New Orleans. All I wanted, ALL I wanted at that time was to do God's will, and I had no authoritative input to help me. Asking pastors for advice yielded various answers, as you can imagine. The hours upon hours, literally, of anguish in prayer... not just about the previous marriage issue but about leaving what I had felt was a call to what we termed "full-time Christian service" for the role of wife and mother. Finally I did the only thing that seemed possible for me to do.

Well, that's more than you wanted to know, isn't it? LOL Anyway, back to the present, I _believe_ that Jesus Christ instituted a Church on the earth and that that Church is the Roman Catholic Church. I _believe_ that Holy Spirit inervates that Church and keeps her from error. SO, (deep breath) I consent to the teaching of the Church in this regard.

Practically speaking, what does this mean? Since from what I understand, I will have no recourse to Reconcilliation or the privilege of partaking of the Eucharist, is there any practical reason I should attempt to formally convert? Would I even be allowed to, since I don't really intend to divorce my husband or "live with him as brother and sister"?

thanks again

-- cathy in slovenia (crossways@addall.com), February 04, 2002.

I would believe that a incomplete union with the Catholic Church would be better then a total seperation. You can attend Mass and develop your spiritual life so that one day you may when circumstances allow, complete the union with the Church that you desire. One thing to remember is that even those seperated from complete union with the Catholic Church because of circumstances like these. Do have recourse to Reconciliation, Confirmation, Anointing and the Eucharist with true contrition for their past failings and sins when death is near.

-- Br. Rich SFO (repsfo@prodigy.net), February 04, 2002.

Cathy in Slovenia,

I agree with Brother Rich in that you should look into converting to the Church that Jesus instituted. But I also think that you should attempt to have a Decree of Nullity for your husband's first marriage. Please see a local pastor to ask for details on how this can occur.

-- Glenn (glenn@excite.com), February 04, 2002.

Hi, Cathy.

Your public profession of faith was very moving for me to read. God bless you for that! Welcome (at least in a preliminary way) to the Catholic Church.

Moved by "actual graces," you have obviously made some difficult decisions just to arrive at the point of recognizing the Church as founded by Jesus -- and of leaving some of your past roots behind. Because of the kind of courage you have already demonstrated, and because the Lord is on your side, I feel confident that you will continue to move ahead and overcome the remaining obstacles.

Please don't be afraid or discouraged. I encourage you to speak heart-to-heart with the man whom you love and ask him to demonstrate his love for you by making the sacrifice of seeking a Decree of Nullity -- so that you both can live with a pure soul, a clear conscience, and the spiritual nourishment of the sacraments.

Rich has given you great advice in saying that you will profit from being a Catholic -- attending Mass, sharing time with fellow parishioners, reading Catholic materials, etc. -- even during the period when you cannot participate fully. He was also right to say that you would be able to receive sacraments if in danger of death. But I hope that you will not have to wait until then. The longing in your heart to receive Jesus in your first Holy Communion will grow, as time moves slowly on.

Cathy, you stated: "If I understand things correctly, my husband's first marriage is assumed valid unless proven otherwise because both parties were outside the Catholic church. If one of them had been Catholic, we'd be okay now ...

Actually, "if one of them had been Catholic," you would not "be okay now" -- if you mean "in a valid marriage that the Church could bless without delay. If "one of them had been Catholic," chances are that the marriage would have been celebrated in a Catholic church (or outside it, but with the bishop's permission), and you would be in the same position as now. Or, if one had been Catholic and they had married outside the Church without permission, the Church would still have to look briefly into the case today before issuing a decree of nullity.

You continued "... or if I had been Catholic when I married my non-Catholic husband, we'd be okay now. Hmmm. This seems, on the face of it, both illogical and 'unfair,' since we were without the counsel of the Church at the time of our marriage."

No, you wouldn't "be okay now." If you had been Catholic when you "married" your divorced non-Catholic husband, you would be pretty much in the same situation as you are now -- hoping that he will soon be free to see your marriage blessed by the Church, after a decree of nullity. (We don't have to discuss it if you don't want to, but I can't quite see anything illogical or unfair in what you have described.)

God bless you, Cathy. I hope that you have the opportunity to enjoy the Alps.
Please come back to the forum and visit us often.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), February 04, 2002.

If I am to understand this correctly, Cathy is unable to enter the Catholic Church completely due to the fact that her husband is divorced and has not received an anullment from the Catholic Church. My confusion however is this..how is the Catholic Church able to declare a Non-Catholic marriage null? It was not preformed in a Catholic Church nor under the beliefs of the Catholic faith, so therefor where does the judgement of whether it is valid or not stand in the hands of the Catholic Priests? I am a Catholic myself and am curious and concerned at the level of judgement our faith both practices and accepts. I try to teach my children that to judgge is wrong, that is the responsibility of God, however the go to church and CCD and are taught that it is right to believe they are the only correct religion. Just where are the lines here? Rhonda

-- Rhonda (rstrudell@cablespeed.com), February 17, 2002.

Rhonda:
Maybe you have this backwards. In fact, the Catholic panel which judges the request for annulment will determine if a non-Catholic wedding was GOOD. The marriage might be binding. Far from the Church pronouncing a non-Catholic matrimony INVALID, it might judge the matrimony BINDING. Which would necessarily make an annulment impossible. If the Church were merely neutral, you could do as the ocassion called for. The Catholic Church considers matrimony binding for life.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 17, 2002.

Eugene, Ok.. I am a little clearer in the fact that the Catholic Church does not tear down a protestant marriage but find it a true marriage.

You said " The Catholic Church considers matrimony binding for life." Why then does the Catholic Church NOT recognize a marriage outside of the church? Here's a circumstance that makes me wonder though.. If two Catholics marry outside the Catholic Church, this is not a recognized marriage, so therefor does not require anything but a reaffirming of faith and Reconciliation of the wrong doing. So if this is true, then where is the "Christianty" in saying that if the Catholics go against what they KNOW is wrong all they have to do is say they are sorry, but when two people who do not have the guidance of our faith want to join us in our family, we refuse due to an act they thought was true and right??? We do not recognize a marriage outside of the church when it is one of our own, but if it means allowing others to join we have to scrutinize?

Rhonda

-- Rhonda (rstrudell@cablspeed.com), February 17, 2002.

Someone has misled you, Rhonda.
The Catholic Church recognizes the possible validity of two sacraments celebrated by non-Catholic/non-Orthodox Christians -- Baptism and Marriage.

Any time a person has gone through any kind of wedding ceremony (Christian or non-Christian, whether according to Catholic canonical form or not) with a person who is still alive, those two people cannot attempt marriage to anyone else without first obtaining a Decree of Nullity, issued by a bishop after the work of a marriage tribunal.

I know of a Catholic man and woman who attempted marriage before a court-appointed officer. Later, it was necessary for one of them to apply for a Decree of Nullity. The Church had to verify, through written testimony, that at least one of the two people had really remained Catholic at the time of the wedding -- which made the "union" invalid, due to failure to follow Canon Law.

When non-Catholic Christians marry, they are assumed to have celebrated the Christian sacrament of Marriage. Most people don't know that the Church recognizes the couple themselves as those who celebrate the Sacrament. (It does not matter that the minister is not validly ordained, as he/she is usually just a legal witness, rather than a "celebrant.") I believe that it is even possible, under very special circumstances, for a Christian couple to marry each other without any witness -- or for a Catholic couple to marry each other before a non-ordained witness appointed by their bishop (e.g., a catechist or nun in a mission territory).

So, since Catholicism recognizes the potential validity of non-Catholic Christian marriages, it happens often that the Church's tribunals are called upon to determine whether a union was null or valid.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), February 17, 2002.

John, Where can I find the canonical law for the Catholic Church?

What I am understanding you to say is that ANY marriage, be it Catholic or Protestant, married in or out of the Catholic Church, is concidered a true marriage. Is this correct? This is of course disbarring all other factors that go into this (have they been married before, etc.)

How then can the Catholic faith say that if one is a practicing Catholic and one is not that the union is invaid due to failer to follow canonical law?

I can understand where Cathy said "If one of them had been Catholic, we'd be okay now." Her understanding was that if he (her current husband) had been a practicing Catholic, his marriage would have been invalid due to failer to follow canonical law. Other than the above discussed factors, what does the Catholic Church base it's decissions on for an annulment?

Rhonda

-- Rhonda (rstrudell@cablspeed.com), February 17, 2002.

John, I received information from another thread from here. Under "I received an annulment from my first marriage.."

A reply was made.. The question revolves around did he leave the Catholic Faith and become a Methodist? It would be best if he discussed the details of this with your pastor. It could be a simple matter of canonical Form or it could be much more involved.

-- Br. Rich SFO (repsfo@prodigy.net), January 31, 2002.

I appologize if I made assumption that were wrong.

Rhonda

-- Rhonda (rstrudell@cablspeed.com), February 17, 2002.

Hi Rhonda You understood my point exactly. What I was saying is that if everything else remained the same (place of marriage, etc) yet had my husband (or the woman involved in the ceremony) been Catholic, however minimally, we could reasonably expect a speedy resolution and Decree of Nullity, as the union would be considered, on its face invalid. Since all parties involved are outside the Catholic church, the ceremony is considered, as it stands, valid. My husband must prove to the satisfaction of a tribunal that there was on the day of the ceremony some impediment to a valid marriage. Until and unless he does that, I am daily in a state of mortal sin (adultery). Since I am unwilling to leave my husband or deny him conjugal rights, I am unable to participate in the sacrament of Reconcilliation, and without Reconciliation, I am unable to receive Communion.

This is my understanding. That said, I do not consider the situation "unfair," nor will I let it draw me away from the Church. It is a weight, certainly, but I cannot change the past. I mentioned the situation to my husband (I've casually spoken of my interest in joining the Catholic Church before). He feels that we have no choice but to remain Protestant. I was despondent, but some phrases from the New Testament came to mind: If I can but touch the hem of his garment..., Even the dogs are permitted to eat the crumbs that fall from the table..., and today, the reply of the disciples when Jesus asked if they too would leave Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

-- cathy in slovenia (crossways@addall.com), February 18, 2002.

Rhonda and Cathy,
I think that you now have pretty firm grasp of the whole situation
Rhonda, you asked a few questions:

(1) "Where can I find the canonical law for the Catholic Church? ... Other than the above discussed factors, what does the Catholic Church base its decisions on for an annulment?"
I could give you a URL to the whole Code of Canon Law, which covers many subjects (marriage included). But I wouldn't recommend it as a starting point for you, because it has many passages containing technical language that are very difficult to understand, unless one has attended a graduate course specially designed to prepare canon lawyers. I would rather recommend to you a more "popular language" site, which has many Q&A on this subject, prepared by a priest who works on a marriage tribunal. I'll send you to a page at that site which will answer your question about what can cause a union to be invalid. Then you can click on other subjects (on the right), if you wish to look at more pages.

(2) "What I am understanding you to say is that ANY marriage, be it Catholic or Protestant, married in or out of the Catholic Church, is considered a true marriage. Is this correct? This is of course disbarring all other factors that go into this (have they been married before, etc.)"
Each marriage is assumed to be valid until the contrary is proved. Canon Law says it this way: "Marriage enjoys the favor of law. Consequently, in doubt, the validity of a marriage must be upheld until the contrary is proved."

(3) "How then can the Catholic faith say that if one is a practicing Catholic and one is not that the union is invalid due to failure to follow canonical law?"
I think that you are clear on this now, but, if not, please let me know.

Cathy, you wrote: "My husband must prove to the satisfaction of a tribunal that there was on the day of the ceremony some impediment to a valid marriage. Until and unless he does that, I am daily in a state of mortal sin (adultery). Since I am unwilling to leave my husband or deny him conjugal rights, I am unable to participate in the sacrament of Reconciliation, and without Reconciliation, I am unable to receive Communion. This is my understanding."
Yes, your understanding is correct, but a bit incomplete. You see, the man you love is also "daily in a state of mortal sin," and, in my opinion, he should want to help both of you to regain your justification, returning to a state of sanctifying grace. Although he would dispute it, you might be open to admitting that he does not yet actually have "conjugal rights." (Sorry if that jarred you, but I felt that I had to say it out of "tough love.")

Cathy, you also wrote: "I mentioned the situation to my husband (I've casually spoken of my interest in joining the Catholic Church before). He feels that we have no choice but to remain Protestant."
Cathy, he cannot prevent you from becoming a Catholic. You are not obliged to remain Protestant. I know that some people in your situation, while attending Mass, reading Catholic literature, etc., nevertheless wait until the spouse is ready to join the Church as a family. What I don't understand is why your husband would not agree to go through the nullity process, knowing that it would mean so much to the woman he loves. I realize that it would be a humbling experience to reveal private matters to clergymen of a different faith, but I think that he might be willing. Maybe it will help for you to go to the page (linked above) that I provided to Rhonda.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), February 18, 2002.