Countryside Forum closing down end of this month

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Beyond the Sidewalks : One Thread

Ken is outa there, and Belangers want no more to do with it......I'm wondering if that Chuck fella will grab the reins? Veddy interesting.......

-- Anonymous, February 17, 2002

Answers

Well RATS!! Not that I didn't see it coming. Wonder if someone will take it over with a name change; and if so, if the rules will change as well.

Do we need to go take names and addresses of folks that we might want to keep in touch with? Maybe by sending them the password or by (as Joy suggested last week) starting a BTS open forum? I was thinking Brad and greenbeanman and hermit john - who else is there from the old days?

Guess I'd better send that Chuck guy my $4 - there's some stuff on there that I don't want to lose. Unless someone here has the time and ability to burn some CDs - 'cause I'd really rather support the efforts of one of us - even at a higher cost.

-- Anonymous, February 17, 2002


How odd...why would they shut down an obviously successful forum that gets its message out and encourages new subscriptions? Must be the pain in the ass factor involved. Veeddy veddy interrrrestink.

-- Anonymous, February 17, 2002

Here's the post, for those who don't care to go to CS to read it:

FORUM TO END ON MARCH 1ST, 2002 UNLESS….. Countryside Publications (publishers of Countryside and Small Stock Journal) has decided to terminate the forum unless someone volunteers to take over full and complete responsibility for it. This means they will have the full range of responsibilities, from determining forum policies to housekeeping.

Basic reason is the forum has never been an income generator for Countryside. It was started with the hope it would entice people to subscribe, but the number who do so are offset by those who cancel after becoming upset at something on the forum. Plus, each time the forum server goes down, Dave has to answer phone calls or e-mails when there is nothing he could do about it except wait for it to come up again. Also, he has to deal with people complaining, fairly often, about why certain threads were deleted while others were allowed to stay, forum censorship or a perceived anti-Christian orientation by forum management. As he has said, the problem is people cannot agree to disagree agreeably. It simply became not worth the hassle any longer, particularly when the gut feeling is less than half of participants even subscribe to the publication.

Plus, Countryside Publications has just picked up two additional publications, Dairy Goat Journal and Sheep!. This will keep Dave busy for the foreseeable future as he works to improve and promote them.

Compounding, and possibly forcing, the decision is I no longer desire to be the assistant monitor/administrator/housekeeper/referee. I took over the responsibility as a personal favor for the Belanger family after Steve Belanger went back to his old employment. When I first started it took maybe an hour a day to do housekeeping, then it grew to 1 1/4 hours, then 1 1/2 hours, then 1 3/4 hours and now about two hours a day. One day I took my afternoon nap. Upon arising, I checked the forum and 12 new threads had been posted in that period of time. It has ceased to be fun, and when a volunteer activity ceases to be fun, it is time to move on.

(To give you an example of time drain, before someone posts a new thread/question, they are requested to read some directions. Among them are the need to make titles descriptive of contents and to place it in a category. Probably less than 50% do both and some do neither. Heck, we have some long time participants who apparently have never assigned a category. After a while you just flat out get tired of asking.)

No later than after February 28, 2002, Countryside Publications will have no direct or indirect involvement in the forum whatever happens. If continued, the name will be changed from Countryside to something like Country Forum or Homesteading Today. It cannot continue to be Countryside as that name is copyrighted.

Thus, for the forum to continue, someone needs to step forward. However, before you volunteer, consider the time and effort involved. While you may get ATTA BOYS, one AH SHIT pretty well wipes them out. You will quickly find you cannot be everything to everyone and when you step in to provide guidelines, both sides will have at you. Plus, you will have the trolls and vandals to deal with. Look at it this way: at an average time requirement of two hours a day, or 14 hours a week, you are basically working for two days a week free. But then, it’s a work-at-home opportunity which probably pays as well as most.

To take over administration you will need a valid Internet address. Perhaps a separate free account can be set up.

Right now the forum has over 15,700 threads and 140,700 posts recorded against it. At the rate it is growing, it appears in another twelve months there would be 25,000 threads and 200,000 posts.

If you are interested in this responsibility, send me a mini-resume just stating why you think you would be a suitable administrator for the forum no later than February 22, 2002. I will consolidate and forward them to Dave with a recommendation. The final decision is Dave’s. (Remember the saying about being careful what you ask for...)

Dave explored several options prior to this action, but none worked out.

Please don’t go bothering Dave. The decision has been made and is not reversible on the part of either of us.

I will be available for a reasonable period of time to bring a new administrator up to speed on housekeeping. It’s not complicated.

Ken Scharabok

-------------------------------------------------

Now, to try to answer anticipated questions in advance:

Would you consider passing the hat occasionally to pay someone to administer it? NO! That would be yet another administrative headache. They would basically become a Countryside Publishing employee.

What if we all agreed to agree with the forum’s well-stated policy on religious and political threads? Been there, done that, the resolve doesn’t last long. We are long past that option.

What happens if no one wants the administrator job or no suitable candidates apply? The forum will be deleted (including the archives) on March 1, 2002.

What about the archives? There has been a recent thread on how to download them on your own and Chuck is making them available on CD for a very reasonable price. See the Forum Related category.

What about future Lusenet support? Go to www.greenspun.com. On that page you will see where Phil Greenspun makes a commitment not only to continue Lusenet support, but to enhance it. (Also note someday they may start charging for support.) It is probably 98% reliable now. Most of the downtime is connected with the server being physically located away from their offices, so they have to have someone make a special trip to reset it.

I can’t believe you are doing this! Why so suddenly? It has been building for several months. Matters finally came to a head. Consider it is a divorce over unreconsilable differences.

Don’t you care about what happens to the forum in the future? Probably no more than being concerned about what an ex- does with the rest of their life.

What do you see happening to the forum under a new administrator? This is my personal opinion only. Unless the new administrator takes full and firm control from the start, the forum will self-destruct within a year, if that long.

Are there alternative forums which are similar? There are probably more, but some are www.backwoodshome.com, www.countrylife.net and, on the Lusenet system, Country Families, Freedom and Self-reliance, The Singletree, Barter Post, Cooking and Crafts, Rabbits For Profit and Dairy Goats. I’ve probably left out more.

What if the new administrator wanted to make it password controlled with a subscription from participants? That would be an option for them; however, I doubt it would be viable. They would cut off their new blood.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), February 17, 2002



-- Anonymous, February 17, 2002


Tell you the truth, I was considering not getting the magazine anymore since the forum was so much more interesting. You could have immediate answers to questions you had instead of waiting to see if it shows up in the magazine. And remember, I'm really not a homesteader, just someone with animals on 6 acres.

-- Anonymous, February 17, 2002

A good idea may be to copy the CS contributor list from the statistic page for reference for email addresses.

-- Anonymous, February 17, 2002


I sure hope somebody moderate steps up to the plate to take over the forum. What a fiasco it'd be if Little Bit were to take over!

And I agree, maybe we should "troll" for likely candidates for BTS while we can. I'm gonna be getting that back up CD too.

-- Anonymous, February 17, 2002


Jay - tried that; only came up with the top 20 contributors for me. Anyone else?

John - who you got in mind?

-- Anonymous, February 17, 2002


Polly,

Sorry the stats page contributor list won't be of much use after all. It doesn't show names, just email addy's. I used it at the 'tree to make a site crash contact program to direct ACS members to the back up site, but the member count on that board is still small. CS stat list takes 30 minutes to download and has thousands of addresses.

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002


I see where Karen, my nomination for this forum, has written that there are people who have volunteered. I was one of them, and was pretty much told that there were others much more "suitable" for the job. (whatever that means) At any rate, I am thinking it will most likely stay pretty much the way it is with just a new name. I was told by Ken to "keep it under my hat for now" that there was already a list of volunteers. Not sure why exactly, would certain put people more at ease but he's the man. The only reason I volunteered was because I hated to see it move off Lucenet and most everyone was talking about a different server etc. I am sharing this information with THIS forum only. Hope it stays here.

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002

I am hoping too that Ken and who ever decides such things, that they pick an even handed, level headed administrator to babysit the replacement forum, and yes, ooh, can you imagine what it would like with LBF in charge??? Very scary......... beyond interesting, down right scary!

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002


Well, I was surprised at the suddeness of it but can't say that it wasn't unexpected. Any forum the size of the CS has got to be a flaming pain in the behind to the person responsible for keeping it on an even keel. From the sounds of it Ken wasn't even really recompensed for his work.

I participate in a lot of various kinds of forums and from having seen what goes on you couldn't pay me to moderate a busy one, particularly one where controversial topics pop up regularly.

Reckon I'd better send my $4.00 as well.

.......Alan.

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002


Well, my worst fear came true. Chuck is the new moderator. I guess it could be worse, they didn't give the job to Joel. :)

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002

Well, without being the official forum of Countryside and Small Stock Journal anymore if Chuck proves to be a poor moderator the forum will simply dissipate as folks vote with their digital feet and leave. Some new forum somewhere else will take its place.

Unfortunately, if the Countryside forum (whatever it's to be called in the future) does fall apart it will likely bode ill for the spin offs on Lusenet in the long term if its replacement isn't also on Lusenet. From the cruising I've been doing on the various forums here they all seem to be mostly people with folks who started at Countryside. The other forums such as this one will have to get out and advertise to keep fresh blood coming in. That flow of new ideas and perspectives is simply vital.

.......Alan.

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002


Worst fear, Sherri? Is this Chuck the same one whose thread on Country Families was deleted recently? Or are there several "Chuck"s out there to confuse us?

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002

I don't frequent Country Families. Can you fill me in Joy?

I think that I will have little in common with this guy from what I read on CS, especially in regards to religious views. Oh, well.

And Diane, I think you are perfectly 'suitable'!

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002



Thanks Anne, I am really trying to have a positive mindset about this guy, but he really spooks me. Yes, he was the one with the deleted thread. He also started the barter forum. Ed Copp on the Freedom Forum made a lot of points I had been thinking. Personally, before I knew it was Chuck, I thought there might be a chance it would stay at Lucenet. I am of the opinion he will get everyone corraled and calmed down and then we will suddenly move to a pay for view type board of his choosing. This guy is not going to do it for NOTHING. Not a chance. I sent him money for a book the day he opened the barter board and it still isn't here. Asked him about it several times now and it is like, it is in the mail. We mailed back and forth last night and he said he would send another with a CD. Will see what happens.

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002

The one and the same Joy. IMO the photo he posted that started the bad stuff over at CF was a fake. That's just my gut feeling, and my gut's been wrong on more than one occasion. Or maybe lurking on FSR has made me paranoid. We'll just have to wait and see.

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002

You mean "Chuck from MD" is the new moderator??? Oh, Fate's help us all, the guy gives me the creepy crawlies bad! I have contributed many, times to his topics and have gotten the cold shoulder really bad evry time, and I was being really nice and helpful too, didn't matter, to him I am a ignorant and terrible Buhhdist heathen in need of salvation I guess.

I get the distinct impression that if you don't walk the straight and narrow path that is "Chuck's Way of Looking at Life" you not get so much as the time of day with him in charge.

Ooh, Earthmomma, I am really getting to realize just how you feel about him.........:-( !!!! I sure do hope my fears are totally unfounded.

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002


Gee, I am so upset that I can't even spell right, for pities sake!!!

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002

yep, just as I intuited.......I personally dont remember hearing about this guy until a few months ago......and then suddenly there he was.....all over the place........putting little bitty photos of himself on his posts.......lecturing people about this and that.....rubbed me the wrong way from the start. Stepped right up to the plate to run off copies of the forum.......I dunno, I thought it was weird. Then that hideous gay bashing thing over at CF, and his frequent patronizingly sexist and religious statements......blaarrghh......I cannot imagine what Ken was thinking, and I assume he had something to do with the decision, maybe not. I absolutely think they should have PAID a moderator; volunteer thankless jobs are short-lived, and Countryside gets off pretty cheap in most ways. Seems there could have been a way to make the forum only open to subscribers anyway?

Enough of my snarly kvetching; I can't imagine ever going to a forum moderated by that person. Too too sad.

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002


I guess this means that we all will be "playing here" quite a bit more from now on, Country Families is/was OK for awhile, but if you stay there too long it is the polar opposite of Freedom Forum, just way too much endless re-reruns of "The Ozzie and Harriet Show, or Father Know's Best" kind of thing, way too much "plain vanilla". I like sprinkles and nuts, and heck even whipped cream, on my plain vanilla occasionally ;-)!!!

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002

HaHa......good one, Annie!!..... Ozzie and Harriet.!.....sprinkles and nuts, yeah me too.......and even an occassional dollop of sticky hot fudge!

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002

EM, I couldn't help it, had to go over there and "back you up", you sure do know how to stir the pot! As you well know, I like to be a little bit "ornery" too ;-)!

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002

"to him I am a ignorant and terrible Buhhdist heathen in need of salvation I guess." - Annie speaking of Chuck in Md

Annie,

Well, that's exactly the treatment I was given here, ignorant Christian in need of "education" (see EM's last post from Feb. 14 on the "Where should BTS be going" thread"). Guess it's wrong for people to do that at other forums but ok here OR maybe it's simply ok to have that attitude about Christians. ??

You mentioned the need for forgiveness in an earlier post to the "Where should BTS be going", and I agree, but sometimes it is hard to forget. I made some private apologies for any "hurt" my post caused but not a single person seems to care how offended I was. I never offered to share any "scriptures" or other materials with EM and never accused her of being "uneducated" in matters. Some people just cannot except that others have educated themselves too but have different beliefs on matters.

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002


From one of the new forums - sorry, it slips my mind which one:

...on the last day of February I will be doing a COMPLETE backup of the Countryside forum (right up to the last minute if possible) and saving it to disk. Anyone wanting a copy on a CD can email me and I'll get it to you. For now that's about it - I sure hope to hear a lot about this new adventure I've just set out on!

May your day be filled with much laughter and sunshine!

-- Phil in KS (pemccoy@yahoo.com), February 18, 2002

I've already sent off an e-mail to him; asking for price and his address to send remittence to.

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002


Ok, well I went to country Families. As they are starting to post bets on the life of CS in its current/similar incarnation, I added my guess....27 days. Do I hear any others here?

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002

Terry, I am so glad you posted here, I DO CARE that you were offended, I do care about anyone being offended, in a perfect world we would all be able to not offend anyone, but we are mere humans, and as such will say and do things that we really wish we shouldn't, we all have weak moments, or even just moments of utter and great stupidity.

I have no "magic answer", I can spout dogma that teaches tolerance, but tolerance exists in our hearts or not, we can't force it, but we can forgive unconditionally. Sometimes we must agree to disagree, and let it go at that.

I do care deeply about your feelings and everyone's feelings, and I wish I could make everything all right. When I offend people, all I can do is apologise and ask for forgiveness, and hope for the best. That being done, we must put aside our personal differences, accept the apology, and try very hard to forget as well as forgive.

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002


Okay, Terry, here we go again, and here I thought this was over.

You say "not a single person seems to care how offended I was". Well, here I will quote from my email to you, which was in response to your kind apology..

" Thank you Terry,

I humbly accept your apology,and am very touched that you were strong enough to offer it; I know it couldnt have been easy, and I realize you are hurting too. I know you intended no harm, and hope we all learned something from the experience. Lets please try to move on with love; it is forgotten. "

Next, my references on that thread were in response to your expressed confusion as to why what you said and defended were hurtful; in other words, I answered your question. It was also done because other people requested the information for their own use. As you you not offering to share scriptures or reading materials with us from your perspective, well certainly no one prevented you from doing so. However, the point I tried to make clear in my long post was that I AM VERY FAMILIAR WTIH ALL THOSE READING MATERIALS. You would be unlikely at best to offer me any I had not already seen, so what would be the point.

Now, as you say " Some people just cannot except that others have educated themselves too but have different beliefs on matters." Look in the mirror, dear; this is exactly MY point! See how alike we can be??

As Joy mentioned once before, the basic conservative "Christian" mantras are very well known to almost every living person in our culture; it is not new information. The fact that many people choose to believe otherwise does not mean that they havent heard the real story yet, any more than women are gay because they havent found the right man! Different strokes......all fine.....and kind and loving people do not make judgements on other peoples' "choices."

Love is all we need!!

Peace,

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002


Boy, you sure miss alot when you do selective reading. I like Chuck because I've never had any problems with him. He helped me when I was trying to figure out how to do the picture thing, e-mailing me suggestions and stuff.

So, what did I miss?

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002


The short answer to Anne and Dee (about what you missed): There was a thread (now deleted, and I didn't get over there in time to read it either) on CF that was mentioned here. That devolved into some disagreements here. If you read our thread "Where should BTS be going" and this thread right here, you can probably get the gist of the sorry mess. >:-{

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002

Joy,

A problem with someone checking that thread is that part of the posts are not longer there. If they were some people might be able to look at them and understand that I was never defending "bashing" homosexuals - I think that "bashing" anyone is wrong. I only disagreed that it was indeed "bashing" and have since even stated that maybe I missed some of the posts at CF. From there it was all downhill.

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002


I'm sorry, Terry, I'm not certain what posts you mean when you say that "part of the posts are no longer there". If you are talking about any threads on THIS board, I assure you, everything is there. The only way for parts to be gone would be if I deleted them, and I haven't touched a thing on those threads.

I sent you an email earlier this evening -- hope you got it!

I just had a thought -- the "missing" posts might be in a different thread . . . but I'm not sure which one . . . gotta go look. I'll post again if I think I find it!

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002


Okay, right, I THINK this is where the "missing" posts are: Look at the thread entitled "application for new forum participant (forum related)". Here's the link.

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002

My mama always told me to not discuss religion and politics. I should'a listened!

Teri: I understand what you say about there seeming to be an "anti- Christian" bias. If there is, and I'm not saying there is, I'm as guilty as any for it. I do understand how it can be percieved as such however.

Many of us have been burned or thoroughly disenchanted with main stream Christianity for a lot of legitimate, well reasoned, reasons.

Speaking for myself only, I thinks its more a matter of being opposed to particular types of behavior and genuine disagreement with the commonly held interpretations that I often encounter from "Conservative Christians".

When someone speaks up in opposition to certain religious tenents held by that group it often seems to become personal and is often percieved as "anti-christian" when in fact its simple opposition to a particular portion of the prevailing doctrine. I understand how it can be taken personally but I think its rarely intended as personal.

It is also sometimes taken as criticism of Christ and his teachings but thats incorrect IMO. Its a questioning of interpretation and Christians are just as fallible as the rest of us in that regard.

Many of us came here to escape the prostheltyzing (and I'm not suggesting you did any of that at all) and we'd hoped we'd be able to avoid the types of hard feelings so often generated by "religious or spiritual" discussions.

I dunno what the answer is. Either we avoid those types of discussions all together or for us all to be prepared to either defend what we believe without getting upset if someone questions us and challenges our reasoning and for those doing the challenging to do it with respect and understanding.

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002


Here we go again....;)

(the resident atheist slinks off to a safe place...)

-- Anonymous, February 18, 2002


Terry,

This is an interesting statement to me

" I only disagreed that it was indeed bashing and have since even stated that maybe I missed some of the posts at CF." Well, Criminy, I have reread all the stuff we've said on this subject, and I couldnt find where you'd stated that at all! So then I read it all once again, and found this phrase in your original post:

"Probably shouldn't have even posted this but if the posts there have been read carefully I don't thinkg there was any "bashing".

Now when I read that, I understood it to mean, probably based on the tone of the rest of your comments, that you were referring to ANYONE ELSE reading carefully; now on close inspection I can see where there is the possibility you were referring to YOURSELF reading carefully. Which would change the whole meaning of the sentence. Perhaps the IS a part of the problem!! The bashing reference was based on MY reading of at least a majority of the thread, and since I was in their target audience, I am qualified to judge whether or not it was bashing.

Polly had a copy of the thread; perhaps she should post it here; you all, including Terry, can judge for yourselves.

One more thing: This stuff that some "Christians" like to say about hating the sin and not the sinner. This has always come across to me as terribly disengenous and annoying. If I tell you that my religous beliefs tell me that Christianity is in itself a sinful way of life, how would you take that? (Now it just so happens I DO NOT believe that whatsoever, but what if I did?) That I dont hold anything against your PERSONALLY, but I still KNOW that you are going to be condemned eventually to eternal damnation, that you will/are living a miserable, unhappy life, that if only you would convert to MY

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002


religion you would be saved from all your "sins" (defined by my religion), that even though you are "an abomination" I forgive and love you anyway, and that because I love you, I pray every day for the eventual deliverance of your soul from the wickedness that is your religion, how are you gonna feel about me? And why would you rightfully feel that way? Cuz your religion is not just a religion, its part of the essence of who you are, just as how I define myself sexually is part of the essence of who I am. The two cannot be separated, no matter how many times that sin and sinner stuff is bantered about. The essence of who I am is not of "sin" to ME; heck I dont even BELIEVE in 'sin'!! The essence of who I am is of good, and love, and compassion, and though we are all a work in progress and I am still in this earth school like the rest of you, this is my personal priority.

The same thing would be true when someone who lives a conventional modern life judges a homesteading family. This is not an uncommon occurrance. If I believed that the way "you" are raising your kids (this is not you personally, let me be clear): keeping them from modern conveniences, keeping them from traditional schooling, not taking them to physicians and other health professiionals for their yearly check-ups but using herbs/energy for healing, grow your own food, keep livestock and consequently put the kids in constant danger or injury and filth, involve them in butchering animals, never expose them to the culture available in the city, let them handle firearms, make them wear hand-me-downs, never let them see television and limit their exposure to media overall, never let them eat at fast- food places, or hang out at the mall, and all the other things that regular American kids do, I could easily see your child-rearing practices as evil. They would not be acceptable to "me" as an upright, city-type person who wants to see kids raised with a fair chance at life in modern America. Everything you do and say would be tainted in my mind by my mindset of you as living an evil lifestyle. Now of course I would probably say, and maybe even believe, that I don't think YOU personally are evil, but that your LIFESTYLE is, and I hope and pray that some day you will see what damage you are doing to your children, and change to be like me. What would I be judging? The very essence of who you are; not just the things you are doing to describe that lifestyle, and I'd wager you'd take it PLENTY personally, because personal is what it would be.

I hope this increases understanding of my perspective; I want peace, but I want open discussion too, done with respect, and, yes, with love.

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002


Ok. now I'm going to stick my toe in the water and see what happens.

In my reading of this and some of the offending posts (other forums), I see this conversation as very respectful. Two opposing view points have been stated and are being discussed. That's all it is, a discussion. No one can be hurt unless they allow themselves to be.

EM, I applaud your post above. It is the utmost in respect, love, and honesty. I do understand your perspective as best I can without actually being in your shoes. And Terry, I also believe you are a truly loving, respectful, and honest person. The problem arises because these 2 different viewpoints are based on some very differing philosophies. I'm very familiar with Christianity and love many aspects of it. I would never want any Christian to feel unwelcome here. I understand that there are some absolutes about it that make it difficult to accept certain things like homosexuality or worshipping some other deity than the traditional Christian God. But every time these things are brought into discussion (CF thread as example) it is hurtful and bashing to the people who are being discussed even though the participants may mean well because it sounds so exclusive.

I wish that Christians at large (no one here) would understand that not everyone believes as they do. Actually most of the world believes differently. It does come across as very superior to hear "I love the sinner but not the sin" because as EM stated the "sin" is part of their essence. It's like saying, "I love the person but not their Chrisianity". To me it's not sin but just different than what I do.

Every person regardless of their race, religion, or orientation deserves love and respect. No one enjoys being left out or thought to be not as "good".

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002


Wow...there sure is alot going on here!! Haven't been around for a few days. I just want to meekly hold up my hand and ask a question about what Ken said. Is it true that Lusenet is not closing down and that Phil Greenspun is actually enhancing it? Will it be more dependable? Oh and how do we really KNOW that is Chuck's picture :-)!?? Okay, coward that I am, I think I'll go slink off to that "safe" place with Anne!!

P.S. Anne...I'm not calling you a coward...just me!

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002


Joy,

EM's right, the beginning of the discussion is at the thread "Application for new forum participants".

Earthmama, it was in private e-mails that I stated that I might have missed some posts at CF - one was an e-mail to Joy. My original post was a difference of opinion between what "bashing" is - that was how all this started. I really feel that if you had not been personally hurt by the "topic" at CF, then you probably would have seen it for what it was. Then when I explained that some of what was said there was due to the fact that they were Christians and that belief - everything went WAY downhill from there.

EM, since you said these posts from CF affected you personally and were hurtful I apologised to you (and did NOT try in the personal e- mail to once again explain, in my own defense, what I was TRYING to say because I thought this might make my apology look as if it weren't sincere when it was).

May I please try to explain one more (and I promise it's the last) time? It wasn't that there was a difference of opinion in our discussion that bothered me, as some have suggested, because we certainly all have differet opinions, at times, here. It was the whole tone it took on that did. People jumping to Em's defense with more of a "ranting" than discussion (Polly's posts in particular). I actually thought EM and I were having just a discussion even though I could see I wasn't explaining myself too well. Her remarks were always civil and I appreciated that even though I did feel hurt by one of her statements that made it sound like I believe what I believe because I have not been educated on all the facts - that sort of says to me "I am right because I have educated myself and you would believe JUST AS I believe if you had your facts straight. Please stand back from the hurt and look at that objectively and see if you wouldn't feel the same way if I had said that to you EM, that's why I said in an earlier post that I never offered to send you scriptures or other materials because I would be conveying to you that I thought you needed them to become more educated and then would change your opinion. That would have been a bit arrogant, don't you think?

Another post following this -

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002


"that even though you are "an abomination" I forgive and love you anyway, and that because I love you, I pray every day for the eventual deliverance of your soul from the wickedness that is your religion, how are you gonna feel about me?"

Em, of course I understand about taking things personally and being hurt by them but would still feel that you had a right to that opinion.

Yes, to what you said about the former CF posts having been read carefully - I was speaking of myself .

Ihave a comment on what you said, EM, concerning - hate the sin but love the sinner, so to speak. I know, I know, now I'm going to hear, from several people, the "we have ALL heard the tenents of Christianity" bit but I can't say what I want to say without mentioning it. If anyone has ever stated that a person is an abomination rather than an act being an abomination then they really don't understand - I'm speaking of Christians making a remark like that.For those that believe our God created all people we know that he loves us all (all of mankind-not just Christians) and has told us in the Bible how special we ALL are, so special that he sent His son to die for US, that is what he said. However, there are things he does not want us to do and ways he does not want us to behave, as he spells out in the Bible. It really is just like the way we raise our own children. I love you son-daughter, but here are the things that I believe are important and here are the rules you need to follow. I might hate some things my children would do but never hate them - impossible. I think where a lot of hurt comes from is in the fact that no single person on this earth is perfect (or sinless for that matter), so we have Christian (and sometimes those that really aren't but call themselves that) that do very hurtfull things. then ALL Christians are perceived this way. How many times have you heard the expression that someone was "Jewed" down in a business transaction? Because someone was done wrong by a person that was black, Jewish, Christian, Asian, poor - whatever, some people become very prejudice towards all that fall into that group. Of course, I think most of us agree that it is there loss to be that way.

There is another statement I'd like to address here is the one, EM made about being able to truly understand situations like racisim against blacks unless we are black. I know this is not an exact quote and you mentioned other areas of life also but I'll use the racism against blacks as the example. I don't totally agree with that. I spent most of my childhood and up to middle teens in an all black neighborhood - am white. ALL my friends, except one at school, were black. I spent many hours in their homes with them and their families and they in mine. We were very close, and it is possible to have empathy and understanding for situations that don't fit you exactly - after all, no one is ever going to find anyone else in this world that has all the exact same experiences, ever.

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002


Any chance for a group hug and a change of subject? :)

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002

Earthmama,

In one of my posts above I said:

"I really feel that if you had not been personally hurt by the "topic" at CF, then you probably would have seen it for what it was."

I was referring to MY original post here at BTS - not other's posts at CF, I sure have a way of NOT making myself very clear :-).

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002


Joy,

Sorry, it was you that found the so called (by me) "missing" posts, not EM. Hey, and apologies to everyone for major thread drift here.

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002


I'm sorry Sherri; are we boring you?

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002

Hey Marcia--maybe we need to hang out at these other sites so we don't seem to walk into the middle of a discussion without knowing the beginning!

Do you think that CS really lost subscriptions by hosting the forum? I really never liked how they took forum answers and posted them in the magazine. I know that might be irrational, but I liked the articles written to be read and not just bits and pieces of discussions. I certainly expect that to stop since they will no longer be affiliated with the forum.

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002


No, bored has some negative connotations that I don't want to add into this discussion. Helpless, maybe.... from where I'm sitting it looks like the discussion has reached an impasse and that going over the same ground is just going to make the misunderstanding worse instead of better.

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002

" The Holy Spirit accepts people unconditionally. To the ego, this is an outrageous thought, because unconditional love is the death of the ego. How will people grow if we all go around just accepting each other as we are all the time? Accepting people as they are has the miraculous effect of helping them improve. Acceptance doesn’t prohibit growth; rather, it fosters it. "

--Marianne Williamson

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002


Wow, both Joel Rosen and Little Bit have posted over at Countryside. Talk about a blast from the past! I think this could get real interesting real fast. :)

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002

I was going to post on this thread (well, I guess that's not in the past tense anymore, now, is it?), but it kind of unravelled...

I've been eyeballing the situation over on CS with a whole lot of trepidation.

Back during the last great Winter Wars there, as some of you may recall, Joel went off in a major huff, promising never to return. (and I am really disappointed that he didn't maintain that promise.) At the time, I didn't really want to have my computer firebombed by whoever was responsible for all that ensued, so I spent some time privately emailing Ken about it. One of the things that he told me and a couple other people was that when Joel stated that he was cancelling his subscription and thirty gift subscriptions, that no such thing had happened -- Joel hadn't ever given any gift subscriptions.

I think perhaps a number of people who got their beaks bent out of shape went off in self-righteous dudgeon, proclaiming that they were going to cancel their subscriptions in a sort of econimical "SO THERE!" -- whether they had said subscription or not.

I have a friend in the publishing business who is in a very similar situation to the whole CS scene -- small, specialized interest group of people who don't shell out money. They are withering from lack of support, even though they are the only game in their industry. They regularly receive threats from 'subscribers' about how they will pull their subscriptions if things aren't changed according to their wishes -- since my friend is in charge of subscriptions, she has their data base ready to hand. She says that approximately 70% of those who threaten never subscribed in the first place. Perhaps not scientific, but interesting. She also says that their worst complainer is from a long-term felon who is apparently still serving his sentance with nothing better to do than harass someone else (as if he really needed a change in their format to better address his needs as a horse trainer -- what's he training inside prison?)

I myself rather suspect that Ken and Dave have just had ENOUGH of trying to please everyone in a room full of argumentive people, many of whom take delight in being bull-headed just to BE bull-headed, as my grandmother used to say. You can please some of the people some of the time, and you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time (to paraphrase). I think they're just sick and tired of the infantile behavior and it gives them a way to bow out as gracefully as is possible, under the circumstances. But that's just my opinion.

I've stopped having much to do with the CS site, because every time you point out to someone that in keeping their animals in squalid conditions is NOT condusive to their continued health, you get ridiculed as 'some PETA person' (used in about the same way that other groups say, oh, well, say 'Nigger Lover' and about as kindly). Pointing out to people that they are involved in something that is very dangerous and exposing themselves or others to maiming and/or death is never popular either -- you want to deprive them of a Wonderful Experience (or whatever) because you are a PETA person (intimating that you are stupid) and/or because you aren't 'Country' or 'Homestead' enough (passing their own judgement on your experiences or knowlege). Then ensues the obligatory denials of "I'm not a PETA person" or an attempt to prove that they are "Country enough". I've gotten VERY VERY tired of that.

And now we have the resurgance of Joel Rosen, whose parting threat/promise was to lay anyone from the Countryside group (including all the readers in quite generously) in a shallow grave after he'd shot them. (it was still in the archives, last time I looked) Sociopath/Psychopaths always worry me. I like to keep a very high concrete wall with razor wire between me and their cell, not correspond with them.



-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002


Wow, What a time to take a computer break! My eyeballs are burning from reading all the posts and my brain is swelling trying to make sense of it all. I guess we will all know soon enough what this change will bring about.

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002

Ouch, Vicki! Rest your weary eyes! But, no, I don't think we will soon see the outcome -- just one more chapter in the never ending soap opera! :-D

-- Anonymous, February 19, 2002

Julie, you have done it again, said just about everything there was to say about the hoopla happening at Countryside in a nut shell! You are so right girl :-)!!!

I remember that quaint bit that Joel said about all of us too, and I still think (although he denied it) he is suffering from the deleterious effects of nearing end stage type 2 diabetes, personally I think it is rotting his brain, much like untreated syphilis would, but perhaps I am just imagining that bit?

I am truly grateful again that we all have a safe place to "play" here, life is short, chose to avoid the sociopaths is a good mantra to remember!!!

-- Anonymous, February 20, 2002


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