Tribulation Discussiongreenspun.com : LUSENET : Freedom! self reliance : One Thread
I would like to discuss, with other Christians who believe or at least entertain the thought, that we will be here for the last days tribulation.
We have been hearing for at least 25 years that we are in the "last days," but when people discuss the Great Tribulation, they say "when it starts." It seems to me that it has started for a vast majority of the world already. I personally believe the Red Horse of the Apocalypse was set loose in the spring of 1994 when the Hutus begain the slaughter of Christian Watusis in Rwanda. Since then, we have experienced an increase of bizzarre mindless slaughtering of innocents.
One of the problems I see in the theories of men of how the last days will play out is men think in linear time which is an invention of man. I do not believe God operates on the clock of linear time. Some of these theories are so old and ingrained in the churches that we never stop and question them an check them against His word.
Another fast held theory that I question is the Mark of the Beast will be a financial microchip. Yes, Revelation 13:17 says no one will be able to buy and sell without this mark, but it is an assumption to believe it is a National ID and financial microchip. I believe that whatever the "mark" is, it has to be a serious abomination to the Lord if taking it is enough to keep us out of heaven!
Taking a microchip shopping AT THIS TIME is no more paying homage to the Beast as is using dollars is paying homage to Horace. And NO, I will not be accepting a microchip, I just believe it is a red herring. A microchip I can dig out with a pocketknife. A mandatory vaccine made from the remains of murdered babies cannot be removed so easily. Already Washington DC is threatening parents with jail if they do not submit their children to the MMR vaccine which is made from a murdered child. I can easily imagine not being allowed to market without proof of a current smallpox or other vaccine.
Remember, the mark is seal to identify those who belong to the beast. It is a counterfeit of the seal God will be placing on the foreheads of His own.
So what are the words that God is giving to you about the end times? What prophecies have you heard that are not status quo? What new understanding have you received of God's word?
-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@somewhere.net), February 18, 2002
I'm interested in your info on the MMR vaccine. I've never heard anything like this before. Where is this information coming from?
I also believe that we are in the last days. How long the last days will last, only God knows. But I do believe that we will be here to see.
-- mary (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 18, 2002.
For information on on vaccines from fetal tissue:
I read about Washington DC enforcing mandatory vaccines a couple of days ago at World Net Daily. I will search around later tonight for a link to the story.
-- Laura (Ladybugwrangler@hotmail.com), February 18, 2002.
The link to Mandatory MMR vaccine story at Washington Times
-- Laura (Ladybugwrangler@hotmail.com), February 18, 2002.
I believe MMR has been mandatory for public school attendence for a very long time. I trust my Lord much more than to think he would keep young Christian mothers out of heaven for having their children vaccinated.
-- diane (email@example.com), February 18, 2002.
I believe that the tribulation will begin after the rapture of the church. The rapture will be a time of great distress for those who are left behind. It is at this time that the anti-christ will rise to power. People will be looking for the one who will lead, the bible describes him as charasmatic and a good speaker. The tribulation will last 7 years, 3 1/2 years of prosperty( I believe that this is about the time that the temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem) and 3 1/2 years of hell on earth. The beast will require everyone to have a number, like you said, and those who refuse will be killed. During this period of time people will still be able to make a decision whether or not to follow God and accept Jesus at their savior or follow the beast. The books of Daniel, and Revelation are very interesting, check out the similarites. The rapture is talked about in 1 Thessolonians. After the 7 years of tribulation, Christ will return with His church and defeat the armies of the world who oppose God. The beast will be thrown into the lake of fire along with "death and hades". This is a very simple explanation of what I believe about the end times.
I know there are a lot of people out there who is going to blast my beliefs but, these are my beliefs. You have the right to believe as you wish. I have read the Bible and studied prophesy in depth.
Diane - You are right, God sees us through the blood of Christ if we believe in His atoning sacrifice for our sins. He would not keep mothers out of Heaven because of MMR shots. All this "chip" stuff is scary, but not if you belong to Jesus.
-- kathy (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 18, 2002.
You make an excellent point about the vaccine, Laura. If I may I would like to answer "What new understanding . . ."
I have heard cases made for and against the Rapture before the Tribulation and after it, what is commonly called the PreTrib and PostTrib position. Personally, nothing I read in the Bible made me feel very sure about the PreTrib position; mostly I felt there was something wrong about the notion of all these modern church people being spared any inconvenience while centuries of martyrs and persecuted believers had not. But most churches teach the PreTrib position and I never felt strongly enough one way or the other to argue with them.
Anyway,several years ago when the Left Behind series began I picked up the first two volumes on a Wal-Mart clearance table. By the time I finished the first book, I read the second just to see if it could possibly be as bad as the first. I was apalled. What four decades of preachers and religious writers had said about PreTrib came crashing down. Left Behind made me a hard core, dead set, positive, rock solid PostTribber overnight. The sense of how horrible the Left Behind books are and what a terrible fraud they are promoting has terrified me ever since.
Because I held no firmly decided position on this issue for so many years, I certainly don't condemn people who hold the PreTrib position. But, personally, I can no longer entertain it as a possibility. Now everything I read in the Scripture leads me to believe that the church will go through the Tribulation.
The strongest defender of the PostTrib position I had heard is James Lloyd of the Christian Media Network. His website is www.christianmediadaily.com . He can be heard weekdays on shortwave at 15.175 and at night (I think) on 9.335. James Lloyd has a horrible personality and his show is downright painful to listen to but his prophecy insights are fascinating.
Also Reverend Stair of the Overcomer Ministry now holds to the PostTrib position. Another convert to this position is Rev. Irwin Baxter of the radio show "Politics and Religion".
I hope this doesn't offend anyone. As I said, this is my opinion, it doesn't have to be yours. When someone firmly holds a position like Kathy states I don't feel any need to argue. Simply everyone must make up his or her own mind and do what he or she thinks is best.
-- Rags (Rags@nowhere.net), February 18, 2002.
I'm never sure about these things so I never read revelations. I am sure that you will get at least a 12 hour warning to the coming of God for the moon must turn to Blood and the entire planet will need to see it to fulfill the prophecy. ust my math working in conjunction with scripture.
-- Joel Rosen (JoelnBecky@webtv.net), February 19, 2002.
Before I get into this Tribulation post, (which by the way has always fascinated me) I want you all to know that I am not a Christian. Nor, am I attempting in any way to criticize Christians. I do howeveer, understand the nature of Laura's question and along with the rest of you want to give her as much advise and information that I understand to be true.
It is true (as far as the Holy Bible is concerned) that RAPTURE must take place first before the beginning of Tribulation commence. Rapture is mentioned in at least two places in the bible. It is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 and in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
I do not understand that Pre-Trib and Post-Trib post on this thread as there are so many "types" of Christians that many will not be takened up in the Rapture if they have not meet the qualifications that the Holy Bible has prescribed in various text in the New Testament. One in particular is mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32 as an unforgiveable sin. Even salvation would not be enough to be forgiven if one has spoke against the Holy Ghost. A few Christians that would not qualify for Rapture could fall into that catagory. Many whom believed they were SAVED and were not would fit into that catagory as well. But, there are a few that believe that you have to do a bit more than just accept Jesus as your personal savior. There are some that EXPECT that you "speak in tongues and perform miracules", as did Paul and Saul in the Upper Room. Those too, may or may not qualify for Rapture.
The best interpetation of the signs for end times is in Matthew 24:32-51, with the parable of the fig tree. Through out the bible the fig tree was representive of the state of Israel. Which "blossomed" in 1948 when it bacame a nation again! The scripture mentions that "this generation" would not pass until ALL these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away .....
In Matthew 24:36 Its states-But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Taken literally, this means we just do not know when it will all end but.... the previous scripture said, that "this generation" would not pass til ALL these things be fulfilled. So, how long is a generation?
In the book of Job it mentions that Job lived into four generations...140 years of age, Job 42:16. We can say that by this that a generation could be around 50-55 years give or take...am I right?
So, Israel became a state in 1948 and a generation according to scripture is roughly 50-55 years more or less. That would make the time to be around 1998-2003! Yes, according to scripture we are near the end times!
Back to Matthew 24, we see another mention of Rapture, starting with verse 40...Then shall two be in the field: the one shall be taken, and the other left.
So, if you believe the scripture in the Holy Bible ( I used the King James Version) then you will see that Rapture is the first step to the end times.
The Red Horseman that is mentioned in Revelation 6:4 has not really arrived as we still have a little peace in the world. The scripture says that he comes and takes peace from the Earth. What you are hearing is just little wars and rumours of wars. Those things are "fender benders" compared to what is going to happen if the scriptures hold true.
Finally, the micro chip implant! That is not mandatory yet and probably will not be until after Rapture! As long as there are plenty of Christians around to remind us that there is a "mark of a beast", I am sure that we will have nothing to worry about. An besides, the beast's reign is during the last half of the Tribulation, (42 months), according to Revelation 13:5. By then most of the Christians that were not taken up in Rapture will have been killed.
-- http://communities.msn.com/livingoffthelandintheozarks (email@example.com), February 19, 2002.
Be sure to indclude the book of Daniel in your study of prophecy. Also the other prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah etc.
-- Cindy (SE. IN) (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 19, 2002.
Well, bless my soul........Rags, you and I absolutely agree on something. I read the scripture over and over, trying to look with different eyes, and never completely am convinced of a pre-trib rapture. (and I also am distressed by this well acclaimed book series. IMHO it takes GREAT liberty with the Bible and I don't like it) Since, in the very end, my opinion or understand will matter little, I chose to live my life in such a way that I will be able to serve the Lord, not matter what happens.
-- diane (email@example.com), February 19, 2002.
I read the books, and I LIKE them! Of course they aren't scripture. I also have recently decided where I sit on the imminent second coming of Christ and for the first time in my Christian life I have peace of MIND about it. My heart knows it simply doesn't matter as regardless of the timing of the Lord's return we all must remain vigilant. I am not saying I know when He will return, but that I have finally figured out where I stand on it. No more wrestling around with scripture to try to make it fit, no more following someone who is supposedly so much better schooled, just read the Word!!!! Yeah!
Just for the record, I have determined that I believe Pre wrath which is not pre Trib. I have to say that I do wish it would be pre Trib, but that isn't what scripture (the preponderance of) says. But this is how we grow, through troubles and learning to lean more earnestly on God.
Laura, I do disagree about the micro chip. I think that is right on. Have you read about the brain chip that is developed and in trial?
-- Doreen (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 19, 2002.
Ernest (and others) if you want to study this issue in depth there is a website with tons of info at www.lasttrumpet.com
-- Rags (email@example.com), February 20, 2002.
I like those books too. Even though they may not be 'scripture' they're a very good read-esp book 8- and they give you lots to think about. So I guess they're serving their purpose.
-- Cindy (SE. IN) (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 20, 2002.
Ernest, for a non christian, you have a great grasp on scripture. Can you e-mail me privatly as to where you recieved it? I do agree with you. Also want to say I don't think there will be any Question WHEN the time comes, as to the fact that what people will be taking WILL be the mark of the beast. God would not allow it to be taken unaware, and damm people to hell. It WILL be a question of whether we take the easy way, or Gods way, which at that time will require myrterdom.
-- kathy boice (email@example.com), February 20, 2002.
"I would like to discuss, with other Christians who believe or at least entertain the thought, that we will be here for the last days tribulation"
AHA! Rags and Joel and Doreen understand what I am wishing to discuss!
Rags, when we read and study the Bible, the Holy Spirit sometimes shows us something in scripture we never saw before, even if we read the passage a hundred times before, this time we have a whole new understanding. It is part of our christian growth. Some Christians are very tuned in to what God's voice is saying to them and several people will hear the same message. None of these people are regualrs on TBN. I am interested in learning what God is teaching other folks out there about our end times. Thanks for the links, I was fishing for those also.
Doreen, the mark may very well be a microchip implant. I read something long time ago about microchips being implanted as part of a routine vaccination. It was in an experimental stage at the time it was published. I just have a feeling that whatever the "mark" is, it will be coming from the medical industry instead of politics. I just have to question the status quo belief. The whole world, even those who believe but do not follow Christ see a microchip implant as the mark of the beast. No one yet has told me WHY a microchip will be such an abomination to the Lord where the dollar bill isn't? Now a brain chip that alters our conscience is a different story!
Remember, when Jesus came the first time, the Jews had prophecy figured out to precise details about who He was, what He would look like, how He would present Himself and what He would do for them. Yet, they missed Him so completely and rejected Him because He did not fit the legalistic picture they insisted He must fit. Quite a lesson for all of us, no matter what side of the tribulation we stand on.
-- Laura (Ladybugwrangler@hotmail.com), February 20, 2002.
Laura: Are you serious about this statement? ". I am interested in learning what God is teaching other folks out there about our end times."
If you are I'll tell you about a life changing experience of my own.
BTW, nice post Ernest. Here's a little pre-Christian history to possibly fill in some blanks.
In mystical Judaism the Holy Spirit is called the shekinah. The shekinah is feminine in nature. The shekinah is said to reside in the planet of Venus which has LONG been associated with love. I can only conclude that the Holy Spirit IS love, the love that manifests itself as nurturing and caring.
-- john (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 20, 2002.
Laura, here are a few things that have recently been made clear to me regarding the Last Days and where we are in them.
Regarding the Church Age, fully Laodicean, as is well evidenced by John. However, within the Church Age all of the churches have specific characteristics and they exist independently of the actual historical time frame we are in. The predominant characterisic of each of the seven churces covers the chronological span of that Age, but each type of church has and does continue to exist. It's kind of hard to put into words, so let me know if you need more clarification on that.
The fact that we are in that particular age also lends itself to a number of other observations that fulfill scripture.Itching ears and all. I believe that the veil is descending and people are becoming unable to see the truth. This isn't something that is a really new realization for me, tho.
Regarding why a microchip is more repugnant to God than an illuminati occultic dollar bill, it is because a microchip is not something you can put down and walk away from. It is also an indication of where your heart stands in relation to God and the provisions He makes for us. You are putting your trust in manmade systems and identifying yourself fully with that system. People have said that the microchip can be extracted. I am not certain of that. It is the size of a small grain of rice. There are a number of different types, but the one propsed by Digital Angel (see some special ramifications there?) are radio frequency chips which not only can contain all of your financial and medical info, but your location and all of your physical stas as well. Whether you are sleeping,, sitting, standing, exercising, what have you. This is awfully reminiscent of someone with a huge desire to be omnipotent, but lacking the capability and using technology to come closer to that end.
I need some coffee yet, so that's it for now! Also, I wanted to say that as I see it, Diane does get it, and Cindy is absolutely right that we need to look at all prophetic scripture.
-- Doreen (email@example.com), February 21, 2002.
Laura, I am fairly impressed with your understanding. The following URL contains a table; please take a moment to review it. I am certain that your Creator is very well aware of your efforts.
-- Kevin (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 21, 2002.
I am sorry, here it is: http://www.watchtower.org/library/jt/index.htm
-- Kevin (email@example.com), February 21, 2002.
Here's an even better one! http://www.watchtower.org/library/dg/article_09.htm
-- Kevin (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 21, 2002.
This is pure speculation on my part, and may not be correct, but this is my interpretation.
The "Mark of the Beast" may not be a mark of the physical sort (such as a microchip), but may actually be a mindset, or way of thinking. I vaguely remember reading a passage that said that the mark will be planted in our foreheads and our right-hands. How can a mindset be implanted in the hands and forehead? Sounds pretty non-sensical.
However, it DOES make sense when interpreted allegorically. What this passage means that this attitude, mindset, way-of-thinking, etc.. manifests itself in a person's thoughts (forehead) and actions (hands).
What the Mark actually is, according to MY interpretation, is the selfish, self-centered, "me first" attitude that seems to be so prevalent in America today.
Regarding the passage that goes to the tune of "those without the mark cannot buy nor sell.". Well, take a look for yourself. The people that DON'T subscribe to the "me first" attitude are being, even as we speak, economically marginalized, which is fancy way of saying being rendered unable to buy or sell. Of course, one is NOT going to be able to buy when he/she has no money, nor can one sell when he/she has no assets TO sell.
In a nutshell, what this means is that the selfish folks (the ones with the Mark) with be able to conduct business while the people without the Mark will not be able to buy or sell, simple due to the fact that they'll have no money with which to buy and NOTHING to sell.
Well, that's MY take on the matter. If I'm wrong, then may the Lord correct me but until then, this is the best I can do.
-- Nexar (Arax7@mvn.net), February 23, 2002.
So Nexar, if the mark of the beast is a the spiritual of me, myself and I, then many already have the mark and we are already in the throes of the Tribulation? Dave Wilkerson has also expressed his belief that the mark may be spiritual through thought and action, but it was his personal belief and not a Word from God.
Rags, thank you so much for those links. We am still exploring James Lloyd and we can listen to shortwave via the computer. Lots of good stuff!
We Americans have a bad habit of only thinking in terms of how the Word of God applies to America. But if we look around the world, we see whole new levels of coruption and sin, not only with government leaders, but the people as well. This Planet X thing got me to thinking how God is no repecter of persons of title or prestige or property lines. Perhaps politics will be playing a much smaller part than we currently believe.
For those who believe we will go through the tribulation, but that it has not started yet, what event are you looking for that will start the trib in motion?
-- Laura (Ladybugwrangler@hotmail.com), February 23, 2002.
-- Rags (email@example.com), February 24, 2002.
I agree with Rags.
I think maybe we should claify some terms to give folks who are lurking and may not be familar with some of the different ideas regarding the tribulation a kind of guide. Please correct me if you think I mistate any of these things....
There are three basic teachings on the catching away of the Church (the Bride of Christ), these positions are:
1) Pre Tribulation, which teaches that the Church will be Raptured prior to the start of the judgements of the book of Revelation (and Daniel in some cases)- This is the position taken in the popular novel series called Left Behind
2) Mid Tribulation, which states that the Church will go through the first of the judgements but be kept from the pouring out of the Wrath of God which is to take place in the second half of the tribulation or the Great Tribulation
3) Post Tribulation which teaches that the Church will be caught up immediately preceeding the actual return of Christ that will take place at the end of the entire Tribulation. The return of Christ will be the War when man actually tries to do physical battle with God Almighty. Literally everyone will KNOW this is God Almighty, but they will want to fight against Him anyway.
I hope that someone may find this helpful. There is NO doubt in any of these three positions that the Lord will call His people and catch them physically away prior to His return. It's just a matter of when that folks differ on.
-- Doreen (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 24, 2002.
"So Nexar, if the mark of the beast is a the spiritual of me, myself and I, then many already have the mark and we are already in the throes of the Tribulation?"
Not yet, but verrrry soon. While we are sitting here in our sheltered corner of the globe, the Four Horseman are already afoot in portions of Africa and Asia. Famine, wars, and other disasters are increasing in magnitude and frequency. It could be only a matter of time until they visit our communities. Did the Word mention WHEN the Mark would be received? If it was DURING the Tribulation and the Reign of the Beast, then it's likely that's I'm wrong, but if it's BEFORE the Tribulation, then my interpretation of the Word could well be the case.
At any rate, regardless of whether it's the Mark or not, it is true that selfishness and greed has inflicted (and continues to do so) untold grief and misery on humankind. I watch the happenings of the world around me and sense that things are rushing toward a climax. That climax could well be the Tribulation.
As for the Beast, I say it's the social, economic, and political system upheld and powered by the people with the Mark, NOT a speoific man or devil (almost doubtless though that Satan is whispering into the ears of the ones that run the system). The reign of the Beast is close however, very close.
"Dave Wilkerson has also expressed his belief that the mark may be spiritual through thought and action, but it was his personal belief and not a Word from God."
What I stated is not the Word of God neither, but rather an interpretation of The Word as I understood it after reading it. I expressly said that I could be wrong. For the record, I'm not going to take any mandatory chip implants either, just in case....
-- Nexar (Arax7@mvn.net), February 25, 2002.
Νή ΗΡ νΗΡ
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