A Few Positve Ideas

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Freedom! self reliance : One Thread

All the discussion on this group about Countryside's sad history reminds me the need to do something besides complain.

First: hopefully, no one who posts here still suscribes to Countryside, but if you do, please stop. We may not be many, but many as we are we need to hurt Ken & Co. as bad as we can and one way is to take away as much revenue from Countryside as we can.

Second: I agree that it is tempting to go read all the nice useful rural info over at Countryside forum and just lurk. But when you do that you rob this forum and others like it of the same useful questions and discussions.

Third: Subscribe to and support Backwoods Home Magazine. They support freedom and do not discourage the little guy. Compare that to Countyside's phony "garden and small stock journal" byline, then see them turn their forum over to the dictatorship a a rich jerk with a 900 acre cattle farm in Tennessee. I don't know about you all, but my problems making a living on 12 acres of paid for in blood swamp don't relate very much to a jet set, double dipping, military retiree party boy like Ken who takes month long vacations to Eastern Europe.

Fourth: when people are nice enough to post interesting articles here we would do well to appreciate their effort and not append a ten page catfight over misinterpretions and irrelevancies following each article. Disent, reasoned discourse, analysis, are all fine, but senseless petty wrangling is not. Doreen sets a great tone of open minded discussion for this forum. If we maintain that tone we will have a great forum.

Fifth: Each of you have a valuable viewpoint, experience, and information: I personally thank you for what you have posted.

And finally I want to make my own post, not just sign on to someone else's thread, to say how delighted I am to read a post from Joel Rosen again. Joel is a real American in the spirit of the framers of our now long dead Constitution. Hooray for Joel Rosen--long may he post.

-- Rags in Alabama (RaggedReb@aol.com), February 08, 2002


I always thought the CS forum had NOTHING to do with the mag. SO,,your saying dont come into LUSENT forums at all,, since thats where the CS forum is. HMMMMmm,, INtersting idea.

And by the way,,IM glad Joel is posting again,, gets some non thinkers to start using the unused organ again

-- Stan (sopal@net-port.com), February 08, 2002.

Rags: Being a long time very active participant of the CS forum I think your suggestion to boycott the magazine is absurd. I know several have done it. Thats their choice. Just as its the choice of all of us to either participate in their forum or any others.

Since I don't recall your presence there on CS when all the hoopla was going on I have to say it was VERY disruptive when all the political and religious posts started taking over the forum. Prior to that the posts and contributors were consistantly topical, helpful and supportive, but then it degenerated. There were alot of hurt feelings and some out-and-out nastiness in the form of viruses and hacking going on, most often directed to those of the more liberal persuasion. The forum was self destructing from within, much like the forum on BWH became a forum for mean spirited sniping and insulting posts from folks who seem to delight in being disruptive rather than being helpful---all in the name of free speech of course.

CS is not a political or religious publication. Its about homesteading. BWH IS more political.

As far as I'm concerned Ken has a tough job on CS because he's invariably gonna piss someone off when he exercises his judgement and tries to remain topical to the subject of homesteading. Thats especially true these days because the forum has grown so much with so many new posts and people there. Homesteading and self sufficiency is why I went there to begin with and thats why I go there now.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), February 08, 2002.

John, Rags certainly was at CS during all the hoopla, just not as vocal as some folks were. In 1999, I complained to the CS folks that I didn't like the way the forum was heading...too much un- homesteading stuff and too many inane posts such as "What's your sign" and "Why do men pee standing up"..maybe those were examples from 2000..I don't recall exactly, but you get my drift. The editor e- mailed me an answer saying that ALL posts were appropriate, and if I didn't like some I was free not to read them..here's a quote: "CS Forum is not a venue for censorship." Ok....then all of a sudden, Ken was "appointed" or self-appointed moderator, ONLY to "organize the various topics so that they would be more easily located"..remember THAT quote from himself? "I have no intention of censoring any posts>" Kinda like Clinton saying "I did NOT have sex with that woman."..Joel called Ken on it and the games began. Exit Joel...a short time later, all of a sudden, we Christians were told by Ken that we were to leave God out of our posts because it had nothing to do with homesteading. If someone asked why we became homesteaders and someone answered "Because I felt led by Christ" the entire forum erupted into savage replies such as "Why can't you Christians shut up and leave God out of your responses?"...I took exception to that and asked Ken publically why he was deleting Christian responses all of a sudden, but when someone posted that "May the God of the Indian Nation Smile upon you" that was left in. Ken deleted my question in toto. When someone else posted asking Ken why he had deleted my thread, he responded by saying that I could go play in another sandbox if I didn't like the way he was doing things. I wrote Dave B. a civil letter and he responded in a civil manner, essentially echoing Ken. I cancelled my subscription, as I told Dave, because I do not wish to fund a group of folks who say ONE thing. i.e. "We will never censor posts" and then do another (ALL references to Christianity are deleted!)...Ken obviously has a deep problem with religious fervor of a Christian nature, but happily makes exceptions for all others. The editors, who are adamantly against "religious" topics, in the last CS magazine i received in 2000, displayed a homestead which had a ring of stones for worshiping mother earth..how quaint. It typified their duplicity IMHO and sealed the thought of never even reading their magazine again. Two-faced bigoted folks are never going to get a penny from me. I do not expect that all others agree with me, just as you obviously disagreed with Rags. Those folks who believe it is reasonable to delete a post requesting prayer for a dying mother, certainly should continue to post at CS forum..they have lots of company there...here, you'll find few sympathizers. CS magazine is a non-entity IMHO and I support those who refuse to contribute to a bunch of obvious anti-Christians.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), February 09, 2002.

I understand your points Lesley and you make them well. I remember too the no censoring position taken early on, then reversed later. Don't you think it was getting out of hand tho, to cause the reversal? What I don't remember is when did Ken actually arrive on the scene? I don't remember his presence at all when I first started going there.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), February 09, 2002.

I can only speak of what I know or probably a more accurate phrase is--how I perceived the situation. Ken was around the forum from it's conception. I think he was the top of the list for posts and replies although he steered clear of mine for quite sometime. He had some ties to the Berlanger's many years before the forum thru visits to Wisconsin and Countryside get togethers. When the creator of the forum, Steve, split with the family for whatever reasons he left a void that no other family member felt compelled to fill. I remember Dave tried but he quickly decided it was to much work. IMHO, Countryside is a golden Cash Cow that only requires probaly 5 hours total work per family a month to publish. I'm sure it took much more time in the old days but that was then and this is now. Software and subcontractors have replaced long hours. Read the fine print and you'll see what I mean. Who really writes Countryside ? People like you and me ! I could rehash all the ugly words and my feelings on Ken's sexual preferences but it was a weak minded approach then and it would be even weaker today. Let's face it, I dropped the ball. I lost my temper and looked pretty ignorant in the process. My best arguement was, and always has been--if you don't like the topic than DON"T READ IT ! So many people try to act like someone jumped thru the moniter and has a gun at their head saying " read it or I'll kill you and respond or I'll burn down your house " I am the cheif of sinners so no one get offended. It took me many hours to learn this thing has an off button and many weeks to discover that there is life beyond the internet. I'll close by saying that I'm proud of Doreen for starting this forum and I'm proud of each and everyone of you for supporting her. I think you made the most adult intelligent choice there was to make given you were given no choice. If you choose to boycott Countryside please do it for your own reasons and not on my account. Today's little secret is that my wife still reads Countryside out of the mailbox and she made it very clear to me that my little virtual war would not claim her subscription as collateral damage.

-- Joel Rosen (JoelnBecky@webtv.net), February 09, 2002.

I forgot--Rags, if you really are in need of a little war of attrition than have I got a plan for you. It seems that Ken's authority has one small flaw. NO line item veto ! It seems that to delete a reply he has to delete the entire thread. That by itself doesn't mean much until you remember a sheep from England. You remember ? A clone. Like Joel681@webtv.net SecretaryofWar@webtv.net JoelnBecky@webtv.net all are easily duplicated thru yahoo--hotmail and countless others. Ken deletes any thread with a reply from me, I post a reply at night and the next day the whole thread is wiped. Never let it be said that Joel does not try to be helpful ! It ain't no plane in the tower but it would be a sucker punch !

-- Joel Rosen (JoelnBecky@webtv.net), February 09, 2002.

This is my take from my small input. We were betrayed. We all agreed that we could post pretty much whatever we wanted as long as we were respectful and not vulgar, then all of a sudden we-the Christians were censored. I posted a lot-started a few running threads-Over-the-fence chat was my idea although I used Kens title because I liked it. I also had personal e-mails with the editor that went nowhere, but at least I had my say. After I left, I cancelled my 3 year subscription and seen one since. I do miss learning, but I can't bring myself to lower my standards. Occasionall I'll go to the archives for something important, and I looked at the forum once and that was certainly bad timing. I couldn't believe the disgusting stuff that was there. Had absolutely nothing to do with homestading.

I used to get Backwoods Home but their jokes got a bit much.

-- Cindy (SE. IN) (atilrthehony@hotmail.com), February 09, 2002.

I subscribe to BWH. I cancelled my subscription to Cside. Didn't get a refund, but an invite for renewal, then I wrote a much less than irritated, but disdainful letter to the folks and received my refund. I had cooled off awhile!

Their comments about not being political or religious only apply when you are talking about blood bought born again Christians, and firm hard line individualist Constitutional politics. They have every right to shoot themselves in the foot, and in my opinion have done a good job of it. But with the advent of the thouroughly dumbed down, "we like safety more than freedom or personal responsibility" mentality, they are growing. So be it. I have no time for them because I am at war, and they aren't the real enemy, they are just the folks that allow the enemy to prosper. I sure won't help to enslave myself, and can't in good conscience help to enslave anyone else.

Rags, I appreciate your suggestions, and if it's possible, I second them. BWH isn't perfect, but it beats the pants off of hipocrasy and it's much more in line with reality.

Joel, there is line item veto in the administrator functions. Also the routing number is readable. This is NOT technically a personal cookie, but it links to your isp. So you can see roughly where someone's post originated. My advice is not to mess with them, pretend they don't exist if you have the inclination.

I do believe that motive is an important part of the entire process of homesteading (and everything!) and that has a direct effect upon the applications necessary. The vision of the founder is important....I believe Jd envisioned a communalist, depopulated, non confrontational collapse of the leviathon slave master system. Ie, an agrarian, communal, irreligious(?because whether or not it's admitted- there is a religion there) socialism . It's not going to be non confrontational, but it will depopulate.

You decide. Support those with whom you have the most ideological commonality....there is not much chance that anyone will be in line with an opinionated person on exactly everything they deem important- but you go with the least offensive of your choices, or you make another choice available. It comes down to feeding what feeds you instead of feeding that which opposes you. The UN readily agrees that food is a weapon, I extrapolate that to knowledge.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), February 09, 2002.

Rags, can't agree that this is positve in nature. Best solution is to let it go and as my ol' man used to say "Don't pick it, it'll bleed".

Most folks have probably made a decision long ago whether to con't w/ their subscriptions or not. If they choose to endorse CS w/ their hard earned $$ is basically their choice.

As far as complaining about the whole thing.......we shouldn't. All of us have spoken our peace/piece and now we should move on w/ it.

I was P.O.ed by the whole affair too, but the idea of "hurting Ken & Co." is wrong. Let's all just take the high road here and "shake the dust from our shoes" regarding CS and their forum. Revenge or hate and hurt feelings held onto only makes us ill and smaller in the end. It won't change anything.

All that said, please take this as a gentle rebuke only. Let's celebrate the return of the "Prodigal Son" w/ new, spirited, impassioned discussion and debate. What was is gone. Let's make the most of what we have now. Respectfully, John

-- John in S. IN (jdoofus@hotmail.com), February 09, 2002.

Lesley,so you didnt like my "whats your sign " post! I thought it was pretty cool just to see what folks were the same sign as my self. Oh well.

-- renee o'neill (oneillsr@home.com), February 09, 2002.

Thanks for the info on Ken's ability to delete Doreen. I wonder why he chooses to delete the whole thread to get rid of my reply ? There are two replies in the current forum that he didn't delete. I just fiqured he was behind on his reading and had not found them yet. One is under a thread about "CD's are ready" and is pretty funny. I think he would spite any value to get to me and that i think shows his flaws. SO now we are even-it is all idiopathic--I was an idiot and he is pathetic.

-- Joel Rosen (JoelnBecky@webtv.net), February 09, 2002.

I second John in IN's comment about nothing good will come of stewing over this or sabotageing CS or Ken. Besides, the opposite of love isn't hate, its indifference. Anybody ever been through a divorce?

I did like the recap of history though - I had seen the progressive censorship and disdain for anything Christian but never before had an accounting of the oringinally stated modus vivendi.

One comment - it is good to have posts on subjects other than solely political ones. But then thats just up to us posters.

-- charles (cr@dixienet.com), February 10, 2002.

Thank you, John. You are, of course, right. Sorry, but I was just focusing on supporting folks with a more similar mindset. I sure don't want to relive the entire debacle, it was upsetting to say the least.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), February 10, 2002.

Thank you all for your comments. Especially thank you Leslie for so succinctly and forcefully stating the problem we had with Ken the Junior Antichrist in Training. And thank you Doreen for your eloquent statement of your position: your comment about being at war and the mindset of the sheeple was spectacularly well said.

I also agree with those of you who point out the weaknesses of Backwoods Home--their dumb jokes, their uneven writing, and their petty and pokey cyberforum. But I am impressed by their tolerance of Christian and non Christian alike, their Constitutional fidelity, their strong Second Amendment stand, and by their concern for home schoolers. Above all, there is a refreshing absence of GOATS in some of their issues (just "kidding" goat ladies).

And finally, thank you Yankees for reminding me what making a "positive" statement really is. So here follows a very positive statement from a dear old Civil War song:

"I'm a good old Rebel, and that's just what I am For your "Fair Land of Freedom" I do not give a damn. I'm glad I fought against Her, I only wish we'd won. And I do not ask no pardon for anything I done."

II Kings 9:30-37

-- Rags in Alabama (RaggedReb@aol.com), February 10, 2002.

Rags, Well said. God Bless ya!

-- John in S. IN (jdoofus@hotmail.com), February 10, 2002.

When I dropped my CS subscription, I started gettin Small Farm Journal. While it focuses on using draft animals, it is more relevant to our way of life.

Joel, the name, Farmer Pirate came from Small Farm Journal as a term for us who grow and sell inspite of the USDA claiming we don't exist. I suppose if we don't exist, we are not bound by their stamp of approval.

I don't miss CS, forum or magazine.

-- Laura (Ladybugwrangler@hotmail.com), February 10, 2002.

Hello Rags, Casting all your anger aside, I will say that Backwoods Home is an excellent magazine and they also have an exellent forum. But, there is a wide variety of interests in homesteading and they handle it with a very sophisticated forum design. I use them as a sounding board for my religious views and by design of the forum's formate my views do not get mixed in with other homestead topics. They separate the topics into catagories which allow each forum member to view according to their interest.

The way the CountrySide forum is design is different and only after the topic is archived does in fall into a catagory. This leaves many people to read a headline and decide then whether or not to view the post. The headline is sometimes misunderstood and the forum member reads the post a gets "offended" by the content. Many just ignore it but, some get "offended" to the point that they defend their views and occasionally step on the toes of the poster.

I do not know if there is a best solution by boycotting CS or CS Forum. Talking bad about Ken and his chosen lifestyle is not the answer either. Neither will have any affect on the outcome of this situation. But, I do think that views of religious and political nature can be debated on Backwoods Home forum with safety and assurance that the debate will not be squashed for being offensive to others.



-- http://communities.msn.com/livingoffthelandintheozarks (espresso42@hotmail.com), February 10, 2002.

"on I have to say it was VERY disruptive when all the political and religious posts started taking over the forum. Prior to that the posts and contributors were consistantly topical, helpful and supportive, but then it degenerated. There were alot of hurt feelings and some out-and-out nastiness in the form of viruses and hacking going on, most often directed to those of the more liberal persuasion. The forum was self destructing from within, much like the forum on BWH became a forum for mean spirited sniping and insulting posts from folks who seem to delight in being disruptive rather than being helpful---all in the name of free speech of course. "

I did not find myself agreeing with much of this. I didn't feel that CS degenerated at all as a result of political or religious discussions. I feel the degeneration happened when people just couldn't deal with the fact that someone didn't agree with them. I'm sorry but I don't believe anyone was EVER hacked. I believe that we live in a generation of perpetual whiners. Ernest said that he couldn't speak his mind on BWH because his opinions would be squashed (paraphrasing). The truth is nobody CAN squash someone elses opinion online EXCEPT through censorship! The people whose opinions were squashed were NOT liberals or anybody else who got their knickers in a twist, it was those people who were and are being denied the right to express their opinions AT ALL on Countryside forum. Even now it incenses me that people can say I am squashing their opinions by expressing my own, even as they go whining to whatever person in authority, making up stories as they go along in order to squash my opinion. I say this because their were stories floating on all the boards that I was hacking people's computers and sending viruses! This is so laughable that it doesn't even dignify a response. I have never and will never attack anyone technologically, as I do not even possess the skills to do so at all(even should I ever decide to break all of the moral values and codes which I hold dear)!!! These were out and out lies!!! In other words folks, if somebody was doing this, it wasn't somebody that wanted to see good things happen to me!!! Somebody was lying in order to gain something. What was that something? Personally I believe that there was a person or people on the Forum who wanted to silence all dissenting voices out of either arrogance or an inability to cope with the idea that someone disagreed with them. I believe this person or persons were out to make us disappear, or at the very least banish us to a place where they didn't feel the uncontrollable urge to read what we write. Joel at the time seemed to believe it was Ken. I believe the whole situation worked towards Ken's infantile lust for the position of the Great and Wonderful Controller of the Countryside Universe, but honestly I think there were others as well. Others who went so far as to develop horror stories of mythical, virus sending, super hackers who had the abilty to invade hapless forum participant's computers and all but erase their names from the universe! It it interesting to me that John mentions that this horror of horrors happened to mostly the liberal folks who I know for a fact were spreading LIES about me! Which brings us to the real issue regarding this subject. Just because someone says something happened, don't make it true. If you want to know the truth at the end of the day, look for who is left out in the cold. Is it the liberal proclaimers of computers wronged? Did the good guys win the day and the bad fundamentalists get kicked out on their behinds? Lesson for real life: The best schemer wins!!! Why you say? Because the guy who is telling the truth, tells the truth! Fortunately, this life is not where I'm trying to WIN! "This world is not my home, I'm just apassing through. If heaven's not my home then Lord what will I do? The angel beckons me from heaven's open door and I can't feel at home in this world anymore. Oh, Lord you know I have no friend like you. If heaven's not my home then Lord what will I do. The Angels beckon me from heaven's open door, and I can't feel at home in this world anymore." (Hymn- I Can't Feel at Home in this World Anymore.)

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), February 10, 2002.

Wow, Joel Rosen and Ernest in the Ozarks both answering MY post--can it get any better? Seen your website, Ernest, it is way cool. I've really enjoyed all your past posts here. I wish more people had websites like yours to put faces to the posters.

Personally, if I'm mad, well I've got some mighty good reasons to be. But my personal reasons aside, anyone who lives in Amerikiya today and has watched Ruby Ridge, Waco, knows who really boomed OKC and why,has read the Model States Health Policy Act or the "Patriot Law", seen the borders disolving before our very eyes, listened to the godless venom the NPR and the TV news networks spuew out against every right and true thing and person, watched the ATF, IRS,FDA,BLM and a thousand other alphabet bureaucracies right down to local governments stealing children and destroying real peoples' real lives every day by the thousands, and ISN'T MAD just isn't paying attention (or perhaps doesn't have a pulse).

And for what he did to OUR right to speak on a forum we had just as much right on as him, I think it is right to call Ken the little tinpot despot he is--absolutely right. Our state motto in Alabama is "Audemos Nostra Jure Defendere"--We dare defend our rights--we do.

II Kings 9:30-37

-- Rags in Alabama (RaggedReb@aol.com), February 10, 2002.

Oh, and to use the vernacular, "Little Bit Farm, you GO girl!"

-- Rags (RaggedReb@aol.com), February 10, 2002.

Actually Little Bit I didn't expect you to agree with any of my take on the situation. The fundamentalists were not run off the forum--- they left by choice because Ken asserted his right as moderator to moderate in response to numerous protests by myself and others who don't appreciate religion being force fed to us. Once again CS was/is a forum about homesteading. Thats why I went there to begin with and thats why I go there now.

The fact is there were several people who WERE virused and hacked, at least thats what I've been told by them, and the attacks routinely came after one of the heated debates on CS and the targets of the attacks were people were consistantly more "liberal" than many on the opposing side of the fence.

You don't have to believe it but I have at least as much reason to believe those who say they were hacked and virused as I have to believe you who sez they're just whiners and are making it all up just to cause the exodus of the "free speechers" and fundamentalists.

I note with interest too that on the spin-off forums the fundamentalists seem to be more respectful of the right for others to differ than they had been on CS.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), February 10, 2002.

John, please don't try revisionist history. Just go back to the archives (if the posts are still there) and check all the posts clearly labeled "CHRISTIAN" that you and some other folks felt unable to avoid posting on. Nuff said.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), February 10, 2002.

John, I am curious. You say -

"I note with interest too that on the spin-off forums the fundamentalists seem to be more respectful of the right for others to differ than they had been on CS."

In what way, specifically, do you see this happening? Thanks.

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), February 11, 2002.

Doreen: Of course this is all a matter of individual perception. I've more or less outlined my own and you and others have discussed yours and once again we obviously percieve things differently. Yes, there were threads clearly labeled Christian, but as I recall that labelling didn't happen initially.

It started only as a result of a discussion after one of the previous "brawls". Since I consider myself just as "Christian" as those who disagree with me or I disagree with I felt just as correct and within my rights to post my "take" on things as you or anyone else on the threads clearly labelled "Christian". As I recall the gist of most of the disagreements had to do with interpretation. This clearly demonstrates that we each have different ideas of what being "Christian" means but considering the history that almost goes without saying.

Wendy: You ask on what basis do I assert the difference in "style" now and on CS. I think of Ernest for example. His spirituality appears to be not specifically Christian and he often refers to it directly or indirectly in his posts, and always respectfully and non- judgementally toward those who don't share his specific "take" on things, yet I've never seen him attacked for his beliefs, nor should he be IMO. However, had he posted some of his stuff on CS back then he surely would have been taken to task by the "Christians".

Mitch also has stated his opinion here about this issue and he too would have been raked over the coals back then on CS. Those are just two examples and please don't take this as criticism with the intent that you should be attacking either Mitch or Ernest. I mention them only as illustrative of my point.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), February 11, 2002.

Little Bit Farm…………..I have thought about your post a great deal and have tried to weigh my motives etc. in regards to even responding to it. I am terribly curious as to what makes you so certain that people were spreading lies about you on other boards and that you were thought to be the hacker. We obviously do not frequent the same boards, so I do not know of what you speak.

Whining takes many forms. Some are obvious and some are very veiled and I am quite certain your whining and mine would be very different. I was not hacked, but my mail- box was filled with things containing virus and the vilest pornography after one of our little debates. I never once thought it was you, and made that very clear on BTS when we compared notes on attacks. I surely cannot speak for others, but I make every effort not to lie.

I have always been very sad about my part in the demise of the CS forum as it once was. I can assure you I never went to Ken or Dave about what was happening. My communications with Ken have been limited to some heads ups about some rather foul postings that I would find while drinking my early morning cup of coffee, and some, which would be of public record on the forum. I find him to be more and more objectionable and am not at all sure I will be able to continue participating on CS. I try hard to take into account his limited intelligence because I find the homesteading forum very satisfying to my basic belief that we should encourage people to self- sufficiency.

If whining to the authorities means showing my sons who are involved in law enforcement what was coming to my e-mail box, I stand guilty as charged. I could not open my mail with my grandchildren in the room. It was all forwarded to someone that they knew, and strangely enough soon stopped after that.

In the “for what it’s worth” department, I believe that there was a lurker who was having a wonderful time. I sincerely wish you well, and others here as well.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), February 11, 2002.

I wrote this last night. Later i will follow up and respond to Diane. I do want to say a belated thank you to Diane as I read several posts where she defended me. The question is, why did I have to be defended if no one was lying?

Which in other words means that you have the right to say what you believe. You have the right to express yourself and I sir do not!!!! I, by posting on this forum, cannot forcefeed you anything!!! You either accept or reject anything I say whether religious or having to do with worming goats. This sir was not about forcefeeding. It was about control and bigotry! First it was "you Christians are posting that stuff on every thread, poor poor pitiful me!" And so the Christians were marginalized to labeling our threads. Never mind that no one else on ANY subject was required to label their threads! Then even that wasn't good enough! No sir your protests don't hold water! All of you had a choice to avoid threads written for and about Christians, but still you complained. No this was about tyranny . The tyranny of one group over another by denying them a voice! This was socialist/communist/dictatorial/Nazi/totalitarian ideology at it's worst, doing exactly what it has been doing for thousands of years. Denying the voice of some out of HATE! Prejudice comes in many forms. This was prejudice in it's worst form. This was a microcosm of what is wrong with humanity. It is not enough for some to express their beliefs and go on. Some people must either hear others singing their own tune or squash the dissenters. As a fundamentalist, I left because my right to say my own piece was denied by the physicality of having what I said deleted! If I went to CS and removed every goat post(which I couldn't do because I can't get to the moderators page}, would not that effectively tell goat people that what they had to say was not welcome. Ken is deleting whole threads to get rid of Joel. This you call appropriate? Actually Ken was supposedly put in place to ARRANGE threads. "Organize", that was the job he was given. As far as I know the moderator until I left was CS children, one or another. It is funny how organization suddenly became something different entirely. Oh how sweet, they TOLD you they had been hacked. Prove It! I don't care whether you believe me or not. If I really cared I would have jumped on all those forums and called them liars and had it out. I didn't feel the effort was worth my time. The truth is, it is my word against theirs. In the long run it just doesn't make a whole lot of difference. There is no way that proving my innocence can be done, nor is their any way to show them for the liars they are! In the long run people who know the difference between integrity and stupidity will figure it all out.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), February 11, 2002.

isn't this the place where all the christians came to? Where is all the love and tolerence talked about in the bible? What happened to turn the other cheek? Is this What Jesus Would Do?

I think its cool that joel comes back and in days your all at each others throats.

-- mvkk (mvkingkohl@aol.com), February 11, 2002.


Calm down, LBF. These forums on Lusenet are NOT a democracy. Heck, they're not even (gasp!) a constitutional republic! What a revelation, huh? At best they're a benevolent dictatorship with the forum moderators free to run them any way they see fit.

Apparently a LOT of people like the way the CS forum is being run - otherwise it wouln't be getting the number of posts and responses it's getting. If you don't like the way their forum is being run then simply go out and create your own forum (as you apparently did). If your forum does poorly, and you don't attract people to it, then you have no to blame but yourself.

It's sad to watch the Christians on this forum find fault only with Ken S. and various non-Christian posters over at CS. There were plenty of posts on CS by Christians that were just plain ugly and mean.

IMO, much of the wailing and anguish displayed on this thread is much ado about nothing. In the words of an anonymous sage: "Cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it!"

It's time to move on with your lives instead of re-hashing old injustices (real AND perceived)...


-- Non Serviam (non_serviam_non_pareo@yahoo.com), February 11, 2002.

Now you really have me confused LBF, I honestly don't recall defending you. When BTS was first passworded by Jim, there was a discussion about events that led up to it. In that thread several names were mentioned as possiblities. When yours was mentioned, it was the only time it could ever be construed that I "defended" you. No one ever said it was a fact, only one of many possibilities and, if my memory has not failed me, the general concensis was that it was probably a lurker just trying to make big trouble on the forums. I don't know how putting someones name up as a possibility would be construed as a lie. Like I said, you must have frequented some forums that I have not. I am with John from Indiana here, truly wishing it could be just put behind us.

I hate harboring bitter spirits, and quite honestly, spent many hours in prayer that the Lord would remove it from me. No matter our race, religion or sex, we are on this planet together for a reason that only God knows. In the old days sheepish often talked of the odd ways that our words came out, and I was, and remain, one of the chief offenders. I stopped all forum participation for awhile because of it. I only lurk on the Christian Homestead forum because I felt so defeated in my spirit by the way I "felt" I was attacked for head covering. I would not even lurk there but it is the only place that Lesley posts about Amy, and I do still pray for her.

There are, in my opinion, only two spirits that speak to us. The Holy Spirit would never have us turn on each other. I pray daily that I would have discernment to listen to the right spirit. I still frequently make mistakes and open my mouth in inappropriate ways and places. Perhaps it will always be my "thorn in the flesh", but I must say that it continuously humiliates me!!! No matter how our ego might be offended, we are still charged by Christ to love our enemies as well as our friends. (mind you I am not calling you or anyone else here an enemy)

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), February 11, 2002.

My my this has turned out to be rather heated than perhaps is necessary (at least for me it has). No, this is not where all the Christians went to. There are plenty here, but many visit on the Christian Homesteaders' Forum that I started in January of 2001. Since that time, although there are members of various Christian denominations there, not a single post has been deleted by me..haven't had to since all are civil and respectful. Diane, I do not recall at all your being "attacked" by anyone on the forum and am so sorry that you were not comfortable posting there. The tone has always been that although there may be vast differences in worship styles, etc. we all are brothers and sisters in Christ..demeaning anyone for their worship style has never been tolerated..as a matter of fact, several folks who could NOT tolerate others worship styles left the forum rather then accept others as Christians equal to one another. Arguing back and forth about Ken at CS is somewhat like beating a dead horse isn't it? Folks whose feelings were hurt are long gone..folks who ARE Christian, and not close to fundamentalism are obviously still there and enjoying the topics without a problem. So be it. CS forum, like any other cyber offering, is just another place on the internet. I really enjoyed it for nearly two years, yet not enough to compromise my religious beliefs. This issue will never be resolved here or on any other forum. Folks who choose to continue to visit at CS should not be beaten up because of it..folks who chose to leave it because of religious or other beliefs should not be beaten up because of their choice..what IS, IS.....Six years ago, I would have called myself a Christian and been very annoyed by the fundamentalists on any forum, so I know the feeling. Now, however, I run my life differently because of my new life in Christ; so my views are different. To each his own. This Freedom/Self-reliance forum as well as Country Families have many Christians of varying degrees who post often, just as at CS. We cannot erase the past, and some cannot let go and forget the hurt and anger..too bad. I just hate to "see" nice folks all upset with one another over a dead issue. God bless.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), February 11, 2002.

When Christians, claiming to have a grasp on the Holy Spirit argue, it is because one of them is wrong. What did Jesus preach? Lukewarm fuzzy tolerance of all things unclean? I don't think so!

I used to enjoy going to CS forum and having friends as Doreen, Joel, Little Bit, Hoot and many other Conservative Fundamentalists. I enjoy being able to discuss to various degrees and aspects of fundamentalism and how it shapes our worldview and our farming and homesteading practice. Too bad it got to where we couldn't discuss these things that were important to OUR homestead philosophies without being attacked and disrupted by those who were neither interested or educated to fundamental principles, but wanted us silenced.

I NEVER entered a discussion on the nuances of pagan farming practices or a post by a heathen in support of abominations, but I was attacked for posting to obvious Christian threads. What I can't figure out is those of you who whined the loudest about us Fundamental Christians on CS feel the need to come to this forum and attempt to pick fights here. It certainly shows me who the troublemakers are and it certainly isn't Joel.

-- Laura (Ladybugwrangler@hotmail.com), February 11, 2002.

"When Christians, claiming to have a grasp on the Holy Spirit argue, it is because one of them is wrong"

Actually Laura, that is not biblical at all.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), February 11, 2002.

I'll assume Laura was referring to me as the troublemaker here. I refer you to the initial post by Rags and I simply stated my disagreement and why I disagreed. This of course has led to other posts in response to my own and I will defend my position.

When a thread is labelled "Christian" it seems like it should be open to "Christians" of all sorts. That however was not the case was it? If it said "fundamentalist Christian" I wouldn't have gone there except possibly to lurk, just as I do with Lesleys forum sometimes. I've never posted there and I doubt if I ever will because my "Christian" views are quite dissimilar from most of her participants.

Note also that the freedom of speech you allege to cherish so much seems to only be applicable to those who you agree with because when you don't agree its someone trying to be a troublemaker, similar to the charge made against others.

As an aside, you say something like "When two Christians argue, each claiming to have a grasp on the holy spirit, one of them is wrong." Maybe they're both wrong since I doubt either of them are infallible.

Little Bit: Where to begin?!

You say "I, by posting on this forum, cannot forcefeed you anything!!!"

"Force feed" is a figure of speech in case you didn't understand that, used to illustrate the inappropriateness of the frequent chapter and verse and the harranguing behavior of you and a few others on CS. I note once again you don't attack others on THIS forum or feel compelled to whip out the bible at the slightest provocation.

"It was about control and bigotry!"

Ya know, I actually agree with that, but certainly not in the way you mean. Actually, in exactly the opposite way you mean because the "control and bigotry" was being directed by you and others at those who didn't accept your version of Christianity and spirituality.

"And so the Christians were marginalized to labeling our threads." Poor, poor, pitiful me!

"All of you had a choice to avoid threads written for and about Christians, but still you complained."

When a thread is labelled "Christian" I will respond if I feel like it. I'm sure I'm not your kind of Christian, nor are you mine for that matter, but I am a "Christian" according to my own understanding and belief and so are numerous others who were bashed, virused, and hacked.

"No this was about tyranny . The tyranny of one group over another by denying them a voice!"

I'm sure that the way you see it and I see it in much the same way but in reverse because that's exactly what it seemed like to me.

"Denying the voice of some out of HATE! Prejudice comes in many forms. This was prejudice in it's worst form. This was a microcosm of what is wrong with humanity. It is not enough for some to express their beliefs and go on. Some people must either hear others singing their own tune or squash the dissenters."

And thats exactly the way others see you, so it becomes one of those log and mote kindsa things.

I agree, Ken is a little heavyhanded sometimes and overreacts but that the nature of backlash isn't it? First the pendulum swings one way then another.

"Oh how sweet, they TOLD you they had been hacked. Prove It! I don't care whether you believe me or not."

I don't have to prove anything to you Little Bit. Its a fact that several people said they were hacked, virused, spammed with pornand sent very inflammatory e-mails(immediately after one of the several hooplas on CS) and I don't have any reason to believe they're lying. Nor do I recall you being specifically accused of any of it.

"In the long run people who know the difference between integrity and stupidity will figure it all out."

Yes---we will won't we.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), February 11, 2002.

lesley, I am sorry about the mention of your forum. It should not have been handled here. I know you never deleted any threads, but the entire archives of when I was participating has been destroyed and is not present any more. When I left it was at the same time as the other Mennonites, in fact the ones that were just lurking gave up the internet all together. I frequently think they made the right choice.

I really did not come here to "pick fights". In all honesty I am mostly very intimidated by Christians who have a Bible in one hand and a gun in the other. Perhaps because of a long family history of being the "wrong" kind of Christian in the "wrong" place from the very beginning of the history of this country. My people did not WRITE the history books, but they did help settle this country. I just keep clinging to the idea of there being One God and One Jesus who would have us find a love for each other and our fellow man. peace

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), February 11, 2002.

Who cares about Ken and his weighty authority over an electronic bulletin board?????? I actually said two prayers for the man yesterday, but he can do whatever he wants on his turf, and he has. I really don't care to rehash all of this myself. I am sorry it has digressed to this....However (always have one of those up my sleeve:)- John Leake, if you claim Christ fine...will He claim you? That, my friend, is the eternal question. You cannot find the answer in the bhagvad. This is not said to upset you, but truly to have you check your claims......night now!

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), February 11, 2002.

As the originator of this thread I hereby declare it "a ten page catfight over misinterpretations and irrelevancies". Thus is it declared and duly noted.

By the way, Diane, if you think Christians don't need guns, I suggest you suscribe to The Voice of the Martyrs Magazine. And I deeply resent being called "a Christian with a Bible in one hand and a gun in the other". I'll have you know, mam, that I'm a card carrying member of the GOA and I'm a Christian with a gun in BOTH hands. You damn liberals with your hatred of guns are going to be the death of this country.

And rather than listen to ten more pages, let this be the last word. Thank you for all your opinions and Good Night.

-- Rags in Alabama (RaggedReb@aol.com), February 11, 2002.

what is GOA???

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), February 11, 2002.

Actually John my Bible came right along with me. Check out my writing under these titles in the religious articles

Our rights and Jesus

The Church and the women's movement

Questions about Christianity

As far as Ernest goes I dare say he is completely aware of what I believe. He has put his two cents in on several posts both on this forum and On my own. The problem is, that for awhile on CS "attack" and stating your beliefs were erroneously considered the same thing. I almost always prefaced my beliefs with I believe, or I think. Sorry that is not an attack.

By the way I went back to the religious section in the archives of CS today. All I can say is man we had some great discussion on that forum once upon a time. Fun Reading!

Rags, I actually appreciate your post as it gave me an opportunity to express some things I was just too upset to write about at the time they happened. God bless!

Oh, and just so I don't get accused of not whipping out the Bible at every opportunity... " For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@farm.com), February 11, 2002.

BINGO...........I figured it out. Gracious Old Alabaman!!!! ;>) I love you too Rags. If you have guns in both hands than I will hold your Bible in my free hand.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), February 11, 2002.

Doreen: You ask "John Leake, if you claim Christ fine...will He claim you?"

A long time ago.

-- john (natlivent@pcpros.net), February 12, 2002.

Too bad its not the christ of the bible johns got the christ that takes everyone else

-- whatever (Don't care@dialaprayer.com), February 12, 2002.

This degeneration is exactly what I feared when this conversation began. Somebody asked if "this is where all the Christians went, why don't they do WWJD" I paraphrase that. But that's a good question. I don't believe that righteous indignation is always a winning way w/ people who either don't believe or those who claim to. Big long drawn out arguements make us look silly at times. I think this qualifies as one of those times.

I'm not trying to criticise anyone in particular here, but in our fervent attempts to be good Christians we sometimes alienate the very folks we wish to (?)teach. Maybe a more calm and quiet approach would be better? Yeah, I know. I can almost hear you all laughing and wondering "Where's John amd What did you do w/ him?"

But seriously, Maybe we should (and I'm gonna change this just a bit) "be still and know that I am God. And I will be exalted among the Nonbelievers".

Well, play nice and love one another. "And that's all I have to say about that" - Forrest Gump

-- John in S. IN (jdoofus@hotmail.com), February 12, 2002.

Dear Rags,

When you say We may not be many, but many as we are we need to hurt Ken & Co. as bad as we can and one way is to take away as much revenue from Countryside as we can, please tell me, what is Christian and or positive about that?

Furthermore, if you people hate CS so much why do you even talk about them over here? I like CS and I like there magazine. I like this forum too, but can't figure out the anger. My bible doesnt say anything about hurting someone else as much as I can.

-- mvkk (confused) (mvkingkohl@aol.com), February 12, 2002.

From a bystanders point of view--where was I ? Boy did I miss out on all this fun--I thought the thread was over, silly me. Well I read all the posts--twice--and I think you all handled it very well. I guess we all grew several coats from our many discussions. Someone said cat fight ? Better a thousand cat fights than one firefight, IMHO. Hey' we are going to express views, re-express them, and venomously defend them. THAT"S WHO WE ARE !!! And I wouldn't want any one of you to change one word !

-- Joel Rosen (JoelnBecky@webtv.net), February 13, 2002.

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