Andrea Yates trial, Just some thoughts

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The trial of Andrea Yates is going on here in texas, And I want to say [I DO NOT CONDONE WHAT SHE HAS DONE IN ANY WAY] But just some thoughts I have had. Here is a women with five children, A stay at home mom, Home schooling, Who with each child has had post pardom depression. Trying to be the perfect mom. I wonder why we don"t hear something about dad? Was he supportive, or did he come home, and say were"s my supper and what did you do all day? I knew a family were the husband put on a white glove when he got home and God help her if he found a speck of dust. Also whereis the support system we use to have, Grandmoms, uncles, aunts, liveing close by to help young moms.Every one is scattered all over the country. How many moms are out there, frazzled, crying behind close doors, nothing but child talk,And the ones who work, and come home, and have to cook,clean etc etc. If we were a fly on the wall in Andrea Yates house, I wonder what it would have to say.How tired was she, Had she had baby sitters so she could go shopping, or a movie, some alone time. Why didn"t her husband see what was happening to her, And stop haveing children. He went off to work, and had adult talk, and lunches with friends,Well everyone, I don"t know if Andrea is insane, At the time, maybe so. But what ever, I think we need more mothers day out. Thank God for the ones we do have in the churches. And we should try to be more aware of what is happening to young moms, Especially the ones who are so tired looking. Well I quess this is all for now, God Bless

-- Irene texas (tkorsborn@cs.com), February 20, 2002

Answers

Irene--I knew a lady who had a ministry visiting at home moms. She convinced her church to pay for her gas. She remembered being so alone, so stressed when her kids were small and her husband travelled for work that she wanted to reach out to stay at home moms. God bless her! When she visited, she was like a grandma--talking, helping with the dishes, playing with the kids,whatever. Talk about walking in your faith....

-- Ann Markson (tngreenacres@hotmail.com), February 20, 2002.

Oh how my heart aches for that woman! To have to live with what she did must be Hell on earth! Irene, you voiced so many of my thoughts that it is amazing! For goodness sakes, couldn't that husband use some common sense and self control? I can only imagine the thoughts that went through her head while she suffered all the loneliness and depression. I guess we all know where the children are and we can only pray for the mother.

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), February 20, 2002.

She could have used birth control and not told her husband, women do this all the time. She could even have gotten her tubes tied--most plans cover this and it is cheaper if you do it after giving birth. Again, she wouldn't have had to tell him. She also could have LEFT if things were that bad, which of course is awful, but the children would still be alive. If she felt overwhelmed by things, she could have called any one of a number of hotlines, or any church.

I'm sure postpartum depression had a part in this, but only a part. Her husband may have been a jerk, but she could have left and taken the kids, gotten child support and daycare money, etc. God gave women brains too, and I don't think He meant for them to live in bad situations.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 20, 2002.


She has brains and maybe could have used them better, but to have a tubal behind her husband's back? I don't think so. How would you do that? I don't know the whole story, could someone fill in some of the details, please. Were they in an abusive relationship? Was there a history of mental illness? Why does she say she did this?

-- Cindy (SE. IN) (atilrthehony@hotmail.com), February 20, 2002.

Men could get fixed without their wives knowing it, too. If you're home all day and you get the mail, he/she wouldn't know. And what happens when he finds out? You can't make him get it reversed, nor can he make you get it reversed. Every day there are people who get seriously ill and their spouses are kept in the dark, by the ill person's choice, so it would not be impossible.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 20, 2002.


This is just my opinion now. I would have NEVER thought of doing something as personal without my DH knowing about it! When I met DH, I knew that I couldn't have any more children and I told him so on our first date. No deceptions, no lies. Everything was up front. I have no idea what the Yates relationship was...and do I want to know? The woman was suffering from depression! Depression makes a person incapable of making good decisions. If I remember it correctly, it is so painful that a person will do anyting to stop the hurting.

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), February 20, 2002.

I've never had postpartem(sp) depression before and have no idea what that does to the mind. However, that does not negate the fact that she murdered 5 helpless children. America has degraded itself by allowing defense attorney's throughout the land to use their silver- forked tongues and high level educations to find outlandish defenses for criminals all for the almighyt dollar. Whats more, American juries and judges because of their own sin are more than willing to accept these defenses. Everything from PMS to Twinkies, yes twinkies (type "twinkie defense" in a search bar it was actually used as a defense once). There is but one word to describe Mrs. Yates action SIN. I don't pretend to know what stressors existed in the Yates home prior to the murder, but there exist none which would be sufficient to allow what she did. I did see an interview with the husband and other family members who professed the whole family to be born again God fearing people. If Mrs. Yates had only called on her savior (assuming she is saved) this would not have happened. People, yes even Christians, forget all the time that God says his grace is sufficient in all things. He is an ever present help in time of need, a resting place. Mrs, Yates should and hopefully will pay for her acts however the jury and judge see fit. Including death by lethal injection as is prevelant here in our state. Those reading this who know the one true God should be in prayer for her and her family. The 5 precious earthly lives are gone but they are with the Father. Mr. and Mrs. Yates are terribly damaged, but God can restore them through his sone Jesus. There is no point in trying to find reasons why Mrs. Yates did what she did or lay blame on any aggravating or mitigating circumstances. The answer again is SIN. Sin has been overcome through the blood of Jesus at Calvary therefore even Mrs. Yates may someday come unto her fathers prescence. Thankyou Jesus that even murderers can know you.

Respectfully,

PoePoe

-- PoePoe (rpd932@yahoo.com), February 20, 2002.


I don't know what the laws are in Texas, but in Indiana a married woman has to get her husband's permission before getting a tubal ligation.

-- Sherri C (CeltiaSkye@aol.com), February 20, 2002.

Sherrie, that works both ways here. Before my vasectomy I had to present a "permission slip" from my wife. Heck, I thought I was going on a field trip. ;o)

-- Gary in Indiana (gk6854@aol.com), February 20, 2002.

What could he do to you? He could beat you to a pulp. Have you ever been beaten? Don't think that's a good idea. Besides marriage isn't about sneaking behind your spouse's back. There are better ways.

-- Cindy (SE. IN) (atilrthehony@hotmail.com), February 20, 2002.


I guess what I'm trying to say is that you don't have to be in a bad situation if you don't want to, and that also goes for domestic violence. There are always self-defense classes to take as well, but if you even suspect a possibility of domestic violence, just leave. Better no spouse than a bad one.

I cringe when I hear people (not here, but in other places) say they put up with abuse, domineering spouses, etc. in the name of religion. That is wrong, whether you are the male or the female in the relationship.

Maybe the authorities (or those filing civil lawsuits) will eventually get the husband on a charge of child endangerment or negligence or something along those lines, but that would probably be a "best case" scenario.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), February 20, 2002.


Remember not to judge any one until you've walked a mile in their shoes!

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), February 20, 2002.

I want to say that this is a terrible tragedy and no, I don't know all that went on. However, depression and especially some forms of post partum depression are extreamly serious conditions in which the person does not know what they are doing. Yes, it was Mrs. Yates action, but if she had had this before, why was she not being treated? I think a lot of people are responsable for this-yes, husband must take his share of the blame, as do other family members, their church, and whatever doctor she was seeing. From what Little I've heard, I beleave this was a serious case of ppd, not merely a "twinkie defence" I believe she needed help and didn't get it. As for leaving an abusive relationship-its very difficult. I echo the "don't judge until you've walked in thier footsteps" feeling. Its way too easy to sit back and say, she should do this or that. If you have been physically or emotionally abused(and I think emotional abuse is every bit as bad as physical abuse) you are likely to be incapable of walking away from it.

-- Kelly (KY) (homearts2002@yahoo.com), February 20, 2002.

Maybe I'm really missing something, but in my mind there is no excuse for what this lady has done. First in society it's, "I burned my leg because the coffee was too hot", not my fault, sue McDonalds. Let's not stop at that, kill 5 innocent children and not claim fault. I cannot buy it. If she was so depressed, why didn't she kill herself? I cannot imagine the horror those children felt before they died. Is there such sympathy for a man who is a mass murderer and claims to be mentally imbalanced? 5 precious children died. 5!!!!

-- Annie (mistletoe6@earthlink.net), February 21, 2002.

What you say is true Annie, but having dealt extensively with the mental health profession with a relative, getting help isn't all that easy. It is unbelievable, the hoops you must jump through, the arguing, pleading, begging, the agony.

I pray that none of you have to find out first-hand what I am talking about.

Mrs. Yates was under professional care, but was relaesed by the doctor too soon. Which is typical. When she was well, she probably thought she could handle another child. Her husband and family have stuck by her even to this day, which I think speaks volumes about what kind of person she really is.

Of course what she did is very wrong. Of course she was insane, I don't think "normal" people kill anyone. So in a sense all murderers are somewhat insane. That does not excuse what she did, and she will have to pay for her wrong-doing.

But we must remember that God does not see what we see. He is able to look into one's heart, and judge from there. You know that Jesus wept when he was on this Earth, and I imagine when God looks down on us, he has those same feelings of love and compassion.

This was a very mixed up woman. She suffered form mental illness which is no different than suffering from cancer. You can't "snap out of it" you can't "think happy thoughts" and cure yourself, it is a horrible, awful sickness.

Again I hope that NONE of you ever know what it is really like.

-- Melissa in SE Ohio (me@home.net), February 21, 2002.



Well said Melissa. unfortunately, some of us already know what it's really like.

-- Cindy (SE. IN) (atilrthehony@hotmail.com), February 21, 2002.

Depression is a terrible illness. As I understand it (in an overly simplified explanation) there are 2 main types of depression. One is usually brought on more or less by being temporarily overwhelmed and not dealing with it. Working too many hours, going through a death or divorce, etc. This is usually a short-lived version and once the situation resolves itself or the person takes some steps to change things, the depression usually goes away.

Far different than the other type of depression, which can be brought on by a number of different causes, such as hormone changes, chemical imbalances, etc. I never suffered from post-partem depression, and all my life was a strong type person who always managed to handle any situation. So when I found myself suffering from major depression I was convinced I could deal with it alone. I had the typical "this is ridiculous, it's all in your head, you can snap out of it" attitude. I am lucky to still be here. This sort of depression is totally overwhelming, clouds all your thinking and renders you nearly incapable of making rational decisions. As a Christian, I felt I should not have to use professional help or medications to manage what was an "emotional" issue. Well meaning but uninformed friends are often worse than no help at all. I saw others who suffered from the same problem berated by fellow Christians for "sinning" when they should be trusting God and looking to him for answers, so I wasn't going to go there. That attitude made me feel even more guilty to not be able to handle my own problems. The worst part was, I DIDN'T HAVE ANY PROBLEMS!

Everything in my life was going just fine, there was no reason to be depressed, yet I could find myself sitting on the couch laughing at something my dh said, and crying at the same time! That is the terrible part of this illness, you cannot see that something is wrong with you. My poor dh would ask me what was the matter and I'd tell him, "Nothing at all." (So, why was I crying? Duh!) Fortunately he works in the medical profession and it didn't take him long to realize what was going on and INSIST I get help. That was one of the hardest things I have ever done. During the first visit, I told the doctor HE was crazy if he thought I was depressed, and walked out. It took me many months before I realized he was right and went back. I thank God for looking after me during that dark time. That is exactly what it was too, like a dark cloud and oppressive weights hanging over me that I could not break free of.

I went on medication for a number of years. Lately, my body seems to have corrected some of it's problems and I have been able to function well on a very tiny dose. However, if things change again, I will not hesitate to go back to the higher dose. One of my daughters is a diabetic, she needs medication to survive. True depression is an illness that needs medication also.

It's a tragedy when people like Andrea Yates don't get the help they need. They are NOT capable of understanding the need for help. I cannot blame her husband either, untrained people just cannot realize the depths of despair depressed people are going through, and like me, the depressed person will probably insist there's nothing wrong. Not even the doctor is fully to blame here, they cannot see inside someone else's head. Although he should have realized the potential problems.

I don't have much sympathy for child abusers, the parents who abandon or even kill their children to take off with some honey, or those who blame all their actions on how they were raised or on some "disease". It seems nowadays there is always some reason the guilty party is not to blame. But, in this particular case, I believe this was truly a tragedy and my heart bleeds for the children, Mrs. Yates, her husband and the entire family. I believe the woman truly was mentally incompetent. One of my friends made several attempts to take her own life before she got help. Another friend's mother committed suicide. Still another friend lost their only son to suicide. It is too late to help the Yates children or their mother, but like Irene and Cathy N. have suggested, look around you! Become aware of the symptoms of depression and reach out a helping hand where you see one is needed. A young neighbor of mine mentioned the other day that she hadn't had a break from her two pre-schoolers since last November. I think I'll offer her a day off.

-- Lenette (kigervixen@webtv.net), February 21, 2002.


Go for it, Lenette!

-- Cathy N. (homekeeper86@sympatico.ca), February 21, 2002.

I may be about to step on some toes here -- but I feel very strongly about what this woman has done.

Mental illness is not something that people choose to have -- but they do choose to use it as an excuse. Regularly. This woman didn't kill a child -- she didn't kill two. She killed FIVE. I am very sorry, but I have dealt with depression and post-partum most of my life -- and if she didn't get any help, she was no kind of mother -- and her husband was no kind of father. You don't suddenly snap one day with NO PREVIOUS SIGN OF A PROBLEM and KILL FIVE CHILDREN!

And if she was any kind of mother, she'd be asking the courts to do their worst and sentence her to the death penalty. She shouldn't be ABLE to live with herself after what she's done.

Suggestions have been made that Ted Bundy, even Berkowitz -- were insane. Do we extend the hand of understanding to them? Should Bundy have been spared? The fact that this woman is a mother and isolated from the community should make her crime count for less? Those children are still dead. She could have MADE a choice to be more involved, she could have gotten out, even to the local park for an afternoon a week and spoken to other mothers. She could have called a depression help line. She could have picked up the phone and called a neighbor, relative, THE POLICE and said she was having bad thoughts. Depression comes in stages. Long before she had the thought of drowning her children she would have been aware of unhappiness with her lot in life. Even if it weren't obvious at the beginning, it would have become obvious long before the murders. Her husband is equally at fault for not protecting those babies.

I ask that those of us here who are stay at home moms, even homeschoolers, stop relating this woman's experience to ours and assuming that the problem was one we have all experienced: that of depression and isolation. The women I have met here, and the men too, are -- IMHO -- far different from the type of person who does something like this. This woman is nothing like any of the people on this board.

As a Canadian I stand against the death penalty. Capital punishment has not been a part of the Canadian justice system since, I believe, 1962. I believe that people are wrongfully convicted and I do not support the belief that the few "mistakes" are worth the disposal of the rest of the garbage who truly deserve to die.

However, I am a mother. I am a mother of two precious children and a third who is in heaven waiting for me. I will never be able to condone what this woman has done ON ANY LEVEL. There is no forgiveness in my heart for a woman who EXTERMINATES children as though they were unwanted kittens. Children are a precious gift, and there is no excuse good enough for their killing. EVER.

Thank you for letting me have my rant.

-- Tracy (trimmer31@hotmail.com), February 21, 2002.


I understand fully what you are saying Tracy, it seems almost unimaginble to me that someone can so something like this. I read an article about Mrs. Yates in guideposts magazine that detailed her case and this family looked for help for several years,and she had been released from care, with everyone assuming she was "better". Evidently she wasn't.

Also some of the comments she made seem to indicate to me that she still isn't any better yet. When she went for indictment, she was overheard asking her lawyer what kind of outcome they were hoping for??? I am not quoting it exactly, but from what I understood it seemed like she had no idea what was even going on. She also did confess to what she did, and from what I read seems resigned.

I just hope that this case can help any other person who is even contemplating such a thing to get help quickly. I have never understood people who harm children or commit suicide or any of these types of self-injuries. She will have to pay the price for her actions, but I do still have compassion for her, how she must grieve and her family too. It is beyond comprehension to me...

-- Melissa in SE Ohio (me@home.net), February 21, 2002.


Tracy,

If you knew me, you'd know I am one of the most adamant voices there is regarding consequences for actions, strong punishment for crime, 3 strikes laws, etc. I have very strong feelings about this and believe many of the problems our society is facing result from lack of consequences, starting with the many parents who don't parent (and then bail their kids out of every mess), to the highest courts which offer a slap on the wrist for the most heinous crimes. I can feel my bp rising now, so I'd better not even go there.

Anyway, you are correct that there seems to be an excuse for everything anyone does nowadays, it never is anyone's "fault". (Ha!) And of course mental illness is the obvious excuse because it's so hard to prove one way or the other, and you can always find or buy an expert who will testify the way you want. But from personal experience with severe depression, I know that it is a very severe, very strange illness, cannot be controlled by your will, medications don't always work, etc. I personally have never, at my worst moments, ever wanted to harm another human being much less my own family, but the thought patterns I had scared me as I certainly thought almost continually about harming myself. The emotional pain is so severe you will do anything to stop it. At the same time, I couldn't accept that I was "depressed". Like I said earlier, your thinking is not at all rational.

I don't know about Andrea Yates. I cannot comprehend how anyone can harm their own kids. This kind of crime is totally beyond me, so I haven't even been following the news. All I can say is this is one woman who MAY have honestly not been responsible for her actions. She may be a conniving murderer. I don't know. I do know this is one jury I would not want to be on. Hopefully the truth will come out during the trial. If she did unfeelingly murder them I'm afraid I would hope for the death penalty for her. If she was truly mentally incompetent, I don't know what should be done with her. Certainly do something to prevent her from ever having any more kids or being around other children!

And I know if I can give my neighbor a break from her kids now and then, I will. Not because I'm afraid she'd ever hurt them but because Jesus tells us to love your neighbor as yourself. (And if those were my kids, I'd have long ago needed a break! heeheehee)

-- Lenette (kigervixen@webtv.net), February 21, 2002.


Lenette -- I agree with you and Melissa and others -- I agree that even Moms need breaks, and I even agree that that goes highly unrecognized in our society that doesn't value the job that a stay at home mom does. However, I do feel that if the insanity plea for rejected a bit more often, it would be used a LOT less often. It's been used as a get-out-of-jail-free card for so long, people have come to believe that they don't HAVE to be responsible for their actions.

What I am saying is that, just because this woman LOOKS like she might not understand what she did, is that any reason for us to believe her, simply because we understand as mothers the stresses of motherhood? The motivation behind it doesn't change the fact of the crime. In a world where a teenager who is convicted of first degree murder and imprisoned for life for killing the stepfather who raped her repeatedly over a ten year period, I find it hard to stomach that this woman might get away with this most heinous of crimes by claiming that she didn't know what she was doing.

In my humble opinion, as a mother you make a contract with things more powerful than yourself. You are bound by nature, God, Yahweh, whatever you choose to call it, to protect the little beings that come into your care. If you break that contract, and harm those children, there is no excuse. Everyone makes choices. She made choices to keep having babies when the strain became too much. The father made a choice that morning to go to work and leave those innocents in the care of a woman with a history of mental illness, worse yet, mental illness that had been recognized as a possible harm to herself and others. Her words to her husband when she called him at work were "I finally did it." He knew exactly what she meant.

My anger at this situation is spilling over, and I know that. I apologise if I seem a bit short-tempered. Right now, I am. We have prayed for more children, and cannot have them. To see someone who is so truly blessed as to have five beautiful babies throw them away hurts me a great deal.

-- Tracy (trimmer31@hotmail.com), February 21, 2002.


I agree Tracy, it is just a senseless, awful crime. I know so many people who would love to have children and can't. It just isn't understandable to me either.

-- Melissa in SE Ohio (me@home.net), February 21, 2002.

I was in Texas when these children were murdered, and after hearing so much local coverage immediately following I have made a point to keep up with the story to see how it unfolds. From what I have read (caveat here, as most of the reports have been biased, and obviously I am not a mental health professional), there is no doubt in my mind that Andrea Yates did suffer enormously from PPP. She should NEVER have had that last child, and her husband should have made sure that she did not become pregnant again. He has been qouted many times as having said that they made a decision to have whatever children God sent them. It "appears" that Andrea Yates went along with her husband's decision because that is what HE wanted, and as a dutiful Christian wife she felt compelled to submit to his wishes in that regard. Also, I wonder, if the family was so convinced that she was too ill to be taken off the medication, why in the world did they not seek another opinion? And why would they have left her alone with those kids? I think that, although what she did was deplorable, Andrea Yates is as much a victim as were her children. And for those who have thankfully never had the experience of suffering from depression I can tell you this- the human brain will do whatever it can do to ensure survival. You see this all the time with people who have been exposed to abuse, trauma, etc. The most basic survival technique is simply denial, or repression, of memories of events which are too horrific for the mind to cope with. In other instances, where a person finds themselves in a situation with which they are unable to cope, the mind will seek out a solution which will ensure survival. Obviously this doesn't always happen, or there would be no suicides, but it happens often enough, and this may be one of those instances. It is impossible to know what was going through Yates' mind at the time, but the possibility absolutely exists that she did not make a conscious decision to murder her own kids. But, regardless, there seems to have been plenty of evidence that she was suffering from some type of mental dysfunction, and how other, allegedly sane, responsible people could have ignored the situation is beyond me. My heart bleeds for those babies, but I am not too quick to condemn Andrea Yates for what happened. Rusty Yates was more than willing to leave the matter of birth control up to his God and live with the consequences of pregnancies and a mentally ill wife, and now I hope that he is just as willing to live with the consequences of his children's deaths. It is nice to see that he is standing by his wife during this horrible time.

I think Cathy has made the best suggestion as far as how we can all try to help ensure that a similar tragedy does not befall another family. Thanks for sharing your idea, and I hope that each of us will remember it the next time we see an over-burdened friend, neighbor, or relative.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), February 21, 2002.


Nicely said, Elizabeth. I would hope that everyone is capable of learning from other peoples experiences, and I for one intend to be more aware of the situations around me with friends, neighbors and family. I would hope that I would have the good sense to be able to recognize a friend in need.

I still cannot comprehend, however, this woman getting away with this deplorable crime, spending a few years in a mental institution and then being declared "cured". As far as I am concerned, she and her husband should both be locked away for a good long time, at the very least.

-- Tracy (trimmer31@hotmail.com), February 22, 2002.


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