I visit this page often, but don't normally have much to post. I do, however, feel moved to share the following with you:

I went out to eat with my parents this evening, and wound up getting my feelings CRUSHED again by my dear old dad. I should have expected it, since I have been dealing with this for the past 34 years. I have adored my father all the years of my life, and have only wanted from the bottom of my heart to have acceptance and approval by him.

I had had a wonderful day and just wanted to share my experiences with him. As usual, (and I should have known) he hardly gave me the time of day, and directed all of his attention to a 17 year old idiot living in a fantasy world. In all my life, I have never had as an intense conversation with my dad, and probably never will, as he did with a kid who invited himself to sit down at our table. To top this off, he had never even met this kid before tonight. It was my dad's way of ignoring me, and his attempt to try to knock me back down.

With all that said, here are a couple of ways to RUIN YOUR CHILD'S SELF ESTEEM. After 34 years of this treatment, I should know:

Never, never give praise, especially if they have really achieved something grand in their own eyes.

Never listen to them. If you do listen, just act like you are listening, and then change the subject before they finish talking. This is better done when you can change the subject to a topic that nit picks something about them. Another good way not to listen is to wait until they done speaking and say "Huh? I don't know what you are talking about."

Tell them you "Don't have time to talk", and then walk away.

Nit pick and criticize every thing they do in the world. Really pick on the little things, and do it often. If you do this all the time, they will learn to do it your way, then nit pick the way you taught them.

Verbally abuse them if you get the chance. Include these popular phrases: 'You dont have a brain in your head, do you?', 'You're too stupid to come in out of the rain' and 'You are just plain worthless.' Salt your conversation with curse words for greater effect.

Never allow yourself to become affectionate with your kids. Hold them at bay if you can.

Never, and I mean NEVER, do anything fun or any activity that my be construed as fun, with your children. If you do, make their time miserable by nit picking them. If some fun does occur, ruin the fun immediately and make them responsible.

If you have other children, pick one favorite child, and then exclude them from any part of this list.

Remember ALL of their faults and failures, and remind them often. This includes all the stuff they did when they were 3. This info is still valid years later.

Always make them feel responsible/guilty for anything that goes wrong, even if they had nothing to do with it.

When their friends come over, act like you really, really approve of the friends, give them praise and talk/play with them. Exclude your own child and act like they are the unwanted runt of the family. Ridicule your own child in front of the other kids if you like.

Tell embarrassing stories about your kids to all your family members, neighbors, friends, especially if they are present.

Chastize every decision they make. This is different from nit picking because you really have something to criticize them about.

Whenever your child expresses an opinion, criticize them for it and take the other side, just to show them that they are wrong.

Always take 'the other side' if you are forced into conversation with your kids. If they say 'white', you say 'black'.

Make them feel the burdens you carry in your life, such as the mortgage, the junky car you drive or the bad job you have. Let them know that they are the reason for these problems.

If they have problems in life, first criticize or punish them, then ask them "Why should I care?".

Pretend that you could have a great relationship with you kids, but place unrealistic goals or unachievable standards between you and them. It is the old 'pie in the sky' routine.

I am sure there is more to this list, but this should give you a good start. Remember to consult this list at any time.

Just please remember to ride them hard. The harder the better. For any reason under the sun. Ignore them. Ride 'em some more. Make them feel like they have no sense of worth. Get back on and ride 'em again. Ride 'em til they don't want to live anymore.

-- jj (dontcareto@say.com), February 08, 2002

Answers

What an eye-opening list jj. I feel so badly for you that you have had to endure this kind of treatment from someone who is supposed to love you. I have perssonally seen the effects of some of these things and I know how painful it can be. I hope you are able to see past all of these negatives and have learned to see the good in yourself. Each one of us has positive qualities, no matter what others might say. I will keep you in my prayers and will think about this post. God Bless you.

-- Melissa in SE Ohio (me@home.net), February 08, 2002.

jj, I can certainly give you understanding and cyber hugs. How painful it is to know, in his/her/their(5 different people for me) eyes you'll never be good enough. And on top of all that, my mom's best friend in her last several years was less that 2 years older than me and her friend's children were so perfect. When my mom died, I didn't necesarily mourn her passing so much as I mourned the loss of any possible mother-daughter relationship.

But the good news is that God loves us and we are all special to him each in "our" own way. The best way to handle our painful lives, is to forgive, and go on in God's Grace. Forgiveness or even the willingness to forgive will help you hold your head up high, stand tall and prove them wrong-not for prideful reasons, but simply because they are wrong. If you don't forgive, you'll most likely become just like your dad. BTW, even when you prove them wrong, chances are they'll never acknowledge it.

There's something unique and wonderful inside of you that he/they can't handle. Be yourself and remember, you're not responsible for their behavior. God bless you and e-mail me if you need encouragement

-- Cindy (SE. IN) (atilrthehony@hotmail.com), February 08, 2002.

JJ, It sound like you are speaking to my mother, I finally just walked away, I do not know where she is buried nor do I care to know. That cured the problem for me.

-- mitch hearn (moopups@citlink.net), February 08, 2002.

How sad that your father is so angry and so unhappy that he has to take it out on you. Some parents pick a scapegoat child and vent all their anger/pain on that child, as well as picking the child who will be the caretaker. (read stuff on this) My father was a very critical man as well and it wasn't until I was in my twenties with children of my own that I learned his mother told him every day how much trouble he was and how horrible her life was from before birth until the day she died. Dad passed that on to me, I'll never forget the day he told me "I was to stupid to be alive", but I proved him wrong! After I understood that I began to understand him and did not allow him to mess with my head. I also realized I needed to not pass it on to my kids. He mellowed with age but never really knew the impact he had on me.

The thing you need to do now is understand that this is the way your dad will be the rest of your life and that he is wrong. We spend our lives trying to live up or down to everyone else's expectations without realizing it. The next time you see your dad and he begins to rag on you know he is wrong and don't let him get under your skin. A reaction is what he's looking for. All of the things you talk about you have control over. You can choose to not allow him to make you miserable, try it, you'll be surprised how well it will work and may help to stop the abuse. Good luck to you, my heart goes out to you, been there, done that.

-- BetsyK (betsyk@pathwaynet.com), February 08, 2002.

You must be my long lost sister/brother (couldn't tell from you post) cause I swear we have to have the same father...LOL.

One thing that has helped me..and this sounds maybe cold and not as easy to do as it sounds..but...there comes a time in your life when you just have to get over it. Just realize that this is the way he is and NOTHING is going to change it. Be grateful you are now an adult and you don't HAVE to be under his thumb and you now have the "choice" to be hurt or not to be hurt. You can let it effect you forever...or learn from the mistakes he made with you and move on to being a better person than he is -- to break the chain! You have the ability to choose what type of person you want to be in spite of his heart crushings -- not because of them.

You can't stay bitter forever. You have to remember that he obviously is a very miserable, very frustrated person and HE the one who missed out on a wonderful life with wonderful child and he has to live with that for all eternity. Someday he will realize what we wasted.

You on the other hand have a wonderful opportunity to become a loving, compassionate person AND to not make those same mistakes with your children.

Another thing, there are some people who just screw up! They don't mean to, but for some reason they just do. Give him the benefit of the doubt that, although he is terribley wrong, he is still doing the best he can with what he knows. I never believed it then, but I think probably my father was was genuinely trying to make me into a strong, self-sufficient person -- he was just doing about it all wrong, but didn't know any other way to do it.

Best wishes. I will pray for your heart to be healed and a better relationship with your father.

-- Karen (mountains_mama@hotmail.com), February 08, 2002.

Dear JJ, I am not very good with words when someone is hurting as you are but I did want to share one thing with you. I am a big reader and one of my favorite books is by John Trent and Gary Smalley titled "The Gift of the Blessing". Your letter could be a case study for this book!

It deals mostly with passing a blessing down to your children and how to do that on a daily basis. However, we were once children as well and if we didn't get that blessing from our parents as children, we continue looking for it into adulthood. The book does a wonderful job of addressing this as well. Sadly, due to whatever factors in our parents lives, some of us may never get that blessing. The authors address that as well and how with the help of God you can overcome the pain, anger and bitterness that may be there and find forgiveness and peace with your situation.

Amazon has this book, possibly your public library as well. I would be happy to send you a copy if you want. It would be definitely worth your time to read.

My heart aches for you.

Connie

-- wife of chuck in md (woah@mission4me.com), February 08, 2002.

I can't really add anything to the wisdom you and others have already shared, except to say I understand every word. And in my case, I'm an only child. I have to admit that I have never missed my mother, despite the fact that she has been dead for 12 years. I never fully realized the damage she had done until she was gone and I felt a profound sense of relief. All we can really do is say to ourselves "He/she had it wrong, and I won't pass it on to the next generation." I'm reading a book right now that is helping greatly. I usually don't get on the bandwagon of the latest talk-show guru, but Dr. Phil Mcgraw has a great book out called "Self Matters". In it, he leads you through exercises that help you understand how you became the person you are. Believe me, the way your father has treated you has had an impact, probably a negative one. Dr. Phil's book will help you recognize the ways, and change them into positive, healthy attitudes. I am a Christian, and I do believe that forgiveness and grace have a big part in how we react to toxic people, but we also sometimes need help in reaching down inside ourselves and rescuing the authentic person we could be. All of us who have been injured by those who are supposed to love and nurture us know what you are feeling. God bless you, JJ.

-- melina b. (goatgalmjb1@hotmail.com), February 08, 2002.

For what it is worth, my Mother once told me that praising your children makes them weak. *sigh* She really let me know how dissapointed in me she was, last time she was here. I love her dearly, but I don't live in her area, so we mostly keep in touch by phone. I miss her but it really is easier if I can put the phone down when I need to. *sigh*

Personally, I ADMIRE my kids accomplishments.

-- zzzzzzzzz (zzzzzzzzzzzz@zzzzzz.com), February 08, 2002.

My Mother is & has been a very mean & bitter & abusive woman----she has set a perfect example of what I never want to be like!!!! And I have tried really hard to not make the same mistakes /she did raiseing her children!! I tell my daughter /as often as I can that I love her & how proud I am of her---because I never heard anything but mean & crule insults!! And I also really do love my daughter & I am proud of her!! I also tell my grandchildren how wonderful they are & I praise them & tell them/ I love them each time I see them & I hug them & (I would kiss them---but they are going through that young boy thing that they don't want to be kissed--ha!) My hubby was adopted & everyday of his life his adopted Mother told him he was a Bastard child who ought to kiss her feet for giveing him a home----& she adopted him /for him to take care of her---which we did--- & the last many years she had Alzheimers & as I fed her & changed her daipers & met all her needs--she told me how much she loved me---but what a bitch she had for a daughter-in-law!! (of coarse I was the DIL) ha!! I praise God for the sense of humor he gave me to laugh at the mean/ hurting things that have been said to us by our parents--- And I praise God /we know him & his forgivness!!!!! And we can use those horrible experiences to love instead of hate--- There is no way I can even understand how much hate & unhappiness our parents have in them or had in them!!! They used the excuse they had a bad childhood-----well I don't have to be like them & blame it on my childhood/ as many have said---we can break the chain!!!!!!!! jj--you are a wonderful person loved by God & loved by all of us who understand where you are comming from!!!! Just live life the way you know it should be-----& remember you are loved--by those who really matter in life---(not always the ones we want to be accepted by--ha!) You are SPECIAL!!!! And don't ever forget it!!!

-- Sonda in Ks. (sgbruce@birch.net), February 08, 2002.

JJ, for what it is worth, Sondra has a point. Your fathers behavior reflects on himself only. My husband could never understand how much I love him, possibly because HIS father favored his other children. He didn't even come to our wedding! My husband is honest, kind, intelligent, hard-working, God-fearing, a wonderful father and a good man, but in his eyes he isn't much because his father TOLD him he isn't much! I really wish he would believe the kids and I instead of a bitter old man! When your father sounds off, he is indulging in his love of hurting others, and you are a handy (and easy) target!

-- zzzzzzzz (zzzzzzz@zzzz.com), February 08, 2002.

If I didn't know better, I would think that you are writing about my mother! It's amazing! The poor woman has been dead for over 18 months and I have yet to mourn her. Aas my sister said after the funeral--we NEVER have to come back there again!

I guess that if we get anything out of our experiences, we learn how to be NOT like that!

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), February 08, 2002.

How incredibly brave and courageous you are, jj! You are a true survivor, as are all the others who responded. "To thine own self be true..." You don't need ANYONE'S approval, outside of yourself, not even a parent's approval. You ARE strong and you WILL make it. Just listen to your OWN heart. I don't think we came into this world to simply please our parents, especially when it's impossible. Live for YOU, not anyone else. Blessings and love to you....

-- Bonnie (51940@aeroinc.net), February 08, 2002.

It sounds to me as if you need to do two things: Go get a sturdy pillow and spend at least a half an hour kicking it and throwing it and punching it...then you need to sit down and have a good cry..mourn what COULD have been,not what was. As an adult, somehow you must come to the conclusion that YOUR worth as a human being has ZERO to do with your father. I despised my mother for the first 42 years of my life...she was your fathers' evil twin. At that point in my life, I decided to try to look at her instead of our relationship. I tried to actually SEE her as another human being, NOT how I wanted her to be, but what she WAS in reality. Cold, unfeeling, belitteling, harping, status seeking, angry bitter person. For the first time, ever, I actually felt sorry for her because I reliased that I was NONE of those things. I listed ALL the things I liked about myself, and did NOT throw in anything I did not like about myself.Actually wrote them out on paper. I tried to list things I liked about her and came up with only one" occasionally, she has a good sense of humor. Now, I then asked myself, "why is it important to YOu to have this person's approval"? It was only then that I understood that she does not define MY life or who I am...I was constantly hoping that she would finally SEE that I was a person of value...you cannot get what a person doesn't have to give. She is incapable of giving love and affection and self-esteem to anyone, even HERSELF. Please try to look at your father as you would a stranger..it is easier to undertand that just as you wouldn't need the stranger to give you atta-boys to feel good about yourself, you don't need them from him either. I finally told my mother two years ago that unless she has something positive to tell me, do not communicate with me at all..if I want to get beaten up, I'll go elsewhere..haven't heard from her. I define who I am, she does not because she CAN'T......hope this helps somewhat. Look at all the other nice folks on the forum who can obviously relate to how you feel!!!!!! I'll bet your father wouldn't like US either....God bless you and keep you because His love never fails...ever.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), February 08, 2002.

OK, I have a question. If there are two parents and one is akin to your description, and the other is not, what can the other parent do to counteract the abuse, short of leaving? For example, if the abusive parent is normal in all other ways and not necessarily an evil person? Should the other parent build the children up? Too many times I see the other parent backing the abusive one up and pitching in. So sad to know that some people have to knock others down to make themselves feel bigger and more worthwhile.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), February 09, 2002.

I would not stay with a spouse who emotionally abused their children. If they refused to get help with their behavior, I would take my children and leave. You do not get a second chance at raising your children. Both of my parents were abusive..my father was the epitome of the drunken alcoholic in a rage and my mother stood by and did nothing except instruct my brother and I to "not annoy him"..annoying him could be as easy as breathing in and out, so that sure was no help. At my fathers' funeral in 1983, one of his sisters came up to me and said that all the years she had known my brother and I, she had often asked my father if she and her husband could adopt us, since it was obvious that we were not wanted or loved by either parent. Amazing. The permanent damage done to a child by either physical or emotional abuse is so intense and far-reaching that I cannot for the life of me understand how one "good" parent could remain in a relationship with a person who tortures the children. IMHO, there is no excuse at all.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), February 09, 2002.

In answer to Rebekah------I'm old /so my Dad did not divorce my Mother--as back in those days the Father NEVER got the children---so he stayed with my Mother & also my Mohter should have been committed to a mential health center-----but back in those days my Dad was afraid he would not be given the children----so he moved my mother closer to 2 of her sisters thinking that would help----

I believe I'm more comfortable with men--because I was raised with them!!! I was with my Dad in the pasture checking cattle--doing chores/ or farming----or with him as he drove a truck--or just escapeing on my horse somewhere to get away from my very abusive Mother!!

I have been told by many people /that women don't see me as a "threat"--& men are all very comfortable with me & most think of me like a sister---I'm an "easy keeper"-- I'm not a high maintance person!

I think those things come from me being always with my Dad!! I was with my Dad as he lived with my Mother & did so---so that he was able to raise us children!

My older sister is a very passive person & did what ever my Mother said--my Mother found she was able "to buy" my sister---so she did & has always---my sister still is not able to make a decision with out Mother-- & is waiting for Mother to die so she can have her home & everything she owns--her name is on Mothers bank account & she has access to what she wants when ever she wants it---she never realized she could have done better on her own----

I divorded my first husband as I chose a man who treated me like my Mother did-- I guess it was a "familar spirit" I knew!! He was not a good father----

Sometimes we get sucked in--- & have to step back & see why we do what we do!!!

I married my first husband to get out of a really bad situtation---& he was the only man/ my Mother approved of----well DAH-- 35 years later when I look back on it /I can see why I married him & stepped into another bad-situtation!!

So some try their best to off-set the abuse of the other parent--- some divorce & some are still fighting to get out---I think we have to try to understand where people are & why they are doing what they are doing at that stage in their life-----

My Father-in-law drank to cope with my abusive MIL---which was not a great help to the children!! Did that make sense????? Sonda

-- Sonda in Ks. (sgbruce@birch.net), February 09, 2002.

Lesley & I were posting at the same time--when I posted mine--there was Lesley's post--- I don't want my post to sound like I don't agree with Lesley---just a different take on the same situtation---- I am friends with Lesley & I always appreciate her & respect her opinions---so dind't want my post that I was posting at the same time she was to sound like I don't agree with her---or is rebutting what she said-- just explaining---Sonda

-- Sonda in Ks. (sgbruce@birch.net), February 09, 2002.

Well, for what it's worth, my Mom let my step-Dad run us down constantly. I don't even want to think about the crap he told us. And she didn't stop him very often. I guess she must have had poor self esteem too, but it has been hard to understand why she allowed it.

-- Rebekah (nomail@thanx.net), February 09, 2002.